| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Afromania |
Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 00:21:22
Anyone who knows Drizzt's level specifics?
I know it's rude to run in and ask like that but I'm utterly curious :P |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sandro |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 18:57:28
quote:
As for the ToT novels... the depiction of the gods in the 'Avatar' trilogy is mostly literary licence: it doesn't match the deities as conceived elsewhere in Realmslore and shouldn't be taken as definitive of them.
Aye, especially the last two, which both work in similar ways and yet have many gods acting completely differently from novel to novel.
I must say, they still make a good read, though. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 16:34:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
The Realms is very different than many other fantasy worlds, where the gods and goddesses take a very active hand in their followers lives when they want to.
Well, you need to include a "may" in there. Sometimes some seem to be quite active, while others (many) do not bother at all. IMHO, much of the former is due to the "unnecessary" series of the Times of Troubles era, when someone at TSR/WotC needed to have the gods behave like those of Greek mythology. IMHO a bad idea. In any case, only a few deities became directly involved for a greater length of time, other made a single appearance here and there throughout the 30.000 years of FR history. So ... essentially, much of the involvement of deities within Realmspace was due to some novel-authors and their stories, while in general, the 150odd deities are hardly that much involved. Of course, due to the stories, those who are involved have the ability to change much for the Realms. Else those novels wouldn't sell, of course.
I think the degree of involvement is what's key to this discussion. Per both Ed and the 2e godbooks, we know that deities are involved and do interact with their worshippers. On the other hand, it's not a case of putting in routine personal appearances, or popping in to smash foes with divine wrath and thunder. It's more a thing of sending small manifestations -- a little sound or odd physical happenstance, to show favor or disfavor. So a devout follower trapped in a bad situation can't expect the deity to show up to rescue them, but them suddenly seeing a flash of light that illuminates the way out is not at all out of the question.
Ed and most of the other designers have been careful not to lay down the exact parameters of what gods are 'allowed' to do, because it's a matter unknown and fundamentally unknowable to mortals, and something that players shouldn't be second guessing.
Also, it's important to note that Realms folk are generally aware of 'the gods' as unknowable agents of fate who move behind visible events -- part of the way of things, not interference from without.
As for the ToT novels... the depiction of the gods in the 'Avatar' trilogy is mostly literary licence: it doesn't match the deities as conceived elsewhere in Realmslore and shouldn't be taken as definitive of them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 14:17:43
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
The Realms is very different than many other fantasy worlds, where the gods and goddesses take a very active hand in their followers lives when they want to.
Well, you need to include a "may" in there. Sometimes some seem to be quite active, while others (many) do not bother at all. IMHO, much of the former is due to the "unnecessary" series of the Times of Troubles era, when someone at TSR/WotC needed to have the gods behave like those of Greek mythology. IMHO a bad idea. In any case, only a few deities became directly involved for a greater length of time, other made a single appearance here and there throughout the 30.000 years of FR history. So ... essentially, much of the involvement of deities within Realmspace was due to some novel-authors and their stories, while in general, the 150odd deities are hardly that much involved. Of course, due to the stories, those who are involved have the ability to change much for the Realms. Else those novels wouldn't sell, of course.
I think the degree of involvement is what's key to this discussion. Per both Ed and the 2e godbooks, we know that deities are involved and do interact with their worshippers. On the other hand, it's not a case of putting in routine personal appearances, or popping in to smash foes with divine wrath and thunder. It's more a thing of sending small manifestations -- a little sound or odd physical happenstance, to show favor or disfavor. So a devout follower trapped in a bad situation can't expect the deity to show up to rescue them, but them suddenly seeing a flash of light that illuminates the way out is not at all out of the question. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 10:23:09
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
The Realms is very different than many other fantasy worlds, where the gods and goddesses take a very active hand in their followers lives when they want to.
Well, you need to include a "may" in there. Sometimes some seem to be quite active, while others (many) do not bother at all. IMHO, much of the former is due to the "unnecessary" series of the Times of Troubles era, when someone at TSR/WotC needed to have the gods behave like those of Greek mythology. IMHO a bad idea. In any case, only a few deities became directly involved for a greater length of time, other made a single appearance here and there throughout the 30.000 years of FR history. So ... essentially, much of the involvement of deities within Realmspace was due to some novel-authors and their stories, while in general, the 150odd deities are hardly that much involved. Of course, due to the stories, those who are involved have the ability to change much for the Realms. Else those novels wouldn't sell, of course. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 23:03:32
The Realms is very different than many other fantasy worlds, where the gods and goddesses take a very active hand in their followers lives when they want to. |
| Afromania |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 22:51:03
Praying to get help that actually works is not what EVERYONE do in the realms, certainly?
Many pray, rarely do they get real help.
Elminster being mysterious is one thing, discussing in those books about the 'tip of the iceberg" of those mysteries is what annoys me. Mentioning things carelessly without giving any explanation to the reader. But, it's probably just me. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 21:56:57
quote:
Originally posted by Afromania
Do I really have to learn everything about Elminster BEFORE i read his past?
Not at all, but bear in mind the publishing history: Ed uses Elminster as sage-narrator in Dragon articles, readers get intrigued and ask about him, TSR asks for an origin novel, Ed writes it, it sells well, TSR asks for more novels and turns him into an 'iconic character'. The books don't aim to tell his whole thousand-plus-year life, which would be almost impossible, they're basically stand-alone novels meant to work on their own merits. No one knows his whole life history, maybe not even Ed. I like to enjoy both the mystery and the little glimpses we get of this fundamentally behind-the-scenes character.quote:
I still enjoy the books, wouldn't bother asking all these questions otherwise, I'm just left with twice as much questions as answers after every chapter.
This is a world-building method: Realms writing that answers more questions than it raises is bad Realmslore because it entropically uses up the Realms and its potential, rather than building it. Mystra is not the Lady of Mysteries in name only: I don't ever want to see things like the workings of silver fire and spellfire laid bare.quote:
why the **** is Elminster chosen and not some actually capable wizard that doesn't rely on his god?
Ultimately, for his compassion. The 'crying to his gods all day' you mentioned is praying. Everyone in the Realms does it except a handful of sociopathic madmen. |
| Afromania |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 15:23:04
Aye i agree, this forum IS amazing, somewhat like the realms candlekeep (haven't read much about it) but a bit more friendly since everyone can come and read (which to my understanding doesn't work in the candlekeep).
I will post the question then ^_^
Thanks for all the help again!
By the way, has anyone read the Maimun books of RAS? The one he wrote with his kid that is.
It's obviously taking place before "The Pirate King" and I'm curious if they are as good as any of his books? |
| Sandro |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 07:14:29
Here is that oft mentioned thread. Don't worry about asking a "stupid" question, as many scribes will happily point you in the right direction for the answers that have already been posted or published. This forum truly is an amazing place for any fan of the Realms.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 07:00:33
Exactly. Which is why, again, I'd recommend that Afromania really talk to Ed about this -- especially if you're looking for anything specific with respect to parts of Elminster's history.
Some of the history you're asking about, has been included, in brief, in such sources like Code of the Harpers and The Annotated Elminster, and, additionally, in the detailing of Athalantar in DRAGON #228.
But, ultimately, it's really Ed himself that these types of question should be posed before. Provided there's no NDAs [Non-Disclosure-Agreements] barring Ed's way, he should be able to provide some kind of response to these types of questions.
|
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 06:40:20
Okay, the brief answer? Ed started writing and developing the Realms since he was a wee librarian-in-training at eight-years old. It's been his home campaign since 1975 and he has TONS of notes on just about everything in the world. So, take into account that the character of Elminster has been around since 1967*, that's over 40 years of character development and stories. To put it simply, Elminster's entire story will probably never be published. All we have are these brief glimpses into the Old Sage's life and times.
*As noted in Ed's article "Play with me, she breathed" in Dragon #218. |
| Afromania |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 01:42:00
Your link is indeed helpful, but still unorganized by, say, definite subjects like "Elminster", "the seven sisters" and so on and so forth. Why would it be interesting to sort it chronologically but not by the subjects? Again, I've no complaints, i find these forums much more helpful than i ever expected. I'm just putting up my opinion in case it matters. At least the index help folk like me find our way a bit easier - for this you certainly have my thanks Sage.
And yes, I would go ask the author, i just figured that in-case someone else (less busy) knows, i might as well ask around first.
Seems to me like there should be much more explaining around the Elminster series (as people warned me it would be), what's the point of a book if i have to use source-book to read it? Translating runes isn't my thing i admit.
Time-Gaps should be explained, at least partially (I admit, in this case, RAS writing style exceeds my wishes in explaining every single thing five times per book). Powers of the main character would be so much more fun to read about when i know what he uses (as in, spells or mystra's gifts). Not to mention i find many bits of information uncalled for (and again, so much lacking), it's almost like reading a book written by god about a specific human and all that's somewhat related to him, but the book is written for other gods who know everything as it is and only want the few missing parts of this human's history.
I was sure books are written to be enjoyed with or without past (and in Ed's case - future) knowledge. Do I really have to learn everything about Elminster BEFORE i read his past? That's just...weird - for me.
I still enjoy the books, wouldn't bother asking all these questions otherwise, I'm just left with twice as much questions as answers after every chapter. And even in the end of the book it's all unexplained (who were those magelords? what happened to myth-drannor? who are the harpers and how did they come to be? why the **** is Elminster chosen and not some actually capable wizard that doesn't rely on his god? what's the silver-fire thingy? can he use spellfire right now or only in 1000 years?)
If this was all knowledge none-related to the book, so be it. If this was all knowledge from past books and I haven't read them, so be it. But it's knowledge essential to enjoying the specific series, and also knowledge that has no books of itself (or, at least, none that i know of yet, and i know very little indeed in realmslore) although Elminster series is a "series" meaning it should be read one after the other - i think.
I've seen this happen before, but never have I had to look around the internet to explain such essential things to the story.
P.S
I did not type all of this to get a real comment, I understand it's useless to "scream and shout" like that, I just had to let it out, Elminster is an interesting character (even if i can barely comprehend him as of now) and I'm trying to work around it. I simply wish that it would all be more clear and none-dependent on me knowing the full history of the realms to enjoy (and why would i? it only takes a few words to explain the bits that are untied, and most authors do that for the sake of fluidity).
And thus, I am left depending on the mercy of the forums :D
The pleasure (and yes, the pain too) is all yours. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 01:06:44
quote:
Originally posted by Afromania
Yes, dear sage, I knew he can use it at some point, I'm trying to figure out if it's early in his lifetime or later on (since nothing has been said about it except in the first book when Mystra herself uses spellfire briefly).
Is there any who knows when he learns to use it? Is it part of him being a chosen or something he learned how to wield - or got from Mystra - after he was a chosen.
Again, this is probably a question for Ed, as only he could answer it to any satisfying degree. Which is why I recommended you ask him earlier. This sounds like a specific query.
quote:
By the way "The Sage", the search tool isn't very helpful at all by what I can see (not to blame admins of course, search tools in forums are always clumsy) - If you would type "Elminster" you won't get links to specific posts about him but rather to entire threads (like "questions to ED.Greenwood). I would love reading the whole thread, but I rather invest my time on reading the books!
Maybe if I would type something around "Elminster learns spellfire" I will see better results, but then again it's the whole thread which means I'll have to dig in it.
You can always use the "So Saith Ed" archives to search for specific Ed-lore. See the URL in my sig.
As for the perceived problems of the 'Search' function here at Candlekeep, well, it's currently on our "To-Do" list of things to improve for the forum update to Candlekeep 2. |
| Afromania |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 00:33:58
Yes, dear sage, I knew he can use it at some point, I'm trying to figure out if it's early in his lifetime or later on (since nothing has been said about it except in the first book when Mystra herself uses spellfire briefly).
Is there any who knows when he learns to use it? Is it part of him being a chosen or something he learned how to wield - or got from Mystra - after he was a chosen.
I'm only confused since El keeps sending his foe's spells against them in those early books in the Elminster series, and it just may be a spell-shield of a sort.
By the way "The Sage", the search tool isn't very helpful at all by what I can see (not to blame admins of course, search tools in forums are always clumsy) - If you would type "Elminster" you won't get links to specific posts about him but rather to entire threads (like "questions to ED.Greenwood). I would love reading the whole thread, but I rather invest my time on reading the books!
Maybe if I would type something around "Elminster learns spellfire" I will see better results, but then again it's the whole thread which means I'll have to dig in it. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 00:05:28
The Crown of Fire novel confirms that Elminster can use it by the grace of Mystra, but using it "taxes him overmuch."
And, also, from Ed's "Shandril of Spellfire, And Why I Decided Not To Destroy Her" article at WotC:-
quote:
So hearken, and learn of spellfire and the lass who most recently bore it. Learn not as we of the Chosen command it, which is as something bound up in Mystra's silver fire and feared even by us for its potential for undoing and going wild and wreaking havoc, but as wild and willful as anything a proud youngling can hurl at the world to make that world take notice and grant respect.
|
| Afromania |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 23:57:46
Nothing specific surely.
Any lore master knows when did Elminster learn to use spellfire? It seems to me like he uses it right after the first book of his series, but since i never read the books detailing it i cannot tell. Is it his simple "mantle" that reflects magics? Or is that a normal spell? ^_^ |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 23:29:23
quote:
Originally posted by Afromania
So it's simply a general known fact that El created the Harpers and had fun in Myh Drannor?
I was sure there will be a story for that time, including something about the Knights of that elven city, might be that the city will be re-built and then the knights take place?
Well, Ed has talked about this briefly in his replies here. And, as I said earlier, if you've a specific query about the period, perhaps you should ask Ed.
|
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 17:20:49
Richard Baker's The Last Mythal details the retaking of Myth Drannor from the dark forces that claim it. The Knights of Myth Drannor are featured in Mr. Greenwood's Swords trilogy (Swords of Eveningstar, Swords of Dragonfire, and The Sword Never Sleeps). |
| Afromania |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 17:10:30
So it's simply a general known fact that El created the Harpers and had fun in Myh Drannor?
I was sure there will be a story for that time, including something about the Knights of that elven city, might be that the city will be re-built and then the knights take place? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 23:52:41
quote:
Originally posted by Afromania
Any clue where can i get the story that was between the 2nd and 3rd book of the Elminster series?
Nothing specific. Ed's offered some tidbits in his replies over the years, but we haven't much of a detailed account. Perhaps you should try asking Ed for any particular info you're curious about regarding this period of Elminster's life?
|
| Afromania |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 23:20:07
Cool Sandro, sounds reasonable, It's just not the guy I would appoint as my chosen, but he's getting much more interesting now in the 3rd book, and I believe your words. After this series I'll look around the other books mentioned here.
Hopefully I'll get to like him, i read some FAQ here on candlekeep and it seems like he's interesting enough once he finishes walking the road Mystra sent him to.
Any clue where can i get the story that was between the 2nd and 3rd book of the Elminster series?
That's 400 years in which he drastically changed, from what i can figure out, though still "youthful" and foolish. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 18:57:03
quote:
who cares for Elminster if all we see of him in these books is the stupidity?
I daresay this is likely more interesting if you know him as the one that's never stupid.
The problem, in your case, is that there is no series just of "Elminster being Elminster", as we know him today, because that really doesn't make for the best stories (with the slight exception of the last two Elminster books, probably more Daughter than Hell, though). You can't get to know him as you did Raistlin, because he grew into his power over centuries, rather than Raistlin, who came into his power very suddenly, and used it mainly for one end (which made one hell of a great story, I must say).
It seems to me that Firestorm may have hit the nail on the head: you're looking for the wrong thing in Greenwood's books, and I'd definitely back up his recommendations for more "Salvatore-esque" novels, and also recommend the Avatar series, which will both give you glimpses of Elminster being Elminster, an adventuring party, and many looks into the lives of the gods. They may be hard to find, but I found them outstanding, especially as a fairly new Realms fan looking (as are you) to branch off from Salvatore into the wider Realms. |
| Afromania |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 16:44:32
After gathering some information around the wiki, all i can understand is that i should have not started with the Elminster series :) Probably better to have started with something more advance in his life, to care for the character before reading it's past. |
| Afromania |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 06:17:37
It's not the knowledge I'm lacking, it's that a book should be sorted in some logical manner and without being deprived of the actual interesting parts...who cares for Elminster if all we see of him in these books is the stupidity?
And now, book 3, he's just strong and should not use magic cause he needs to learn a few more things...
Umm...hello? I wanna know how he became great, not how he skipped 400 years to becoming great.
It's almost as if you see a child playing with swords one day, and then the next time you meet him he's the Paladin-King Gaerth Dragonsbane.
Anyways, the overall set of the books is confusing, and yea i got no clue when El started the Harpers or any of the other things mentioned around, but as far as a character goes he IS interesting, I just hate characters that cry to their gods all day :)
Maybe I should just stck to Raistlin and the like, defeating gods is far more appealing than crying for help. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 00:38:14
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
The Problem with Elminster books(Other than Greenwood's writing style assuming everyone is as knowledgeable in FR lore as he) . . .
quote:
Also the fact that many of the things that happen to Elminster in between are covered in sourcebooks(Which Greenwood expects you to know before picking up his books)
This isn't so. Ed mentions things outside the narrow focus of the story (or immediate subject of descriptive writing) not expecting the reader to already know them, but as one of the main methods of conjuring an expansive, interlinked world extending far beyond any single thread.
Even if you take it as such, the problem with this is that a large portion of readers will have no clue what he is talking about unless they are a hardcore DnD fan.
It was the largest problem I had with his books early on when I got into the series. Until I boned up on DnD, I had no clue what was going on because of the lack of explanation. The majority of my friends on the other hand, loved certain books in forgotten realms, but could not get into his books for just that reason.
I told my friend Spellfire was an awesome book, so he read it, but found myself forced to better explain to him what the Cult of the Dragon and the Zhentarim were, and the little tie in's from previous editions and things because nobody short of someone who knows the realms well can understand all these little tie in's.
When Manshoon gets up shedding a tear for the Shadowsil's death, he asked me "Why is this guy, who is supposedly lord of this Zhentarim gang whatever crying?? "And who are all these people he keeps mentioning but not coming back to?"
As Such, his books are excellent pieces of work to me now that I am well versed in realmslore, but were books I could barely finish back before I was well into realmslore. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 22:47:40
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
The Problem with Elminster books(Other than Greenwood's writing style assuming everyone is as knowledgeable in FR lore as he) . . .
quote:
Also the fact that many of the things that happen to Elminster in between are covered in sourcebooks(Which Greenwood expects you to know before picking up his books)
This isn't so. Ed mentions things outside the narrow focus of the story (or immediate subject of descriptive writing) not expecting the reader to already know them, but as one of the main methods of conjuring an expansive, interlinked world extending far beyond any single thread. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 22:20:14
quote:
Originally posted by Afromania
Hmmm reading Elminster's now - and I don't get this weird gap between the 2nd and 3rd books...
just 100 years he's been frozen for, not to mention about 300 more years of being in the elven city, all being skipped...
And then he's already the great Elminster.
It's like, on the 1st and 2nd book he's a foolish mageling, and now he's all of a sudden great...did i miss anything?
They definitely aren't as good as RAS's :(
Maybe i started reading from the wrong book (started at "The Making of a Mage" and not in some glorious Elminster story).
The Problem with Elminster books(Other than Greenwood's writing style assuming everyone is as knowledgeable in FR lore as he), is that you have over 1000 years to cover if you decide to tell his story in full.
When you think about it, Drizzt is slightly over 100 years old by this point, and he has nearly 20 books of character development, many years of which were covered in just a few chapters(His youth).
What exactly is the easy way to get 1000 years of a character down? Many of the early Elminster books are just a quick guideline to learn who he is before you get to books like Spellfire, Shadows of doom, etc
Also the fact that many of the things that happen to Elminster in between are covered in sourcebooks(Which Greenwood expects you to know before picking up his books)
From reading your posts.....If you were looking for a series more closely resembling the Drizzt series in Forgotten realms(With some swordplay, Assassins, intrigue, Priests, and all in all smaller groups of less world changing characters like Drizzt, etc), you probably should be looking elsewhere than the Elminster books.
Elaine Cunningham's songs and Swords books for example. The first books called "Elfshadow" and "Elfsong" featuring Arilyn Moonblade and Danilo Thann(And a bit of sprinkled in Khelben Blackstaff, who is Elminsterlike) and the Introduction of my favorite character Elaith Craulnober(Who is kind of a cross between Jarlaxle and Entreri) would likely be more up your alley.
Or my favorite realms books. Paul Kemp's Erevis Cale series. Cale being a former night Mask assassin turned Butler for a family he loves, but do not know about his past, etc + Drasek Riven, the excellent heartless assassin, etc
The first story I read with them was from Halls of Stormweather. Great short story. Shadow's Witness was a bit harder for me to get through because it had a few slow moments. But the Erevis cale trilogy was awesome, and the twilight war even more so. |
| Afromania |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 20:30:02
Hmmm reading Elminster's now - and I don't get this weird gap between the 2nd and 3rd books...
just 100 years he's been frozen for, not to mention about 300 more years of being in the elven city, all being skipped...
And then he's already the great Elminster.
It's like, on the 1st and 2nd book he's a foolish mageling, and now he's all of a sudden great...did i miss anything?
They definitely aren't as good as RAS's :(
Maybe i started reading from the wrong book (started at "The Making of a Mage" and not in some glorious Elminster story). |
| Sandro |
Posted - 01 Nov 2009 : 03:50:47
Ah, you're correct, of course, Wooly -- not owning any Dragon magazines I do tend to forget about them.
As it is, though, the Old Grey Box was the first proper Realms publication in which he appeared. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Nov 2009 : 03:48:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
quote:
Originally posted by Afromania
Thankee Sandro, so can I determine from what you said that the character Elminster existed before the 5 books about him went out? Was he some famed wizard mentioned in the realms before his own books came? Or maybe from the RPG books?
It just seems odd to me that a famous mage like himself has a story that actually starts from youth.
Raistin for example did not, nor Merlin or Gandalf for that matter. They all started in some fame (or exactly at the point they start climbing to that) and maybe then had their past recollections.
Aye, Elminster goes way back (back to Ed's original Realms, well before TSR existed to publish them) and has popped up in a great many novels (I believe the first was Spellfire, published in 1988), though he was not the main player until the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy. His first published appearance was in the 1e Forgotten Realms Campaign setting (Old Grey Box). More information can be found at http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Elminster_Aumar .
Actually, Elminster was published well before the advent of the Old Grey Box. It was Ed's numerous Dragon Magazine articles -- articles in which Elminster would drop in on Ed and discuss some aspect of life in the Realms -- that brought Ed and the Realms to the attention of TSR. The Old Grey Box came out in 1987; I don't know when El first appeared in Dragon, but there's an article just about him in issue 110 -- June 1986.
Ed has actually covered all this in his replies here at Candlekeep. A thorough search of the archives will reveal the relevant entries. |
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