| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 10:26:56
I was reading in the Monster Mythology last night and became curious; were the lycanthropic deities found here ever included in the Realms? Most mentions I have seen of religious connections between the werecreatures and the gods were to Selune and Malar. Malar seems right for the wolfweres and jackalweres, with their even more bestial natures, but I have always thought of the natural lycanthropes as being creatures more or less on the sideline of humanity. Some individuals might, in addition to the infected lychanthropes, worship human deities, but for most others I see the racial gods as being more natural.
Any thoughts? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 14:35:01
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Markustay I
Ok, there is much to answer here and as I really hate having to juggle the quote marks this much I will just simplify here if that’s OK?
Concerning homebrew, I was referring to my own posts here, canon isn’t exactly my own focus, so I see little difference between the two anymore.
As for elaborating more; it’s a combination of keeping the tone of the older ones and trying to get into the habit of writing English again and going into a mental dervish dance to write out these things. The fact that I have hardly touched a Realms book the last year doesn’t help. Maybe I will fill out the earlier ones later or incorporate them this into the Un-canon thread which is what I am really working up to restarting here.
Now, Lamia’s. I have never seen the various forms as the same creature. This might be a mistake done by sages in the Survivor states meeting the creatures for the first time in the encroaching desert. The lion-Lamia is more of a savage predator luring others purely for food. Most likely these are magical products of some form or the result of divine whimsy. Maybe they are an angry response from Malar to the creation of the Wemic.
The snakeshaped ones are seducers and erotic beings that in some way are probably tied to the spirit or demonic world. And it might also be the other way around, that they are in some ways the forefathers of the Yuan-ti which were created by breeding with humans. In some way I can’t see thee Yuan-ti creating a creature that were them superior and I can’t see the Lamia not trying to get control and/or revenge if that was the case. Maybe the creation of the Lamia might be the reason for some Yuan-ti groups fall?
As for the goat-Lamia. I don’t have a good answer for that one. Probably some very failed experiments of some sorts, although I really can’t say what the original point was. Maybe a crazed centaur or faerie wanted to create a centaur that could prosper in the mountains.
I know we are not on that different pages, it is more the viewpoint, you more from the top down and me from the other direction. It might even be that your version might be how it really works. To me one of the major problems is that I don’t like the D&D planar world or the terminology used, so I will usually stay away from terms that would be the best ones for a logical explanation (aspects, primordial etc)like the ones you put forth.
I've had a similiar issue with the lamia. It makes no sense to me that the nobles and their cat/goat varieties are blood linked. To me, it makes more sense that maybe the "lamia" was a society who had enslaved other tauric beings. The lamia nobles were the enslavers. To me, they would fit great as coming from faerie/the feywild / the beastlands or some other extraplanar place. Perhaps they held an empire filled with wemics, centaurs, "normal" lamias, etc... and maybe there was an alliance with them and the yak-men, who maybe held enslaved armies of minotaurs.
On that note, yak-men are also found not just in Zakhara, but according to Wolfgang Baur's article in Dragon #241, there's also a contingent of them found "near" the area where Imaskar was. If lamia nobles are also more common in the Raurin, it might make sense that these cultures had some contact (and maybe the Yak-men of Zakhara are those that fled ancient Imaskar). |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 07:35:40
Not happy with this one, but I am for once going to finish a theme here, no matter what.
Pyaray: Sea creatures.
Pyaray is a single spirit in theory more than in reality. Sages of the schools of Hillsfar claim that she is a water spirit that ties herself various creatures of the sea, those that are not under the domain of other spirits. In other words, a form of spiritual lamprey. Because of this she has no common shape or nature, just an idealized form of the creature that are nearest at the time. It should be mentioned that Valzear the Pencrafter, who first wrote of this idea was killed in a strange seal attack a short time later and there has been a rather short lifespan for sages and writers of that city that decide to travel the Moonsea.
She is in some areas seen as a sister of Umberlee; in others she is an elfqueen that forsook her people for the fish and creatures of the sea. Among the sea-otters of the Sword Coast she is the judge of the sea and the mother of food. Selkies have of course taken these beliefs a bit further, but there is much in the belief tied to Pyaray that shows a link between the two species.
In the Sea of Fallen Stars Pyaray is the Great Sturgeon, the holder of all Knowledge and Seer of Stars. The shrines to the spirit is found throughout the Dragon Reach and among the Pirate Islands where it is said to spawn the innumerable creatures of the sea, protected by Umberlee who, even as a great destroyer, sees the need for the life that her realm themes with.
Local legends of the southern coasts also hold that the old deities of magic and their children have learned their arts from Pyaray and that the silver shells of the fish clung to the students from then on, marking those that have studied under the Great Sturgeon. The clergy of Mystra in the Heartlands and in Waterdeep naturally scoff at these stories, but Elminster of Shadowdale only smiles knowingly and the bard Storm Silverhand have more than once been seen communicating with the smaller river sturgeons of the Ashaba.
More sinister stories tie her to the shark spirits of the Sword Coast, to the embraces of Krakens and to the ancient fishmen of the coast lands that are said to worship her as the lover of the lobster headed demon they honour. The sea elves of the west see her as a fickle servant of the Sea Queen, something that is again seen in the fey races’ scepticism to the sturgeon cults of the Sea of Fallen Stars and the numerous elven stories telling of the Eprastar and the help it gave their forefathers against sea-predators such as the Crab-men.
As seen there are few clear aspects or common themes in the faith and stories about Pyaray, except for a tendency to see her as a judge and to a degree as a cannibalistic mother. A deity that blesses her children, and at the same time gives their lives away, both for nourishment and for payment in the form of sacrifice. That might be the reason that her cult has fallen more and more under the domination of the priests of Umberlee along the Sea Coast, something that has made the humans of the region to more and more view the creatures of the sea as enemies.
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| Jorkens |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 09:35:44
Markustay II
Interesting. I have always wondered how the idealistic and Christian-philosophical elements of the Aslan figure was incorporated into the Realms. What does he represent and stand for in the cosmos?
Nobaion as a divine king. I don’t like the hierarchal side to that for my route, it might be a Chondathan story that has spread to civilized regions, but I think it is to “neat” and that the over-creatures would always take the shape of the believers. I can’t see a council of beasts as more than a fable. It is the sort of story that would be created when they stopped asking the animals themselves and just answered as humans or used them as symbols. It could work great in a world created around the subject, but that would be more like the medieval Romance tradition or the moral fable wouldn’t it?
I think the sex of the spirit, as with the gods, would be something that manifested itself after the beliefs of the mortals in question. The same goes for parts of their personality. City-dwellers, hunters, farmers, herders, elves,dwarves etc. They will all look at animals in different ways and thereby give a different form to the divine. Some gods might have been so integrated in one shape that the Realms in general see them with one form and nature, but lesser gods would probably vary more.
As for musings. The more the merrier, (hence my new sig.) I am mostly rambling here so any input or idea is welcome, positive or negative. But the moment someone says “no this is not canon and thereby wrong” it belongs in another thread.
|
| Jorkens |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 09:31:35
Markustay I
Ok, there is much to answer here and as I really hate having to juggle the quote marks this much I will just simplify here if that’s OK?
Concerning homebrew, I was referring to my own posts here, canon isn’t exactly my own focus, so I see little difference between the two anymore.
As for elaborating more; it’s a combination of keeping the tone of the older ones and trying to get into the habit of writing English again and going into a mental dervish dance to write out these things. The fact that I have hardly touched a Realms book the last year doesn’t help. Maybe I will fill out the earlier ones later or incorporate them this into the Un-canon thread which is what I am really working up to restarting here.
Now, Lamia’s. I have never seen the various forms as the same creature. This might be a mistake done by sages in the Survivor states meeting the creatures for the first time in the encroaching desert. The lion-Lamia is more of a savage predator luring others purely for food. Most likely these are magical products of some form or the result of divine whimsy. Maybe they are an angry response from Malar to the creation of the Wemic.
The snakeshaped ones are seducers and erotic beings that in some way are probably tied to the spirit or demonic world. And it might also be the other way around, that they are in some ways the forefathers of the Yuan-ti which were created by breeding with humans. In some way I can’t see thee Yuan-ti creating a creature that were them superior and I can’t see the Lamia not trying to get control and/or revenge if that was the case. Maybe the creation of the Lamia might be the reason for some Yuan-ti groups fall?
As for the goat-Lamia. I don’t have a good answer for that one. Probably some very failed experiments of some sorts, although I really can’t say what the original point was. Maybe a crazed centaur or faerie wanted to create a centaur that could prosper in the mountains.
I know we are not on that different pages, it is more the viewpoint, you more from the top down and me from the other direction. It might even be that your version might be how it really works. To me one of the major problems is that I don’t like the D&D planar world or the terminology used, so I will usually stay away from terms that would be the best ones for a logical explanation (aspects, primordial etc)like the ones you put forth.
Concerning the Utter East. No, these were written after I stopped reading the Wizard forums. Just a couple of questions. As most of the Egyptian gods have a degree of animalistic features, isn’t it logical that they all came from an earlier stage of divine development from the same totemic spirits, that at first guarded their own increased states of being, only letting lesser creatures rise when needed?
But there are a couple of symbolic questions here. As the cat is not that interested in serpents as prey, is it “logical” that she has been charged with such a task, especially when her less than dutiful nature is concerned? My Egyptian mythology is a bit rusty, but maybe Sneel, the FR spirit of the rat is her enemy? Sneel might once have been tied to the snake hunting mongoose, but decided that Set was a safer bet in the struggle and betrayed the other gods?
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| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 02:27:53
Ah, I like that.
With a little thought (and some past personal musing of my own), I've come up with this: You are probably familiar with my 'Overmind' concept - that some divine beings are generated by the racial consciousness of the group. This goes for all creatures, not just sentient ones, and just about everything Jorkens is talking about in this thread can be lumped-into this category.
What if the collective consciousness of those Beastlords - the overmind of overminds - created its own 'pinnacle creature' - the Lord of the Jungle... the King of the Beasts... the top of the food chain of all earthly creatures. Aslan, the Lion King, chieftan of the Beastlords. As the lord of all large cats, the sum of their consciousness, he was merely a beastlord, an exarch. But the other Totems (primal lords) have elevated him to the position of full god.
What his relationship is with Baast/Meerclar/Sharess/Kiga have yet to explore. I am assuming some sort of love/hate relationship - him being the Lord of all feral felines, and her being the queen of all domestic ones. Both have moved well beyond their humble begennings and have many human followers.
Should all the Beast Lords have male and female aspects? Perhaps only the predators? Thats still not perfect - I can picture a bull-headed deity for minotaurs, who started out as the 'essence of Bulls' (male cattle). Bulls have very different temperaments then cows - it would make sense for other creatures to have aspects of each sex.
We also know canonically there was a spider-god (demon?) that Lolth subsumed - Zanassu. Another case of there being both a male and female power of similar nature.
Hope you don't mind these musings, Jorkens - let us know if you want me to stop. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 00:16:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[quote]Originally posted by The Sage
Nobanion as Aslan might have greater powers outside of The Realms, but within the Realms he has been 'losing ground', and once he was had dwindled to a demi-power (only in the Realms), he had to approach another deity for patronage (as per Ao's rules). In fact, this 'deal' may have been struck between the two powers during the ToT - Torm, needing more power for his battle, may have approached the exarch and asked him to lend him his energy.
That's kind of the route I took with Nobanion, actually. Reinforcing Ed's earlier overlaying of Aslan for the Realms. Though I haven't completely incorporated the aspect of Aslan, I have established Nobanion as a major power, with an almost primordial-basis... stretching back to the creation-era, along with Shar, Selune, and Chauntea. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 18:06:03
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You are inspiring me to do my own thread like this soon - one I had planned awhile back, but detailing the day-to-day purposes of the FR churches.
I want this because a thread like that would be instantly useful to me. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 17:42:00
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Thanks. And what here isn't homebrew?
Its more a matter of terminology I personally use; most of the time I will say 'theories' or musings', which means its based on canon with some filler, but when I say 'homebrew' I mean PURE homebrew - a complete fabrication based on (next to) nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
When writing yesterday I started to regret my decision to keep these as short as the ones I wrote three years ago, as I kept coming up with ideas for different regions and variations of the beliefs. I can see the cat pantheon and would probably locate it among the ancient Turmishar (I found that term among my Un-canon notes, is it from an official source?). That leads me to thinking that the mixed cat-creatures could in some way be tied to this; maybe the chimera and the Manticore were created by Netherillian wizards in an attempt to sway the Turmishar of the northern Dragon Coast to bow to them? The Wemics might be a blessed tribe and the Lamia the result of old religious rituals that went wrong (or that were in some way invaded by demons).
This is all great - you should elaborate more.
I have the lamia related to the Yuan-ti (and their experiments), mostly because of the lamia-nobles. This isn't really incompatible with your lore - perhaps the Yuan-ti were the ones that interferred with the religious ritual.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
That being said, I don’t see Meerclar as an aspect of Bast, more a related being or spirit. In general I want to go the opposite direction of you; I want to fragment the beliefs and the gods into innumerable spirits and gods. They might be the same being seen through the eyes of different races and beliefs, but no mortal would know that. The same goes for the whole alignment thing; I don’t want the gods to have alignments, but their religions might have. I want evil gods of magic and good sea goddesses. I want benevolent gods of the fall and evil sun gods etc. And in other areas I want the complete opposite.
We really aren't on different pages here - most of my 'cosmic musings' are not things mortals would know about. Mortals would still consider nearly every single names of every single god a separate entity. In my cosmology, even the dieties - some of whom may be aspects of greater beings - don't even know the "dark of it" (did I say that right? My planer is rusty).
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
But the Rakshasa got me thinking; maybe they are semi-servants of Bast or Nobaion, elements of the deities that show up if they are not placated, such as Nobaions bloodlust and Bast decadent laziness. Maybe they are the symbol of fallen royalty and luxury, the tempters of rulers into a uncaring ruthlessness of selfish gluttony.
I don't know if you ever read any of my K-T/Utter East stuff over at WotC (probably not, considering where it was), but I had my own cross-pantheon spin on things...
A long time ago in a plane far, far away....
The Pharonic (Egyptian) Pantheon is one of the oldest - some of its members date to the time of the Creators, and Ptah is an Ordial (a step above Primordials). During the Godswar¹ the 'children of the Serpent' (Agorath's offspring) attacked other powers and the lesser-beings they created (the Creatori, or 'Creator Races', who were not mortals). The Pharaonic pantheon was losing ground against the Drækons (Agorath's children), and needed allies (there were many 'sides' during the Godswar, not just two). Baast², a primal power (beast-totem), wanted to join the Pharonic pantheon, and offered Ra the services of her own minions, the haska (a group of powerful & warlike Creatori that had taken to worshiping the beast-totems, and Baast in particular). Ra agreed, but did not trust the haska, so as part of the deal ordered that they take the form of their mistress forever more, so that they would be easily identified on the field of battle (and be eternally associated with Baast, forcing responsibility for them on her). They took the title Ra's Haska (a name later corrupted to Rakshasa), and fought with brutal efficiency for the Pharonics until the end of the war.
When Imaar (the First World) was mortally wounded, the Rakshasa approached the Shadvari - ancient beings that existed before the universe itself - and pleaded with them to help put the conflict to an end. They lent their own strength - which stemmed from beyond the universe - to that of a Primordial power (the Mistress of Shadow), and together they extinguished the first sun. As they predicted, the war came to a halt, as all parties realized what they had caused. For their stupidity (some say evil), the Pharonic gods banished the Rakshasa to the newly-created lower planes, as punishment (where they dwelt with its denizens - the Tanar'ri - and eventually became known as demons themselves).
Ra was true to his word, and allowed Baast to remain within his pantheon, but charged her to eternally war against the children of Asgorath, and Set in particular (Set did great harm to the Pharonics during the Godswar). Bast, for her part, must always feel the guilt of what the Rakshasa had wrought, for whenever she looks upon them, she sees her own image (which is what Ra intended all along).
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
And now on to Nuru-ah. I am looking forward to this, and have absolutely no idea how to make it short.
You are inspiring me to do my own thread like this soon - one I had planned awhile back, but detailing the day-to-day purposes of the FR churches.
¹ Details of which I have in other threads. It began with the attacks by the Drækons (Celestial Dragons, or 'Lungs') on others, and ended with the War of Light & Darkness.
² At this time - before entering the Pharonic Pantheon - Baast may have been known as Meerclar - an uncaring, aloof beast-power. She became Baast when she entered their pantheon.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It has mostly to do with my overall changes that I've made to Nobanion in my Realms.
I have Nobanion as an Exarch of Torm, since I think Torm was able to 'call upon' Nobanion's power during the ToT (the lion-headed avatar he appeared as). I thought they might be one and the same, but obviously that can't be, since both deities had canon presences during the ToT. I find the region Nobanion appeared in a bit bizarre, but whatever... canon is canon.
Nobanion as Aslan might have greater powers outside of The Realms, but within the Realms he has been 'losing ground', and once he was had dwindled to a demi-power (only in the Realms), he had to approach another deity for patronage (as per Ao's rules). In fact, this 'deal' may have been struck between the two powers during the ToT - Torm, needing more power for his battle, may have approached the exarch and asked him to lend him his energy. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 16:33:38
Nuru-ah. Cattle
Of all the spirits it seems like Nuru-ah is the most important in the daily lives of humans if you look at Faerun as a whole, whether it is in the shape of the violent Ordug, the bull of the North, the benevolent mother of the Shaar, the phallic Nezze of the Vast or Nuru-ah the brother, found in Tethen areas. Because of this, the beliefs and rituals around the guardian of cattle is too numerous to mention and varies from the gruesome and perverse to the philosophical and poetic. In some areas Nuru-ah is the totem and creator, the mother of all and the protector of children. Other places he is the king of warriors the queen of rebirth or the creator of the stars.
In Impiltur the belief in Nezze is seen as an ancient superstition from less enlightened days and has in the last three generations been suppressed, even though some sages has pointed out earlier writings calling the bull a servant of Torm and the cow a friend of Ilmater. Today most city-dwellers think of the faith as a hedonistic demon-worship.
In Chondath Nuru-ah is a favourite of Chaunthea, who was presented two babies from Talos as an offer of friendship, with the choice of one as a child of her own. One was Nuru-ah, the other was Nobaion. Chaunthea followed her benevolent nature and chose the weak calf and suckled it, unknowing of the rage Talos had inserted in the creature. The milk has afterwards had a soothing effect on the cow, whilst the bull, which has the semen of Talos running through it, is filled with anger and hate. It is also said that Nobaion, who slaved for years under Talos afterwards, never forgave Chaunthea and Nuru-ah for the suffering he was subjected to, still seeks revenge on them both.
Many elven traditions hold that cattle were a product of ancient magic and refuse to have anything to do with them, even going so far as to try to drive the wild cattle out of the forest where they live. This has made the wild bull a distant memory in Cormanthor. This animosity might also have made the bull a symbol of war among the Northmen who have repeatedly clashed with the elves throughout history, with helmets being decorated with boars teeth to symbolise the bull, horns being made into drinking vessels and instruments being formed out of various parts of the animals body. It is also among these people that the highest runes and magic’s tied to the spirit is found, showing the special affection Ordug has for them.
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| Jorkens |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 16:32:58
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oooh! I like the Nobanion-related piece, Jorkens.
After some subtle tweaking, that's going into my Realms. 
Thanks, that’s actually quite a compliment . But the curiosity is killing me; how would you tweak it?
It has mostly to do with my overall changes that I've made to Nobanion in my Realms.
I'll dig out my notebooks and send you the information via private message.
That sounds very interesting, thanks. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 15:22:34
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oooh! I like the Nobanion-related piece, Jorkens.
After some subtle tweaking, that's going into my Realms.
Thanks, that’s actually quite a compliment. But the curiosity is killing me; how would you tweak it?
It has mostly to do with my overall changes that I've made to Nobanion in my Realms.
I'll dig out my notebooks and send you the information via private message. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 12:20:45
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Nice work, Jorkens.
I had briefly considered creating a 'cat pantheon', because the Realms have a LOT of feline-types, and at least 4 cat-gods. I did some of that in the K-T thread, but in the end, I decided to just make Kiga a feral aspect of Baast (similar to what Jorkens did with Meerclar), and Bauhei (Black Leopard) a 'fallen' Rakshasa (a turncoat, actually - I have him pegged as an FR version of Vibhishana from Vedic/Hindu myth).
That slims down the number of 'cat gods' (that we know of) on the big continent. I am sure there are others in Maztica and Katashaka (It is called KATashaka, and the Tabaxi are from that area).
I also have Baast pegged as the originator of the Rakshasa demon-subtype (they used to work for her), but of course, thats homebrew.
Thanks. And what here isn't homebrew?
When writing yesterday I started to regret my decision to keep these as short as the ones I wrote three years ago, as I kept coming up with ideas for different regions and variations of the beliefs. I can see the cat pantheon and would probably locate it among the ancient Turmishar (I found that term among my Un-canon notes, is it from an official source?). That leads me to thinking that the mixed cat-creatures could in some way be tied to this; maybe the chimera and the Manticore were created by Netherillian wizards in an attempt to sway the Turmishar of the northern Dragon Coast to bow to them? The Wemics might be a blessed tribe and the Lamia the result of old religious rituals that went wrong (or that were in some way invaded by demons).
That being said, I don’t see Meerclar as an aspect of Bast, more a related being or spirit. In general I want to go the opposite direction of you; I want to fragment the beliefs and the gods into innumerable spirits and gods. They might be the same being seen through the eyes of different races and beliefs, but no mortal would know that. The same goes for the whole alignment thing; I don’t want the gods to have alignments, but their religions might have. I want evil gods of magic and good sea goddesses. I want benevolent gods of the fall and evil sun gods etc. And in other areas I want the complete opposite.
But the Rakshasa got me thinking; maybe they are semi-servants of Bast or Nobaion, elements of the deities that show up if they are not placated, such as Nobaions bloodlust and Bast decadent laziness. Maybe they are the symbol of fallen royalty and luxury, the tempters of rulers into a uncaring ruthlessness of selfish gluttony.
And now on to Nuru-ah. I am looking forward to this, and have absolutely no idea how to make it short.
|
| Jorkens |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 12:17:54
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oooh! I like the Nobanion-related piece, Jorkens.
After some subtle tweaking, that's going into my Realms.
Thanks, that’s actually quite a compliment. But the curiosity is killing me; how would you tweak it? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 01:09:51
Nice work, Jorkens.
I had briefly considered creating a 'cat pantheon', because the Realms have a LOT of feline-types, and at least 4 cat-gods. I did some of that in the K-T thread, but in the end, I decided to just make Kiga a feral aspect of Baast (similar to what Jorkens did with Meerclar), and Bauhei (Black Leopard) a 'fallen' Rakshasa (a turncoat, actually - I have him pegged as an FR version of Vibhishana from Vedic/Hindu myth).
That slims down the number of 'cat gods' (that we know of) on the big continent. I am sure there are others in Maztica and Katashaka (It is called KATashaka, and the Tabaxi are from that area).
I also have Baast pegged as the originator of the Rakshasa demon-subtype (they used to work for her), but of course, thats homebrew. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 00:35:37
Oooh! I like the Nobanion-related piece, Jorkens.
After some subtle tweaking, that's going into my Realms. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 16:04:18
Nobaion: Lions and strong beasts.
Again, as with Lurue, there this one has been placed clearly within the FR lore. And even before that he is seen as Aslan. Not much to do then if you don’t want to go against canon. Then again…
Nobaion is mostly worshipped around the Vilhon Reach, seen more as a dangerous spirit to be placated in other areas where great cats are prominent. The oldest stories tie him to the ancient Chondathan tribes moving into the Shining Plains, where one can still find carved totemic symbols showing the lion as the father of men and the originator of the peoples. These beliefs has developed along with the various peoples with the lion presented as a symbol of royalty by all Chondahans whether the worship of Nobaion has survived or not.
The Tethen tribes and the Turmishar have always revered lion spirits too, but see them as servants of other gods or as degenerate, cursed Wemic’s. Some stories tell of the servants of Targus in the Orsraun trying to conquer Neehiic the Cave Lion in the name of their god, only to be chased away by the Protector of the Gulthmere, but even in these Nobaion demand a heavy tribute from the local nobles and their herds.
Later Chondathan tales, created by singers inspired by the increased contact with the Turmishar and their dancing cults, tell a cycle of stories around his wooing of Sharess, ending with her being conquered and given to the Chondathan kings as an advisor and servant. Later the treacherous goddess sent her servant Meerclar to lead the cats away from their true place among Nobaions servants, something that has made the cat into a subject of superstition and (in rural areas) fear.
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| Jorkens |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 16:54:42
Nnuuurrrr's's: Insects
Nnuuurrrr's's is originally a demon and as a demon he is seen as an enemy by the other Beasts and the gods created various other beings to feed on Nnuuurrrr's's children.
Nnuuurrrr's's is originally a demon that is said to have been existed before even the dragons. There are many stories about his battles with the gods (which one varies from people to people), but the end result is always that he got defeated by commanding the winds to tear him apart. His giant body was fractured and the parts were spread throughout existence, each part giving birth to a tiny creature bent on evil and revenge. They scuttle through the world, trying to collect themselves again and thereby form their masters body again. His worshippers see it as their duty to try to unite as much of their masters essence as possible, traditionally by manipulating wizards into creating various forms of giant insects. A priest named Chechemeth was especially successful in getting arrogant Netherese wizards into competing in this, creating creatures that can still be met in the jungles of the Underdark and in Cormanthor.
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| Jorkens |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 16:53:58
Meerclar: Cats.
Meerclar is mostly revered in Turmish today, as the country is the stronghold of Sharessan worship. She is originally an aspect of the Sharess’s indulgent and evil nature that got bored and settled among men as an observer and intermediate of the goddess. If given the right respect and offerings, she will be placated enough to forget her darker aspects and allow her children to serve humans as killers.
Some ties with Selune have also been suggested, but most see her as having ties to Shar, making the cat a traditional symbol of indulgent evil among Chondathan peoples and the various cultures of the north. These beliefs are not that common today. In Waterdeep it is told that Meerclar is born from Selune and given to her sons to combat Sneels servants. This story is probably originally of Tethen origin and is here it is told that she is the product of a drunken bet made between the Dreamer and Lurua about who could do the best job of satisfying Malar. The story varies with the audience and teller, but the result is that the next morning the tree deities were met by a grinning creature that presented itself as Meerclar, their daughter. One of Malars friends, the skulking son of the Shadowlord, Sneel came upon the four and started to snicker at the whole situation, making Meerclar screech with rage and attack him.
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| Jakk |
Posted - 12 Sep 2009 : 03:59:58
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The werejackals were detailed in Ravenloft ( I cant remember which appendix right now) in 2ed.
They were detailed in the third appendix.
Thanks, Jorkens and Sage! I lost track of this scroll for a few days (mostly thanks to lack of sleep).  I've also been busy with my Realmslore creations, and I've reminded myself (after being out of university for almost ten years) why it's called "exhaustive" research of a subject (in this case, Norse myth)... I'm exhausted. Or, at least my brain is...  On topic: I have all kinds of goodness (and evilness) planned for my Anchorome... as I previously mentioned (possibly not in this scroll), there will be werebeasts.  That's all I have for now; I need to organize my research into something coherent now. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 17:00:01
quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixTalion
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
But it is easy to imagine there being an older deity of the spiders, an animalistic creature who has lost her power in the Underdark to the Demon Queen. This Spider queen might still have the loyalty of the surface spiders and of numerous intelligent creatures bearing the blood of spiders, such as Ettercaps and Araena's. Stories can now tie her to the beliefs of Talona, Shar or even (in a more benevolent visage) to Selune.
The name of this goddess might have been mixed with the queen of the drow, making the two identical to most inhabitants of Faerun. That does not mean that there cant be small, hidden groups in the ancient city's of the southern Sword Coast who still worship her in hiding, making sacrifices to enormous intelligent spiders who as little interest in being noticed by the drow or their ruler. Secret societies can grow out of these, seeing themselves as predators working through a net of hidden passages and sewers in various city's.
Ooh. I like this a lot -- the idea that Araushnee usurped the position of an older Underdark goddess when she became Lolth.
Thanks.
I had planned to do a quick run-trough of all the beast-cults mentioned in Dragon 54, but it seems like I have reached another burnout, in addition to working on something for a world of my own, so we will see if I ever finish this. Unfortunately that isn't exactly my speciality. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 05:21:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the New Moon Pact, an organization of good aligned lycanthropes who appose the work of Shar in the name of Selûne. The Pact appears in Mistress of the Night by Don Bassingthwaite and Dave Gross. The Pact was turned into a prestige class in Bestiary of the Realms: Volume 2 by Thomas M. Costa and Eric L. Boyd. It was available online at one point. Does anyone have a link for it?
Yes and no... The file was on Eric Boyd's website, and is currently unavailable while his site is being redesigned.
And there has been talk about storing these particular PDFs here at Candlekeep. But I haven't had the opportunity to discuss it any further with either Tom or Eric.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 03:55:35
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the New Moon Pact, an organization of good aligned lycanthropes who appose the work of Shar in the name of Selûne. The Pact appears in Mistress of the Night by Don Bassingthwaite and Dave Gross. The Pact was turned into a prestige class in Bestiary of the Realms: Volume 2 by Thomas M. Costa and Eric L. Boyd. It was available online at one point. Does anyone have a link for it?
Yes and no... The file was on Eric Boyd's website, and is currently unavailable while his site is being redesigned. |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 01:41:18
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the New Moon Pact, an organization of good aligned lycanthropes who appose the work of Shar in the name of Selûne. The Pact appears in Mistress of the Night by Don Bassingthwaite and Dave Gross. The Pact was turned into a prestige class in Bestiary of the Realms: Volume 2 by Thomas M. Costa and Eric L. Boyd. It was available online at one point. Does anyone have a link for it? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 00:28:21
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The werejackals were detailed in Ravenloft ( I cant remember which appendix right now) in 2ed.
They were detailed in the third appendix. |
| PhoenixTalion |
Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 23:36:25
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
But it is easy to imagine there being an older deity of the spiders, an animalistic creature who has lost her power in the Underdark to the Demon Queen. This Spider queen might still have the loyalty of the surface spiders and of numerous intelligent creatures bearing the blood of spiders, such as Ettercaps and Araena's. Stories can now tie her to the beliefs of Talona, Shar or even (in a more benevolent visage) to Selune.
The name of this goddess might have been mixed with the queen of the drow, making the two identical to most inhabitants of Faerun. That does not mean that there cant be small, hidden groups in the ancient city's of the southern Sword Coast who still worship her in hiding, making sacrifices to enormous intelligent spiders who as little interest in being noticed by the drow or their ruler. Secret societies can grow out of these, seeing themselves as predators working through a net of hidden passages and sewers in various city's.
Ooh. I like this a lot -- the idea that Araushnee usurped the position of an older Underdark goddess when she became Lolth. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 11:28:23
The werejackals were detailed in Ravenloft ( I cant remember which appendix right now) in 2ed.
There are several references to werelions serving Nobaion in Faiths & Avatars. Rather interesting as the Lawful Evil nature of these creatures would not make them natural allies of the Lion GOd.
As for the Wolfweres (and to a degree the Jackalweres) there are several possibilities. As you said Daragor is a good alternative. Or you could use the idea that Eshebala created them to oppose her brother and rival. As her werefoxes have a canine nature themselves this is not impossible.
A last alternative could be to have Malar as the patron of these two races, as they are closer to the beast. Daragor might have threaded to close to the portfolio of the Beast-god, making him angry enough to created creatures that by their natures oppose the Werewolves.
Even Nobaion or Lurue could be the originators of the two. Their idea could have been to give intelligence and magic to some creatures that they saw as potential guardians against the creatures of Daragor and Malar, only to have the magic go horribly wrong in some way with the predatory nature of the wolf and jackal overruling all other qualities. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 21:56:08
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Thanks for the information and comments.
I have been scribbling a bit and am just going to throw out some loose ideas. Now, bare in mind that this is just a bit of brainstorming and there are probably a hundred canon reasons why this does not go together.
The gods of the Lycanthropes found in the Monster Mythology are:
Sqerrik; the god of thievery, disguise, concealment and wererats.
Balador; god of protection, fraternity and werebears.
Ferrix; the goddess of play, curiosity and weretigers.
Daragor; the god of marauding beasts, blood, pain, werewolves and seawolves.
Eshebala: Vanity, charm, greed cunning and werefoxes.
The more I think of it the more I am sure I want to keep them in the Realms. I will probably just keep them as patron spirits of the werecreatures, worshipped in addition to the common Realmsian gods of whatever pantheon they feel the closest ties to.
I prefer to keep things as polytheistic as possible in my Realms and am a bit uncomfortable with the idea of each individual choosing one patron. I know the idea had been there since the Grey box, but still. The nature of the deities and the relationship between clergy and believers of different gods will wary from region to region and from race to race. <chop>
I agree entirely with your wishes to keep things as polytheistic as possible. More gods = more interesting, imho. I am keeping the werecreature gods with their full divine status (whether lesser powers or demipowers, undecided as yet). I like the idea of Nobanion as the god of werelions. I would also make Daragor the deity of wolfweres (I know the two species hate each other, and that fits with Daragor's portfolio). I'm not sure what to do with werecrocodiles; the Mulhorandi pantheon (including Sebek and Set) is gone in my Realms, so I may take one of the World Serpent aspects here, probably Sseth (the takeover of Sseth by Set did not happen in my Realms); other suggestions are welcome. I also like the idea of making Iakhovas a demipower and the god of weresharks and sharkweres (see this scroll for more on Iakhovas; I'd like to know more about his very early existence, if anybody has anything there it would be much appreciated). I'm also trying to fit the werejackals and jackalweres in somehow (not sure if the werejackal was ever given stats in any edition).
Anyway, I've said enough for one post. To recap: Jorkens, keep the separate werecreature gods. I like the idea that infected werecreatures worship their base race gods as well; it only makes sense, imho, and as Ed has said, people of the Realms often pay homage to multiple deities, depending on the situation, unless they are members of a specific deity's priesthood (and even then, if the other deity invoked is an ally of the priest's deity, it's generally not a bad thing). |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 11:11:48
Lurue: Intelligent and talking beasts.
Again, a deity with so strong a canon position in the Realms that it is difficult for me to actually put her into an alternative context.
Stories could tie her to both the Seelie court and to the horse-god Besparr. Besparr could even be seen as the mate of Lurue in some regions and horse-farmers of the Shining plains might claim that their stock can trace their lineage back to the offspring of these two deities. These would mostly be legends though. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 11:08:26
Lolth: The queen of spiders.
I will let this one alone, as anything I wrote here would conflict with canon in any number of ways.
But it is easy to imagine there being an older deity of the spiders, an animalistic creature who has lost her power in the Underdark to the Demon Queen. This Spider queen might still have the loyalty of the surface spiders and of numerous intelligent creatures bearing the blood of spiders, such as Ettercaps and Araena's. Stories can now tie her to the beliefs of Talona, Shar or even (in a more benevolent visage) to Selune.
The name of this goddess might have been mixed with the queen of the drow, making the two identical to most inhabitants of Faerun. That does not mean that there cant be small, hidden groups in the ancient city's of the southern Sword Coast who still worship her in hiding, making sacrifices to enormous intelligent spiders who as little interest in being noticed by the drow or their ruler. Secret societies can grow out of these, seeing themselves as predators working through a net of hidden passages and sewers in various city's.
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| Jorkens |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 11:06:42
Thanks Quale. Thats one bit of great Realmslore i have missed.
And here comes some more Zakhara related bits.
Hlyyaak: Lord of camels.
OK, so this one is a bit difficult as I don't like the idea of the Bedine, making it a bit difficult to include camels in the northern Realms. It is easily judged that a wizard has gated the animals in from other areas, but I have some difficulty seeing the Beast cult following with them. .
But camels could still be used in the southern Shar and among the eastern nomads who use the more cold resistant two-humped camels as transport animals. Even in the lands north of Thar nomads might make use of camels.
Where the cult is known, Hlyyaak is seen as a benevolent and wise helper of men who live in constant movement through harsh regions. But he is also stubborn to a fault and has been known to at a whim abandon his followers if he feels pressured. Interestingly enough, there seems to be a constant theme of the quest among the different groups who pay homage to the king of camels. He will at various times request his followers to make long travels, seeking knowledge or treasure he claims are needed to keep the land safe from the four gods of the winds, as he call them. Some think this to mean the four gods of the elements, other take it to be a reference to Shaundakul, who he feels is neglecting to give him the honour he deserves.
In Zakhara there are several stories, even among the most conservative enlightened nomads, of the Grandfather camel and his descendants. These "royal" camels have the wisdom and morals of men and can trace their line back to the favoured camel of the Loregiver himself. The Grandfather camel is a central figure in short moral-tales and children's tales. In the larger city's he can even be seen as a central figure in the plays put up by puppeteers in the bazaars and marketplaces.
Most likely this Grandfather camel is a "de-deified" version of Hlyyaak, who is still worshipped by unenlightened nomads of the northern deserts and by the hill men of the Furrowed Mountains. Many of the hill men have a natural fear of all large bovine creatures, thanks to the Yakmen, which gives the camel an even stronger position than it would logically have in their lives. Several Moralist priest, newly arrived from The League of the Pantheon has been encouraging the Mameluks of Qudra to stage raids against the settlements of the Alaziir valley, where a flock of white camels regarded as sacred by the hill men, can be found. Both General Adun Abd al-Amin of the Faithful (interested in restoring his reputation) and the impetuous General Kalin Abd al-Bas of the Valiant has shown interest in the idea.
Further south there is little left of the direct religious belief in Hlyyaak, although one can easily find old statues and figurines in ruins that testify to the range of his followers in earlier days. Because of this there might still be smaller groups in the far south and south-east that still cling to the old days, but this is still unclear.
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