| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 16:45:43
The third Monday Musing, The Orc Pantheon, has arrived. Make sure to visit this thread for the ground rules on the Musings, and feel free to share your opinions here. |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 08:24:18
-Wow. I was going to have Talos split off from Gruumsh in my 4E Realms. Now I need to think about it some more. Awesome stuff! 
BRIMSTONE  |
| Arioch |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 11:47:58
Maybe I am in late but...
What if Gruumsh was an aspect of Talos? It is quite possible then that the stormlord decided to maintain the Grummsh side ... simply because he wants to! I love CE deities! 
"...The Destroyer fell silent, then shrugged: "Because I want to.""(from Crucible) |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 06:40:54
Herne would have been much cooler...I used him ONCE in a 1st Edition game and scared the bejeezus (how the heck do you spell bejeezus???) outa the whole party. Great guy that Herne the Hunter. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 00:50:32
The part about Malar does feel a bit forced, IMHO.
Otherwise, intersting.
I've always seperated the two canon 'Hunter deities' - Malar and Herne - by a subtle difference. Whereas Malar is a beast with human intellect, Herne is a 'person' with beastial tendencies. It makes them very similar, but coming at the 'Hunter' aspect from different angles.
And, of course, Malar 'ate' Herne long ago in FR.  |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 00:45:39
It strikes me that Talos was the "alpha male" of the Gods of Fury, and this seemed like a good time for Malar to challenge him for leadership of the "pack," which isn't cowardly or stupid, but just very primal, but that's just my take. |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 00:13:21
Hmm, looks like I will have to add a Gods of Fury Musing to the list.
Until I can get to it, though, please bear in mind that certain details are left intentionally vague in the Musings. Malar is not depicted here as a dumb brute, or even a hungry predator, but a patient and stalking hunter. There is a difference, at times, between a hunter and a predator, and just what Malar was thinking when he left Gruumsh (if he was thinking at all) is something that will have to wait and be revealed... |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 21:53:58
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Don't think of it as "dumb," but rather consider it animal instinct taking over. The power released in Talos' death scared Malar off. Cowardly? No more so than a lion that takes shelter if you shoot at it a few times, frightened by the noise. Frightened does not = cowardly.
I would think that if Malar lurked in the background and waited until Big G was unconscious, then attacked... THAT would be cowardly.
Umm. . . but if he was going to kill Talos then he shouldn't have been frightened by the death throes. Just doesn't make much sense to me. And while Malar is animalistic he's not, according to lore, totally driven by instinct.
I mean Gruumsh, in this theoretic idea, stepped in and stole Malar's kill and then, when the offender was knocked out (I'm assuming that's what went on) he ran. . .
And, on the cowardly part, I'm pretty much of the opinion that Malar wouldn't be concerned with being brave or cowardly, I think he'd just be concerned about killing in the best way possible, using whatever predatory techniques fit the situation.
Now, I'm not trying to poo poo on Garen's article, I think it's great. I just want to try to combat the "Malar is dumb with a capital D" stereotype that lingers about in lore. And it's the only negative critique I have on the piece, and it might not even be a valid critique as it's scant on details here (quite rightly) and may be expanded on more in the Gods of Fury piece. |
| malchor7 |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 19:42:51
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Probably, but only because how Mystra's death was dealt with seemed poorly thought out and inconsistent. Knowing where the gaps of logic are, maybe they could be patched up with some ingeniously clever thinking.
Mmm-hmm. For the record, I agree that an explanation could be offered--one that makes sense and works for the DM and players. I mean, I created one ("ingeniously clever"? me? nah!) that works for my game . . . it'll do until there's an official explanation, or I see a theory I like better.
Until then, back to the lurking--and waiting for more musings! Yay GT!
(P.S. The rest of your post was just nasty!  ) |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 19:22:28
Don't think of it as "dumb," but rather consider it animal instinct taking over. The power released in Talos' death scared Malar off. Cowardly? No more so than a lion that takes shelter if you shoot at it a few times, frightened by the noise. Frightened does not = cowardly.
I would think that if Malar lurked in the background and waited until Big G was unconscious, then attacked... THAT would be cowardly. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 19:16:42
quote:
To give my take on the Malar bit--it doesn't seem to me that his actions were either cowardly or idiotic, but instead sort of animalistic. He's a predator trying to take down a greater prey, who has been able to dominate him all this time . . . he was just waiting for his opportunity, but when it came, Gruumsh was there too. (Though maybe Malar got a *little* power out of the deal? Hmm . . .)
Well, the thing that gets me about it is that Gruumsh was unconscious (for a god) when Malar fled. Unless it was just a confusing turn of phrase there needs to be some sort of explanation for Malar not taking the opportunity to take out Gruumsh.
It could easily be explained by Malar not wanting to kill helpless prey (relatively helpless anyhow). Or that he wants to stalk Gruumsh now, since the God of Destruction would make VERY worthy prey.
It's probably just that I'm a bit sensitive about the God of the Hunt, the predator of predators being portrayed as . . . well. . . a big, dumb, cowardly animal. Just doesn't jive with any predator I've ever studied. |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 17:55:00
quote:
Originally posted by malchor7
I'm concerned that any explanation of Mystra's death will be doomed to failure, just because it's so controversial. Even if Garen posted a really well-articulated and thoughtful theory (which there is no doubt he would, since that's who he is!), wouldn't people just pick it apart like crazy anyway?
Probably, but only because how Mystra's death was dealt with seemed poorly thought out and inconsistent. Knowing where the gaps of logic are, maybe they could be patched up with some ingeniously clever thinking.
But yeah, no matter how well thought out any patching to that story is, there will definitely be some who still find fault with the overall change itself. No matter how talented or eloquent a writer may be, composing a masterfully detailed explanation about the nature of fecal matter would still be just nicely strung together words about a turd. |
| malchor7 |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 17:39:30
[springs from lurking] Ah ha!
Great work as usual, Garen Thal--keep it up! I love the Musings.
To give my take on the Malar bit--it doesn't seem to me that his actions were either cowardly or idiotic, but instead sort of animalistic. He's a predator trying to take down a greater prey, who has been able to dominate him all this time . . . he was just waiting for his opportunity, but when it came, Gruumsh was there too. (Though maybe Malar got a *little* power out of the deal? Hmm . . .)
I as well would be interested to see the Musings take on some of the big questions, like Tyr vs. Helm vs. Tymora and Mystra's death, but I still hold out hope that at least one of those will be explained in a novel or sourcebook.
Thomas Reid's current trilogy, for instance, which is set in the heavens and deals with the gods . . . didn't we see Tyr and/or Helm in person in the first book (it was a while back that I read it, admittedly)? No one else sees it coming? (Maybe just me.)
I'm concerned that any explanation of Mystra's death will be doomed to failure, just because it's so controversial. Even if Garen posted a really well-articulated and thoughtful theory (which there is no doubt he would, since that's who he is!), wouldn't people just pick it apart like crazy anyway?
(That doesn't mean no, GT!)
|
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 17:23:27
Garen,
The only thing I didn't like was that Malar seems to be fitting into the cowardly idiot stereotype that's been heaped on him for a good long time now. Of course, since this is only one or two sentences, it's mighty hard to give any type of detail and I look forward to an expanded explanation in your Gods of Fury article but I just want to make sure that there's someone to speak up for the poor guy.
Anyhow, I do think it's some great work and I'll be getting into the other articles when I've got some time. |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 15:24:54
Honestly, I'd still be opposed to it and would adamantly refuse to progress forward into that whole era with my campaign... good explanations or not, much of what I like about the Realms is still being needlessly trimmed to appease a crowd that I'm not part of.
But regardless of game, it is nice to see some sort of well-thought out planning brought to these changes, and if this sort of thing was done from the get-go, I would just have to complain about other things instead of adding the whole gods mess to the list.
Also, as with the elven gods, I will be adopting part of this Monday Musing to my 3e campaign. Guess which part. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 15:20:40
The Sell plague??? 
Great definition.
And Gray, interesting theory. I find it very well done. To me, the fact of gods having more than one "aspect" (Gruumsh/Talos; Selune/Sehanine) don“t is exactly a problem. Here in Brazil, in the colonization, the african slaves need to disguise his faith, or suffer in the hands of inquisition. So, they give "christian names" to all his gods ans spirits, to disguise and survive with his faith. Because of this, actually, we have great similarities and is almost a "popular creed", that the same "aspect" is present in both faiths (like Mary/Yemanjį, and many others). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 14:18:45
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
This is why I love Candlekeep
I agree. Even though I'm not playing 4E and avoiding deicide like the Spellplague (), I've still greatly enjoyed Garen's Monday Musings and the discussions coming out of them.
Ditto. Had explanations like these in place from the beginning, I don't think there would be nearly as much resistance to the Sellplague and its results. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 07:40:05
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
This is why I love Candlekeep
I agree. Even though I'm not playing 4E and avoiding deicide like the Spellplague (), I've still greatly enjoyed Garen's Monday Musings and the discussions coming out of them. This one in particular is very interesting, and moreso thanks to Gray Richardson's theorizing about Gruumsh and Talos. Garen Thal's efforts have made many of the deicides/conflations make much more sense... and I eagerly await his attempt to make sense of the whole Tyr/Helm/Tymora fiasco. Garen, if you can do that, *and* explain how a lame duck like Cyric can get into Dweomerheart and take down the Lady of Mysteries on her home plane, I will be quite impressed. Of course, I already have a theory on the latter: We know that in the Spellplague, Asmodeus sucked up Azuth's divinity... so I'm quite sure Asmodeus helped Cyric out in some way, and we know that Shar was involved. Really, if you have the assistance of the head archdevil and a greater deity, you should be able to do a lot more... but still... Cyric!? If it had been a Bhaalspawn in a scheme to restore Bhaal's divinity a la Xvim/Bane, I would have found it more believable than Cyric, who has been something of a divine comedy (apologies to Dante Alighieri) since the Cyrinishad foul-up. I'm not saying I don't like what happened in "Prince of Lies" and "Crucible"; although I know a lot of people didn't like "Prince of Lies" at all, I personally thought Cyric went exactly the way I expected him to: madly off in the wrong direction.
To return to my central topic: the only gods in my Realms that have died or otherwise departed are Hoar, Tyr (silly Norse interloper!) and the Mulhorandi pantheon; thank you Garen for your thoughts on that last week; I don't believe I posted a response in that scroll. Anyway, I've talked about what my Realms are doing at some length in other scrolls, and all that's left for me to say here is, keep up the brilliant Musings! |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 05:23:24
This is why I love Candlekeep |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 03:24:10
I love your thoughts on what has happened to the gods. Great stuff, really!
I did want to share an alternate theory about Gruumsh for the sake of discussion.
That one little phrase about Gruumsh revealed as having been Talos all along really threw me when I first read it. I couldn't wrap my brain around it at first. But as I took some time to ponder it, I began to like the idea and found it dramatic enough to have some potential for fun story elements.
My theory is that at the dawn of time, when Selūne reached beyond the material plane to a plane of fire to draw the substance she used to craft the sun (by the way, could this have been the impetus for the war with the primordials? Did they take offense at her stealing from them?...) Shar was so hurt that Selūne would unilaterally destroy their equilibrium, she felt so betrayed, that she slunk off to her shadow realm to nurse her pain.
Remember that the Shadow Plane was attached to alternate cosmologies like Greyhawk and Krynn. I figure Shar's intense woe called out to a fiend, attracted from across the darkness like a moth to a brightly burning flame. Perhaps a yugoloth, or devil, maybe even Asmodeus himself, who honed her anguish, turned her thoughts toward revenge and tutored her in the ways of evil. I think this evil entity escorted Shar through Shadow to other spheres, made her introduction to evil gods and archfiends and helped her to amass an army to bring back to the Realms to attack Selūne and Chauntea.
I believe this is how devils and demons interloped to the Realms and thus why they have similar aspects in other cosmologies. Shar brought them to the Realms and promised them territory in exchange for their help in defeating her sister.
I think it possible that she enlisted the aid of Gruumsh at this time in exchange for her (future) assistance in bringing the orc race to Toril. But Gruumsh chose to aid her incognito, manifesting as a more primal aspect of destruction. Shar had the portfolio of secrets, so it was easy for her to aid him in this. By hiding his orcish affiliation, he may have been able to foster worship among humans and other races of Faerūn, thereby strengthening and expanding his worship base. So "destruction" was "born" in the War of Light & Darkness, but was secretly Gruumsh all along.
People tend to assume Gruumsh is dumb. But his intelligence score indicates him to be very cunning. I think it makes him more interesting to have maintained alternate identities (powerful ones) for so long. He may have appeared to have interloped much later with his pantheon, but he already had a presence in Faerūn for ages as the Torilian god of destruction.
I have a gut feeling that many of the gods that later interloped to Toril first fought with Selūne or Shar in the War of Light & Darkness. Selūne sought out help of her own by taking to the Infinite Staircase. Finding Oghma, he gave her wise counsel and helped her enlist a coalition of gods and celestials to fight on her side. Maybe gods like Tyche, Silvanus, Mielikki, Corellon, and Moradin were brought in to fight for Selūne.
Perhaps even Annam was won over by the charms of Othea, a mountain spirit, and handmaiden to Chauntea, who would later wed Annam and found Toril's race of giants.
And just as Shar promised her mercenary fiends territory in the Realms cosmology, so did Selūne in turn promise her allies a safe haven and many later immigrated with their pantheons guiding (or following) populations of their worshipers through portals, planar rifts, or across Shadow itself to Toril to make a new home.
This theory need not even conflict with your story. Perhaps the aspect of Talos had begun to fragment from Gruumsh, becoming more independent. Maybe this angered Gruumsh and caused Gruumsh to forcibly "re-integrate" his wayward alter.
Just as an afterthought, I wonder if Talos was ever worshiped under some aspect by other creator races. He might have had an Aearee aspect. Or perhaps even a draconic aspect/alias. What would be most interesting is if he had a fey aspect/alias. That would be very intriguing. Especially if you could link him to the Fomorians somehow. |
| GRYPHON |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 14:49:37
Very nice... |
| Neil Bishop |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 06:45:40
Once again, excellent. Thanks again for sharing. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 01:47:29
I have my own thoughts on where Grummsh might have come from originally, and his rivalry with Corellon, but beyond that, it seems to be implied in the Dragon article that Brian R James did about Auril that Grummsh was "reavealed" to be Talos, and the other gods of Fury turned on him.
I think I might have gone with Grummsh killing Talos earlier (perhaps around the time that Velsharoon split from him, since as you pointed out, that is a good place to note that Talos might have lost some of his power), and had been impersonating him for a least a little while.
But, as always, despite the disagreement, I do enjoy this article. I was rather fond of Obould's contention with Ilnevel, even though I always liked Ilneval. It makes sense for Obould, who always did seem a bit opportunistic, to look for a chance to advance his station in this matter. |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 23:17:30
I'll admit that the bit about Malar and Talos is a bit truncated. This is, after all, a piece about the Orc pantheon, and I wasn't going to let that tale overwhelm the rest of the story regarding their changes.
I also was unsatisfied with the option of having Gruumsh (an interloper god that arrived when Faerūn was already whole) secretly have had Talos (who was born, it is said, from the very first battles between Selūne and Shar) as an aspect. While it's true that divine timelines are often muddy, it's also true that there is an order to things, no matter how unclear.
So I came upon Gruumsh--a deity who's been killing other gods since he got to Faerūn, and would happily kill a whole lot more--and his assumption of Talos' faithful. Malar was a god that served Talos, but ultimately resented that position, happily stalking the elder god for as long as it took for him to tire and be brought down. Sure, I could have gone into more detail about the Talos issue, but I might do a whole Gods of Fury Musing later on, and I don't believe in showing my cards too early.
Still, mileage varies on that idea, and not everyone's going to be satisfied with everything I do in the Musings. I'm just glad to see people piping up about it. I know that there are other folks with other ideas here at the 'keep, and I want to see what they are! |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 22:18:42
I agree fully with ShadeofDis. I think that the Malar/Talos/Gruumsh conflict could be better described. But, the musing per se, is awesome. The best, until now. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 17:40:50
Nicely done.
Though I am a bit disappointed with the bit about Malar. I'll expand on that in a bit.
Otherwise, fabulous. |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 16:46:18
Gruumsh
Perhaps no deitynot even Sharbenefited so much from the Spellplague as Gruumsh did. He laughed gleefully as energy ravaged across the planes, exulting in the destruction, the savagery and madness it brought to the beings it touched, and the opportunity to lash out against other gods and godlings.
After ensuring Nishrek was stabilized, Gruumsh strode across the planes and dimensions nearest his, slaying two minor goblinoid divinities: Nomog-Gaeya, the god of hobgoblins, and Skigarret, bugbear demigod of fear. The One-Eye God used this brief swelling of power to breach into Furys Heart, and came upon Talos struggling desperately to hold his dominion together. Auril and Umberle had both abandoned Talos, their less destructive natures permitting a measure of peace to settle over their domains. Velsharoon had likewise sapped Talos power with his defection, a fact with the god of fury learned too late.
Malar, who had long waited to take down Talos, sensing his opportunity to strike, leapt upon the Storm Lord and bit him in the throat. Gruumsh strode forward andwith a triumphant laughthrust his spear into the Destroyers eye, wreathing the orc god in lightning and forcing Malar to run off before Gruumsh awoke to wreak more damage.
Gruumsh awoke to the prayers of his faithfuland those of Talos faith. His spear still danced with trails of lightning, and his clawed hands crackled with power. Furys Heart was no more, and Nishreks sky filled with stormclouds at Gruumshs new power.
Many who once worshipped Talos have no idea that his influence has been usurped by Gruumsh, who grants them powers as Talos did before him. The orcs, too, are unaware of the joining of the two dinvities, and it pleases Gruumsh to see the tribes of his worshipers contend to see which is the stronger.
Bahgtru
The Son of Gruumsh, like many lesser deities, was nearly destroyed when the planes themselves shook at the slaying of Mystra. Strong and stupid as ever, he stood between two pillars of rock in the center of Nishrek, believing that he was loyally protecting his father and mother from a disastrous collapse of their entire home. Focused on the true consolidation of his power and the protection of Nishrek, Gruumsh was content to allow his son his folly, heedless of the possibility that the Leg Breaker might perish in the attempt.
Bahgtru survived, somehow stronger and stupider as a result. He has lost a good deal of his warriors to Obould, and is now seen as the patron of pure physical strength and mindless prowess, followed primarily by barbarians and berserkers.
Ilneval and Obould
Shortly after the Spellplague, Ilnevalwho had long plotted to overcome Gruumshs son Bahgtru with clever strategemsfound himself confronted by the newly risen exarch Obould, the Chosen of Gruumsh. Ilneval had grown weak and treasonous in his scheming, where Obould had sharpened his craft in both single combat and general warfare. A brief but furious battle broke out between the two servants of the One-Eye, and in the end the upstart Obould overtook the War Maker, and replaced him at Gruumshs side.
Worship of Ilneval shifted to Obould, who sent a vision of Ilnevals bloody sword bursting into flame. The flaming sword is the symbol worn by the few priests of the new Horde Leader, who directs the power and passion of his faithful directly to Gruumsh. Obould guides the leaders and captains of orc hordes, particularly his descendants at the head of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows, as they carve larger and more powerful domains out of the terrain of Faerūn.
Luthic
While He Who Watches held Nishrek together, the mate of Gruumsh spent much of her divine energy preparing the halls and caverns of that plane for the changes that were coming. She counseled Bahgtru to hold up the Pillars of Nishrek in order to keep him from tearing apart the caves she was putting in order, and her loyal son obeyed.
The Cave Mother remains the patron of orc women, of wisdom, and of the home. As the orcs of Toril have begun to adopt (very slightly) more egalitarian views on the role of the sexes, Luthics influence over Gruumsh has grown. A few orc and half-orc females that strike out as warriors look to Luthic for guidance, and the Blood Moon Witch smiles knowingly at their worship.
Luthic is distrustful of Obould whonow that he has replaced Ilnevalmight seek to one day overthrow his own master, and is already looking with hungry eyes at her beloved son Bahgtru. Shargass is seen as a lurking nuisance, while Yurtrus (see below) is no more welcome within orc caverns and homes than his diseases are.
Shargaas
With the growth of power of Shar, the Lord of Night sees his time growing short. Nearly all of the elements of his portfolio are also claimed by the Lady of Loss in some fashion, and Shargass has made increasingly supplicating overtures toward Gruumsh to try and demonstrate his loyalty before the Mistress of Night takes notice of him and determines to eliminate and consume the weaker orc divinity.
Yurtrus
Talona had long grown tired of her competition with Yurtrus over the ravages of disease. When Zehir rose to claim the Mistress of Diseases portfolio of poison, Talona struck out against the Rotting One, whose white hands were turned black with a divine plague before he fell. The Mother of All Plagues thus grew into the unequaled and unquestioned ruler over disease and sickness.
Prayers to Yurtrus are still answered by Talona, though she maintains the silence of that former deity and does not send visions or beings to speak on behalf of the Lord of Maggots, instead allowing her silenceand the powerful spells of Yurtrus shamans and prieststo answer for her.
Vaprak, patron of ogres, was forced to flee Annams sight during the Spellplague, and sought shelter among the orc deities. Gruumsh granted this request, in exchange for ogre assistance with the conquests of his orc hordes. Although Vapraks priests allow this aid sparingly, they are grateful for the spears of the orcs when their tribes must face the rampages of their larger cousins, the giants.
Priests of the Orc Gods
Despite their growth and adoption of the civilization of the humans that live near them, many orcs still cling to the old ways. This means that their priests are often shamans or other primal worshipers rather than clerics, and that the clergy of all orc deities (except for Luthic) are male. The warriors are harbingers of change, but the priests and shamans of the orc tribes are the voices of the elder days, keepers of tradition and reminders of the will of Gruumsh. |
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