| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Neil Bishop |
Posted - 20 May 2009 : 19:17:18
I'm about to start a 4E campaign set in Cormyr and want to use some batrachi ruins in due course (including as the Temple of Chaos in my revision of the Keep on the Borderlands). How would you describe batrachi magic? Is it based on the Far Realms or something else?
Thanks in advance for any input anyone may have. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Nightseer |
Posted - 25 May 2009 : 02:25:47
quote:
Originally posted by Draezen
quote:
Originally posted by Nightseer
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
...the leShay who now have resurgent kingdoms in the 4E realms...
Really? Where? Thanks. 
It's called Sarifal, as described here. Some additional information can also be found in the FRCG.
 Thanks. I knew I should have read that before. Thanks again. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 20:33:32
@ Brian: Considered!
The impact the batrachi have on the Realms is not tangible now, unless you consider the "world-split" to which their work seem to have lead. And the current reappearance of Abeir-stuff within Realmspace.
As I wrote, it is not exactly the batrachi I am annoyed by, but the theme of an "ever older ever more dangerous thing" used to described current issues. Issues needed to explain in-setting going-on's of world shaking proportions. |
| Draezen |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 15:24:29
quote:
Originally posted by Nightseer
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
...the leShay who now have resurgent kingdoms in the 4E realms...
Really? Where? Thanks.
It's called Sarifal, as described here. Some additional information can also be found in the FRCG. |
| Nightseer |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 21:20:54
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
...the leShay who now have resurgent kingdoms in the 4E realms...
Really? Where? Thanks. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 16:19:43
I just want to make sure we're both on the same page Zanan. Consider these points:- The batrachi have no more prominence in 4E than they do in any other edition. Their handful of mentions in the FRCG are all historical. Compare that to the Sarrukh and the leShay who now have resurgent kingdoms in the 4E realms, the batrachi still remain an enigmatic species from Toril's past.
- Extremely few remnants of Batrachi civilization exist on Faerūn today, but the Bukhara Spires are not one of them. The Imaskari crafted the spires. They are based on batrachi principles of magic, but they are wholly Imaskari in design. So really, the oldest spires are about 8,000 years old and the few that exist today would remain buried under the deserts of Raurin or other ruins scattered around that region. Unless High Imaskar of 4E deigns to rebuild them, which we have no indication of yet.
- And just so we're clear, the small bits of lore that do exist on the batrachi were primarily designed by Gray Richardson and myself with *zero* knowledge of the 4E Realms. As you now know, the batrachi were introduced in 1st-Edition and their brief mentions in the 4E FRCG are due to my fascination with the creator races and nothing more.
- As to a "new ancient" race appearing in 5E? If I have any say in the matter at all, it will would be another creator race I've long yearned to learn more about, the Aearee!
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 15:08:09
I don't think it's as much that no one noticed these ruins and spires, as much as they were in out of the way places and/or people simply didn't know anything about them. If you know something is there, even if it has no visible reason for being there, if it has no effect on anything around it, it's not as noteworthy.
As for the batrachi, there is that one 1E reference. I don't think there was any real lore on them until 3E, though. Anything in 2E would have likely been just a passing reference ("these ruins may be of batrachi origin"), but I don't even recall that much... The main reason I even knew of the reference in REF5 Lords of Darkness is because when we did the original Trivia Challenge, I found that bit while looking for some obscure lore to stump people with (I believe my question was what was on the scrolls being guarded). |
| Zanan |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 12:16:15
Good ... I took up one of the books which go back farthest in detailed FR lore, Serpent Kingdoms*, and there is indeed a sidebar listing and "detailing" the Creator Races. So the batrachi have been around indeed. But they as such were not the main reason for the "rant".
*The entry on the sarrukh. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 11:31:17
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Zanan, I'm not sure what to make of your post. I'm sorry you don't share the same love of Realms history that I do, but the batrachi have been around since 1st-Edition, and as one of the creator races I find them quite intriguing.
T'was a mini rant*, as stated. And surely nothing personal against the designers of them folk. I've been around in Realmspace since the mid-nineties and have never ever heard of the Batrachi (shouldn't they been capitalised?) - which could be my "fault". Haven't come accross them in any FR book I own or have seen before either. So this seem to be quite obscure knowledge.*
quote:
I admit you lost me on what '3E/RE' stands for.
D&D 3E splits into 3.0E and the revised 3E, i.e. 3,5E - otherwise known as 3RE(vised). Something for those who don't like to use ",0" or ",5" when writing. Of course, the 3,75E is called "Pathfinder" and not of WotC's making.
quote:
I'm not sure what your issue is with the Imaskari having ties to batrachi magic. There was nothing sudden about it. Creator race ruins and lore are scattered throughout Faerūn. Does Netheril's use of creator race magic also irritate you? BTW, the Imaskari are also tied to the Fey creator race as well.
(Also ->: * ) The point here is that some (AFAIK) obscure race is thrown into the new book / setting and made responsible for or having an influence on some now-happening world shaking events, as well as being (somewhat suddenly too) linked to a nigh mythic race of humans which (again rather suddenly (i.e. middle-/late 3RE)) make an re-appearance within the setting.
Now, new lore is always fine and always welcome. Yet, with the above you (I assume) would and will find it hard to believe that there are (once more) suddenly these spires et al standing about (whom no-one has noticed these past 25,000odd years ... while searching for Elven and Sarrukh ruins?) and the just re-emerged Imaskari (of all people)
have still ties to this? People who entered the Realms 22.000odd years after the Batrachi went away? And the High Magic wielding elves missed that altogether for the better part of 20,000 years? Unless, of course, they are only to be found in those Abeir-into-Toril transported regions, that is.
See, I'm not saying that this is all too far fetched, but that some of this has a mild taste of deus-ex-machina to it. Hence I "wondered" what new race et al may appear when 5E is happening unto us, something that may be used to explain the future changes.
And I'm not even referring to this new 4E primordials stuff here when "calmly" ranting along. They and the Abeir stuff had to be explained somewhere and fair enough. This is, essentially, something that will never effect the casual gamer in modern day FR-space, i.e. ancient flair stuff. It is different with this Batrachi lore though.
Where can I read more about the Batrachi anyways? 1E et al?
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| Markustay |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 04:10:26
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Cool picture. This is closer to how I envision Bukhara Spires, btw. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/scenery/gfaydark-spires.jpg
Exactly how I pictured them... and how I described the one over near Maztica in my Sea Portals CK article. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 03:35:33
Huh. Sort of like an inverted version of the Air Force Memorial.
Air Force Memorial
When I first moved to the DC area I thought that was the most ugly, pretentious, and pointless memorial I'd ever seen. It's grown on me a little since then, but it should definitely be seen in daylight. They have flood lights to illuminate it at night, and they really emphasize each of the metal pieces that make up the plating. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 02:51:56
Cool picture. This is closer to how I envision Bukhara Spires, btw. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/scenery/gfaydark-spires.jpg
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Bukhara Spires?
http://www.elenatour.uz/photo/uzb/pages/Uzbekistan.%20Bukhara.%20Chor-Minor.html
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| Brian R. James |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 02:42:39
Zanan, I'm not sure what to make of your post. I'm sorry you don't share the same love of Realms history that I do, but the batrachi have been around since 1st-Edition, and as one of the creator races I find them quite intriguing.
I admit you lost me on what '3E/RE' stands for.
I'm not sure what your issue is with the Imaskari having ties to batrachi magic. There was nothing sudden about it. Creator race ruins and lore are scattered throughout Faerūn. Does Netheril's use of creator race magic also irritate you? BTW, the Imaskari are also tied to the Fey creator race as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
One thing that does not stop to amaze me is the appearance of ever older and ever mightier races/people/nations, i.e. tools to explain this or that world-shaking event or happening. 3E/RE saw the sarrukh who as such did nothing to influence modern day Faerūn. Here now, just ahead of the in-3RE-pre-extended timeline, another people pop up and are important for the re-emergence of primordeals (aye right) and Abeir and whatnot. I dread the day when the 5E Realms happen unto us and the known history will be expanded a little further ... back.
A ... BTW, I find it quite unfeasible that knowledge of 25,000odd years ago suddenly pops up in a society and no-one has ever heard of it before. Especially a human society. I mean, what else did the Imaskari get linked too? Ach well, if you simply start off with the 4E FRCG you need not to worry about the above "mini"-rant and just plug away ...
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| Hoondatha |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 01:07:19
That's a good find, Wooly. I've skimmed that book, but never sat down and read it cover to cover and didn't know about that passage. But you're right, you have three of the Creator Races mentioned, two of them named, a pair of Nether Scrolls, and the fallen kingdom beneath Anauroch named all in a paragraph. With Serpent Kingdoms out, we can change the "lizard man" mummy to a sarrukh with little difficulty.
It's nice to see that a lot of what came out in 3e was grounded in older lore. We can argue about how it was enacted, but the foundations were all there. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 19:42:59
I've got no problems with the idea of ancient creator races... There's been hints around here and there in existing Realmslore, going back many years. In fact, all the way back in 1E we have a reference to the batrachi and the Aearee, to the lizard men being a descendent of one of the Creator Races, and of the Nether Scrolls being a creation of those Creator Races. It's all in REF5 Lords of Darkness (the 1E book by that name).
So none of that is a retcon, the way the primordials and a twin world are. |
| Neil Bishop |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 19:34:03
Thanks for those ideas, too, everyone. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 18:06:18
That's a point, but on the other hand, how much did we know about Imaskar before 3e? Essentially nothing. That it was powerful, that they brought in the people who eventually became Mulhorandi and Untheric, that they blocked the gods and were then destroyed by them. Not much else. The gods did such a good job wiping that place out that essentially all of its lore was lost, and it's not hard to imagine that the people of the Old Empires would be actively hostile to its re-discovery (and would destroy any Imaskari records they could find). Much the same thing happened to Raumathar, which was the only nation to draw much from the Imaskari.
So, if they were going to connect the Creator Races to a human empire, I think Imaskar is absolutely the best one. There's already an info void, and most if not all of the information about Imaskar will never reach the ears of PC's. Even now, we (as FR fans) don't know much about Imaskar, so if someone wants to tie the batrachi into them, it's easy to do and just as easy to ignore. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 16:51:39
One thing that does not stop to amaze me is the appearance of ever older and ever mightier races/people/nations, i.e. tools to explain this or that world-shaking event or happening. 3E/RE saw the sarrukh who as such did nothing to influence modern day Faerūn. Here now, just ahead of the in-3RE-pre-extended timeline, another people pop up and are important for the re-emergence of primordeals (aye right) and Abeir and whatnot. I dread the day when the 5E Realms happen unto us and the known history will be expanded a little further ... back.
A ... BTW, I find it quite unfeasible that knowledge of 25,000odd years ago suddenly pops up in a society and no-one has ever heard of it before. Especially a human society. I mean, what else did the Imaskari get linked too? Ach well, if you simply start off with the 4E FRCG you need not to worry about the above "mini"-rant and just plug away ...
Bukhara Spires?
http://www.elenatour.uz/photo/uzb/pages/Uzbekistan.%20Bukhara.%20Chor-Minor.html |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 16:34:54
To build upon what Brian said, I'd like to expand on the concept (to better-fit certain other lore).
The Batrachi were masters of trans-locational magics, which lends itself to both teleporating (Gates and Portals) and also to summonings (by opening up said Gates to other planes).
The Batarachi themselves were very 'fluid' in their thoughts and their outlook, and looked at both the physical form and the planer-relationships of the universe as malleable and inter-connected. They were all about growth through 'change', and that applied to their bodies and to the world around them.
So when you think of Batrachi, think in terms of how they would have thought - how to brings disparate things together. When they encounter an obstacle, they do not go around it, they try to figure-out how to turn the roadblock into a new path. |
| Neil Bishop |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 15:13:57
Thanks for your reply. I like the batrachi/Imaskari link.
Yes- read that article already. Great work. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 15:12:25
The batrachi were great practitioners of summoning magic. The ancient Imaskari studied batrachi rituals discovered etched on glassteel tablets, which led the artificers to construct massive two-way portals known as Bukhara Spires.
It may interest you to read Gray Richardson's fantastic article in the batrachi in Candlekeep Compendium III. http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/ |
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