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Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Cadderly is no longer CR 12, but more like CR25... (latest Drizzt book portray him as a very powerful caster, able to destroy evil artifacts)

Gromph may have "years", but according to his latest fight against the Dyrr lich, I get the feel Cadderly would have whooped his "aged" bum so to speak.

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Originally posted by The Simbul

Cadderly could defeat Gromph.

Fzoul has previous slain Manshoon..or rather, one Manshoon.

However there are few (if any) named cleric, druid, or other divine spellcasting NPCs who are on par with Elminster, the Simbul, or Larloch.

One exception is Rivalen Tanthul, however his 33 class levels are evenly divided among cleric, wizard, and shadow adept, so he is as much of a mage as he is anything else. Meanwhile, even with a Challenge Rating of 35 he would still be weaker than the previously mentioned archmages, unless he has unmentioned special abilities or extensive wealth that should somehow exceed that of the aforementioned personages.

Moreover, after reading the Twilight War so far, including the short story anthology, I do not imagine he is going to survive much longer.

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(i.e. priest of Tempus could ask for an entire opposing army or horde to be destroyed; priest of Ilmater could protect a whole city from being destroyed by a natural disaster; priest of Lathander could ask for the destruction of an evil site or say, Zhentil Keep, and request that the said site be reborn in his image; priest of Tyr could singlehandedly bring justice to a whole country, with all criminals immediately appearing within a designated jail, with a list of their sins, crimes and convictions written in glowing red ink on their skin, etc.)

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Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

The epic level party I DM *does* cast Miracle every day. It *is* that good. The only thing one must remember is that you are asking a particular god to perform a miracle, so use of this spell comes with a heavy system of RPing checks and balances. If Miracle is cast too often and for frivolous uses, I usually have that cleric PC meet with a member of his/her outer planar "senior management..." (happened twice so far, for the same PC). Have any of you played or DMed a high-level party? Mine has 6 players, each with a level 24 PC. What about you?

As for Wish vs. Miracle, if you want to nitpick the wording, I'll quote the SRD here, since some of you seem to like making comments on things you haven't read about.

Have a nice day.

WISH:
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Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.
Even wish, however, has its limits.
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
• Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
• Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
• Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
• Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
• Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
• Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
• Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
• Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
• Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
• Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
• Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
• Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)
Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).
Material Component: When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.


MIRACLE:
=======================
Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
A miracle can do any of the following things.
• Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
• Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
• Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
• Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.
• Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
• Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
• Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost: 5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above).

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Originally posted by Firestorm

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Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Technically Miracle and Wish have their differences... albeit similar in nature, Miracle is definitely superior: if used with the 5,000XP version, provided the request is in line with your god's ethos, there's virtually no limit to that spell's power...

(i.e. priest of Tempus could ask for an entire opposing army or horde to be destroyed; priest of Ilmater could protect a whole city from being destroyed by a natural disaster; priest of Lathander could ask for the destruction of an evil site or say, Zhentil Keep, and request that the said site be reborn in his image; priest of Tyr could singlehandedly bring justice to a whole country, with all criminals immediately appearing within a designated jail, with a list of their sins, crimes and convictions written in glowing red ink on their skin, etc.)

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Uh, Miracle does not have THAT kind of power. At least not in any sourcebook I have ever seen. Miracle has almost the same, and sometimes, less, power than Wish from all sources I have viewed

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Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Technically Miracle and Wish have their differences... albeit similar in nature, Miracle is definitely superior: if used with the 5,000XP version, provided the request is in line with your god's ethos, there's virtually no limit to that spell's power...

(i.e. priest of Tempus could ask for an entire opposing army or horde to be destroyed; priest of Ilmater could protect a whole city from being destroyed by a natural disaster; priest of Lathander could ask for the destruction of an evil site or say, Zhentil Keep, and request that the said site be reborn in his image; priest of Tyr could singlehandedly bring justice to a whole country, with all criminals immediately appearing within a designated jail, with a list of their sins, crimes and convictions written in glowing red ink on their skin, etc.)

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Originally posted by The Simbul

Fzoul has previous slain Manshoon..or rather, one Manshoon.

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Originally posted by Firestorm

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Originally posted by The Red Walker

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

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Originally posted by jordanz

Are the most powerful priests in the Forgotten Realms on par with the most powerful wizards? Would Cadderly stand a chance against Gromph?
Could Fzoul take Manshoon? Could any priest hold his own versus the likes of Elminster, Larloch, or the Simbul?

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I could give you many reasons whey a priest is more powerful then a wizard at high level. Beside Miracle which is more powerful the any wizard spell (my opinion), a high level cleric can easily get help from other believers, temples and so one.

Miracle
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm

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Miracle seems to be nothing more than a priestly version of Wish.

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But a Wish always has a Xp cost, you can cast Miracle in several usefull ways and avoid that cost.

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Disagree. I think Wish is a more powerful spell than Miracle. Miracle will still cost a boatload of XP if you use it for anything extremely powerful. For less powerful needs, there are already tons of spells to use instead of wish. Miracle also is limited to things within the Patron Deities alignment. Wish is not bound thus.

My favorite depiction of the wish spells in a novel thus far has to Be Paul Kemp's "Midnight's mask".
Spoilers:

Vhostim, the 10000 year old Githvirik level 40CR+ Psionicist/Archmage uses the weave tap(Magical item which can store the drained power of Mythellars/Mythals and use the charge to focus into a spell) to cast Wish twice without losing XP. First, after single handedly attacking and killing every member of one of the twin towers of eternal Eclipse in 30 minutes(100 Cleric and warriors of Cyric), he uses the wish spell to completely transport the tower from one location in Faerun to another. The tower, which is made up of Magic enhancing crystal, magnifies his second spell along with the weave tap. He uses the power of the spell to remove one of the Giant Meteors orbiting Selune and create a permanent Lunar eclipse for the duration of the power of the weave tap. When said power is gone, the Meteor then plummeted over Sembia, separated on reentry into millions of pieces and became known as the "Rain of fire", single handedly doing more Damage than the entire Rage of Dragons to all of Sembia and some of the surrounding lands.

It was funny watching 2 of the most powerful casters in faerun(2 sons of Telamont Tanthul) gape when they found out "A wizard cast the rain of fire???"

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Originally posted by The Red Walker

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

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Originally posted by jordanz

Are the most powerful priests in the Forgotten Realms on par with the most powerful wizards? Would Cadderly stand a chance against Gromph?
Could Fzoul take Manshoon? Could any priest hold his own versus the likes of Elminster, Larloch, or the Simbul?

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I could give you many reasons whey a priest is more powerful then a wizard at high level. Beside Miracle which is more powerful the any wizard spell (my opinion), a high level cleric can easily get help from other believers, temples and so one.

Miracle
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm

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Miracle seems to be nothing more than a priestly version of Wish.

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But a Wish always has a Xp cost, you can cast Miracle in several usefull ways and avoid that cost.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

quote:

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Originally posted by jordanz

Are the most powerful priests in the Forgotten Realms on par with the most powerful wizards? Would Cadderly stand a chance against Gromph?
Could Fzoul take Manshoon? Could any priest hold his own versus the likes of Elminster, Larloch, or the Simbul?

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I could give you many reasons whey a priest is more powerful then a wizard at high level. Beside Miracle which is more powerful the any wizard spell (my opinion), a high level cleric can easily get help from other believers, temples and so one.

Miracle
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm

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Miracle seems to be nothing more than a priestly version of Wish.

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Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

quote:

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Originally posted by jordanz

Are the most powerful priests in the Forgotten Realms on par with the most powerful wizards? Would Cadderly stand a chance against Gromph?
Could Fzoul take Manshoon? Could any priest hold his own versus the likes of Elminster, Larloch, or the Simbul?

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I could give you many reasons whey a priest is more powerful then a wizard at high level. Beside Miracle which is more powerful the any wizard spell (my opinion), a high level cleric can easily get help from other believers, temples and so one.

Miracle
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm

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Originally posted by Khaelieth

There's a bunch of them around the Moonsea. Check the sourcebooks.

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Remember too that there are powerful characters of all classes who have never been mentioned in the novels or sourcebooks.

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Originally posted by jordanz

Are the most powerful priests in the Forgotten Realms on par with the most powerful wizards? Would Cadderly stand a chance against Gromph?
Could Fzoul take Manshoon? Could any priest hold his own versus the likes of Elminster, Larloch, or the Simbul?

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Originally posted by MerrikCale

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Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Remember too that there are powerful characters of all classes who have never been mentioned in the novels or sourcebooks.

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who would those be?

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Originally posted by MerrikCale

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Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Remember too that there are powerful characters of all classes who have never been mentioned in the novels or sourcebooks.

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who would those be?

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Well, now. “Swordsmen” you say, so I’m going to narrow my reply down to: male living (not dead or undead) humans.
I’m going to further qualify my reply by saying that among the most skilled masters of bladework, “best” becomes a matter of opinion regarding style, and the average observer can’t identify (let alone properly interpret) most subtle differences because they’re either dead too quickly, or too dazzled by things that happen too swiftly for them to see properly and too deftly for them to measure or grasp the implications of (matters of shifting a foe just a little off balance, or forcing a movement in stance or location, that will lead to a killing stroke three or four maneuvers later).
Moreover, “best” is a steadily shifting title, even when one sets aside divine and magical meddling, because (as with real-world tennis) youthful speed and acrobatic suppleness, plus freedom from injuries and the slowing and crippling effects of aging (on, say, the human knee), must always be balanced against the experience gained in duel after duel after battle: young swordsmen are always rising to the fore, but only step into the ranks of the “best” when those more expert through real-life practice grow too slow to defeat the most skilled younglings (or the younglings overcome their inexperience).
I’m also going to restrict myself purely to matters of bladework, in a one-on-one fight in surroundings that favour neither combatant. In other words, I’m minimizing “street smarts” or dirty fighting or the adventurers’ experience in exploiting traction, lighting, obstacles, distractions, and all of that: factors that seasoned adventurers (like Durnan of Waterdeep) can use to defeat foes who might be a shade faster or a whit better in pure bladework. This will work against Artemis Entreri, for example, but also against a host of other adventurers whom I won’t even mention in this reply, but who might otherwise show up in my answer.
(Personally, I’d rather not do any “best of” rankings, because I think they’re subjective, snapshots of moments in time that are dated even as they’re made, and a bit pointless. Even in pure-skill tournaments, upsets occur, and if a DM wants to create an unknown who’s better than the individuals mentioned here, go right ahead.)
However, I probably possess the best overview of the entire tapestry of the Realms of anyone (though not all that far ahead of, say, Messrs. Boyd and Krashos, closely followed by Schend, Hunter, and Grubb), and can speak from that strength - - not being limited, for instance, by published Realmslore.
So you’re really going to have to trust me here, when I say that the best bladesman in the Realms right now (1375 DR) is: Harmel Artru, a darkly handsome, agile, glib-tongued and lady-charming merchant seacaptain (and sometime pirate), who sails The Winsome Lady independent caravel out of Saerloon (and a secret base somewhere in the Pirate Isles).
Only a whisker-width behind Artru is Loaros Hammarandar, a broad-shouldered, grim giant of a man who can hurl his prodigious strength and bulk around like an acrobat, and is an ever-wary-of-treachery mercenary warmaster currently under hire by Narubel, who commands “the Swift Sword” cavalry force used to quell bandits and unrest in that city and its surrounding farms (and dedicates himself to quietly eliminating all threats to the current rulership, prosperity, and status quo in Narubel).
Close behind Artru and Hammarandar are Skoalam Marlgrask and then Sraece Telthorn.
Skoalam Marlgrask is a professional duelist who travels Chessenta as the champion of whomever sponsors him in duels, making huge sums (because everyone locally knows he’s “the best” in duels, and so tries to outbid opponents seeking to hire his services) that are usually paid in gems and used by Marlgrask to immediately buy property, notably an ever-expanding string of inns and taverns. Marlgrask is polite, saturnine, nondescript of looks but quietly luxurious of dress, and seems able to sense danger (crossbow snipers, for instance) before it can reach out for him. He’s known to be resistant to many natural poisons (having learned this the hard way), but now takes great care regarding what he eats and drinks (hence his purchase of many inns and taverns).
Sraece Telthorn is a smallish, agile, almost feminine man who can dance, tumble, balance, and spring with a skill and precision matched only by the greatest acrobats (once leaping off a parapet to land perfectly balanced on a sloping, protruding flagstaff far below, for instance, and often springing over the slashing swords of opponents). He teaches “swordplay” (fencing) in Yhaunn and Waterdeep, and is believed to travel between the two by means of secret portals of unknown origin and location. Telthorn lives simply, is unambitious (avoiding power and important patrons, and giving much of his coins away), and is beloved by many pleasure-lasses of Waterdeep, who regard him as a kind friend or honorary brother as well as a frequent client.
I’d put the infamous Artemis Entreri after Telthorn, though I could be persuaded to rank two other male human bladesmen between them: Ulmaer Rivrymm of Sheirtalar (a smiling, wax-mustached man of good nature but lightning-swift reflexes and keen sight, who is personal bodyguard to the Overking of Lapaliiya, and can juggle scimitars to entertain), and Aka ‘the Questmaster’ (the mysterious sponsor and trainer of adventurers) who dwells, these days, in the wilderlands of the Sword Coast North.
If I widen my reply to include human females, two must be inserted: Ember Tsartaera between Hammarandar and Marlgrask, and Lyaunthra Aldegal between Marlgrask and Telthorn.
Ember Tsartaera is the tall, cool of manner and sparing of words Knight of Arms (weaponsmaster, or trainer of bodyguards and soldiers) to Lord Albin, ruler of Furthinghome in Aglarond, where she dwells. Ember dresses plainly, lives in spartan surroundings, and is always under iron self-control, keeping to herself and crafting masterwork swords when she’s not practising using them or training others to do so; she never raises her voice (though she can be coldly, cuttingly firm), is always alert and anticipating trouble, and has an acrobatic fighting style; she’s famous in Furthinghome for catching hurled daggers and arrows in flight.
Lyaunthra Aldegal has recently settled in Waterdeep, though she still retains homes in her three previous bases: Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and Secomber. “The Lioness” is a superb maker of bladed weapons and tools (who learned her skills from her now-dead parents), who can resharpen and balance almost any fragment of a mistreated item. She owns and travels between small weapon shops in Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and Secomber, and specializes in finding just the right weapon for a client, and in weapons-training and -practising with select clients. Known to have ironguard protection afforded by a wearable item (a choker or anklet, most believe), she’s also known to be able to withstand great pain, once (in the days before her ironguard protection) slaying a killer who’d put his blade through her hilt-deep, and then (despite being hit by both acid and fire magics) staggering through four rooms to get healing potions, managing to drink them and pluck forth his blade without passing out. Aldegal is a fire-haired, rugged-looking woman who takes numerous lovers, arrives and departs quietly and unexpectedly, and is seldom to be found where one expects to find her.
Quite a roster.
If I now widen my reply further, to include elves, half-elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes (note that I’m still excluding shapechanging races and multi-armed intelligent “monsters”), I’d put Maethrammar Aerasume between Artru and Hammarandar, and Drizzt Do’Urden JUST behind Marlgrask.
However, ask me this a year from now (Realms time), and - - even if there haven’t been fatalities - - these rankings may have shifted around quite a bit. As I said, among individuals of this skill, determinations are whisker-thin.



So saith Ed. Whew. Warned you, didn’t I? What Ed and all of we original players share when reading or listening to debates about “bests” and most this or that of the Realms is that there’s so much as-yet-unpublished Realmslore about this everchanging world that Ed crafted and continues to detail and expand, right alongside other writers (so the argument that “well, we can’t go by Ed’s original, we can only discuss the published Realms, that’s diverged so much from his original” goes right out the window). I happen to agree with Ed that rating “best” bladesmen is a bit pointless because it’s so subjective, changes so fast, and has such little practical roleplaying value - - but I fully understand Feanor’s curiosity in wanting to know. It’s a longing to know and understand the Realms more fully that we all share.
And I hope we will always continue to do so!
love to all,
THO

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Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Remember too that there are powerful characters of all classes who have never been mentioned in the novels or sourcebooks.

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Originally posted by Faraer

You don't survive to high level by engaging in one-on-one pitched battles with evenly matched foes, which is one of the main reasons 'who would win?' is artificial and meaningless.

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