| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| swifty |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 09:37:02
im curious to find out because i love the city so much but have read contrasting stats for its size.i really wanted to know how many miles from the northern tip of the sea ward it was to the southern most point of dock ward.population is another thing.i have read that its the home to as many as 1 million people but looking at the old atlas of the realms from the early 90s it just dosent seem big enough to hold that many people. |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2009 : 00:27:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
I was going to say it freaking HUGE! 
@ THO and the furry one too. Thank you.   I really didnt know that about Waterdeep or Ed. Very interesting ideas about what goes on outside the city durning the summers. I guess some of the Anti- ED Propaganda got dispelled about the Realms ripping off RW places. It wasn't Ed it was TSR and others? 
BRIMSTONE
TSR bolted a lot of stuff onto the Realms, including much of the stuff that is clearly real-world analogs.
And Ed has touched on this before, several times in his replies. If your interested Brimstone, you should read them, as they help to better understand the process of development re: the Realms during the days of 2e and the "add-ons" period. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 22:09:01
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
I was going to say it freaking HUGE!
@ THO and the furry one too. Thank you. I really didnt know that about Waterdeep or Ed. Very interesting ideas about what goes on outside the city durning the summers. I guess some of the Anti- ED Propaganda got dispelled about the Realms ripping off RW places. It wasn't Ed it was TSR and others?
BRIMSTONE
TSR bolted a lot of stuff onto the Realms, including much of the stuff that is clearly real-world analogs. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 20:47:10
I was going to say it freaking HUGE!
@ THO and the furry one too. Thank you. I really didnt know that about Waterdeep or Ed. Very interesting ideas about what goes on outside the city during the summers. I guess some of the Anti- ED Propaganda got dispelled about the Realms ripping off RW places. It wasn't Ed it was TSR and others?
BRIMSTONE |
| Patrakis |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 17:57:23
Very interesting thread...
Thank you. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 17:22:16
Also, a large percentage of the population is represented by demi-humans, and most of the Halflings and Gnomes live in the undercity known as 'The Warrens', probably along with not a few Dwarves.
Mount Waterdeep itself is a Giant Undercity, before you even get 'too deep' and enter Undermountain. The intricate and ancient Sewer-system is yet another subterranean region where one can find temples and thieves guilds and all sorts of non-humans dwelling.
Also, MANY of the Mage-Towers are MUCH larger on the inside then they are on the outside - Khelben's is like an apartment complex!
You can't think in RW human terms - a city in a fantasy world grows in many directions that ours can't. There are even some individuals that would count as population for both Waterdeep and Skullport (or maybe all of Skullport is included in those figures).
Lastly, there are two Waterdeeps - the city, and the political entity, and as has been said, the political entity includes many of the nearby towns and villages (but that only covers the population above the 100,000 mark). However, the entire extended Noble Family - many of whom live on estates outside of the city - are counted against the city itself, because the family maintains smaller residences within the city, wherein a few family members can always be found. Add-in all of their retainers, and thats a faily large clump of people who are never all within the walls at the same time.
Going a step further, trading costers are counted as part of the city, even if most of the members (and their hirelings) spend nine months out of the year away from Waterdeep itself. This would also include Waterdeep's navy - both military and commercial - which spends most of its time on the water along the Swordcoast - but all those sailors, soldiers, officiers, and merchants are still part of Waterdeep's population. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 17:07:43
So then, the size we have listed for Waterdeep (in terms of distance) is correct? |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 16:50:34
Yes! Just to reiterate: NOTHING in the Realms designed by Ed is DIRECTLY based on anything in our real world. Inspired by many real-world sources and real-world fantasy concepts, but copied, no. Never.
When one encounters overtly "Mayan" or "Egyptian" or "Arabian" elements of the Realms (or even "Hollywood-Arabian"), one is looking at the work of another designer (perhaps being "worked" by Ed to try to weave it more closely into the Realms).
And as I read over this thread, I find that many posters are overlooking details of Waterdeep: it's a CARAVAN and PORT city, folks; the meadows east of the city, and the walled area at the north end, are "camped full" most of the summer months. Also, guild HQ tend to be "home" to scores (sometimes hundreds) of novices, and noble villas have "live-in" servant staff again numbering in the scores to hundreds (the "upper floor" of most stables and carriage sheds, between the "hay loft" and the stalls/slips below, is living quarters for servants - - and the servants of visitors, too). Castle Waterdeep is home to many civic officials, and Piergeiron's Palace houses many more. The various festhalls and rooming houses in Dock Ward and Castle Ward and South Ward "put up" visiting sailors and traders by the cumulative thousands, and so on...
It is flat-out wrong to think of Waterdeep in terms of modern population density (detached house with family). Think more "a dozen people sharing a bedroom," and you'll be closer the mark. Also, the "average" city building is cellar and ground floor shops, with two or three floors (four floors in some areas, e.g. North Ward)of apartments above that.
(This is a topic that has been discussed before, several times.)
love to all,
THO |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 15:06:55
It's not based on any real-world city. Ed didn't do stuff like that. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 14:17:05
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
has it ever been stated what city waterdeep is based on.its location on the sea reminds me of my home city of liverpool but obhiously its not that.but what about london?
Seems as good a guess as any to me.
Ed cites the following in the intro to the 2E City of Splendors Campaign Guide as inspiration:
"A place whose wealth and power rivaled imperial Rome, whose sophisitication oustripped Paris, whose colour and eccentricities were a match for old London. A place were ships docked that hailed from half a world away"
"A place with a whiff of Juvenal's Satires and an echo of Sutcliff's The Armourers House, a place built on ghostwalks in York, strolls in Shrewsbury and the back streets of Oxford"
So yes Liverpool would fit quite nicely as a massive maritime city full of people from all over the world, as would London and several dozen other port cities of our world. In fact the best bits from all those and more bundled together makes Waterdeep what it is
Cheers
Damian |
| swifty |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 13:37:47
thanks for the info everyone.while stayin on topic has it ever been stated what city waterdeep is based on.its location on the sea reminds me of my home city of liverpool but obhiously its not that.but what about london.ive always imagined castle ward to be like central london and dock ward to the east end.i can just picture the locals of the area talking with cockney accents.working class london if youre unsure.if youve ever heard the actor ray winstone youll know what i mean. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 12:21:01
quote:
Originally posted by Ikki
A bit over 100 people in each of those 30*40 feet houses that might be 2 stories high...
I doubt they fit in even when standing :D
More like 5 stories high plus cellars. There are lots of tenament blocks in Waterdeep.
And plenty of very poor folks will sleep in the City of the Dead and other open spaces, provided with straw by the watch for warmth.
My mum was one of 7 children (5 brothers and a sister) all her brothers slept in the same bedroom when they were growing up in the 1920 & 30's (a typical small terrace bedroom 14 foot X 12 foot or thereabouts).
Folks have always crammed themselves into small spaces. I doubt most Waterdhavian families have more than 2 rooms to call home, with some shared space in the tenanment block that all families use (washroom for clothes etc).
Just my thoughts
Damian
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| Ikki |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 21:25:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Wait, only 3 miles for 100,000 people? Estimating that from east to west is about half that, we have 4.5 square miles, which puts population density at around 29000 people per square mile. NYC is the most populated city in the US with 27000 people in the 5 boroughs (305 square miles). That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
It's actually closer to 5 square miles... 4.89, by my figuring.
But the general point of your statement is correct. In fact, it's worse than that, since the City of the Dead and a good chunk of Mount Waterdeep are not available as living areas. And then there's the open areas, like markets and such -- so the available living space is even smaller.
As I said before, the numbers just don't work.
heh, me i just did a rough calculation of the number of houses you could place commoners in, and the population density in those was something quite terrible...
A bit over 100 people in each of those 30*40 feet houses that might be 2 stories high...
I doubt they fit in even when standing :D |
| Iliyan |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 18:54:17
Hmm, I've never went so far to actually calulate the population density of Waterdeep, and such elaborate plots to take over the world etc.. ;D
However while talking about scale in DnD one must always remember. Dnd and everything in it is in your head, if you say there is a dragon that has eaten Waterdeep and you say he fits in a cubicle and is named Bob, by Mystra, so shall it be! :D
Secondly, there was a calculation at the CO forums on wizards and a character was devised that broke the sound barrier by shooting arrows that traversed INSANE longitudes in but a single round( 6sec). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 16:40:47
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Wait, only 3 miles for 100,000 people? Estimating that from east to west is about half that, we have 4.5 square miles, which puts population density at around 29000 people per square mile. NYC is the most populated city in the US with 27000 people in the 5 boroughs (305 square miles). That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
It's actually closer to 5 square miles... 4.89, by my figuring.
But the general point of your statement is correct. In fact, it's worse than that, since the City of the Dead and a good chunk of Mount Waterdeep are not available as living areas. And then there's the open areas, like markets and such -- so the available living space is even smaller.
As I said before, the numbers just don't work. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 16:31:56
Wait, only 3 miles for 100,000 people? Estimating that from east to west is about half that, we have 4.5 square miles, which puts population density at around 29000 people per square mile. NYC is the most populated city in the US with 27000 people in the 5 boroughs (305 square miles). That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. |
| Ghost King |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 15:59:02
It is approximately 3 miles and 700 feet from the northern most tip of Sea Ward to the Southern most tip of Dock Ward. There is a scale with the city in the City of Splendors: Waterdeep Sourcbook on page 93.
Hope that answers your question completely, swifty. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 15:40:24
I think I've seen that one before...
One odd thing about Realms products, particularly the early ones: there's a distinct lack of a scale.
I once worked up a scale for Waterdeep. I used the Inn of the Dripping Dagger as my base -- we had accurate interior dimensions for it, so I used those, the size of the building on the map, and some math to extrapolate the size of the city. Unfortunately, either the buildings are not to scale, or there was some error in my math -- because it came out much smaller than anticipated.
This was years ago, though, so I don't recall the actual numbers. |
| Iliyan |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 10:52:49
Ok, I've got the thing for you... A PDF map of Waterdeep. I beleive there is one hosted on Candlekeep too, but I couldn't find it, so I'm posting the one from the Forgotten Realms Vault...
http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1
It is a wonderful product with a immense amount of data on it.. Take note it is quite big and may be slow in opening on slower computers. |
| Ghost King |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 10:16:08
Well it is a bit misleading. The city itself holds 132,661 people, but the area Waterdeep claims as citizens of the surrounding area is 1,347,840 and depending on the trading season the population can sky rocket even higher or drop lower, but generally it will hover around that number. Most of the population lives outside of the city in smaller towns or are farm/ranch folk and live under Waterdeeps government and laws for the protection they can provide.
As for additonal information, I'm sure there certainly should be some archived information on the City of Splendors here at Candlekeep. But there is a book for it in 2nd edition that maps it out in detail as well as the Waterdeep Sourcebook for 3.x edition. It goes into great depth about all sorts of things in Waterdeep, what sorts of intrigues are going on, who are the Masked Lords of Waterdeep, and a variety of other goods I'm sure are described in great length.
I'll have to dig out the book to give you any greater detail, but I would definately recommend you pick it up if you enjoy the city so much as you say. Well worth your money. |
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