| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 01:37:41
I was reading up on demons and Obyriths who supposedly predate even the gods. They in turn created the Tana'ri. That had me thinking about the Celestial races. Where did they come from? Did they exist before the Gods as well? Did the Wind Dukes (or "Vaati") create them? Also what happened to the Wind Dukes? |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 16:49:34
Which is why game rules (and settings) adapt, expand, and evolve.
They are supposed to get more complex over time as each 'thing' gets more detail, which helps us build a more concise, relistic game-environment.
<sigh>
At least thats the way is used to work...... |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 16:01:21
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
[quote]
it seemed that they're outsiders just a few years ago, but not after the Age of Worms adventures, personally I'm glad cause the Inner Planes are too isolated
Only because of 3.x's indistinction between different groups of Outsiders. They were all lumped together as a single, monolithic group regardless of having anything to do with one another. Celestials and Fiends from the outer planes were lumped in with genie-kin and vaati from the Inner Planes. It's a bit overly simplistic, and given their radically different metaphysical nature, I think it was a well meaning mistake. |
| Quale |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 15:31:24
quote:
Originally posted by Draezen
That it isn't the vaati who where the original celestials is clear, by now, I assume. However, I've always seen the vaati as the ultimate outsiders of law (without any links to the elemental planes). This would also justify their war against the Queen of Chaos, who was originally intented (so it seems to me, at least) as the champion of chaos, and not as an obyrith.
it seemed that they're outsiders just a few years ago, but not after the Age of Worms adventures, personally I'm glad cause the Inner Planes are too isolated |
| jordanz |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 04:19:44
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Monkey could be from the Beastlands, representing some shamanic universal archetype, freedom or something, which is only a part of the priminals. I like the name and the concept, but I'd make them appear human, probably perfect or evolved humans.
quote:
I wouldn't say that the Vaati were beings of pure law. Lawful elemental beings yes, but not beings who represented abstract Law in anything like how a Lawful outsider from Mechanus or any postulative proto-Mechanus would.
yea, that's what I meant
Also I forgot to mention, what about the mortai, especially if the first planes were more primal and dreamy ...
I remember that site, shame it is dead
if anyone wants to read about the priminals, more details http://www.planewalker.com/forum/origins-exemplars
Wow thanks Quale. Here's a post from there:
Quote:
(I believe that this little piece will inspire a good deal of discussion on
the list. Write back to the list with any feedback at all: I'd be curious
to see what people think about this, moreso than with my other stuff)
(The "Priminals" mentioned below are unknown to me; supposedly the oldest
text claim them to be monkey-like beings with powerful magical abilities.
Given the prevalence of monkeys in Prime creation myths, there might be
something to this imagery. They are the counter to the baernaloths and
powerful lords of goodness that have vanished.)
I have pieced together the following history based on what I percieve to be
the history of the multiverse from an Upper Planar perspective. For a lower
planar aspect, cutters are directed towards the boxed set Hellbound: The
Blood War.
The Beginning: The planes are formed; out of the respective fogs of primal
good and evil emerge the Priminals and the Baernaloths. Both begin to hatch
their own scheme, desperate to destroy the other force because it is a
primal need and urge within them. The baernaloths begin to engineer the
construction of the yugoloth castes, while the priminals gain the
inspiration for a race of servants aimed toward the ultimate triumph of good
with a shifting and reactionary caste system. It is unknown which of the
races came up with the idea for a race of servants first, although it is
suspected that the baernaloths were the first. The priminals, seeing a caste
system as too constraining should the future go poorly, seek to adapt,
taking a passive role, as their creations will soon do. In the beginning,
only the guardinal species of cervidal is known. Then, as curiosity for the
exploration or knowledge develops, the avorals, ardeidals, and ursinals are
created. The ursinals act as students of the priminals, learning great
truths about the multiverse. The guardinal species of equinal, lupinal, and
leonal are completely unknown for many millenia.
Planar Waterways: The River Styx and the River Oceanus begin to emerge as
the good and evil of the priminals and baernaloths begins to blossom in its
natural environment. The River Styx soon becomes a raging torrent as the
evil of the baernaloths swells, but the River Oceanus merely seems to grow
calmer and more tranquil as the good of the priminals grows.
Creation of the Guardinals and Yugoloths: The guardinals, less dedicated
towards a rigid caste system dedicated to teaching specific lessons of
goodness, are created first by the priminals, the first cervidals emerging
out of the fields of Elysium. This causes the baernaloths to step up with
their schedules in creating the yugoloth race. However, the yugoloth caste
system has been put into place when the first mezzoloths emerge from the
Grey Waste: the guardinals have only one form, due to the reactionary nature
that the Priminals created them with. Satisfied that their creations would
be adequate to deal with the challenges ahead because of their ability to
react to the circumstances around them, many of the Priminals vanish, with
only a few remaining to guide the guardinals until the time that they know
is coming in the future when their creations shall meet the creations of the
baernaloths.
Corruption of the Gehreleths: As the first yugoloths are just beginning to
ascend towards the rank of ultroloth, the baernoloth known today as Apomps
creates the gehreleths. Because of the inherent chaos in these creations, he
is cast out of his brethren. He escapes to Carceri, plotting revenge. His
gehreleths are then refined into a twisted mockery of the caste of the
yugoloth races. Where the yugoloth castes teach the 'loths to ascend in the
arts of trickery and scheming, the gehreleth castes are created to teach the
'leths only infinite hatred for the yugoloths.
The Casting of Law and Chaos: The first ultroloth, the General of Gehenna,
purifies its race of all vestiges of law and chaos using the Heart of
Darkness. He then creates the tanar'ri and the baatezu from the remaining
energies, and herds them off to their respective planes of the Abyss and
Baator. It is unknown why the yugoloths, creatures created by purest evil
with a purity of evil essence, would contain vestiges of law and chaos in
them. Perhaps the baernaloths forsaw the need for the baatezu and tanar'ri
in the future.
The Barrier Races: Having heard about the purification of the yugoloths, the
eldest of the guardinals (cervidals) study long and hard about what to do in
light of the prospect of a new, more powerful and relatively unified
yugoloth race. The ursinals (and a few of the remaining priminals) decide to
use Law and Chaos themselves. By diluting the power of goodness with law or
chaos, the guardinals could so swell the number of good creatures in the
multiverse. This would deter the yugoloths from attacking. They do not know
of the already-growing baatezu and tanar'ri species. Some guardinals create
elaborate rituals to harness the power of Law to create the first archons
from Celestian petitioners. Others figure out how to draw the passions of
Arborea and likewise infuse them into Arborean petitioners. The guardinals
pass down the knowledge of creating new celestials from petitioners to the
new archons and eladrin, and allow the two species to develop outside their
influence.
The Books of Keeping: Convinced that the Yugoloths are far too powerful to
be defeated by the forces of good, one of the remaining Priminals begins to
write down everything it knows that could possibly be used against the
yugoloths. This includes the procedures to summon and bind even the most
powerful of the race. He does not include the baernaloths in this book,
knowing full well that his servants would be no match for them, and that
contact with the baernaloths could even turn guardinals to evil. The
priminal intends for these tomes will be distributed throughout the Upper
Planes in the hopes that the knowledge should be enough to combat the
growing evil. However, Apomps himself catches wind of this scheme and sends
a large attack force to the Priminal's tower in Elysium. The gehreleths
manage to easily break into the plane and kill the Priminal. The Priminal
had only created ten such books, calling them the "Books of Protection". The
gehreleths manage to steal six of them (the other four were already
distributed throughout Elysium) and retreat back to Carceri, where a
yugoloth squadron is waiting for them. The yugoloths manage to seize four of
these books, with the other two hidden forever in the ice of Agathys. The
dergholoth commander orders the Books of Keeping to be given to him, but his
mezzoloth underlings refuse, and turn on each other. Each critically
wounded, the four books are split into four seperate directions as the
mezzoloths vanish into the darkness of the Lower Planes. Eventually, the
inward evil of the very knowledge contained in the "Books of Protection"
turns them into dark volumes made out of the skin of various Lower Planar
creatures. It is rumored that the General of Gehenna manages to find one of
these books, and so protects himself from those that would overthrow him.
The Fall of Triel the Archon: The tome archon Triel is cast out of Mount
Celestia for falling into the trap of corruption and evil. Actually, it's
not so much that he became evil: the archons found him far too lawful for
even their tastes: he had no good in him, and there was a distinct trace of
evil. So they judged him guilty of treason, and he would have ended up like
a normal archon had he not fled himself. He found his way to Baator, where
he called himself "Baazelbub", attempting to forget what he had been through
in the past. He rose to the power level of Lord of the Nine because of the
sheer fact that he was so much more knowledgeable about the multiverse than
the other young beings in Baator. The archons erase all memory of him from
their records and minds: it is as if they have willingly forgotten about
their servant that went astray. He does not forget about Mount Celestia,
though, and begins devising a plan so that he will be able to return to his
former home in triumph. Eventually, he decides upon architecture: if he can
build the perfect city (perfect in every way), the archons of Mount Celestia
will have no choice but to take him in again. This begins as a casual act,
but later becomes an obsession.
The Traveler's Way: Upon the murder of the Priminal that first penned the
Books of Keeping, the guardinals see that their home Plane of Elysium is
very susceptable to invasion by evil. Using great magics, they manage to
construct the "traveler's way" of Elysium, powering their spells with the
waters of the Oceanus.
The Aasimon: Strange beings on the planes known as "powers" create the
aasimon in the image of the guardinal-spawned archons. Unlike the archons,
though, the aasimon are little more than servants: proxies for the divine
will of their masters. The guardinals dislike these new creations, as they
fragment the cause of good even further than they had already split it on
purpose. However, the aasimon tend to stick their home realms, so they are
not as much as a factor.
Upper Planar Diplomacy: The archons and eladrin meet for the first time. To
the surprise of the guardinals, they do not get along as well as they had
hoped: law and chaos create hostility even between the forces of good. The
ursinals step forward to facilitate diplomacy between the two sides,
creating the tenuous peace that continues even to today.
The Maeldur Et Kavurik: The baernaloths capture the first Solar and "tell
him things that no creature of purity should know." In essence, it is
changed into a living teleportation matrix and secured within the towers of
Gehenna, where he transports the baatezu, tanar'ri, and yugoloths across the
infinite planes.
The Baernaloths Vanish: The baernaloths, for a long time the ultimate force
in evil, withdraw to let their creations do their bidding. They vanish into
the Wastes as the number of ultroloths swell. This swelling in the upper
ranks can be directly linked to the purification of the yugoloths: some of
the species found their natures conflicted or changed from what they once
knew. And some were acting; these become the initial advisors of the General
of Gehenna.
Corruption of the Guardinals: The tanar'ri and baatezu stumbles upon Elysium
and lay waste to whomever they find there. Because of the Traveler's Way,
they do not get very far, but words of their actions spread throughout
Elysium. Before, the only major invasion was that of the gehreleths, and
that was not widely known. These invasions do become widely known, and the
guardinals for the first time know evil. Some wish to return to innocence,
but find themselves unable, and become the equinals. Others develop a hatred
for the evil that they cannot understand, and become the lupinals. However,
only after the discovery of evil in the multiverse did the mightly leonals
arise. Ignatius, one of the most wise of the ursinals, takes to studying
exactly what 'evil' is. He virtually entombs himself within the mountains of
Eronia, dedicated to figuring out exactly what "evil" could be, exactly. He
does not emerge for a few millenia.
The Last of the Priminals Vanish: The last of the remaining priminals vanish
from Elysium. It is unknown where they vanish to, but like the baernaloths,
they realize that their creations must guide themselves for the time being.
The Blood War Begins: The tanar'ri and baatezu, both fully grown, meet for
the first time. The Blood War begins in ernest, with the baatezu fighting
the tanar'ri and the yugoloths acting as sellswords and mercenaries to
either side in order to increase their own power and influence. The
guardinals hear about the conflict first, and the revelation that there are
two new races of fiends prompts them to begin to rethink their plans. In
time, many see the war as a boon, something keeping the War from the Upper
Planes. This is before the baatezu and the tanar'ri discover the archons and
eladrin, and vice versa.
The Intervention of the Celestials: The baatezu and the tanar'ri invade the
Upper Planes, and the archons, eladrin, and aasimon learn for probably the
first time of such creatures. They tear towards the Lower Planes, destroying
everything in their path, smiting tanar'ri and baatezu alike as the Blood
War continues to rage. Then, the tanar'ri and baatezu unite to destroy the
celestial meddlers. The archons and eladrin retreat to their respective
planes, and the guardinals fear that the tanar'ri and baatezu will continue
around the Great Ring by the will of their yugoloth masters. For some
reason, however, they do not - perhaps the devisive nature of evil is more
powerful than the guardinals had hoped The guardinals work in secret to
help the archons and eladrin rebuild their races. Both races swear to
destroy either the tanar'ri or the baatezu. This does not do much for the
relationships among the Upper Planar beings, but due to their heavy losses,
there is very little confrontation between the archons and eladrin for
several centuries, during which the Blood War wages on without intervention
from any force save the yugoloths. During the time that the celestials lay
waste to the Lower Planes, the guardinals sit, trying to figure out what had
gone wrong with their creations. Only later do they realize that diluting
the pure force of good with Law and Chaos was a mistake, but they can then
do nothing.
Creation of the Quesar: Seriously weakened by their failed campaign against
the fiends, the aasimon of the Upper Planes mold the quesar out of the mud
of the swamps of Belierin, the third layer of Elysium. They give it the life
of the plane, but the quesar are not content to serve. Borne of Elysium,
they could not accept being slaves to the aasimon as the aasimon were slaves
to their deities. Eventually, the aasimon abandon their creations and the
quesar go off to begin existences of their own.
The Asuras: Because the rituals for creating archons from petitioners were
not made by creatures of law, it is inevitable that some would fall through
the cracks. These are the asuras, cast out of Celestia by the archons for
failing to be as lawful and as good as their superiors. However, the archons
do not realize that they themselves are flawed creations: as creations of
neutrality, they cannot truly ever grasp the perfection of total law mixed
with total goodness. Sadly, those that would seek to adhere to the nature of
their original creators are punished and condemned to walk the multiverse as
'asuras'.
The Petitioners: The baatezu and tanar'ri learn for the first time what the
celestials have known for countless centuries: that petitioners can be
remolded into new forms, combinations of law and chaos with good and evil.
This makes both sides virtually heedless of their losses in the Blood War:
they no longer need fight a careful war where casualties matter. This makes
the fiends even more dangerous for the Upper Planes, and signs of strife
begin to show again between the archons and eladrin.
The Sealing of Belierin: The guardinals, in one of their Great Quests for
Goodness, come upon the Hydra of Legend near Faunel. The Hydra has been
laying waste to anything in its path. Hordes of lupinals, equinals, and
leonals descend upon the creature, but there is no killing it. For each head
that gets cut off, another grows back, stronger than the next. The battle
rages for weeks until the Leonal Prince Sevini decides upon a desperate
scheme. The remaining guardinals teleported the hydra to Belierin and sealed
the layer with powerful magic. Thus began the isolation of the third layer
of Belierin: all the petitioners that lived there were politely asked to
leave, and they did. The hydra was trapped within an infinite prison, and as
time passed, people forgot about Belierin (call it some more guardinal
magic). Other prisoners eventually joined the Hydra within Belierin, but
many of them were hunted down and slain by the Monster of Legend.
Prince Talisid: The ursinal Ignatius finally emerges from his studies deep
in Eronia. He has spent at least seven milennia in study, attempting to
discover exactly what the true nature of evil was. When he emerges, he has
been successful. He discovered, after studying a "Book of Protection"
thoroughly, the reason that evil acts as it does: because it cannot accept
their position in the multiverse. He declares this to Elysium, and the
reaction is mixed: many of the younger guardinals do not understand it, and
even the eldest cannot comprehend why someone would deliberately choose to
act evil. However, the ursinal Ignatius is truly the first of his race to
understand exactly what evil is. The guardinals, although created by the
priminals to be versatile, could not truly understand what evil was.
Ignatius had discovered this: the first of his race to understand evil. He
ascends beyond the rank of leonal, to the level of most demigods. His
discovery wins him influence all over, and he is dubbed "Talisid", which
means in some ancient forgotten language, "Discoverer."
Mortals on the Planes: The first mortal planeswalkers enter the Outer
Planes, oblivious to the struggles that the celestials have made in the
past. So many of them attempt to embrace the aasimon and archons as their
god-images from the Prime, but they are quite often rebuffed, claimed as
"impure." Some others, however, are deemed "worthy" and begin to father and
mother children borne of the Heavens; the aasimar. At the same time,
tieflings begin to appear in abundance throughout the Lower Planes and
beyond. The eladrin take it upon themselves to protect the mortals and their
freedom of choice in the city, while the archons attempt to lead them
towards the path of lawful thinking. The asuras see only their potential for
evil, and the aasimon see only their potential for the worship of their
powers. The guardinals attempt to lead the mortals towards embracing good
and rejecting evil. They are not always successful.
The Brothers of Purity: While the current incarnation of this sect is known
as the "Guardians", they were first known on the planes as the Brothers of
Purity. Basically, they were a bunch of mortals that found the guardinals
and enjoyed their way of life. Some decided to relax. Some decided to fight
forever to protect their paradise. After about fifteen hundred years, the
guardinals themselves subtely disband the official organization (as they
prefer their mortal admirers to not feel bound by an organization).
Throughout the years, other such organizations sprung up, only to be calmly
put down by the guardinals, claiming themselves undeserving of flattery.
However, they really see members of these sects as powerful forces for
goodness, and quite often recruit them personally for missions against evil.
The Exploitation of the Prime: As the fiends descend on the Prime to cull
its souls for their unholy armies, so do the celestials. Many eladrin travel
by themselves to protect mortals from the influence of the fiends and the
archons. The archons and aasimon appear as religious leaders, as messiahs,
and as saviors. The guardinals do not primarily appear to influence
(although they do, to some extent), mainly to observe. Because they are not
spawned from petitioners, they have no overwhelming desire to gain more
mortal souls to swell their numbers (although more good mortal souls are
always welcomed). Some of the avoral head to the Prime to explore its many
worlds. However, most of the archons, aasimon, and other celestials that
make themselves known on the Prime end up dead, slain either by xenophobic
Prime citizens or by "demons" that got presence of a "messiah" on earth. The
Rilmani also travel to observe, but rarely act, if at all.
The Faerie Queen: Shailiana, the current Faerie Queen of the Eladrin, is
captured by baatezu in the service of Prince Levistus. He demands the ransom
of a thousand eladrini souls for her safe return. The eladrin comply (not as
a group; each volunteers as an individual), and Levistus goes along with his
side of the bargain: with the minor detail that the Faerie Queen has been
tortured to the brink of insanity and implanted with various
baatezu-engineered... creatures (it's rumored that Levistus first engineered
the spinal leech for this occasion). She rules for a few years, giving out
mad decisions and having random fits of anger, violence, depression, and
sorrow. Eventually, Shailiana is slain by her right-hand ghaele knight, who
then kills himself in order to preserve his honor. There is a power vacuum
for a while before the tuliani Naizewen ascends to power. She rules for
about two years.
Naizewen: The culmination of the baatezu's devious plot was when the baatezu
managed to place a puppet of theirs on the throne of the eladrin. Naizemen
was originally a tulani in the right-hand service of her Faerie Queen; when
it was discovered that she had been captured, she was among the first to
offer herself as ransom. The baatezu then quite happily removed her mind and
replaced it with the brain of an erinyes. She was not the first of their
test subjects: they tried unsuccessfully first on a shiere knight, then on a
noviere. Eventually, they perfected the process, and slowly but surely
reworked every organ in Naizewen's body in their own grotesque manner. In
the end, she was a perfect replica of the one who left... she was just
completely and totally given into evil. An evil that was masked by powerful
alteration magic. Naizewen was a Faerie Queen of the worst kind: cruel,
harsh, arrogant. Eventually, a shiere knight managed to discover her dark
secret, but knew that slaying her would accomplish nothing. Instead, he
managed to expose the truth about what their Faerie Queen was. The eladrin
were in disbelief: how could this be? Some believed the "rogue knight", and
some did not. In the end, eladrin turned against eladrin, fighting for the
favor of their Faerie Queen. The Faerie Queen found her secret revealed to
her closest advisors in her inner sanctum in the forests of Arvandor... in
the end, her fiendish nature could not be denied. She had been catching
squirrels and other small animals and drinking their blood for substance:
she could not stand the flowery wine and airy food of the eladrin as
sustanence for her fiendish pallette. The tulani noble Morwel slays their
fiendish ruler, and becomes Faerie Queen herself. She grants pardons to all
those who found against the evil, and Arborea becomes safe to travel again.
Malagard: The city of Malapyrmi (City of Perfection) is deemed by Triel the
Fallen to be "imperfect", due to a flaw in the alignment of the heights of
the towers in the city. Builders abandon it in favor of a new site, where
Triel orders them to begin construction of the new designs of Malagard, the
City of Triumph. Construction on Malagard continues for a good deal longer
than anyone has anticipated.
The Death of Orcus: Orcus, tanar'ri lord of death and suffering, is slain by
the drow demigoddess Kiaranselee, who immediately takes over his realm and
begins plotting against Lolth.
The Yugoloths Reign in their Brethren: Unwitting mortal pawns follow the
plots of their yugoloth puppetmasters, and managed to douse the Maeldur Et
Kavurik within the waters of the River Styx. The yugoloths spread chant that
they will return the teleport without error power to any fiend that swears
unholy allegiance to the yugoloths. The guardinals, watching from Elysium,
are terrified. They can do not such similar thing to their creations the
eladrin and archons. The wisest ursinals and leonals begin to confer about
what to do; action must be taken quickly before the yugoloths can do
anything. Some advocate finding and slaying the Maeldur, but that plan has
too much of a tendency for danger: what if the baatezu and tanar'ri could
trace the action back to them?
Tenebrous: Orcus returns from the dead as the undead power Tenebrous and
kills a number of powers before being destroyed by the power of the Last
Word.
The Disappearance of Prince Talisid: Prince Talisid, the wisest of the
leonals, vanishes from Elysium. It is said that he has gone to find the
remaining Priminals in order to learn how to create more of his species and
swell their numbers so that can adequately deal with the threat of the
yugoloths. Prince Sevini rules in absentia, but he does not know as much as
Talisid, despite being his elder.
The Faction War: Sigil, known to the guardinals as a multiversal hub of
apathy, indifference, and evil, undergoes a brutal war between
political-minded factions. Hundreds are slain in meaningless battles over
control of Sigil. What celestials do exist in the city are divided: the
guardinals attempt to stop the war, while some of the archons and eladrin
even take sides to destroy what fiends they can.
Present Day: The present day.
Dave King/Heregul
"Then spoke the thunder." - T.S. Eliot |
| Draezen |
Posted - 03 Apr 2009 : 20:46:48
That it isn't the vaati who where the original celestials is clear, by now, I assume. However, I've always seen the vaati as the ultimate outsiders of law (without any links to the elemental planes). This would also justify their war against the Queen of Chaos, who was originally intented (so it seems to me, at least) as the champion of chaos, and not as an obyrith.
Anyway, I personally see the many creation myths of D&D history as what they really are, or at least what they're supposed to be, myths (and in the 'loths' case not even myhts, but lies). For that reason, and because I don't particularly like some of those myths I've come to adopt several other possibilities of outsider origins to create my own little creation story (where, btw, the 'loths deliberate lies have a place, too).
That said, I'll add a few thougths.
Since the obyriths created the tanar'ri from the first mortal souls that arrived in the Abyss, something similar to that could have also been the case with archons - a race that guided the first mortal souls to virtue. On the other hand, since obyriths and tanar'ri are effectively two different races, it could be that this is a property unique to the chaotic planes, and that the lawful planes (at least Celestia and Baator) don't have a seperate ancestor race but their progenitors where actually the first of their kind. Then the beings known today were originally created from mortal souls by those first ones (archons) or are fallen (to some degree, devils). |
| Quale |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 18:22:57
Monkey could be from the Beastlands, representing some shamanic universal archetype, freedom or something, which is only a part of the priminals. I like the name and the concept, but I'd make them appear human, probably perfect or evolved humans.
quote:
I wouldn't say that the Vaati were beings of pure law. Lawful elemental beings yes, but not beings who represented abstract Law in anything like how a Lawful outsider from Mechanus or any postulative proto-Mechanus would.
yea, that's what I meant
Also I forgot to mention, what about the mortai, especially if the first planes were more primal and dreamy ...
I remember that site, shame it is dead
if anyone wants to read about the priminals, more details http://www.planewalker.com/forum/origins-exemplars |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 01:29:02
Ahhhh... Okay.
I was wondering why I hadn't heard of them before, and now that I've put more the 60 seconds of thought into it I realize they really aren't chaotic enough to connect Monkey to.
Although being 'the last' of anything gives it a lot of freedom...
Thank you for your candor  |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 31 Mar 2009 : 22:20:48
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Fwiw, the priminals idea was created by Dave King.
Whats your opinion of that piece of Lore?
Also, where is it from? 
They weren't anything published. They popped up on Dave King's website among some other stuff that he created. I haven't really read it very in depth, and not recently. I'm mixed on the idea myself. I adore the idea of a neutral good progenitor race that preceeded the guardinals, but the monkey thing doesn't do it for me. I gave my campaign's conceptual analog of his Priminals forms somewhat similar to chinese dragons. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Mar 2009 : 21:57:10
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Fwiw, the priminals idea was created by Dave King.
Whats your opinion of that piece of Lore?
Also, where is it from?
I was thinking about linking them somehow to Monkey (I thought it would be cool if he were the last of their kind - sort of Doctor Who-ish), but I've only just heard of them here. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 31 Mar 2009 : 02:51:43
quote:
Were the all obyriths inherently evil or were that initially just "Chaotic"?
By default they were CE. The first of their kind were literally seeded into the primordial Abyss by the baernaloths of the Waste as the Abyss differentiated into a discrete plane as Evil mixed with Chaos. It's also possible that they were created from the early generations of yugoloths by the General of Gehenna (at the direction and with the aid of the baernaloths) as a form of spiritual purification of his race as the influence of chaos leaked into the early lower planes. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 31 Mar 2009 : 02:47:21
I wouldn't say that the Vaati were beings of pure law. Lawful elemental beings yes, but not beings who represented abstract Law in anything like how a Lawful outsider from Mechanus or any postulative proto-Mechanus would.
As for the archons, they didn't exist as a race prior to the arrival of mortal souls in Mount Celestia. Something likely existed there prior to their arrival, and might dwell there still within its highest layer, but there's not information on archon pre-history really.
Fwiw, the priminals idea was created by Dave King.
I've always attributed the eladrin as being the final creations and metaphorical children of an earlier, primordial CG race who constructed the ruins that dot the layer of Pelion/Mithardir. I also speculate (in a story I wrote a few years ago) that this race created the Infinite Staircase as a last, desperate and poignant act of creation to flee some manner of horrific retribution by the baernaloths of the proto-Grey Waste (for actions never fully detailed).
As for the asuras, I doubt there was any definative creation story for their kind, because they're still being created and expelled from Mount Celestia whenever an archon slides from LG towards chaos. And given their link to the archons as a parent race, since they were all archons once themselves, I'd lay it solely at the feet of Celestial Hebdomad rather than giving any deities a role whatsoever. The internal politics of outsider races generally aren't a place where deities meddle. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 31 Mar 2009 : 02:24:39
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The origins of celestial races are mostly unknown, we can only speculate, but it's very unlikely that the vaati were involved.
They are beings of pure law, not good, tough there is one caste of outcasts that are LG (also I wonder if they have something with the Storm Kings of Arcadia, but they were mortal, that's the only upper planar connection I can think of, possibly one of their offshoots were the ancestors of the buseni).
The vaati originated in the Plane of Air, not like obyriths, who are native to the Outer Planes. They conquered the Inner Planes and a large part of the Prime. Their first wars in the Inner Planes were against local chaotic beings, probably genies and chaos elementals, possibly fey. Only after subjugating them the vaati spread to the other planes and came into conflict with the obyriths. So far it seems that the most ancient race of Mechanus were the angel-looking aphanacts, probably with Asmodeus as one of their generals. After the war, the remaining vaati retreated to the hidden Vale of Aaqa on the Prime.
celestial speculations
Guardinals, according to Heregul, were created by the Priminals, monkey-like beings, who disappeared like the Baernaloths, cervidals were probably the first.
Angels, probably by the gods, or strange beings known as ''powers''. In my cosmology Jazirian is one of the Seraphim, who with the Ophanim originate from the serpentine helions (had this before aphanacts were mentioned in Dragon).
Archons, maybe by the guardinals in a process similar to the yugoloth purge of Law and Chaos. Personally, don't like it. Think they're relatively new, the result of Celestia perfecting itself through or by the Aeons. That 3e celetial book mentions that the throne archons were mortal martyrs. The Planes of Law mentions the Watchers (Grigori) who were banished after too much involvement with the mortals, imposing their laws.
''Fallen'' to chaos, Asuras were cast out of Celestia, I'd say by the gods rather than the archons, considering the mythology.
Eladrin, spawned directly from the plane, the passions of Arborea. Perhaps there was a celestial race that predated them, there are titanic graveyards and ruins with the Words of Power in the white sands of Mithardir.
Thanks Quale, that was very informative. Were the all obyriths inherently evil or were that initially just "Chaotic"? |
| Quale |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 21:38:45
The origins of celestial races are mostly unknown, we can only speculate, but it's very unlikely that the vaati were involved.
They are beings of pure law, not good, tough there is one caste of outcasts that are LG (also I wonder if they have something with the Storm Kings of Arcadia, but they were mortal, that's the only upper planar connection I can think of, possibly one of their offshoots were the ancestors of the buseni).
The vaati originated in the Plane of Air, not like obyriths, who are native to the Outer Planes. They conquered the Inner Planes and a large part of the Prime. Their first wars in the Inner Planes were against local chaotic beings, probably genies and chaos elementals, possibly fey. Only after subjugating them the vaati spread to the other planes and came into conflict with the obyriths. So far it seems that the most ancient race of Mechanus were the angel-looking aphanacts, probably with Asmodeus as one of their generals. After the war, the remaining vaati retreated to the hidden Vale of Aaqa on the Prime.
celestial speculations
Guardinals, according to Heregul, were created by the Priminals, monkey-like beings, who disappeared like the Baernaloths, cervidals were probably the first.
Angels, probably by the gods, or strange beings known as ''powers''. In my cosmology Jazirian is one of the Seraphim, who with the Ophanim originate from the serpentine helions (had this before aphanacts were mentioned in Dragon).
Archons, maybe by the guardinals in a process similar to the yugoloth purge of Law and Chaos. Personally, don't like it. Think they're relatively new, the result of Celestia perfecting itself through or by the Aeons. That 3e celetial book mentions that the throne archons were mortal martyrs. The Planes of Law mentions the Watchers (Grigori) who were banished after too much involvement with the mortals, imposing their laws.
''Fallen'' to chaos, Asuras were cast out of Celestia, I'd say by the gods rather than the archons, considering the mythology.
Eladrin, spawned directly from the plane, the passions of Arborea. Perhaps there was a celestial race that predated them, there are titanic graveyards and ruins with the Words of Power in the white sands of Mithardir. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 15:26:50
I have the Vaati as the male counterparts to the Sisters of Serenity - who are some sort of Primal Spirits inhabiting the Yehimals.
The 'Sisters' are canon (I think the Faces of Deception novel), but their relation to the Dukes is my own homebrew. I was also planning on giving them some lore in the Malatra region of lower K-T, since I managed to shoe-horn the Mahasarpa material into that area (the Wind-Dukes are mentioned in the Mahasarpa WE, IIRC).
Thats for the 3eOA, which makes it more Rokugon then Kara-Tur, but since Mahasarpa isn't part of Alderac Entertainment's Rokugon, and it belongs to WotC, I have no problem using it for FR instead. 
Anyhow, its been a while since I read through that, and its not officially FR, so its not really much help either-way. I believe the Wind-Dukes were more a Core/Greyhawk thing anyway.
Sorry I couldn't have been more helpful, but thats all I got.
As for your question - I believe the Vaati would make a likely candidate for creating the Devas, but I'm not too sure if they'd have anything to do with the others. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 14:56:09
Anybody? |
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