| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Na-Gang |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 19:29:44
I'm sure this must have been asked somewhere before so I won't bother the Sages with it, but I was wondering how the inhabitants of Waterdeep feel about living on top of Undermountain?
How do they feel about all those monstrous denizens, not to mention the criminal goings-on in Skullport? How do the Lords feel about it?
Obviously one person will probably feel very differently to the next, but for your common man-in-the-street/fishwife-in-the-market/noble-at-play - how do they feel?
Do they think "Oh, this is the North - everywhere is dangerous, and if we are to live anywhere why shouldn't we live in prosperity near the hearthfires, surrounded by walls, and Guards, and Wizards aplenty?" or do they think "Gods of Fury! I would get out of here if I could, but I have so little, and there are the children, and it's so much trouble even thinking about it, and we could die on the road, oh woe..." ?
Just wondering what your thoughts were, scribes a-plenty. |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 10:35:41
True, I wouldn't consider all the nobles all that "noble". |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 13:33:51
quote:
Originally posted by Pasta Fzoul
It really shouldn't seem strange that Waterdeep benefits from centralizing and isolating its criminal activity; real-world cities throughout history have done exactly the same thing by means of quasi-official "red light" districts, as well as willfully ignoring the crime that occurs in certain ghettoized areas (often to the detriment of those areas' law-abiding citizens).
I don't think people are seeing it as strange or unrealistic, they just see it as evidence of hypocrisy among the supposedly goodly leaders of the city.
That being said, it's not as if everything is perfect topside. Waterdeep never did strike me as a utopia--it's a very stratified society and the city has more than it's share of seedy and/or unpleasant sections. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 10:38:22
quote:
Originally posted by Pasta Fzoul
It really shouldn't seem strange that Waterdeep benefits from centralizing and isolating its criminal activity; real-world cities throughout history have done exactly the same thing by means of quasi-official "red light" districts, as well as willfully ignoring the crime that occurs in certain ghettoized areas (often to the detriment of those areas' law-abiding citizens).
I guess that means that to our world, Skullport would be the ghetto of Waterdeep  |
| Pasta Fzoul |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 03:24:26
It really shouldn't seem strange that Waterdeep benefits from centralizing and isolating its criminal activity; real-world cities throughout history have done exactly the same thing by means of quasi-official "red light" districts, as well as willfully ignoring the crime that occurs in certain ghettoized areas (often to the detriment of those areas' law-abiding citizens). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 23:48:27
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
So have the publicly-given reasons for the Lords of Waterdeep tolerating its presence: it enriches Waterdeep greatly, making possible all the wealth and great selection of wares and bustling progress that “advances us all,"
So Waterdeep prospers partially because that horrible place exists? If I was waterdhavian I wouldn't be proud about that at all. It seems...hypocritical...to say that Waterdeep is a fantastic city, since the main reason for said fantasticity seems to be due to the authorities ignoring a settlement that wouldn't be out of place in the Abyss.
Think about how some otherwise lawful and good cities have been the unfortunate victim of the corruption and evil associated with the kind of activities that can be found in Skullport. Consider then, how they've often been brought down because of said activities. Then imagine what Waterdeep would be like today, had those same activities been located above, and throughout the City of Splendors itself. All that "wealth" and "great selection of wares" and "bustling progress" would be severely compromised.
While the reality of Skullport is not a actual solution to the problem, it is an surprising alternative. It makes it easier for the Lords of Waterdeep to control such activities if they can potentially limit where and when they occur.
That the Lords acknowledge that these corrupt issues can and will attract the interest of the less lawful and more fiendishly-inclined, is of paramount importance as well. Rather than ignoring them outright, or trying vainly to curb the activities through official means, the Lords understand that no matter how much the law is applied, sinister individuals will still find ways to ply such evil trades. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 22:26:23
I must admit, that does have a dystopian ring to it. |
| khorne |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 21:27:07
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
So have the publicly-given reasons for the Lords of Waterdeep tolerating its presence: it enriches Waterdeep greatly, making possible all the wealth and great selection of wares and bustling progress that “advances us all,"
So Waterdeep prospers partially because that horrible place exists? If I was waterdhavian I wouldn't be proud about that at all. It seems...hypocritical...to say that Waterdeep is a fantastic city, since the main reason for said fantasticity seems to be due to the authorities ignoring a settlement that wouldn't be out of place in the Abyss. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 12:31:43
Now the question must become, how would "we" feel as citizens of Waterdeep? |
| Na-Gang |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 23:19:36
See? I knew it would've come up before.
Excellent comments, thoughts, findings, tidbits, and lore as always. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 23:14:57
And, also, this from Ed back in July '05:-
"Now, as for Skullport: I doubt Waterdhavians would ever go into unrest over the mere existence of Skullport; I can only see unrest occurring if nightly raids on the city that clearly came from Skullport(such as by bands of Drow or other "known to be of the Underdark" creatures, coupled with the inevitable lurid rumours) began and went on for days without any response from the authorities.
The existence of Skullport is common knowledge in Waterdeep, and has been for years.
So have the publicly-given reasons for the Lords of Waterdeep tolerating its presence: it enriches Waterdeep greatly, making possible all the wealth and great selection of wares and bustling progress that “advances us all," and it neatly provides a place for dangerous beings (wizards and drow and illithids and the like) to trade in valuable and sometimes dangerous goods, and "keep all that away from all of us who never have any reason to venture down there." In other words, you as a citizen or resident of Waterdeep enjoy great prosperity and safety that you would not, if Skullport didn't exist. Among all the lurid legends and tall tales of goings-on in Skullport are tales "planted" as reassurance, such as: "And if anything ever gets out of hand in Skullport, the Blackstaff has all sorts of spells 'hanging ready' to take care of it all: invaders from there will get blasted to dust! In the meantime, he and Laeral take their apprentices down there for training, and Watchful Order magists, too, so they can blast a few monsters and remind everyone not to try anything with Waterdeep, or - - blam!"
So if adventurers did "tell everyone else about it “they’d probably get responses of: "Uh-huh. 'Sware the bad folk trade, and go, and they deserve whatever befalls them. Glad the Lords keep it all out of OUR hair, anyroads!"
Ed"
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| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 23:12:48
Well, it's fair to assume a significant portion of the "criminal underground" and those with a less lawful-bent at play in Waterdeep appreciate the reality of Skullport.
As Ed said in September '05:-
"The drug trade in Waterdeep is largely confined to Skullport (dealing, storage of large amounts): “topside” or in the city proper there is no drug production and only runner-to-client selling, face to face (some nobles send their stewards, bodyguards, or trade agents to buy)."
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| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 21:34:45
IIRC, young nobles sometimes go "hunting" in Undermountain, provided the area is safe.
I'm not sure that many people are aware of Skullport, aside from the Lords and so on. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 20:12:00
BTW, that's not to imply that the Lords simply ignore all the bad stuff in Skullport. Some of them do work against it, but it's a delicate game they have to play, for the reasons named above. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 20:05:26
I'd imagine most Waterdhavians don't think too much about Undermountain. Sure, they know it's there, and they know it's dangerous, but other than adventurers going there and the one-time event that was Halaster's Harvestide, it's not something that really affects their lives. So it's kind of an "out of sight, out of mind" thing.
Skullport is another story. It's a semi-mythical place, as far as most surface dwellers are concerned. Most Waterdhavians will have heard of it, and will certainly know that it's a wretched hive of scum and villainy. But it's so disconnected from them it might as well be half a world away. And with it being "distant" and so enshrouded in dark tales, many people won't fully believe it exists -- it's a dark tale told to frighten children, not something real, they'd think. Sure, some people will know the truth, and have perhaps even been there -- but they are few and far between, compared to the rest of Waterdeep's population.
The Lords, on the other hand, know as much about Skullport as some of its inhabitants -- if not more than many of the commoners of Skullport. Many Lords have been to Skullport, and either visit frequently and/or send their agents to do so. They are quite interested in what goes on in the Port of Shadow, since it can affect the City of Splendors above.
Skullport is Waterdeep's dark twin. The Lords -- particularly some of the more good-aligned ones -- don't like having such a lawless and chaotic place directly under their feet. But it serves a purpose: it's a place where anyone of any race can walk, and where anything, including slaves, can be bought and sold. The only laws in Skullport are those of the Skulls themselves, and essentially amount to "don't rock the boat". People inclined to crime and evil acts often go to Skullport instead of Waterdeep; in the Port of Shadow, hidden Lords aren't looking over their shoulders and interfering with their commerce. Skullport is a safe harbor for evil folk, and as such, draws off the criminal element that would otherwise ruin Waterdeep's hard-earned image as a city of just laws and readily flowing wealth.
So, despite their feelings on the matter, the Lords know that Waterdeep is a necessary evil. For the City of Splendors to remain good, the evil it would otherwise attract has to be allowed to thrive in Skullport.
Additionally, even if the Lords were willing to challenge the rampant lawlessness, it's simply too much for them to take on. The Skulls aren't the only evil power in the Port of Shadow, and there's no easy way to get soldiers down there. The various power groups in Skullport are well entrenched. Rooting them out would cost a lot of men and magic, and it would simply drive the evil elsewhere -- possibly even back upstairs, into Waterdeep. |
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