| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jcdf |
Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 11:02:58
What is the 'soul-blindness' that doomed Netheril? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| jcdf |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 10:44:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Okay, I'm kinda worried about the last few responses in this scroll, and the direction they're heading off into. I'd suggest the scribes involved take a few moments to re-think their participation in this discussion, before replying again.
As the founder of this topic I say do as the sage says chaps.
I am getting sick of hanging around Dambrath, some Loviatar's priestesses have taken a liking to me. Time to leave!
I am thinking about putting together an expedition into Raurin the Dust Desert.
I am thinking of going via the Eastern Shaar up through Veldorn over the Northern peak of the Giant's Belt and south into the Raurin Dust Desert. Any tips for travellers in these lands? Any human dwellings in the north of Veldorn or south part of the plains of purple dust?
I hope to find some nice tasty Imaskar ruins and hopefully Inupras it's self. I also plan to look for the legendary Imaskarcana, the seven items in which the empire's immense magical lore is recorded for all eternity. I am curious to know if I am wasting my time with this, are the Imaskarcana still located in the Raurin Dust Desert? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 06:45:48
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Okay, I'm kinda worried about the last few responses in this scroll, and the direction they're heading off into. I'd suggest the scribes involved take a few moments to re-think their participation in this discussion, before replying again.
Now, I certainly don't want to violate any of the terms of conduct, but I can't help but feel somewhat uncomfortable about the fact that the person who appears to take part in most of the heated exchanges on this site is also one of the most active moderators.
I made what I believed to be a legitimate point about Realmslore, namely that even some of the 'good' polities of the Realms are ruled with methods and laws that in our world would be considered tyrannical. I believe that one of the reasons for that is that those rulers rule in the name of their personal magical power and not by the consent of the governed.
I believe that this is an interesting part of Realmslore. I believe that there is a lot of adventuring potential in the discrepancy between the supposed benevolent motives of the awesomely powerful personalities in the Realms and the fact that they routinely engage in acts of breath-taking, heavy-handed arrogance with the lives of common people.
I also believe that one should be able to discuss this without rancor and childish tantrums.
Instead, a moderator of these forums proceeds to make an insulting remark about a whole profession, going so far that he considers it not a profession at all. I'm sorry. That's not just wrong. It's also a group attack and in violation of the rules of the forums. The rules that this moderator is supposed to be upholding.
To make things clear, I like jokes. I like frank exchange of views. I probably have a personal tolerance for open discourse quite far beyond what is allowed on most forums.
But if a conversation is supposed to be shut down because one of the moderators can't remain civil enough to avoid rampart displays of bigotry, well, maybe the moderators should moderate their ranks.
It's not an insult at all. It's looking at the word profession in a different manner than you are. As I see it, a profession requires a unique skillset or a unique combination of skills. Here in the real world, we've had soldiers, businesspeople, actors, lawyers, and doctors get into politics. We've had a pro wrestler become a politician, an astronaut become a politican, and a comedian recently became a politician. My country was set up by a bunch of guys whose only qualifications were that they were white male wealthy landowners, and many of them were our first generation of politicians. Heck, Italy had a porn star become a politician.
The skills required by politicians are required in almost all fields, to varying degrees. Therefore, there is nothing that sets this skillset apart from any other.
People from all those wildly different backgrounds and careers all had the skills to enter into politics. Therefore, politics does not require a unique skillset, and thus doesn't fit the category of profession. It's a role, not a profession.
My intent was not to insult anyone, regardless of what they do. I just don't see how something can be called a profession when it has no unique qualifications or skills. A role and a profession are not the same thing, as I tried to illustrate with a couple of my earlier examples.
I'm not saying this to continue the debate. I'm explaining myself to show that there was no insult here. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 03:16:36
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Now, I certainly don't want to violate any of the terms of conduct, but I can't help but feel somewhat uncomfortable about the fact that the person who appears to take part in most of the heated exchanges on this site is also one of the most active moderators.
Well, that's a point you'd have to discuss between Wooly and youself. Privately.
quote:
I also believe that one should be able to discuss this without rancor and childish tantrums.
Granted. But we've seen these kinds of discussions degenerate before, here at Candlekeep. I'm simply seeking a preventative measure. And I know, from experience, how nasty these types of discussions can become. Please allow me the benefit of experience in this regard.
quote:
Instead, a moderator of these forums proceeds to make an insulting remark about a whole profession, going so far that he considers it not a profession at all. I'm sorry. That's not just wrong. It's also a group attack and in violation of the rules of the forums. The rules that this moderator is supposed to be upholding.
Again, this is something that should be addressed to the offending moderator/s. And, again, in private.
quote:
To make things clear, I like jokes. I like frank exchange of views. I probably have a personal tolerance for open discourse quite far beyond what is allowed on most forums.
That's understandable. Each site tends to view these kinds of discussions differently. But we do have a fair number of younglings visiting Candlekeep, so some standards must be maintained for their benefit.
quote:
But if a conversation is supposed to be shut down because one of the moderators can't remain civil enough to avoid rampart displays of bigotry, well, maybe the moderators should moderate their ranks.
I don't really think that's necessary. And I'm almost certain that you and Wooly should be able to resolve these difficulties via private messaging. Please do so.
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 02:13:22
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Okay, I'm kinda worried about the last few responses in this scroll, and the direction they're heading off into. I'd suggest the scribes involved take a few moments to re-think their participation in this discussion, before replying again.
Now, I certainly don't want to violate any of the terms of conduct, but I can't help but feel somewhat uncomfortable about the fact that the person who appears to take part in most of the heated exchanges on this site is also one of the most active moderators.
I made what I believed to be a legitimate point about Realmslore, namely that even some of the 'good' polities of the Realms are ruled with methods and laws that in our world would be considered tyrannical. I believe that one of the reasons for that is that those rulers rule in the name of their personal magical power and not by the consent of the governed.
I believe that this is an interesting part of Realmslore. I believe that there is a lot of adventuring potential in the discrepancy between the supposed benevolent motives of the awesomely powerful personalities in the Realms and the fact that they routinely engage in acts of breath-taking, heavy-handed arrogance with the lives of common people.
I also believe that one should be able to discuss this without rancor and childish tantrums.
Instead, a moderator of these forums proceeds to make an insulting remark about a whole profession, going so far that he considers it not a profession at all. I'm sorry. That's not just wrong. It's also a group attack and in violation of the rules of the forums. The rules that this moderator is supposed to be upholding.
To make things clear, I like jokes. I like frank exchange of views. I probably have a personal tolerance for open discourse quite far beyond what is allowed on most forums.
But if a conversation is supposed to be shut down because one of the moderators can't remain civil enough to avoid rampart displays of bigotry, well, maybe the moderators should moderate their ranks. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 00:51:40
Okay, I'm kinda worried about the last few responses in this scroll, and the direction they're heading off into. I'd suggest the scribes involved take a few moments to re-think their participation in this discussion, before replying again. |
| jcdf |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 23:22:22
quote:
Originally posted by Fingal
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
There is no reference to "soul-blindness" that I can recall in any of the sourcebooks I've read that deal with Netheril (pretty well all of them).
The quotation "So far the Halruaans have avoided the soul blindness that doomed Netheril." comes from the 3.e FRCS. It's on page 194, the last sentence of the first paragraph in the Halruaa entry.
I have never seen the phrase in any other source book, though. Neither the old 2e Shining South or the 3e version had it as far as I know, and there is nothing like it in the Netheril boxset. I always assumed it was merely a poetic way of saying 'arogance, pride and greed,' and nothing more than that.
Quite the argument this has started.
Did somebody mention human rights, this is a place where there are countless other races most of whom consider humans food, so how can human rights be an issue. I think we can all agree none of us would want to live in the madness of faerun. Imagine trying to sleep at night not knowing if a goblin, vampire, giant spider or one of countless other abominations was going to come bursting into your bedroom and eat you.
More questions about Imaskar.
Does anybody know anything much about the Imaskari Artificers?
Where abouts would the Imaskarcana, the seven items in which the empire's immense magical lore is recorded for all eternity, be found in faerun after the empires collapse? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 22:18:53
quote:
Originally posted by Fingal
I always assumed it was merely a poetic way of saying 'arogance, pride and greed,' and nothing more than that.
That sounds reasonable to me.  |
| Fingal |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 18:58:47
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
There is no reference to "soul-blindness" that I can recall in any of the sourcebooks I've read that deal with Netheril (pretty well all of them).
The quotation "So far the Halruaans have avoided the soul blindness that doomed Netheril." comes from the 3.e FRCS. It's on page 194, the last sentence of the first paragraph in the Halruaa entry.
I have never seen the phrase in any other source book, though. Neither the old 2e Shining South or the 3e version had it as far as I know, and there is nothing like it in the Netheril boxset. I always assumed it was merely a poetic way of saying 'arogance, pride and greed,' and nothing more than that. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 18:51:43
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The city's continued existence doesn't prove it offers enough protection? Then what would?
If they city was able to deal with the threats to the surrounding area that appear in published Realmslore.
And again, the fact that the city has continued to exist proves it offers sufficient protection.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
There is a strong cult of personality thing going on, but she's feared as primitives feared their gods.
I don't see that.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Real world tyrants can't appear out of nowhere and kill you with a thought. She's far scarier than anything in the real world.
Think it's a coincidence that she fosters the impression that any random animals or even piece of furniture could be her listening in on you?
If you even think of opposing her, you might be dead before you know it.
Might be is not the same as will be. And I have yet to see anything in published Realmslore that suggests her own people fear her.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The country is doing far worse than it could be. And its neighbours could share in their prosperity, but they don't. Because Halruuans evidently believe that safeguarding their own wealth and secrets is more important than allowing other people the chance to have some success.
That's your opinion. The average Halruaan obviously does not agree with you.
Besides, if they didn't safeguard their wealth and that which enabled to them to get it, how long would they be able to retain it?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
What?
That's not true. Have you ever run a large organisation? Run for office? Formed policy?
Disagree with politicians all you want, but don't pretend that what they do somehow isn't a profession at all just because you don't like them.
Doing these things takes skill. Natural ability helps, of course, but all of those are still learned skills. This is not unknown. They are taught, with greater or lesser success, but the best way to learn them is to exercise them.
This is why those who are professional rulers tend to be better at it than those who are professionals at something else.
Skill does not make a profession. Any woman can have a baby, but that doesn't make her a professional mother. I myself have never had any training for it, but I'm a pretty good editor. It's a role I've filled. That doesn't make me a professional.
Filling a role does not make a profession, even if you get paid for it.
A "professional" politician is just someone who gets into that role and stays there. And just because they're there, it doesn't mean they're doing a good job.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If the people without training were equally likely to be good at it as those with training, you'd have a point.
Do you believe that?
Nope. And I didn't say it. I simply said that training was not the only way to have aptitude.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
You said that: "Anyone can lead people or play political games, assuming they have the relevant skills and abilities. And those skills and abilities are learned for some, and inborn in others. Just because a person does it full time doesn't mean they're any better at it than those who don't."
Yup, I said that. And look at the relevant part of the statement: "assuming they have the relevant skills and abilities. And those skills and abilities are learned for some, and inborn in others."
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Now, 'just because someone does it full time doesn't mean that they're any better at it than those who don't' is the sentence I was referring to.
Now, if you take two random samples of humanity. One does something full time. The other does not. Which sample is more likely to contain individuals that are good at it in greater concentration?
It's not random if you limit it to a group that does something and a group that doesn't. And besides, I never said all people had all aptitudes -- just that for some people, training was irrelevant.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
You said that they were equally likely to do so. I reject that as an offence against common sense, against logic and against history.
While you're rejecting that stuff, you're also rejecting the fact that I never said or even implied equal likelihoods. Again, kindly stick to what I actually said. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 18:32:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The city's continued existence doesn't prove it offers enough protection? Then what would?
If they city was able to deal with the threats to the surrounding area that appear in published Realmslore.
The prefered method of Silverymoon appears to be 'send ineffective help in the form of a few knights and then pretend to be very sad when lots of people die'.
The dwarves of the region have more respect for human life than that. They send armies to help human neighbours they don't even particularly like. Silverymoon, well...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That may be your impression, but it's not mine. And I've certainly never gotten the impression that Aglarondans lived in fear of their leader.
There is a strong cult of personality thing going on, but she's feared as primitives feared their gods.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, you made a point of saying that she's constantly not leading, and that she has people leading in her absence. How is that at all like any real world example? People who rule by fear and utter domination don't leave other people in charge for extended lengths of time -- that's just asking to lose your position. Therefore, it's only logical to assume that she's not ruling by fear, and that she is a good ruler.
Real world tyrants can't appear out of nowhere and kill you with a thought. She's far scarier than anything in the real world.
Think it's a coincidence that she fosters the impression that any random animals or even piece of furniture could be her listening in on you?
If you even think of opposing her, you might be dead before you know it.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And your point is? They are trading, and they are engaging with the outside world -- it's just on their terms. The country is doing pretty well, so it obviously works for them.
The country is doing far worse than it could be. And its neighbours could share in their prosperity, but they don't. Because Halruuans evidently believe that safeguarding their own wealth and secrets is more important than allowing other people the chance to have some success.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
People fill those roles. Anyone can fill those roles, regardless of aptitude or training. That's not really a profession.
What?
That's not true. Have you ever run a large organisation? Run for office? Formed policy?
Disagree with politicians all you want, but don't pretend that what they do somehow isn't a profession at all just because you don't like them.
Doing these things takes skill. Natural ability helps, of course, but all of those are still learned skills. This is not unknown. They are taught, with greater or lesser success, but the best way to learn them is to exercise them.
This is why those who are professional rulers tend to be better at it than those who are professionals at something else.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I feel that way about my own political and corporate leaders. And yet, I'm pretty sure I'm not disenfranchised and discriminated against.
People feel that way for a variety of reasons, but this isn't about feelings.
If you really were excluded from political or corporate leadership because of which social group you belonged to, you would be disenfranchised and discriminated against. Non-mages in Halruua are, systematically. Maybe you are too, I don't know where you live or what social group you belong to.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, let's see. I've known people that intuitively understand how certain machines work. I've known people that without any training whatsoever can produce beautiful artwork or sing exceptionally well. Just because some people have to have training to sing or paint or work on a car doesn't mean that the skill does not exist without training. So yes, there are "skills that exist independent of experience or training." Certainly not for a majority, but not at all unknown.
If the people without training were equally likely to be good at it as those with training, you'd have a point.
Do you believe that?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nowhere did I say that training or experience was totally irrelevant. Please stop putting words in my mouth. If you're not going to respond to what is actually said, then there's no point in continuing this discussion. 
You said that: "Anyone can lead people or play political games, assuming they have the relevant skills and abilities. And those skills and abilities are learned for some, and inborn in others. Just because a person does it full time doesn't mean they're any better at it than those who don't."
Now, 'just because someone does it full time doesn't mean that they're any better at it than those who don't' is the sentence I was referring to.
Now, if you take two random samples of humanity. One does something full time. The other does not. Which sample is more likely to contain individuals that are good at it in greater concentration?
You said that they were equally likely to do so. I reject that as an offence against common sense, against logic and against history.
If practice and experience have any effect at all, the only correct answer is that the group which does it full time is more likely to have a greater concentration of people with command of a given skill. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 17:50:11
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
There's no evidence that it's any better to be under Silverymoon's theoretical protection than it is to have none at all.
The city's continued existence doesn't prove it offers enough protection? Then what would?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
First of all, I'm far from convinced that she would not. In her appearances in fiction, she has never struck me as particularly respectful of human life, freedom or rights.
Second, even if she wouldn't, it is certain that the people of Aglarond believe she would. Many canon sources detail the extreme terror she engenders in pretty much everyone she meets.
Third, do you really believe that the fact that someone hasn't removed a leader means that the leader must be competent? Hello, Robert Mugabe has reigned for 29 years!
Fourth, even if she was as bad as Idi Amin, the Aglarondians could prefer the devil they know over the Red Wizards (who are bad enough, but have been demonised even more by their Witch Queen).
That may be your impression, but it's not mine. And I've certainly never gotten the impression that Aglarondans lived in fear of their leader.
Okay, you made a point of saying that she's constantly not leading, and that she has people leading in her absence. How is that at all like any real world example? People who rule by fear and utter domination don't leave other people in charge for extended lengths of time -- that's just asking to lose your position. Therefore, it's only logical to assume that she's not ruling by fear, and that she is a good ruler.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
They trade far less than they could and that is because of strong governmental restrictions on trade.
And your point is? They are trading, and they are engaging with the outside world -- it's just on their terms. The country is doing pretty well, so it obviously works for them.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
"...in Halruua, [mages] have the inside track to health, wealth and happiness and those who don't have the spark of magic feel as if they're on the outside looking in."
Shining South, p. 129.
What is this a description of, if not a society where one social group is disenfranchised and discriminated against?
I feel that way about my own political and corporate leaders. And yet, I'm pretty sure I'm not disenfranchised and discriminated against.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
PRofessional politicians and leaders really exist. This is not a theoretical thought exercise. I haven't asked you to imagine them or assume their existence without evidence.
People fill those roles. Anyone can fill those roles, regardless of aptitude or training. That's not really a profession.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
And that last sentence... whew! Please, just think about what you are saying. Effectively, you believe that there are skills that exist independent of experience or training. Not just that they are affected by other factors, but that training and experience have no bearing on them at all.
I, uh... just don't know how to convince your differently. I mean, if you were to examine how many people in the real world are the best at their profession, any profession, without devoting themselves to it, you would find slim pickings, but you don't seem to care about that. You're basically casually asserting that something that personal experience teaches everyone before the end of childhood isn't true because you don't believe in it.
Well, let's see. I've known people that intuitively understand how certain machines work. I've known people that without any training whatsoever can produce beautiful artwork or sing exceptionally well. Just because some people have to have training to sing or paint or work on a car doesn't mean that the skill does not exist without training. So yes, there are "skills that exist independent of experience or training." Certainly not for a majority, but not at all unknown.
Nowhere did I say that training or experience was totally irrelevant. Please stop putting words in my mouth. If you're not going to respond to what is actually said, then there's no point in continuing this discussion. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 17:19:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But you said the people around Silverymoon could be slain with impunity... If that was true, it would have already happened, and people wouldn't have gone in to replace them. The fact that this is not the case clearly illustrates that while the protection might not be ideal, there's enough protection that people are willing to risk themselves and their loved ones.
People are also willing to risk themselves and their loved ones in areas where there is no protection.
I don't think that this is particularly intelligent of them, but the history of human habitation on the Savage North does appear to suggest that humans simply breed enough to replace losses.
There's no evidence that it's any better to be under Silverymoon's theoretical protection than it is to have none at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Simbul really wasn't a good leader, would the council keep letting her lead? Even the Simbul isn't going to slay a bunch of people for no crime worse than disagreeing with her.
First of all, I'm far from convinced that she would not. In her appearances in fiction, she has never struck me as particularly respectful of human life, freedom or rights.
Second, even if she wouldn't, it is certain that the people of Aglarond believe she would. Many canon sources detail the extreme terror she engenders in pretty much everyone she meets.
Third, do you really believe that the fact that someone hasn't removed a leader means that the leader must be competent? Hello, Robert Mugabe has reigned for 29 years!
Fourth, even if she was as bad as Idi Amin, the Aglarondians could prefer the devil they know over the Red Wizards (who are bad enough, but have been demonised even more by their Witch Queen).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Halruaa does engage in trade. Just because they don't trust others and tend to stay home, it doesn't mean they have no contact at all with the outside world. They do -- they just prefer that the outside world stays outside.
They trade far less than they could and that is because of strong governmental restrictions on trade.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I don't see that Halruaa has a separate but equal thing with wizards and non-wizards. Wizards may be the ruling elite, but they're also a minority. Being a magocracy doesn't mean that non-mages are automatically lesser people.
So do you believe that a minority can never oppress a minority? Tell that to apartheit South Africa.
"...in Halruua, [mages] have the inside track to health, wealth and happiness and those who don't have the spark of magic feel as if they're on the outside looking in."
Shining South, p. 129.
What is this a description of, if not a society where one social group is disenfranchised and discriminated against?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't consider politics and leadership to be a vocation. Anyone can lead people or play political games, assuming they have the relevant skills and abilities. And those skills and abilities are learned for some, and inborn in others. Just because a person does it full time doesn't mean they're any better at it than those who don't.
I don't really know what to say to that.
PRofessional politicians and leaders really exist. This is not a theoretical thought exercise. I haven't asked you to imagine them or assume their existence without evidence.
And that last sentence... whew! Please, just think about what you are saying. Effectively, you believe that there are skills that exist independent of experience or training. Not just that they are affected by other factors, but that training and experience have no bearing on them at all.
I, uh... just don't know how to convince your differently. I mean, if you were to examine how many people in the real world are the best at their profession, any profession, without devoting themselves to it, you would find slim pickings, but you don't seem to care about that. You're basically casually asserting that something that personal experience teaches everyone before the end of childhood isn't true because you don't believe in it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 16:44:27
But you said the people around Silverymoon could be slain with impunity... If that was true, it would have already happened, and people wouldn't have gone in to replace them. The fact that this is not the case clearly illustrates that while the protection might not be ideal, there's enough protection that people are willing to risk themselves and their loved ones.
If the Simbul really wasn't a good leader, would the council keep letting her lead? Even the Simbul isn't going to slay a bunch of people for no crime worse than disagreeing with her.
Halruaa does engage in trade. Just because they don't trust others and tend to stay home, it doesn't mean they have no contact at all with the outside world. They do -- they just prefer that the outside world stays outside. And I don't see that Halruaa has a separate but equal thing with wizards and non-wizards. Wizards may be the ruling elite, but they're also a minority. Being a magocracy doesn't mean that non-mages are automatically lesser people.
I don't consider politics and leadership to be a vocation. Anyone can lead people or play political games, assuming they have the relevant skills and abilities. And those skills and abilities are learned for some, and inborn in others. Just because a person does it full time doesn't mean they're any better at it than those who don't.
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 15:08:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If Silverymoon wasn't able to defend the people that feed it, then how are they still there, and how have they remained able to feed it for centuries?
People breed and people in the North are apparently prepared to accept the risk of being slain and eaten from time to time.
Similarly, the Karen people in Burma are still there, but that doesn't mean that the regime there has been particularly successful in protecting them.
We see examples of villages and towns in the hinterlands of Silverymoon being attacked by trolls, by drow and by orcs at various times. At all those times, the so-called army of Silverymoon is too small, too weak and too uncaring to send effective help.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the fact that the Simbul can disappear for months at a time shows that she has done a good job of running things -- if not, the place would collapse every time she left.
That means the council does a good job ruling things. On it, one presumes there are professional politicians who actually keep things running in Aglarond.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for Halruaa... Their history has shown them that being isolated from their neighbors is a good policy. When people are constantly trying to kill you and/or steal all your secrets, do you invite them in? The country is quite prosperous and most of the folks are well off -- they just want to be left alone, and to not repeat the mistakes their Netherese ancestors made.
Historically, you generally try to trade with them. If you don't, you are unlikely to ever improve your relations with them.
Isolationism is a stupid strategy in our world and it's a stupid strategy in fantasy worlds as well. Trade doesn't just redistribute wealth, it creates it. And wealth feeds people, defends them from hostile forces, builds them homes, etc.
You say Halruuans are well off and happy. Sure. Those who happen to be born mages mostly are. The others, well, 'seperate but equal' just about covers it.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And despite what you said, Icelander, you still didn't make a case that any particular vocation is better at leadership or politics than any other. What a person chooses to do (or is forced to do by circumstances) is not at all related to any capability they have to lead people. Sure, someone that leads only because he can squash anyone else won't be a good leader, but that's not limited to any one vocation.
I maintain that people whose vocation is politics and leadership will tend to be better at it than people whose vocation is something else.
Is that really controversial?
It's the equivalent of saying that most dentists are better at fixing teeth than phycisists. It's just a simple statement of the fact that time spent learning one thing will generally translate better into being good at that particular thing than time spent learning something else. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 14:57:12
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
quote:
She targets people and groups for political repression based purely on hunches and what can only be called paranoia.
When you're a chosen of Mystra your hunches tend to be slightly more than that.
Not necessarily. She's wrong often enough, it's just that she doesn't care how many people she harms as long as her goals are met.
Unless Mystra personally tells her what to do, she tends to default to believing that nearly everything is a Thayvian plot, everyone a Thayvian agent. And that allows her to rationalise any act she likes.
She works pretty much like the most paranoid government agencies of today's world would work if there was no such thing as human rights, consent of the governed or rule of law. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 14:55:58
If Silverymoon wasn't able to defend the people that feed it, then how are they still there, and how have they remained able to feed it for centuries?
I think the fact that the Simbul can disappear for months at a time shows that she has done a good job of running things -- if not, the place would collapse every time she left.
As for Halruaa... Their history has shown them that being isolated from their neighbors is a good policy. When people are constantly trying to kill you and/or steal all your secrets, do you invite them in? The country is quite prosperous and most of the folks are well off -- they just want to be left alone, and to not repeat the mistakes their Netherese ancestors made.
And despite what you said, Icelander, you still didn't make a case that any particular vocation is better at leadership or politics than any other. What a person chooses to do (or is forced to do by circumstances) is not at all related to any capability they have to lead people. Sure, someone that leads only because he can squash anyone else won't be a good leader, but that's not limited to any one vocation. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 09:49:33
quote:
She targets people and groups for political repression based purely on hunches and what can only be called paranoia.
When you're a chosen of Mystra your hunches tend to be slightly more than that. |
| Amarel Derakanor |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 07:30:17
An interesting read, Icelander. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 04:54:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by jcdf
I think wizards, sorcerers and mages do not make good political rulers.
What do you think
I think the Simbul and Alustriel would disagree with you. As would the rulers of Nimbral and Halruaa.
Well, of course they would. People generally have an unrealistic view of their own strengths and weaknesses.
Yet each of these rulers is something I personally would never re-elect in the real world (and, indeed, they stay in power by making sure that no one is allowed to elect anything anywhere near them).
Alustriel's mealy-mouthed fake pacifism* is at least an indirect cause of a whole host of deaths during several wars in the region. It's all very well for her to say that she doesn't want to raise an army capable of conquering her neighbours, limiting herself to the comparatively few Knights in Silver, but she has to be smart enough to know that this means her army will therefore not capable of defending all the small villages and homesteads of the hinterlands of Silverymoon either.
And as for Luruar, it is, at present, a political entity consisting only of paper and promises. It cannot defend all the land it claims and its people can be slaughtered with impunity. I agree that it's a step in the right direction, but I consider it unforgiveable for her to enter upon this allegience with so little preparation that she has almost no troops to contribute. That onus, she expects others to bear.
She's presented as politically astute and a wise ruler in descriptions of her character, but when we actually see her in novels or short stories, she is erratic, emotional and apparently incapable of effective delegation. Her lack of trust in subordinates and micro-managing nature appear to be the primary reason Silverymoon has previously been limited to a single city-state that is not able to defend the farmers that feed it.
The Simbul is... well, mad. She deserves all the applause in the world for her military contribution to Aglarond, but politically? She disappears without warning or instructions, for months at a time just to flit around in shapechanged form observing things that often have no relevance at all to Aglarond or Thay. She targets people and groups for political repression based purely on hunches and what can only be called paranoia. And finally, it has been shown time and time again that her obligations elsewhere make her neglect the governance of her realm and risk destruction.
Luckily, she has what one must presume to be capable politicians sitting on a council and who actually govern the realm in her frequent absences. Since she is more of a figurehead ruler than an actual one (de facto if not de jure), Aglarond has survived her madness so far.
Halruuans subsist in governmentally-enforced paranoia and isolation, determined to let Hades have everyone not lucky enough to be born there. They spend their energy squabbling, their wealth atrophies for lack of trade and their magic is rendered all but irrelevant by their hoarding of it. About the only good thing to say about them is that they have survived, but then again, one can say that about such real world nations like North Korea. Survival appears to be easy. It's doing the right thing more often than the wrong thing which is hard. And just doing nothing is not a good way to reach that goal.
Strangely, Nimbral is the place I have least criticism about. While they live in splendid isolation, at least they have broken it once to do something for an embattled neighbour. And what they did was eminently practical and sensible. Samarach continues to thank them today.
*Which, loosely translated, appears to consist of the belief that any violent or repressive action carried out by her personally is automatically justified, but establishing a military and security apparatus commesurate with the security situation would be an act of belligerence and evil.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Vocation has nothing to do with political aptitude or leadership abilities.
I disagree.
Political aptitude and leadership qualities are learned as much as inborn. In our world, we've found that despite the many flaws of people who aspire to leadership*, professionals make fewer mistakes than the amateur rulers of yesteryear whose claim to rule was based on heritage rather than vocation.
As for people who excel in other fields and then embrace rulership, I must say that their record is spotty. Being a good warlord has at least some correlation with being a good ruler**, but that didn't prevent Mao Tse-tsung from being simultaneously perhaps the most incompetent and malevolent ruler in history. And that's someone who had a proven track record as a leader of men, if not as a statesman. Other warlords have similarly spotty records, unless they actually learned politics along the way or were just genius enough to quickly master all subjects.
Mastering arcane formulae would appear to have a much lesser correlation with statesmanship than mastering leading men in battle. It therefore follows that leaders whose sole qualification is their ability to do unpleasantly arcane things to any competition for the position are not necessarily good rulers. In fact, they will tend to be substantially less effective than those whose claim to the position rests, for example, on the consent of the governed. I also venture that they will, on average, be less effective than those heriditary leaders who are at least raised and trained for their post. Training does matter, after all.
*And rest assured that they are legion.
**Some of the same qualities are useful. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 01:21:42
Silverymoon is a good counter-example, and not just because of Alustriel. It's been ruled by mages since its foundation. I don't think you can say it's been ruled badly. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 00:39:20
quote:
Originally posted by jcdf
I think wizards, sorcerers and mages do not make good political rulers.
What do you think
Eh. There are examples that prove otherwise. Like Alustriel maintaining Silverymoon [and by extension, the rest of Luruar] rather well during her time of rulership. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 00:37:28
quote:
Originally posted by jcdf
I think wizards, sorcerers and mages do not make good political rulers.
What do you think
I think the Simbul and Alustriel would disagree with you. As would the rulers of Nimbral and Halruaa.
Vocation has nothing to do with political aptitude or leadership abilities. |
| jcdf |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 22:10:08
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
I thought that Netheril was doomed by its own arrogance and recklessness as much as anything else.
Yeah but don't all kingdoms ruled by wizards fall in such a fashion. Like Imaskar for example! Halruaa fell but for different reasons. Makes you wonder how long Thay has before their wizard rulers make stupid arrogant reckless decisions that lead to their destruction.
I think wizards, sorcerers and mages do not make good political rulers.
What do you think |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 17:51:53
I thought that Netheril was doomed by its own arrogance and recklessness as much as anything else. |
| jcdf |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 11:42:00
I just thought that the soul-blindness was some sort of specific contagion that might have caused the collapse of Netheril and the spellplague. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 01:53:29
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Soul-blindness? That's one I've not heard of...
I seem to recall that particular reference coming from the BG and NWN persistent world campaigns being conducted elsewhere online. Otherwise, I don't immediately remember anything like this from the Realmslore.
This was the tidbit I was referring to earlier:-
quote:
So far the Halruaans have avoided the soul blindness that doomed Netheril.
'Tis taken from this site. So, as I said above, I'm thinking this reference relates to something campaign-specific for those online games.
|
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 01:43:24
Me either. OP, please provide your source, preferably with page numbers. We'll be better able to answer once we can consult the actual citation. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 23:47:28
There is no reference to "soul-blindness" that I can recall in any of the sourcebooks I've read that deal with Netheril (pretty well all of them). |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 19:48:08
quote:
Originally posted by jcdf
What is the 'soul-blindness' that doomed Netheril?
-learning magic from the elves and then abusing it unto trying to steal power from the gods, specifically Mystryl (Mystra's old form)
-enslaving the neighbouring gnomes for thier inventive prowress to the glory of Netheril, instead of the benefit of gnome's own lands
-torturing the Phaerimm for nothing more than the pleasure of Netheril's own vanity
-having the most blessed land in all Toril (all that greenery and water bodies) AND having the best magical skills and items, and yet still treating thier neighbours and the 'have not' citizens so harshly and carelessly, all in a spirit of self-centeredness and ego.
I haven't read the 2e Netheril: Empire of Magic sourcebook, but from what I reckon, I infer that the "soul-blindness" was really Netheril's own continual follies, which eventually lead to thier demise.
In my homebrew, their "soul-blindness" wasn't a spell, but the spirit of how most of them operated in all things, unto destroying themselves. |
| Tyr |
Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 19:04:59
Wasn't there some later reference to something the Phaerimm did to conceal what they were doing when they were leeching the life of early Anauroch?
Don't think it was a soul-blindness, just a concealment of some kind. |
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