| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 19:09:25
Forgotten realms wiki states that Asmododeus was able to devour a weakened Azuth in Hell , thus ascending back to true goodhhod. This has me wondering if he's just taken his power or has he also taken over that portfolio? Is he in affect now the god of all mages? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 17:47:56
I was wrong, his divine realm is within Selūne's palace in the Gates of the Moon. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 17:11:13
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Asmodeus could also have killed other lesser (known) deities who where dying when their domain on Dweomerheart was destroyed. Think of Finder Wyvernspur. Asmodeus might have foreseen this if Shar secretly helped him end lured them into his domain where he finally killed and absorbed their essence.
He'd have to go to their home planes to destroy them.
Not if those deities used to have their realm in Dweomerheart. And after the destruction of Mystra and the collapse of the plane Asmodeus could have lured the dying gods into the Nine Hells. But I don't know wich other deities used to live in Dweomerheart except Mystra and Azuth (and I thought Finder did too).
Nope, Finder had his own realm. It was a tiny one, but it was his alone. |
| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 16:59:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Asmodeus could also have killed other lesser (known) deities who where dying when their domain on Dweomerheart was destroyed. Think of Finder Wyvernspur. Asmodeus might have foreseen this if Shar secretly helped him end lured them into his domain where he finally killed and absorbed their essence.
He'd have to go to their home planes to destroy them.
Not if those deities used to have their realm in Dweomerheart. And after the destruction of Mystra and the collapse of the plane Asmodeus could have lured the dying gods into the Nine Hells. But I don't know wich other deities used to live in Dweomerheart except Mystra and Azuth (and I thought Finder did too). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 14:55:12
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Asmodeus could also have killed other lesser (known) deities who where dying when their domain on Dweomerheart was destroyed. Think of Finder Wyvernspur. Asmodeus might have foreseen this if Shar secretly helped him end lured them into his domain where he finally killed and absorbed their essence.
He'd have to go to their home planes to destroy them. |
| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 11:41:59
Asmodeus could also have killed other lesser (known) deities who where dying when their domain on Dweomerheart was destroyed. Think of Finder Wyvernspur. Asmodeus might have foreseen this if Shar secretly helped him end lured them into his domain where he finally killed and absorbed their essence. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 05:56:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If the Devils worship him I guess that would easily qualify...in the Nine Hells...but how the heck did he acquire such a huge following in the FR?
The Nine Hells are part of the Forgotten Realms cosmology altough it is different from Planescape or Greyhawk. And as far I'm concerned a deity's power isn't limited to worshippers from just the material plane but the whole cosmology. So with all the devil worshippers and cults he could have risen to a greater god in the 100 years after the Spellplague.
Yes, they are part of the FR...but if the devils count toward worshipers...then all the Dead Worshipers now on their God's Home Plane should count as well, and we should have nothing less than a full Pantheon of Greater Gods.
I may be mistaken, but I thought Ao's decree stated something about worshipers in Faerun.
I suppose he could have grown in a hundred years though...it is just strange to me that he gained such power in the first place I guess. I've tried to reconcile it by even trying to argue for it; but I still don't think he should have become a God in the first place.
Worshippers are only part of a deity's power. Take Mystra for example. Ed has said "Mystra is the most powerful deity of the Faerūnian pantheon, by virtue of the fact that Toril is so overwhelmingly governed, sourced, and powered by magic." There's no question that worship is only part of what determines a god's power, since the order of most-worshipped gods isn't the same list as most-powerful. Just look at Waukeen, Shar and the other evil deities, Horus-Re, Lolth, and the elemental lords.
The question of what constitutes worship is largely moot because people tend to pray in proportion to their concerns and activities. For instance, almost all mages deliberately worship Mystra, and probably more than half give her primary devotion, including those of evil alignments, such as Manshoon.
In the end, there should be more to the power of the deities than just their worshippers. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 04:56:51
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If the Devils worship him I guess that would easily qualify...in the Nine Hells...but how the heck did he acquire such a huge following in the FR?
The Nine Hells are part of the Forgotten Realms cosmology altough it is different from Planescape or Greyhawk. And as far I'm concerned a deity's power isn't limited to worshippers from just the material plane but the whole cosmology. So with all the devil worshippers and cults he could have risen to a greater god in the 100 years after the Spellplague.
Yes, they are part of the FR...but if the devils count toward worshipers...then all the Dead Worshipers now on their God's Home Plane should count as well, and we should have nothing less than a full Pantheon of Greater Gods.
I may be mistaken, but I thought Ao's decree stated something about worshipers in Faerun.
I suppose he could have grown in a hundred years though...it is just strange to me that he gained such power in the first place I guess. I've tried to reconcile it by even trying to argue for it; but I still don't think he should have become a God in the first place. |
| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 01:47:19
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If the Devils worship him I guess that would easily qualify...in the Nine Hells...but how the heck did he acquire such a huge following in the FR?
The Nine Hells are part of the Forgotten Realms cosmology altough it is different from Planescape or Greyhawk. And as far I'm concerned a deity's power isn't limited to worshippers from just the material plane but the whole cosmology. So with all the devil worshippers and cults he could have risen to a greater god in the 100 years after the Spellplague. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 00:19:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What is hard for me to swallow is that Asmodeus becomes a fully powered Greater God after only taking the life of a Lesser God.
Taking over Azuth's divine essence promoted Asmodeus into a god, but the real power comes from his followers. Could it be that Asmodeus, as lord of the Nine Hells gained enough followers to become a greater god?
If the Devils worship him I guess that would easily qualify...in the Nine Hells...but how the heck did he acquire such a huge following in the FR?
Well, the fact that Davoren the Warlock [from Erik's Depths of Madness] was a worshipper of Asmodeus, and belonged to a cult of like-minded individuals proves that the Ninth Lord does indeed have cults scattered around in Faerūn.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 21:23:13
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What is hard for me to swallow is that Asmodeus becomes a fully powered Greater God after only taking the life of a Lesser God.
Taking over Azuth's divine essence promoted Asmodeus into a god, but the real power comes from his followers. Could it be that Asmodeus, as lord of the Nine Hells gained enough followers to become a greater god?
If the Devils worship him I guess that would easily qualify...in the Nine Hells...but how the heck did he acquire such a huge following in the FR? |
| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 16:58:28
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What is hard for me to swallow is that Asmodeus becomes a fully powered Greater God after only taking the life of a Lesser God.
Taking over Azuth's divine essence promoted Asmodeus into a god, but the real power comes from his followers. Could it be that Asmodeus, as lord of the Nine Hells gained enough followers to become a greater god? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 10:06:30
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Maybe Shar secretly helped Asmodeus. She is the mastermind behind Mystra's death, so she could have used Asmodeus as a tool to kill Azuth. Maybe she saw Azuth as a potential threat if he was to take over Mystra's job.
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
My opinion of Asmodeus is that he's always been more powerful than he lets on... so before when he was just considered an arch-devil --albeit the most powerful of them, he was probably already on the verge of or had acquired true demigod status. If such were the case, he could have finished off Azuth on his own and maybe sucked in some other power floating about in the wake of Mystra's death and reshaping of the planes.
Think about it, Mystra was murdered and no one took over her portfolio... yet she has a history of stashing her power in other beings to ensure a comeback. With no comeback, one must wonder where that power went. Perhaps as a last effort, she expelled Azuth from her realm knowing it would collapse in on itself and sent a portion of her power with him to ensure that he would be able to see to the Weave.
Of course, everything happens so suddenly and Azuth ends up in Hell (perhaps not by accident, perhaps Asmodeus saw the events unfolding and drew him in). Brimming with power and reeling from the abrupt change in his own power while simultaneously being hurled out of a dying plane and being pulled into Hell, he ends up unconscious (much like Gruumsh after defeating Talos) and is at the mercy of Asmodeus who is more powerful than anyone thought. Asmodeus takes advantage of Azuth's helplessness and elevates his own divine status to the point where he doesn't have to hide the fact that he's a god from anyone anymore.
Just a thought.
I think we have the explanation, between what Tyranthraxus and Nerfed2Hell have proposed. That still doesn't mean I'm accepting 4E Realms as canon for my own use; there are still too many other contradictions with established lore. However, this explanation of Shar being involved and Azuth no longer having a home plane due to Dweomerheart's destruction is the closest thing to coherence I've found in the description of events leading up to the $ellplague. Hopefully the designers do the right thing and steal these ideas. I won't comment on the ideas that were actually published in the FRCG and FRPG; that's been done at great length elsewhere.  |
| Jakk |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 09:54:36
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Azuth and Boccob were both LN in alignment, and it's fitting that both deities were consumed by Asmodeus.
This is a nitpick, but Boccob is actually Neutral. Boccob is also a Greater Power (unlike Azuth). I have to admit, I don't see how Boccob being "done in" by Asmodeus makes much sense.
Like your new sig btw.
I stand corrected, on both counts. And I agree, it doesn't make any sense... but neither did anything that happened to the Torilian powers, except possibly for Tyr's fate.  Tyr's dead in my Realms timeline too, and in a very similar manner, but that's about the only major deicide in the (for us nonexistent) RSEs of this period in the timeline. A couple of demipowers bought it, but that's about it.
I like the new sig too. I'm a firm believer in capital Punnishment.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 06:42:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Anybody want to nominate Elminster to become the new God of Mages?Or maybe we dig up Khelben for that?
There's already been a lot of talk of using Elminster that way, but many of us don't think it's likely. Not only is there no indication that WotC will back off from the decision and allow a god of mages to pop up, but there's also no indication that Elminster would take that position, even if offered.
And Khelben is finally resting. I don't think he'd accept the position, either.
Besides, it would be inauthentic to portray Elminster as anything other than the "retired sage" NPC that we've seen in previous lore. Especially not one who would willingly take himself away from his work to handle some problem, or save hundreds of threatened lives by claiming some derivative form of divinity. That isn't how Elminster or the Realms work.
As for Khelben, well... he already has a new "job" of sorts in the 4e Realms. As Blackstaff Tower has shown us. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 06:06:34
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Anybody want to nominate Elminster to become the new God of Mages?Or maybe we dig up Khelben for that?
There's already been a lot of talk of using Elminster that way, but many of us don't think it's likely. Not only is there no indication that WotC will back off from the decision and allow a god of mages to pop up, but there's also no indication that Elminster would take that position, even if offered.
And Khelben is finally resting. I don't think he'd accept the position, either. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 02:17:40
Anybody want to nominate Elminster to become the new God of Mages?Or maybe we dig up Khelben for that? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 01:06:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore?
It's established in Faiths & Avatars. With the exception of demigods, it takes a power to kill a power.
excellent Wooley, thanks. I was looking through my 2E sources after I posted, and found I need this one and powers & pantheons.
Don't forget Demihuman Deities, if you don't have that one.
I like to throw On Hallowed Ground and Monster Mythology into the mix too, when these types of discussions come up. Both tomes tend to ensure a more well-rounded scope on the deities active across most of 2e AD&D. |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 20:47:38
My opinion of Asmodeus is that he's always been more powerful than he lets on... so before when he was just considered an arch-devil --albeit the most powerful of them, he was probably already on the verge of or had acquired true demigod status. If such were the case, he could have finished off Azuth on his own and maybe sucked in some other power floating about in the wake of Mystra's death and reshaping of the planes.
Think about it, Mystra was murdered and no one took over her portfolio... yet she has a history of stashing her power in other beings to ensure a comeback. With no comeback, one must wonder where that power went. Perhaps as a last effort, she expelled Azuth from her realm knowing it would collapse in on itself and sent a portion of her power with him to ensure that he would be able to see to the Weave.
Of course, everything happens so suddenly and Azuth ends up in Hell (perhaps not by accident, perhaps Asmodeus saw the events unfolding and drew him in). Brimming with power and reeling from the abrupt change in his own power while simultaneously being hurled out of a dying plane and being pulled into Hell, he ends up unconscious (much like Gruumsh after defeating Talos) and is at the mercy of Asmodeus who is more powerful than anyone thought. Asmodeus takes advantage of Azuth's helplessness and elevates his own divine status to the point where he doesn't have to hide the fact that he's a god from anyone anymore.
Just a thought. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 19:47:10
What is hard for me to swallow is that Asmodeus becomes a fully powered Greater God after only taking the life of a Lesser God. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 19:07:32
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Maybe Shar secretly helped Asmodeus. She is the mastermind behind Mystra's death, so she could have used Asmodeus as a tool to kill Azuth. Maybe she saw Azuth as a potential threat if he was to take over Mystra's job.
Now that's an idea that would work. Plus, it would leave Asmodeus in Shar's debt. |
| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 18:59:30
Maybe Shar secretly helped Asmodeus. She is the mastermind behind Mystra's death, so she could have used Asmodeus as a tool to kill Azuth. Maybe she saw Azuth as a potential threat if he was to take over Mystra's job. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 18:32:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The very unique circumstances he found himself in were a result of Cyric and Shar's actions...so Asmodeus had the power of more powerful gods helping him kill Azuth even if it was not their intention to do so.
That's too indirect. Another deity has to be involved -- either personally, or by investing their power in an agent. Just setting up the circumstances doesn't count.
Perhaps Mystra was not the only god Cyric attacked? There could have been any number of reasons Azuth was dying...I was only trying to fill in a blank because there just isn't enough information to go on.
My point is, a divine power has to be involved in the actual strike that kills the deity. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 18:26:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The very unique circumstances he found himself in were a result of Cyric and Shar's actions...so Asmodeus had the power of more powerful gods helping him kill Azuth even if it was not their intention to do so.
That's too indirect. Another deity has to be involved -- either personally, or by investing their power in an agent. Just setting up the circumstances doesn't count.
Perhaps Mystra was not the only god Cyric attacked? There could have been any number of reasons Azuth was dying...I was only trying to fill in a blank because there just isn't enough information to go on. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 17:09:42
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore?
It's established in Faiths & Avatars. With the exception of demigods, it takes a power to kill a power.
excellent Wooley, thanks. I was looking through my 2E sources after I posted, and found I need this one and powers & pantheons.
Don't forget Demihuman Deities, if you don't have that one. |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 16:26:31
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Okay, okay, I'll admit I was thinking of Dogma a little when I posited that . . .
I liked it, though. I'm a big fan of those Jersey movies. Although, after Wooly's take on Jay and Bob, I find myself wondering how all those other characters would fit in the Realms... especially Brodie.
Anyhow, I agree with Caolin's take on magic. Removing the Weave from the FR setting is like taking the Force out of Star Wars.
|
| scererar |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 16:07:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore?
It's established in Faiths & Avatars. With the exception of demigods, it takes a power to kill a power.
While god-killing isn't anything I'd ever visit in my FR campaign, I would think that a thorough reading of those sections in Faiths & Avatars should be required when attempting to understand this aspect of the Realms.
I would not either. I was just trying to make sense of some of the 4E changes, as we all are. Wooley indicated lore to justify his reasonings of the contradictions in Azuth's death and asmodeus moving on up in the world.
I find it interesting how things changed or were not really addressed, even in 2E to 3e lore.
good part of this thread to me is that I identified 2 more 2E source books I need to find |
| scererar |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 16:02:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore?
It's established in Faiths & Avatars. With the exception of demigods, it takes a power to kill a power.
excellent Wooley, thanks. I was looking through my 2E sources after I posted, and found I need this one and powers & pantheons.
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 12:28:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Of course I also had this weird flash of Shar causing people to "forget" what really happened during the Spellplague, and she really has a near dead Mystra hidden in the Shadowfell, keeping her on "life support" so that she doesn't rebuild the Weave or finally die and allow another to become the God/Goddess of Magic.
Won't Jay and Silent Bob help save the day?
Jay was too busy trying to pick up a pair of priestesses of Sharess. Silent Bob was too busy trying to keep Jay out of trouble and trying to keep an eye on the monkey.
And the girl who died swimming laps in the pool, she was a follower of Sune.
Okay, okay, I'll admit I was thinking of Dogma a little when I posited that . . . |
| Caolin |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 10:04:36
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
No, there is no god of magic in 4e, and there never will be one. It is one of the most important design principles of 4e.
This has to be the biggest design change which I hate. The Weave was a huge part of what the realms were and I think that it should be restored.....I mean this was supposed to be a magic heavy world. Besides, they could have toned down the uber-characters without destroying what the Realms were at a fundamental level. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 07:35:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore?
It's established in Faiths & Avatars. With the exception of demigods, it takes a power to kill a power.
While god-killing isn't anything I'd ever visit in my FR campaign, I would think that a thorough reading of those sections in Faiths & Avatars should be required when attempting to understand this aspect of the Realms.
|
