| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 22:20:29
Great blog entry from the old school blog 'Grognardia', all about how the Forgotten Realms of the Old Grey Box is really a fabulous, old school setting.
Good read, and I figured I'd post something positive here for once.  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| froglegg |
Posted - 22 Dec 2009 : 01:56:25
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Great blog entry from the old school blog 'Grognardia', all about how the Forgotten Realms of the Old Grey Box is really a fabulous, old school setting.
Good read, and I figured I'd post something positive here for once.
Cool Uzzy! I have so much love for The Old Grey Box. Thanks for the link 
John |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 16:44:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Pro-pre4e people are glad to help any 4e fans anyway they can when they ask questions... as long as they don't go on and on about how much 'better' FR is now.
I agree, I've noticed the same thing. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 22:53:31
I find that when no-one - of either 'faction' - goes off about how great 'their' edition is, arguments NEVER flair-up. Pro-pre4e people are glad to help any 4e fans anyway they can when they ask questions... as long as they don't go on and on about how much 'better' FR is now.
Thats when things tend to get a little 'hot'.
I'm willing to help someone any way I can, but not when they are rubbing my nose in it. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 18:32:11
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
WOTC boards are pretty awful if you are not a 4th edition fanboy/girl.
The general boards, probably, but the Forgotten Realms boards are pretty edition-neutral in both intent and practice.
For the most part (i.e. 99.9%), anyway. There still occurs the occasional flame-up between parties, but it usually does not last long, then dies down again so we can discuss things civilly. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 14:40:49
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
WOTC boards are pretty awful if you are not a 4th edition fanboy/girl.
The general boards, probably, but the Forgotten Realms boards are pretty edition-neutral in both intent and practice. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:49:11
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Personally I think the issue of how well 4E (or the 4E Realms) is selling is a red herring. If I don't like something, it doesn't really matter to me how popular it might happen to be with others. I'm not going to rush out and buy something just because "everybody else" is.
I have a tendency of of avoiding popular things since they tend to be fads and don't have longevity. Plus there's something nice about having something that most people don't know about. I suspect most scribes don't rush out and buy something because everyone else is.
However, the sales figures are, to me, interesting for a number of reasons. If the figures are dire then that spells real trouble for our favoured setting since WotC may abandon the whole venture. If the figures are very good then that suggests that the Sellplague gamble worked and old timers like me have to make a real decision on the "adapt or die" question. If the figures are below expectation or average then that offers hope that a votre-face might be attempted in a way to boost sales.
Mostly though it'd be nice to see how other people outside of Candlekeep view the new edition. And the best indicator of that is the sales figures. Of course, I could visit the WotC boards but a popular song by Nirvana always begins sounding in my head when I do.
WOTC boards are pretty awful if you are not a 4th edition fanboy/girl.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 16:10:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think anyone is advocating making a purchase based on popularity... I think people have a real desire to know how it's selling. After all, 4E has caused a lot of changes, both to the game and to our favorite setting. It'd be nice to know if it's looking like a success or looking like a failure.
That's a good point--one that I overlooked when I wrote my post.
Faraer, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the blog post in question. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 27 Jan 2009 : 21:18:55
What about Ed and the Gygaxian school?
Here are some of the main common and divergent points:
-- both are influenced by largely the same group of mid-20th-century fantasy authors, with Fritz Leiber as a particular shared reference, and other independently arrived common points such as Vanceian magic and an underground setting which made the Realms and D&D easy fits for each other
-- the Realms follows quite closely what Maliszewski calls Gygaxian naturalism (as it happens, I think that label's dubious because though Gary did partly think that way, he also gravitated to whimsical Zagygian zaniness and wargamism)
-- emphasis on player-driven freewheeling adventurous joyful fun unencumbered by heavy rules
-- the emergence of their worlds through D&D play, expanding from Greyhawk City/Castle on the one hand, and Waterdeep/Undermountain and Shadowdale/Myth Drannor on the other
-- Ed, a generation younger than Gary, is also influenced by some later high fantasy writers as well as more by Tolkien, is from a different country and doesn't share his religion or politics, so the societies he writes are different
-- Ed has a joy for world-building for its own sake that Gary didn't (yet this shouldn't be overstated: Gary meant to publish Greyhawk regional sourcebooks, Epic of Ęrth is a world-building feast, and there are whole expository pages in the Gord novels) |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 27 Jan 2009 : 16:14:50
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Personally I think the issue of how well 4E (or the 4E Realms) is selling is a red herring. If I don't like something, it doesn't really matter to me how popular it might happen to be with others. I'm not going to rush out and buy something just because "everybody else" is.
I have a tendency of of avoiding popular things since they tend to be fads and don't have longevity. Plus there's something nice about having something that most people don't know about. I suspect most scribes don't rush out and buy something because everyone else is.
However, the sales figures are, to me, interesting for a number of reasons. If the figures are dire then that spells real trouble for our favoured setting since WotC may abandon the whole venture. If the figures are very good then that suggests that the Sellplague gamble worked and old timers like me have to make a real decision on the "adapt or die" question. If the figures are below expectation or average then that offers hope that a votre-face might be attempted in a way to boost sales.
Mostly though it'd be nice to see how other people outside of Candlekeep view the new edition. And the best indicator of that is the sales figures. Of course, I could visit the WotC boards but a popular song by Nirvana always begins sounding in my head when I do. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Jan 2009 : 16:03:38
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Personally I think the issue of how well 4E (or the 4E Realms) is selling is a red herring. If I don't like something, it doesn't really matter to me how popular it might happen to be with others. I'm not going to rush out and buy something just because "everybody else" is.
I don't think anyone is advocating making a purchase based on popularity... I think people have a real desire to know how it's selling. After all, 4E has caused a lot of changes, both to the game and to our favorite setting. It'd be nice to know if it's looking like a success or looking like a failure. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Jan 2009 : 15:57:54
Personally I think the issue of how well 4E (or the 4E Realms) is selling is a red herring. If I don't like something, it doesn't really matter to me how popular it might happen to be with others. I'm not going to rush out and buy something just because "everybody else" is. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 27 Jan 2009 : 15:36:33
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
As for the rest of the Realms and 4E in general, what's the status of things, in your humble opinions? I haven't been on these boards for a while now, hanging around on the Paizo side, and I am curious about that... my FLGS tells me 4E ain't selling as much as they thought.
What about the rest of North America, and the world beyond, for that matter?
To be honest, I don't know how well $E is selling. My main sources of information are Amazon and carefully worded Google searches, which more often than not send me to EN World.
Monte Cook's blog is always worth a read. He writes a few entries about the passing of d20.
The Amazon stat's are as follows:
Amazon.co.uk Sales Rank: 125,274 in Books
Popular in these categories:
#5 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Authors, A-Z > G > Greenwood, Ed
#42 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Gaming > Dungeons & Dragons
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #20,971 in Books
#1 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Authors, A-Z > ( G ) > Greenwood, Ed
#12 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Gaming > Dungeons & Dragons
#34 in Books > Entertainment > Puzzles & Games > Role Playing & Fantasy
Amazon.de Verkaufsrang: #30,158 in Englische Bücher
Beliebt in diesen Kategorien:
#4 in Englische Bücher > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Authors, A-Z > ( G ) > Greenwood, Ed
#47 in Englische Bücher > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Gaming
#92 in Englische Bücher > Entertainment > Puzzles & Games > Role Playing & Fantasy
The popularity may not be based on overall sales, but I think that the sales rank probably is.
It would be nice to know how well $E is doing. However, finding an unbiased source and one which gives the exact figures, plus valid comparisons is proving difficult.
As a point of interest with the Amazon figures, it's interesting to see that $E gets a lower ranking then its 3E predecessor. Of course, bitter critics are more likely to vent their spleen and internet access is much greater now then it was. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 27 Jan 2009 : 13:31:31
Well, well, well... This is interesting. Open Grave was released last week on DriveThruRPG at #1, but it's already dropped to #3 this week. This is the quickest drop I've seen on the site for 4E yet. Doesn't mean anything at all regarding overall sales, but thought I'd mention it. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 27 Jan 2009 : 13:06:46
Only indication I've seen is Swedish RPG-magazine Fenix saying that "Wizard of the Coast's steamroller launch of 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons continues apace." |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 26 Jan 2009 : 18:28:44
Most people here wouldn't have any idea as to the statistics of how well 4E is selling. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 26 Jan 2009 : 03:28:03
Still no idea on the sales of 4E. I do notice that the PDF's top DriveThruRPG's bestsellers list for two or three weeks after release, then drop down the list. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 23:18:56
Great blog entry on Ed!
As for the rest of the Realms and 4E in general, what's the status of things, in your humble opinions? I haven't been on these boards for a while now, hanging around on the Paizo side, and I am curious about that... my FLGS tells me 4E ain't selling as much as they thought.
What about the rest of North America, and the world beyond, for that matter?
All info tidbits would be welcomed! |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 Jan 2009 : 03:07:12
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The Dragons of Faerūn tome would seem to suggest much the same.
-Duh. Stupid me. I always forget about Dragons of Faerūn. It was a very "quiet" book. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 23:13:58
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Not, strictly speaking, true.
It began as Ed's SHORT STORY setting, for narrow-focus stories about the travelling merchant Mirt the Moneylender, NOT for novels (which of necessity tell larger stories, and "change things" more in doing so).
Indeed. And Ed has touched on this several times in his replies about the origin of the Realms, and its eventual shift into a TSR-based campaign setting. Well worth the read for anyone interested in those early days of Realmslore.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 23:12:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-The Realms of the Dragons I and II novel anthologies do a good job at demonstrating how the Rage of the Dragons impacted Dragons all across the planet. Remember, the Dracorage Mythal that caused the Rage of the Dragon was keyed to encompass all of Faerūn (and presumably, the rest of the planet).
The Dragons of Faerūn tome would seem to suggest much the same.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 21:39:05
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Not, strictly speaking, true.
It began as Ed's SHORT STORY setting, for narrow-focus stories about the travelling merchant Mirt the Moneylender, NOT for novels (which of necessity tell larger stories, and "change things" more in doing so).
Yet your point about the ruination and "arms race" fiction creep stands, and I don't deny it.
love,
THO
-Novels isn't the proper term, true. Literature. Stories. The Forgotten Realms, first and foremost, was a story-telling setting, which is ultimately the point I was making with my last post. |
| ErskineF |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 21:17:20
Quality isn't the issue. You can have a well written RSE, or a poorly written small story. The issue for DMs is how the story affects his campaign. Novels, or even game material events, that wipe out years of work developing an area of the Realms are highly irritating. A DM who had a long-running second edition campaign based in Tilverton had to be extremely aggravated by the city of Shade suddenly popping into the Realms, and for no apparent reason, reducing Tilverton to a pile of rubble. Every NPC, every business, and every plothook that he had developed over the years were wiped out in an instant.
True, there probably weren't a huge number of DMs affected by the loss of Tilverton. Maybe it's the one city that a majority of Realms DMs would have voted off the continent. But when you multiply such events by all the RSEs that have occurred in the Realms, you end up with a lot of aggravated DMs. Yes, they can ignore the events. What happens, though, when they are ignoring so much that the current version of the Realms has nothing to do with their campaign? We're going to find out.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 21:10:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Going to have to go along with this - and excellent point (as usual) Rinon.
Thank you.
quote:
Was it the novels that ruined our Realms, or was it the quality of those novels?
I would actually reword the question. The problem with the novels, as I see it, was that they were used (not in all cases, but in many cases) as a way to change the setting--I'm talking big changes, here--and "move the timeline forward" rather than just as a way of telling fun stories about the Realms (which is really all *I* want from them). To put it bluntly, I see it as a case of putting the cart before the horse. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 21:09:38
Not, strictly speaking, true.
It began as Ed's SHORT STORY setting, for narrow-focus stories about the travelling merchant Mirt the Moneylender, NOT for novels (which of necessity tell larger stories, and "change things" more in doing so).
Yet your point about the ruination and "arms race" fiction creep stands, and I don't deny it.
love,
THO |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 20:37:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Was it the novels that ruined our Realms, or was it the quality of those novels?
-Hey, don't forget. The Forgotten Realms, first and foremost, was a novel setting. 
-That said, it isn't necessarily the quality of various novels (in terms of technical writing prowess and such), but rather, as you allude to, a "Cold War build-up", in terms of the events and outcomes in major novel trilogies. Compare, say, the lasting effects of the Moonshae trilogy to the lasting effects of, say, the Last Mythal trilogy. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 20:33:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Even having read those, I still came away with the impression that outside of the Moonsea and Bloodstone area, the Rage didn't have much effect.
-A trilogy focusing on a specific group of adventurers, and two short-story anthologies taking place all over Faerūn, in various times, can only do so much justice. The Rage of the Dragons certainly did take place all over the continent. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 19:55:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by see
A game setting is not a place for the designers' stories, it's a place for the gamers' stories.
It does seem to me, based on recent comments by designers (ie. Bruce Cordell's "We were running out of room to tell stories in"), that the focus of the Realms setting is now seen by said designers as mainly a place for them to tell their stories in. If that's the case, it's definitely a trend I don't care for...
That's a good point... Game-wise, it's always been about letting DMs tell their own stories. Fiction-wise, though, the trend with 3E has been to make changes with every other trilogy -- moving the story-telling away from the DMs and making it purely designer-driven.
And this parallels one of the things I didn't like with Dragonlance: with one big, overarching story, it seemed like there wasn't room for other stories. So now I can see the designers feeling that way... But it's so full of mistakes that I still can't condone it. It was the designers that decided to only tell bigger and bigger stories. If they ran out of room, it was their own fault!
And that's not to mention the fact that they seem oblivious to the fact that smaller stories can be told. I almost fell out of my chair when I read the complaints that if one author used an area in a story, no one else could. The mindset of only telling big stories is the only way that complaint even approaches something making sense...
Going to have to go along with this - and excellent point (as usual) Rinon.
I came to the Realms (kicking and screaming) from Greyhawk - I was gamer first, and didn't become a (D&D) novel-reader until years later.
I have to say, I started reading the novels just to get setting-lore... and pretty-much still do for that reason. 'Enjoyability' rarely enters into it (its a nice bonus when it happens, though).
I think the only thing that is worse then the comic-book 'Villain-of-the-month' style of prentation regarding RSEs, is the fact that very few of them really have any sort of lasting effects. Even the ToT, aside from US (as in, the players/DM/fans) knowing about gods who died, in what way did it realy impact the realms at all? 
I actually found it completely bizarre that everything went back to 'business as usual' immediately following the ToT. Where was the renewed 'religous fervor'? Where was the fallen churches of the dead gods? Why weren't any wars fought?
It just seems to me that the RSEs existed just to give 'BOOM!' to certain novels, because there really were no lasting effects... AT ALL. 
On the other hand, we have the sheer brilliance of Elaine Cunningham - her Liriel series was small in regards to the Realms. No RSE, and very few people were directly effected by the events surrounding the two main characters...
And yet it changed the Realms in a VERY dramatic way for all time. She managed to explain why Drow are walking around on the surface -something RAS never bothered to do - which in-itself should be an RSE... but WASN'T.
She probably made the single greatest cultural change to the Realms since Ed built them, and she managed to slip it completely under-the-radar.
Anyone can blow-up a moon, lay waste to a Kingdom, have gods fight, and bring back uber-baddies from a 'parallel dimension'... but it takes incredible talent to NOT do that and still have a lasting effect on the setting.
When the trials and tribulations of a lone girl and her barbarian companion have a much greater effect then gods, cities, and planets falling to earth (or Toril, in this case), we have to ask ourselves...
Was it the novels that ruined our Realms, or was it the quality of those novels?
I can probably think of maybe a dozen that actually contributed to my love of the setting, and thats just plain sad, considering how many I have read (or avoided).
BTW, I am not belittling any one author here (although you may read that by one of my examples - and he happens to be one of my favorite authors). The problem stems from every author trying to out 'Michael Bey' each other - they shouldn't feel the need for that, and yet I'm seeing quite a bit of that 'one-upmanship' that killed off other shared worlds, like the phenomenal Thieves World series. They (all) need to put less explosions and special-effects n their work, and concentrate more on GOOD story-telling.
By way of example - one of my favorite Drizzt stories centered around his relatinship with a Goblin! Its easy to write an entertaining story about a dragon - you'd have a hard time making it un-interesting - but when you can pull a reader into a story about a lowly Goblin, then THAT's the sign of a GREAT author.
And THAT's why I tend not to dis RAS, when everyone else does, because I know he has it in him to tell great stories... if only he could lose that Albatross of a Drow that hangs from his neck.
|
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 19:12:31
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
And just to nudge this scroll back towards its root topic, I praise Ed Greenwood as one of the nicest, most generous men I have ever known, as well as one of the most versatile and talented designers, writers, editors, and voice-over people, too. He doesn't talk about all the assists he's given to others down the years, but a LOT of fantasy and sf writers, artists, editors, and game designers have been "aided by Ed" down the years . . . to say nothing of scribes here at Candlekeep.
love,
THO
What she said goes double for me. Other than my dearly missed grandfather, I can't think of a more patient man on this planet more dedicated to sharing his time and talents with others than Ed. I'm not being facetious when I call him one of my mentors, and I don't think I could ever have asked for a better one.
Steven
One of those aided over the years |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 17:02:33
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-The Realms of the Dragons I and II novel anthologies do a good job at demonstrating how the Rage of the Dragons impacted Dragons all across the planet. Remember, the Dracorage Mythal that caused the Rage of the Dragon was keyed to encompass all of Faerūn (and presumably, the rest of the planet).
Even having read those, I still came away with the impression that outside of the Moonsea and Bloodstone area, the Rage didn't have much effect. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 16:40:12
-The Realms of the Dragons I and II novel anthologies do a good job at demonstrating how the Rage of the Dragons impacted Dragons all across the planet. Remember, the Dracorage Mythal that caused the Rage of the Dragon was keyed to encompass all of Faerūn (and presumably, the rest of the planet). |
|
|
