| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 13:52:13
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
The 3rd Edition Cormyr Supplement. The 3rd Edition Faiths of Faerún. Both would be good.
At the current time, Wizards of the Coast is not interested in articles set in the past. What I'm soliciting here are suggestions for D&D Insider articles set in the current 4th-Edition time period. Cormyr has already been covered in Dragon 365, but a series of articles on the gods and their churches seems very likely.
In order to not further derail that thread, I figured I'd post my reply here.
Brian here asked for feedback as to what people wanted to see from WoTC regarding the Realms. I gave my suggestion for a Cormyr book set post Death of the Dragon, and a Faiths of Faerún, something I know realms fans have wanted for at least 8 years, since the launch of 3rd Edition.
It is a shame then that they don't want to do this. Clearly, my English Pounds are no longer wanted by WoTC. This is a shame. I would have bought those two products in a heartbeat, but the designers don't want to provide them. Ah well.
I do, however, find one thing just a bit rich. We fans have been asking for things from WoTC for at least 8 years. How much of it have we seen made? Very little. Instead we see the trashing of the setting, much to the disgust of a lot of the fans here on Candlekeep.
And now? Now we are asked for Feedback! That's fantastic. Ignore requests for 8 years, trash the setting, then, finally, ask us hardcore fans for feedback. I'm afraid that just doesn't wash with me. We've been giving you feedback for the past 8 years, feedback you not only ignored but did exactly the opposite of.
When you want to get back to publishing the Realms, I'll be the first to buy. Till then..  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 23:55:19
I wouldn't expect any of them to give up their jobs. Let them do their best (within the confines placed upon them by management), and I certainly wouldn't expect them to speak out against the work they've done either (because they might as well just quit and go looking for a new job with how quick such behavior would get them canned)... but, like I said, making public statements about how great they think their new edition is will do nothing but elicit negative responses from me because I wholeheartedly disagree. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 19:19:03
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
You cant be at your peak crativity anyway if you hate what you are doing and this will be noticed eventually by the employers too, so why not just leave while your name isnt "tainted" too much?
I disagree that less-than-peak creativity will be noticed; not everyone, even in a creative job, has the chance to hit their peak.
As for leaving their jobs... The game industry is not a large one. Even when the economy is going well, finding a job within that industry isn't always easy. Most people aren't going to be willing leave a job to search for a position that may or may not exist in a small industry, especially during an economic crunch. Expecting them to do so is rather preposterous, I think.
Besides, some of the people you speak of were around for 3E. Some were even around for 2E. Just because some people think WotC's current trend is negative, it doesn't mean it's going to remain that way. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 18:11:12
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Of course not... but they don't need to volunteer praise either. Do their job and not say anything publicly about it. Of course, if they do go out and hype the new junk, then I've gotta take shots at them for doing so.
Well, they do have to help sell the product. Also, it's obvious to me that at least some of the designers truly do think that the new version of the Realms is an improvement--if so, they aren't being insincere by saying they love it. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 10:28:18
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Uh... Do you think they could stay employed for long if they badmouthed their company's flagship product? Someone who said, "Hey, I helped design this new version, and I think it's a steaming pile of bantha poodoo! But buy it anyway, so I can stay employed!" isn't someone who would be employed for long.
Of course not... but they don't need to volunteer praise either. Do their job and not say anything publicly about it. Of course, if they do go out and hype the new junk, then I've gotta take shots at them for doing so.
Well I think I already pointed out that other option in another thread: Leave WotC ... if someone is REALLY unhappy with the product they are working on this is the way it should be. I still wish a few would actually have the courage to do this, but thats probably just wishful thinking. The name of the designer is printed bigger than the name of the company on the product, so his name will be included in the "this is crap and he is responsible for it" opinion, no matter how many oaths someone swears he tried to fight it. You cant be at your peak crativity anyway if you hate what you are doing and this will be noticed eventually by the employers too, so why not just leave while your name isnt "tainted" too much? |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 21:11:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Uh... Do you think they could stay employed for long if they badmouthed their company's flagship product? Someone who said, "Hey, I helped design this new version, and I think it's a steaming pile of bantha poodoo! But buy it anyway, so I can stay employed!" isn't someone who would be employed for long.
Of course not... but they don't need to volunteer praise either. Do their job and not say anything publicly about it. Of course, if they do go out and hype the new junk, then I've gotta take shots at them for doing so. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 21:07:08
-Really? 
BRIMSTONE  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 20:48:28
You can tell a LOT about what certain people really think, by reading between-the-lines.
Don't look at what they are saying - look at what they are not.
people, believe it or not, will try to avoid directly lying, and would rather get evasive about certain things. I think I have a pretty good idea of who at WotC actually loves 4e FR, and who is just keeping their mouths shut about a lot of things. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 20:20:56
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I've stopped thinking about feedback I could give that would be positive since nothing I can say would be positive about 4th Edition. I realize that there are those that like the new rules and respect them enough to stop my harping on the subject.
My view on this isn't so much as respecting or trying to disrespect those other players who do like the new edition... but I will always speak out against the new edition as a matter of disrespect toward the designers who don't seem to care a bit about those who refuse to move on to the new edition.
Don't get me wrong, I understand creating the new edition wasn't their idea but rather from management (and possibly higher up)... what gets me is those who speak out in praise of the new edition and how great it supposedly is. In my mind, how dare they push that trash like its a worthy successor to previous editions. Its one thing to have to work on it because that's their job and they don't want to look for another, its completely another thing to say how great it is... and I have no respect whatsoever for those pretentious enough to think their new stuff is so great.
Uh... Do you think they could stay employed for long if they badmouthed their company's flagship product? Someone who said, "Hey, I helped design this new version, and I think it's a steaming pile of bantha poodoo! But buy it anyway, so I can stay employed!" isn't someone who would be employed for long. |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 19:42:57
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I've stopped thinking about feedback I could give that would be positive since nothing I can say would be positive about 4th Edition. I realize that there are those that like the new rules and respect them enough to stop my harping on the subject.
My view on this isn't so much as respecting or trying to disrespect those other players who do like the new edition... but I will always speak out against the new edition as a matter of disrespect toward the designers who don't seem to care a bit about those who refuse to move on to the new edition.
Don't get me wrong, I understand creating the new edition wasn't their idea but rather from management (and possibly higher up)... what gets me is those who speak out in praise of the new edition and how great it supposedly is. In my mind, how dare they push that trash like its a worthy successor to previous editions. Its one thing to have to work on it because that's their job and they don't want to look for another, its completely another thing to say how great it is... and I have no respect whatsoever for those pretentious enough to think their new stuff is so great. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 23:50:04
Okay... poll creation in progress... |
| arry |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 12:04:35
I am definitely interested in pre-4e lore and would be willing to pay for it. Please run your poll.  |
| Jakk |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 01:52:21
Precisely. Which is exactly why I'm not buying the 4e Realms books. (Sadly, I'd preordered the core books; biggest mistake of my life, I'm happy to say.*) If WotC wants to sell me more pre-Smellplague lore, such as the expanded Obarskyr/Silver family tree from 26 DR to 1385 DR, I will quite happily pay money for it, unless it involves DDi.
* - happy because there were a whole lot of much bigger mistakes that I could have made and didn't; none of them had anything to do with gaming. 
Edit: Yeah, I know I said a few posts back that I wasn't coming back to this scroll. I've calmed down a bit since then. In any case, even if my group gets tired of D&D, we're not playing 4E. I got my order from Noble Knight Games the other day: Castles & Crusades and the boxed set of v7.5 of Tunnels & Trolls, which (in an earlier edition) was the game that originally got me into RPGs way back in 1984. I started playing D&D in 1985, and switched to AD&D (first edition) in 1986. I've been playing in the Realms since the OGB in 1987, and I refuse to give up on the setting just because a couple of designers who weren't creative enough to build their own world thought it would be cool to blow up someone else's creation. Yes, I said earlier that I had calmed down. If I hadn't, I'd be naming names and flaming flames. In any case, enough vitriol. I should actually post the rest of this in the Feedback thread itself, since it's a request for existing unpublished lore to be made available on the website or via Candlekeep. If anyone reading this thread likes that idea, I have a poll on the subject (specific to Cormyr and Obarskyr lore, but I may be releasing a more general poll if people are interested in seeing pre-4e lore (no crunch) from Wizbro). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 22:58:28
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Maybe. I doubt it, given that WoTC and her lead designers have seen fit to ignore us for years, despite happily taking money. Our money.
Let's be fair, though. WotC can't take any money that isn't given to them via the sale of their products. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 09:57:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
The designers at WizBro don't care a whit about FR followers, and here's why: It's a dead theme.
Personally I think its NOT the designers who dont care, but rather the managers who demanded a new style of D&D.
I'm inclined to think it's a mix.
Some authors/designers have shown a great regard for past lore, while others have shown a greater willingness to disregard past lore for various reasons. In my opinion, those who stick to past lore are the ones who understand the setting and its appeal, and try to preserve it for the fans. Conversely, those who are willing to brush aside past lore are those who, in my opinion, are more concerned with making the setting serve their needs, not the other way around.
And while I do have a few specific names in mind for each category, I'm not going to list them.
At the beginning of all the problems that 4e FR has is the design / style change of 4e. Making a game like this compatible to "new audiences" is something that only an envious ("boohooo, WoW and Diablo are million sellers and we only make a profit"-whine) manager can come up with, who looks at the PROFIT first and only at 5th place comes the STYLE. Designers - especially those who have worked to make a campaign setting come alive - would probably start with a thought like: "Does this make sense?" or "How could this be explained?" or "How would this affect the rest of the world?". Thus the ultimate "blame" for 4e problems does lie with managers, even though some designers might have been easier to talk into a rewrite of the Forgotten Realms for 4e than others. Being allowed to start on a fresh page has an appeal for some, although most really lack the creativity to come up with something that would resemble the Realms which Ed Greenwood created. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 03:08:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I think we need a poll to truly determine that Wooley 
No need. I feel the truthiness of my statement. 
Is your name pronounced 'Ru-pear' by chance? Any relation to Steven Colbert? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 01:47:18
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I think we need a poll to truly determine that Wooley
No need. I feel the truthiness of my statement. |
| scererar |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 01:22:20
I think we need a poll to truly determine that Wooley |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 00:50:31
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Now, if Candlekeep turned round and said in one voice that we rejected the 4th Edition changes to the Realms as illogical, illthought out and just generally horrible, maybe that'd get people to listen.
That's not something we'd ever consider doing. At Candlekeep, we respect the choices of all individual scribes when concerning their dedication to an edition of Realmslore. I don't think it would be fair to reject the 4e Realms based solely on the opinions of some, when we obviously have other scribes, some new and some old, who are keen on what they've read in the FRCG.
Not only that, but while we may be a vocal part of the overall Realms community, we're also a small part. And we're not even unified in our opinions on the 4E Realms. Some here like them, some are neutral, and others loathe it.
Hells, the only thing that we all agree on, as a community, is that I am so utterly cool.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 00:45:15
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Now, if Candlekeep turned round and said in one voice that we rejected the 4th Edition changes to the Realms as illogical, illthought out and just generally horrible, maybe that'd get people to listen.
That's not something we'd ever consider doing. At Candlekeep, we respect the choices of all individual scribes when concerning their dedication to an edition of Realmslore. I don't think it would be fair to reject the 4e Realms based solely on the opinions of some, when we obviously have other scribes, some new and some old, who are keen on what they've read in the FRCG. |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 00:33:24
quote:
Based on the quotes I've read, I've come to believe that some designers (not all, but some) actually do like the new vision (usually their vision) of the Realms and genuinely think it improves the setting. Whether they are right or wrong is (I guess) yet again a topic for a different thread.
We know at least one designer likes his changes. I mean, why wouldn't he? He gets to stamp his name on a legendary RPG setting with what appears to be half a days half arsed work.
What makes me sad is seeing other designers stay quiet about this. Seems to be saying that as long as they get a paycheck, it's quite alright to see loyal fans for x number of years get screwed. Now, if Candlekeep turned round and said in one voice that we rejected the 4th Edition changes to the Realms as illogical, illthought out and just generally horrible, maybe that'd get people to listen.
Maybe. I doubt it, given that WoTC and her lead designers have seen fit to ignore us for years, despite happily taking money. Our money. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 23:01:28
quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
Sure, for you and me that's a great way to go! You take my words out of context though, as they were meant to be from Wulfgar's point of view.
Fair enough, although IIRC, it was retroactively explained that Wulfgar wound up being pulled into the Abyss before he could die, anyway. That being said, I'm not sure I think Wulfgar should have died in The Legacy, because I actually like him, even if I've come across no shortage of Drizzt fans who hate him. I've gotten the strong impression that RAS could never quite figure out what to do with the character after his return to Toril, but that's a subject for a different thread...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It'll never happen, since no one would ever be willing to literally throw themselves directly onto the fire, but god what I wouldn't give to at least see someone admit they care more about a (potentially) bigger paycheck than about their loyal fans of 20+ years. 
Well, I think it's more complicated than that. Based on the quotes I've read, I've come to believe that some designers (not all, but some) actually do like the new vision (usually their vision) of the Realms and genuinely think it improves the setting. Whether they are right or wrong is (I guess) yet again a topic for a different thread. |
| Neo2151 |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 21:52:54
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
Dying in combat is incredibly honorable. Dying of old age is sort of pathetic.
I see nothing pathetic about having lived a long life, but I'll leave it at that.
Sure, for you and me that's a great way to go! You take my words out of context though, as they were meant to be from Wulfgar's point of view. When your entire life is measured by your battle prowess, you tend to think in such ways. After all, you aren't allowed into Valhalla by dying in bed after a long life .
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If it's not a direct quote, I'm not saying it. I already have a tendency to skirt the line with what I (as a mod) should and should not say. I'm not calling out a specific author or designer without a direct quote to back it up.
It'll never happen, since no one would ever be willing to literally throw themselves directly onto the fire, but god what I wouldn't give to at least see someone admit they care more about a (potentially) bigger paycheck than about their loyal fans of 20+ years. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 18:08:24
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
quote:
And while I do have a few specific names in mind for each category, I'm not going to list them.
Pah I say! We both, heck, we all know exactly who falls into those categories. Why exactly should we not be allowed to say their names?
Those designers in your second category essentially told us long time fans that we are no longer wanted. Why shouldn't we acknowledge who they are?
If it's not a direct quote, I'm not saying it. I already have a tendency to skirt the line with what I (as a mod) should and should not say. I'm not calling out a specific author or designer without a direct quote to back it up. |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 17:55:33
quote:
And while I do have a few specific names in mind for each category, I'm not going to list them.
Pah I say! We both, heck, we all know exactly who falls into those categories. Why exactly should we not be allowed to say their names?
Those designers in your second category essentially told us long time fans that we are no longer wanted. Why shouldn't we acknowledge who they are? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 21:21:00
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
The designers at WizBro don't care a whit about FR followers, and here's why: It's a dead theme.
Personally I think its NOT the designers who dont care, but rather the managers who demanded a new style of D&D.
I'm inclined to think it's a mix.
Some authors/designers have shown a great regard for past lore, while others have shown a greater willingness to disregard past lore for various reasons. In my opinion, those who stick to past lore are the ones who understand the setting and its appeal, and try to preserve it for the fans. Conversely, those who are willing to brush aside past lore are those who, in my opinion, are more concerned with making the setting serve their needs, not the other way around.
And while I do have a few specific names in mind for each category, I'm not going to list them. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 19:38:29
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Likewise, I don't believe Wulfgar was the hero of the Icewind Dale trilogy. But, that is my opinion, same as your opinion that Wulfgar was the hero because you liked him.
Actually, RAS' original intention was for Wulfgar to be the central character, but everyone jumped on the Drizzt fan bandwagon so fast that it would have pulverized the poor little drow's spine to dust if he'd been the one absorbing the impact. My problem is actually far less with Drizzt than with people who like something solely because it's popular. And there are a lot of them. Anyway, as you're about to say...
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Now, to get back on topic:
I've stopped thinking about feedback I could give that would be positive since nothing I can say would be positive about 4th Edition. I realize that there are those that like the new rules and respect them enough to stop my harping on the subject.
I've had enough of this debate too. Which is why I'm not returning to this scroll again. I've said what I needed to say, yesterday and on October 16, but it seems that every time I read this scroll again, someone has said something that I feel a need to respond to. It would be nice if I could just shut up sometimes.  And no, my big mouth has never resulted in a shiner. It just seemed like the right smiley to use. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 14:15:58
quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
Dying in combat is incredibly honorable. Dying of old age is sort of pathetic.
I see nothing pathetic about having lived a long life, but I'll leave it at that.
|
| kysus |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 12:28:47
hmm i could never get onboard with the whole removal of the untheric or mulhorandi powers or anything that people think are taken from real life stuff, fanatasy and mythology are to closely connected for one to consider that option, you may as well just get rid of the monster manual while your at it cause the majority of the creatures in there are taken from mythology and usually have a connection in some story or another with one of those deities that people seem to want to get rid of so quick. Its one thing to not have something in a campaign world because it doesn't fit the theme or what not but another just because it resembles something to close from which we are already drawing heavily from in the first place, theres almost nothing in the ancient fanatasy world that hasn't come from mythology. The way i look at it if we are going to start divorcing certain things from fanatasy worlds for those reasons we may as well try to divorce fanatasy from mythology all together but we probally wont have much of a fanatasy game after that.
As far as the other stuff goes i would have to disagree with the concept of the designers not caring about any of us, cause if that were true then i doubt they would be visiting websites like this putting in their opinions just like the rest of us, somethings just might be beyond their control. I also have to disagree with the mechanical reasons as well i dont think the class determines how good a character is or how well it would do in combat against another class but more of the situation and the atmosphere the characters or in, a fighter could potentially defeat the mage just as the mage could defeat him and there is no game out there where all the classes are equal including whitewolf which more or less uses races as their sort of class. I also look more to the writers skill in bringing his character across to make it a rememberable hero than whether the hero died a spectacular death or not, cause a character can die in the coolest way but nothing will get the readers attention if a writer can't bring any of that across to the reader.
anyway just my 2bit cents on all that |
| Pandora |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 08:52:50
quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
The designers at WizBro don't care a whit about FR followers, and here's why: It's a dead theme.
Personally I think its NOT the designers who dont care, but rather the managers who demanded a new style of D&D. Computer-game-lookalike, tabletop and easy to manage (less story, more action) are all things that "required" the death of the traditionally many-faceted Forgotten Realms. If many of the "top designers" have been overruled during the design of the new FR I am asking myself: Who has the power to do that? Answer: Managers!
IMO Drizzt needs to die because he became boring after the first six books. Too much of a good thing can change it and ruin it. Its the same for movies: Sequels may be a "safer bet" to produce, but too often they are bad in terms of the story. So he should die to never have the risk of another bad sequel (well they could always add a bad prequel, but you know what I mean). |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 04:45:23
*sigh*
Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel all traveled to the Undying Lands, ensuring their immortality. Boromir's death was very epic in the books, and propelled the story forward, but he was not the hero of the book.
Likewise, I don't believe Wulfgar was the hero of the Icewind Dale trilogy. But, that is my opinion, same as your opinion that Wulfgar was the hero because you liked him.
As for George R.R. Martin, I read the first novel, didn't like it, so I stopped buying the next few novels.
Now, to get back on topic:
I've stopped thinking about feedback I could give that would be positive since nothing I can say would be positive about 4th Edition. I realize that there are those that like the new rules and respect them enough to stop my harping on the subject. |
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