| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Mar 2008 : 22:46:09
Just a thought I figured I'd throw out there. Larloch's Crypt is filled with undead magically under his control. I wonder what kind of travesties happened as a result of the spellplague? Presumably it may have been safe if he had something akin to a mythal to protect it, but I'd be hard pressed to believe that all of those undead were within its shielding. Did the Twisted Rune grow in membership as a result maybe? This could make for an interesting little plot where a party must work with Larloch in order to suppress the activities of beings formerly under his control. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 13:33:44
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'm just saying that they seem to have been changed for 4E (or, more accurately, they are a different creature with the same name)--
Now, where have we seen that before? Maybe with the Dragonborn? 
Yeah.  And eladrin. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 10:46:05
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I think it would be very interesting if he lost control of a large proportion of his undead.
I like the whole of your idea a lot.
Would make for some interesting adventuring.
Cheers
Damian |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 21:35:40
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'm just saying that they seem to have been changed for 4E (or, more accurately, they are a different creature with the same name)--
Now, where have we seen that before? Maybe with the Dragonborn? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 15:37:37
Man, this went way off topic <g>. I put forth that Larloch should survive the spellplague (though someone could easily put forth that all his triggered magic overloads and destroy him or his connection to his phylactery... neither would be wrong). The question isn't his living or dying, the question is what do you think would be a really good way to use him and his interaction as a result of the spellplague, assuming he lives? I think it would be very interesting if he lost control of a large proportion of his undead. Not enough to actively make him vulnerable, but enough that there might be liches, mummies, vampires, etc... who have seized portions of Faerun, formed armies, created coalitions of like minded evil groups, taken revenge on other evil individuals who got them entrapped by Larloch, etc...
I'll put forth another thing with him. When Karsus' Folly occurred, Larloch was very near Dun-Tharos, capital of Narfell.... which was the place where the Seltormiir clan of Illythyri were guided to by Wendonai millenia ago when it was known as Narathmault... which was an evil den of demonic activity even before they arrived. The Narfellians used lore from Dun-Tharos to create Dun-Orthass (citadel of conjurers) which they then used to bind Eltab to this plane. Larloch gives Tharkorsil's seat and the Death Moon Orb to Szass Tam to enslave Eltab. The two seem tied. Also, the fact that Eltab is lord over the "Hidden Layer" of the Abyss and that the areas Narfell controlled are riddled with "demoncysts" brings up another commonality that suggests perhaps Eltab's layer of the Abyss has been somehow tied to Toril. That the fall of Narfell was marked by some kind of planar rupture caused by "the Dark Fissure" also lends itself to this. Throwing into this mix that Bahamut saw fit to provide Damara with protection from demons in the form of the Gem-Tree, I'd say we may see the Great Dale, Thesk, and portions of Impiltur & the Vast decimated by abyssal beings.
Hmmm, something else just popped in my head... would it not be interesting if when these abyssal being appear, its Larloch that shows up with his undead to save the day? There's no reason that undead and fiends should get along actually... in fact, both prey on the living. Of course, he'd naturally try to create some composite between undead and fiend (isn't there a demonic vampire already?)
Of course, some will say "just wait for the book to come out", but I've always felt that putting out guesses gets the creative blood flowing. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 15:08:09
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe I'm just being paranoid...
Sorry. 
It's OK.
quote:
Anyhow, I was just checking a few things, and guess what? Arthaus/Swords & Sorcery, the guys who licensed Ravenloft for 3e (which WotC has recently taken back), refered to the Shadow Elves as the Shadow fey...
Hey, I believe you. I'm just saying that they seem to have been changed for 4E (or, more accurately, they are a different creature with the same name)--there is even a picture of a S-K in W&M. She looks like a goth chick who's pierced her body all over. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 23:07:01
Maybe I'm just being paranoid...
Sorry.
Anyhow, I was just checking a few things, and guess what? Arthaus/Swords & Sorcery, the guys who licensed Ravenloft for 3e (which WotC has recently taken back), refered to the Shadow Elves as the Shadow fey...
So there you go.
They were officially renamed 'Fey' in a licensed 3e product, so the term 'Elves' was a misnomer from the beginning.
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I was not debating that, I was just stating that trying to escape from a Spellplague-torn Toril to the Spellplague-torn Planes made little sense.
I was agreeing with you.
Larloch SHOULD live, DESPITE the fact that the entire Universe is effected by the Spellplague, because according to WotC, the SP "flows around" areas of powerful magic.
Of course, that means Gods and Halruaa shouldn't have been affected either, but we all know tha the 'Spellplague' is VERY selective. 
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 22:31:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Do you find fault with EVERYTHING I say? 
Am I coming off like that? If so, I'm sorry (seriously).
In 4E, from what I recall, Shadar-Kai are in fact humans who made a pact with the Raven Queen (4E Death Goddess, who is neither good nor evil btw). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 20:58:43
Who's says they don't?
The Spellplague appears to have 'shattered' the Multiverse, which means that Shar and Mystra were even more 'Primal' beings then we imagined - their battle probably went far beyond just Toril.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Having read about the Shadar-Kai in W&M, I can attest that they aren't elven at all, though I don't doubt that the name is a legacy of the RL setting (which I'm not familiar with, btw).
Do you find fault with EVERYTHING I say?
In Ravenloft, The Shadow Elves were really Shadow Fey, ergo, the connection. They renamed them, obviously because 'Elves' no longer means what it used to, and because it was never 'quite right' to begin with.
So the 'Shadow Elves' were always Fey that were corrupted by living in the plane of Shadows, before moving to RL's Shadowrift. If they don't move all of RL into the Shadowfel, I have a feeling they will at least tie-in the RL history of the Shadowrift (it was quite extensive, and would be a complete waste not to use it).
By the way, if they keep the terminology from RL, we will see Sith Lords in FR! Hows that for a kick in the head? Sith, traveling through the Astral Seas from world to world, using their connection to the dark si.. Shadow Source to bring pain and misery to Universe.  |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 20:04:54
Anyhow, since it's now a shared cosmology then how do they explain the Spellplague in other settings? And why didn't it bleed into other material planes? |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 19:53:52
quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
This presumes that all magic comes from the Weave
No it doesn't. It's a question of where and when the Weave leaves off. Do persistent enchantments, made using the Weave, use the Weave or do they exist independent of the Weave? Is the Weave basically just the big ol coffee filter, taking out those nasty chunks of pure magic and leaving a nice steaming cup o' easy to use magic?
I mean damn, I guess it has to be that persistent enchantments don't use the Weave (which makes me wonder why all those flying cities fell the first time the Weave dropped... though I guess one could say that the way then enchanted used the Weave and typical enchantments don't. . . but where's the line?) but does that mean that effects that have a concentration requirement use the weave the whole time? Just at casting?
quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
Further, access to said pure, unmitigated magic has been possible since before the birth of Mystra from Selune's rivalry with Shar. The Elves came to Faerun of their own accord, as did the Dragons. They were not born of Faerun, and both had long-established mastery of magic aeons before Mystra existed.
GHotR put a chronology on those events? I haven't managed getting to a store (hate shopping of any sort) so I haven't picked up a copy.
But, supposing you're totally correct, why would a mage from another world use the Weave rather than pure magic? They don't come from a world with the Weave but they sure do use it when they get to FR.
Further, I can't imagine that it's canon that (Say DR 1350) Elves and Dragons don't use the Weave. One has to wonder at what point they started using the Weave and why.
quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
Given that magic has become practiced to the point of being reflexive by Humans and the mundane races (Orcs, Dwarves, etc), the mundane races no longer need to rely upon the "safety blanket" of the Weave to work art. They have joined the Dragons and the Elves in their fledgling command of the art. The true question is whether or not, without Mystra's order, the "Earth Shattering Kaboom" magics of pre-Karsus time will be possible.
What? Are you serious? Does a canon source say that magic is ok to use because the "mundanes" have become used to it? Seriously?
And without Mystra there to stop it the "Earth Shattering Kaboom" magics were possible with the Weave (Example is Larloch, unless the explanation for his access to such magic was that he was casting with "pure magic"). So unless someone is there to stop it then that level of magic should be available. |
| Stonwulfe |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 19:31:51
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Regardless, he could have been in another plane, the Spellplague could have "flowed around" his strong enchantments (which, again, begs the questions "How do enchantments survive the collapse of the Weave? Do permanent enchantments not use the Weave? At what point does an arcane spell become independent of the Weave? Is it the caster that requires the Weave? Is it the way one casts a spell that takes the Weave into account? What about divine spells and enchantments?)
This presumes that all magic comes from the Weave, which is not the case. Both GHotR and MoF clearly indicate that the Weave is not the source of magic, but a conduit facilitating the use and ease of magic for the mundane (non-inherently-magical) races. The use of unmitigated, unshaped magic is what allows for Spellfire (not to be confused with Silverfire, divine in origin). It's just that most people don't have the facility or talent to draw upon and channel raw magic, or the will to impose their order on the world. -- I doubt this is a problem for the likes of Larloch.
Further, access to said pure, unmitigated magic has been possible since before the birth of Mystra from Selune's rivalry with Shar. The Elves came to Faerun of their own accord, as did the Dragons. They were not born of Faerun, and both had long-established mastery of magic aeons before Mystra existed.
Given that magic has become practiced to the point of being reflexive by Humans and the mundane races (Orcs, Dwarves, etc), the mundane races no longer need to rely upon the "safety blanket" of the Weave to work art. They have joined the Dragons and the Elves in their fledgling command of the art. The true question is whether or not, without Mystra's order, the "Earth Shattering Kaboom" magics of pre-Karsus time will be possible. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 17:26:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Back on Topic:
Larloch SHOULD be able to survive easily, given all the facts about him and his power. However, with 4e, all bets are off, so we really don't know. The one thing that may save his arse though is the fact that he is an epic-level BADDY, not a good NPC, so he will most likely be stated out as a simple epic encounter in the new rules.
I was not debating that, I was just stating that trying to escape from a Spellplague-torn Toril to the Spellplague-torn Planes made little sense. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 17:22:53
Having read about the Shadar-Kai in W&M, I can attest that they aren't elven at all, though I don't doubt that the name is a legacy of the RL setting (which I'm not familiar with, btw). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 16:35:30
Its NOT exempt - Eberron's Cosmology already fits into the new Cosmology just fine.
In the Astral Sea float the main planes (Shadowfel, Feywild, Nine Hells, Elemental Maelstrom, The Outlands, etc...) along with many smaller 'Prime Planes' (Crystal Spheres?). Each of these small prime-planes have their mini-cosmologies that contain the local planes.
So everyone gets the SAME Demonweb Pits, or Mechanus, but only FR gets Brightwaters and only Eberron gets Dal Quor. So within each 'Sphere' (not sure if thats going to be the 4e term) the small planes will revolve around the primary, EXACTLY like in Eberron.
So FR's 'personal cosmology' will look a lot like Eb's, resembling a Solar System, or an atom.
And each of those little 'Solar Systems' will sit inside the Astral, along with all the 'Big Planes', which are now no longer anchored to the Outlands in a great big wheel. That doesn't mean anything has changed from the perspective of the Outlands, however, since the universe can't really be conceived by a mortal mind. So now, the Gate Towns become actual 'Gates' leading to far-off planes, but from their perspective, nothing has changed. I'm sure we will get the usual "Thats the way it always was" explanation, but it really doesn't change anything except for the picture of the 'Great Wheel' we had in our heads.
Also, they seem to have latched on to this concept of traveling to other worlds via the 'Astral Seas', so we may be getting a marriage of Spelljammer and Planescape in 4e.
I'm also fairly certain they are making Ravenloft a major part of the Shadowfel. The Shadar-Kai that live there are 2e RL's Shadow Elves.
Back on Topic:
Larloch SHOULD be able to survive easily, given all the facts about him and his power. However, with 4e, all bets are off, so we really don't know. The one thing that may save his arse though is the fact that he is an epic-level BADDY, not a good NPC, so he will most likely be stated out as a simple epic encounter in the new rules. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 15:55:56
It's ironic that the Realms used to have the same planar structure as other campaign settings, and it was decided that sharing planes was problematic. Now, part of the reason for this RSE is to change back to a shared cosmology, something that was previously disposed of without an in-game explanation.
But... Why is Eber-whatsit's cosmology exempt? |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 15:08:34
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
From that tid bit it seems that they want to do a shared cosmology again. . . which. . . would be a little difficult to explain why the Spellplague went into FR's planes and not other planes.....
I can't really say though, since I don't know enough of how the planes will be set up in 4e.
Rich has outright stated that the Realms will be adopting the 4e Cosmology, I asked him immediately after it was posted. Also, it is mentioned at the end of the GHotR (and by Rich in a couple of places) that the death of Mystra and the Spellplague tore apart the Cosmology creating the new one and causing the domains of all but Greater deities and the deities under their protection to be "swept away" (or something similar) in the ensuing maelstrom. IMO, a Spellplague-ravaged planes does not seem to be a very safe place to hide from a Spellplague-ravaged Toril. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 10 Mar 2008 : 18:54:39
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I don't understand why people think that if he had teleported to another plane that he would be fine, the Spellplague tore the the planes asunder as well, so they could adopt the new 4e Cosmology.
From that tid bit it seems that they want to do a shared cosmology again. . . which. . . would be a little difficult to explain why the Spellplague went into FR's planes and not other planes.....
I can't really say though, since I don't know enough of how the planes will be set up in 4e. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 10 Mar 2008 : 15:47:40
I don't understand why people think that if he had teleported to another plane that he would be fine, the Spellplague tore the the planes asunder as well, so they could adopt the new 4e Cosmology. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 10 Mar 2008 : 14:45:35
The answer is, whatever WotC wants to happen.
They may have no opinion on Larloch at this time, he's really not important when detailing a world. Put down an X in the wilderness, say "Here be Larloch, he can kill the PCs" and you're done.
Regardless, he could have been in another plane, the Spellplague could have "flowed around" his strong enchantments (which, again, begs the questions "How do enchantments survive the collapse of the Weave? Do permanent enchantments not use the Weave? At what point does an arcane spell become independent of the Weave? Is it the caster that requires the Weave? Is it the way one casts a spell that takes the Weave into account? What about divine spells and enchantments?)
However, all this is moot, Larloch will be dealt with one way or another and the explanation behind the dealing will be poor. (Well, Larloch decided the Symbul was cute. So he woo'd her and brought her to his crypt. Elminster then went on a jealous rampage and in the ensuing battle Larloch (+ liches) and the Symbul were consumed and the spell energies released all got absorbed into El's mind!) |
| Kheris |
Posted - 10 Mar 2008 : 14:38:52
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
I think along the same lines, and agree with what Rin said about the Sellplague . Just wanted to add a thought 'bout Larloch: If I were this lich, I'd try (and probably succeed) to create several hideouts on other planes. I would hide my phylactery there, so if the Weave in Realmspace would collapse (which happened already once), and I don't had the chance to whisk myself to a safe place, at least I'd be "reborn" on another plane where an unstable Weave is no danger.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a spell floating around that divides a phylactery into several shards? If not I made an epic one for a campaign that closed out over two years hence. If not, I wager at least one of my players will call me on it now 
Spoiler:
Also, as far as archmages and the Spellplague, give Undead a read. It's our first look at the effects of the blue fire, and a good read to boot. |
| Aureus |
Posted - 10 Mar 2008 : 14:09:38
How did Laroch survive the first collapse of the weave? Or did he become an lich after Karsus' folly? and even so wouldn't he know about that event and prepare a 12² of escape scenarios? |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 10 Mar 2008 : 13:57:28
I'm of the opinion that Larloch decided to hit up Sigil's club scene, myself. He probably thought that with everything falling down around the figurative ears of the Realms, he was due for a vacation. |
| tauster |
Posted - 10 Mar 2008 : 11:49:29
quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
Short of the no-doubt present rumors of Larloch being 'fifteen feet tall and shooting lighting bolts out of his behind' that most Faerunian folk are likely to circulate in taverns over bad ale, there are some things which can be said of Larloch with some degree of accuracy.
1. He has proven his ability to teleport, without evidence of error, into places to which teleportation is ordinarily denied
2. The layers upon layers of spell matrixes, mantles, micro-mythals, and contingencies that infuse his being and contain his spirit - maintaining his lichdom - are such that he literally sweats power
3. Larloch's lichnee 'commanders' have proven their ability to manipulate mythals and invade extradimensional spaces as easily as the Chosen and the Srinshee, and Larloch eclipses them in power at least fourfold
4. Larloch - a Netherese archmage first and foremost - escaped the destruction of the Weave at Karsus' Folly and has, in all likelyhood, forseen the Weave's potential failure
5. Larloch's plans, schemes, and experiments work on timelines that span generations of Elven lifespans
If Larloch even has to consciously exert effort to escape the Spellplague, I'll be shocked.
I think along the same lines, and agree with what Rin said about the Sellplague . Just wanted to add a thought 'bout Larloch: If I were this lich, I'd try (and probably succeed) to create several hideouts on other planes. I would hide my phylactery there, so if the Weave in Realmspace would collapse (which happened already once), and I don't had the chance to whisk myself to a safe place, at least I'd be "reborn" on another plane where an unstable Weave is no danger.
Of course I'm not Larloch, and did only think about that strategy for a few minutes. Our loved Lich most crafty has had a few centuries to come up with a more sophisticated plan. A score of plans, more likely. 
[rant]
...but then again, the gods couldn't resist the sellplague, and not even the multiverse itself made it's save against mutilation. I suspect the sellplague is the manifestation of a Far Realms intruding in the Realm's reality. Perhaps it is the legendary "Woo't'Zee the ill-conceived plot device", also known as The Unspeakable Manifestation of Un-creativity"
[/rant] |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 10 Mar 2008 : 00:30:54
quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
If Larloch even has to consciously exert effort to escape the Spellplague, I'll be shocked.
I wouldn't be, and here's why: the Sellplague already makes little sense. |
| Stonwulfe |
Posted - 09 Mar 2008 : 21:05:19
Short of the no-doubt present rumors of Larloch being 'fifteen feet tall and shooting lighting bolts out of his behind' that most Faerunian folk are likely to circulate in taverns over bad ale, there are some things which can be said of Larloch with some degree of accuracy.
1. He has proven his ability to teleport, without evidence of error, into places to which teleportation is ordinarily denied
2. The layers upon layers of spell matrixes, mantles, micro-mythals, and contingencies that infuse his being and contain his spirit - maintaining his lichdom - are such that he literally sweats power
3. Larloch's lichnee 'commanders' have proven their ability to manipulate mythals and invade extradimensional spaces as easily as the Chosen and the Srinshee, and Larloch eclipses them in power at least fourfold
4. Larloch - a Netherese archmage first and foremost - escaped the destruction of the Weave at Karsus' Folly and has, in all likelyhood, forseen the Weave's potential failure
5. Larloch's plans, schemes, and experiments work on timelines that span generations of Elven lifespans
If Larloch even has to consciously exert effort to escape the Spellplague, I'll be shocked. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Mar 2008 : 18:34:18
Well, according to Rich's original Countdown article, the Spellplague "flows around" areas of immense magical power, so Larloch should be safe.
Of course, that makes no sense WHAT-SO-EVER!
Why did Halruaa blow-up then?
Oh... thats right... they explained that... they said the Spellplague effected certain areas worse then others, without rhyme or reason...
Well, I'll give you a friggin' reason... BAD plot device!
The current design team invented a 12th level spell called Protect this because I like it!
The Spellplague should just be re-named for what it really is - the 4th edition creeping doom!
Sorry... another 'Mace' moment...  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Mar 2008 : 17:01:58
Honestly, as an existing bit of Realmslore and one that's been around for quite some time, I expect Larloch to be removed thru some bit of illogic. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 09 Mar 2008 : 16:42:10
Any archmage worth his salt would have moved to other planes the minute reports of the Weave crashing reached them. Ok, sure... many wizards have low wisdom... and could have been in the "I won't believe it until I see it camp," but any "smart/wise" archmage would have a backdoor exit in case things start falling off of the sky... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 Mar 2008 : 14:35:42
-Well, in a few months, we shall see... |
| StarBog |
Posted - 09 Mar 2008 : 00:53:21
From what we know of Larloch, he'll have contingencies, no doubt. The general feeling I get regarding Larloch is that he's whatever the DM needs him to be. Having said that, it would be nice actually if he did survive the sellplague, largely unharmed, and more than just a little bit pissed off that his great Protectress is now seemingly gone (not that I'm agreeing with the whole Sellplague nonsense, mind you) |
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