| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| zemd |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 08:28:06
From the Least favourite character, our discussion went a little bit off topic...  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 02:58:28
That's a good point Mournblade. Even looking through the Deities and Demigods book, you can see the concentration of polar opposites that Bookwyrm makes mentioned of, when he says that evil concentrates.
I think overall balance is not as important as the actions and desires of each individual deity upon the world at a certain time and place.
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| Mournblade |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 20:15:15
NO, I don't think it is important for the pantheon to be balanced. Are the other pantheons balanced? No thet're not and most lean to the GOOD. (breaking Norse, Greek, Egyptian down to alignments). But of course is Zeus really good? Is ODIN really good? WHo knows it is a matter of interpretation. Sometimes in Norse mythology Odin seems FAR from being good, and so does thor. And sometimes LOKI seems good. It all depends on the views of whichever culture and customs the pantheon is derived from. For my purposes the alignments assigned to the greek and norse gods work fine.
And ofcourse they are NOT balanced. I do not think Balance is necessary, I just think it is curious to figure it out. I am sure this is something the theologians of the REALMS discuss in detail in fact.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 11:30:41
Oh...I know what you were talking about, it's just these types of topics always make me think about the nature of good and evil.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 09:52:28
"It is the irony of existance that good is totaly impotant without the contrast of evil."
--Carolinas, the Green Wizard (Flight of Dragons)
However, I personally think it's more in the nature of your second one, Sage -- knowledge.
But that wasn't what I was talking about; I was sugesting that it's why the pantheon leans more towards good than evil -- evil is more concentrated. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 08:14:18
That's a good point. Sometimes I like to think of it more as a case of 'good' never being able to fully exist without 'evil'..."How can we recognise the light without the darkness?", so to speak.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 06:31:09
True. Plus I've always believed something that Eddings stated plainly in the Garion books -- somewhere in The Mallorean, possibly book five. Good is more spread out, more shared. Evil tends to concentrate, almost jealously -- like it's so evil it doesn't really want to share its evilness. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 04:47:30
I think a greater question to ask is, how important is it for the pantheon to be balanced?.
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| zemd |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 09:08:21
zemd stares at the other scribes with round eyes...
Is the Faerunian Pantheons balanced or not??????? Why did i open a topic  .
Personnaly i think it is not balanced. And i can't see a good way to calculate it. I don't even know if the F&P writers thought of this aspect when they wrote it |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 07:15:16
No, Mournblade, I understand that just fine. I don't know how to make it in this case, unless you just ignore all points for "neutral." But I can visualize it quite well. As a matter of fact, I like using a coordinate system for things like this.
The Sci-Fi author Leo Frankowski mentioned an XYZ graph for maping intelligence, instead of the one-dimesional IQ tests we have. The X, Y, and Z stood for basic knowledge (how well the subject learns), problem-solving ability, and wisdom (which includes desicion-making). I thought that was a great idea, personally. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 22:56:50
I think the reason we are finding the balance in the first place is just out of curiosity. It is good to know these things. But before we really do, we need to come to a consensus, should it just be the Faerunian Pantheon, or all the Pantheons that have effect on Faerun. Keep in mind the Nonhuman deities are each their OWN pantheon.
I suppose for a god to get power in the Realms, they have to succumb to AO or they would not be in power.
I really don't mind which gods we find the balance for, but when I did it I was only curious about the Faerunian pantheon. The reason I asked is because without even analyzing it, there is an obvious tendency towards GOOD. I just wanted to see how far that Balance was on the good side. I diagrammed it two ways, one was a line diagram with CHAOTIC EVIL being all the way over on one side and lawful good on the other. That did not work out well, so I just went to a coordinate system, with GOOD/EVIL being the Y Axis and LAW/CHAOS being the X axis.
It is too difficult to explain how I worked out something like this numerically, but If I get a scanner I will try to show it. Anyway, the point of balance ended up being practically on the Y axis, but quite far up from the X axis.
Oh never mind...
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| Malanthius |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 21:09:31
Okay, quicky comments,
When we're talking about Divine alignment balance for faerun, are we refering to toril in general or the faerunian continent?
As for counting/not counting non-human deities with the possible exception of racist deities like loth, almost all of the "non-human" deities have at least some human worshippers. And you have to remember that these non-human deities are Faerunian specific. Loth in Faerun isn't exactly the same psycho drow lady in greyhawk. Final argument against not including non-human deities, has not being human ever stopped them from affecting human events?
Last but and certainly least, what's the point of trying to decide what the current balance is at any given "moment" if it's always in constant flux anyway, and i don't think even Ao really intended it to be a "perfect" balance.
Mal. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 15:15:14
I may have to check over that map and compare it to the one in Monster Mythology. I think there may be some changes to overall pantheon spheres of influence. It might be something that we can work into this to determine the progress of deity balance and whether their influences have increased or decreased from the beginning of published Realms material.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 13:18:35
Thanks. I've got that, but it's at a friend's house. I'll have to get it back sometime . . .  |
| zemd |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 13:12:24
It's in Faith And Avatars, 2E book |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 12:56:50
Well, part of that is listed in their "divine rank." That sleeping god I mentioned is pretty powerful, but since he's sleeping he's only a demigod.
By the way, where is this map you mention? Is it in the 3e information? |
| zemd |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 08:50:32
quote:
Originally posted by MuadDib
quote:
I agree, but on the same hand can you say the pantheon is unbalanced just because evil is more active?
I was referring more to the scoring system, where regardless of activity level, Gods are awarded alignment points.
I dont think Gods should have the same score simply because of alignment, participation, lets call it POWER should be weighed too, of course it opens itself up to much bais and discussion
If we begin to consider such things we'll never finish the work  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 07:19:28
Yes, I think it is similar to the map printed in Faiths and Avatars.
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| Mournblade |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 06:24:44
The mulhorandi pantheon is indeed relevant but it depends WHAT we are asking. Are we asking the balance of the Faerunian Pantheon, or are we asking for all the gods of any pantheon in the realms. For me I am only interested in the balance of the Faerunian Pantheon. IN the new FR setting there is a map that shows what areas of the world each pantheon holds sway. |
| MuadDib |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 05:42:19
quote:
I agree, but on the same hand can you say the pantheon is unbalanced just because evil is more active?
I was referring more to the scoring system, where regardless of activity level, Gods are awarded alignment points.
I dont think Gods should have the same score simply because of alignment, participation, lets call it POWER should be weighed too, of course it opens itself up to much bais and discussion |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 04:56:01
I think the Egyptian pantheon is appropriate enough to be included in this working Bookwyrm. They are a relevant pantheon, and have a stated basis in the Realms anyway.
I mean if we have included non-human deities, then this pantheon should be included also.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 01:17:23
Well, in that case, the total is:
Lawful: 38
Neutral: 64
Chaotic: 40
Good: 48
Neutral: 54
Evil: 36
Looks a little more balanced now. Not perfect -- still a lot more good than evil. But it's better . . . .
By the way, this is without the Egyptian gods. I assumed that, while they're still human in focus (or so I assume), you didn't want that pantheon included. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 21:17:35
I don't think whether or not a deity is active is important. I beleive this is taken care of in whether a deity is demi, lesser, intermediate, or greater. If a deity is not 'active' and greater, then he still has followers. Plus it can just be that the other deities are just as active it is just that no one is writing stories about them.
And you should NOT consider any gods but the human gods. WHY? Because this is a test of the balance of the FAERUNIAN pantheon. Correlon, Moradin, even LLoth are not in the Faerunian Pantheon. When the gods were deciding cyric's fate, it was only the faerunian pantheon that was in session so to speak. The other gods are relevant, but the non-human gods are going to throw the balance WAY off. For example, MOST elven and Dwarven gods are good. so it is going to shift the balance. When I tallied the balance so to speak I only used the alignments and power level of the currently live gods in the realms that were in the faerunian pantheon. Including people like the Red KNight and Hoar. I did not include lloth or any other non human deities. They are in a different pantheon. As different from Faerunian pantheon as the Norse pantheon is.
Without the non-humans I came to an 'average' of neutral good. I also think that the measure of a gods influence is not what is written in the stories, but what they are labelled as whether it is demi/lesser/greater. I think Tyr has just as great an influence as Mystra. And I think ilmater has as great an influence as selune.
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| Mythander |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 15:29:52
quote:
Originally posted by MuadDib
But what about the Gods, who while being of a certain alignment, have about a zero influence and/or participation in the realms. I mean assuming Illmater is a good god, he can't be considered the equal opposite alignment of someone like Cyric. What you guys think?
I agree, but on the same hand can you say the pantheon is unbalanced just because evil is more active? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 12:43:19
I am going to take a look into Monster Mythology as well since there are a lot of FR demi-human and monstrous creature deities detailed in there as well. There is some specific information that also details nonhuman pantheon interactions with the older 1e FR human pantheon.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 11:06:33
As I said in my previous post, I used every deity in Faiths and Pantheons; that includes elven, drow, halfling, orc, and gnome pantheons as well. |
| Carrick |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 11:01:51
Again, why does this only invovle human deities? Is there lackof material about demihuman deities.
Looking at the elven pantheon I would say it is tipping way over to the good side.
But if you include the Drow within the Elven Pantheon then it might balance out again.
does this balance think count for every pantheon? I would not think the Halflings have avery balanced pantheon, for example |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 10:36:51
There's also Ulutiu. He's just a demigod anyway, but he has basically zero impact. He's not dead, but he's willingly sleeping on the Astral. All he does is grant spells, basically. |
| MuadDib |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 10:31:55
I think we also need to distinguish though, not only between alignment but active participation.
Mystra is a force for good who actively participates as such a force. Lloth is the same just evil.
But what about the Gods, who while being of a certain alignment, have about a zero influence and/or participation in the realms. I mean assuming Illmater is a good god, he can't be considered the equal opposite alignment of someone like Cyric. What you guys think? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 10:19:25
It seems okay so far Bookwyrm. I will check over the average stats when I get home. I may even work on a 1e average for the FR pantheon, since that was the general idea I was tending towards in the other scroll.
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| zemd |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 09:47:34
Yes that's exactly what i meant Bookwyrm.
I'll do the same job for the 2E to see if there was a noticable evolution.
And maybe George could help us on this point |
