| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 03:05:29
Comparatively speaking. How does Manshoon stack up against others, like say, each of the chosen(Other than Elminster, who always beat him easily), Szass Tam, Priamon Rakesk and other liches of the rune, The princes of Shade(individually), etc etc. Or are they closer to weaker Wizards, such as Vangerdahast(Weaker lol), or even less strong wizards like Gromph Baerne, etc
Same with Fzoul Chembryl.
Both of these cats are supposed to be big bad guys who started the Zhentarim. Im just trying to figure out who they are comparable to.
I know stats often do not reflect Canon. Vangerdahast is not much higher than 19-21CR, but he handled Rivalen Tanthul in ROTA, and Rivalen is over 30CR
You can quote stats and explain, or simply books an explain. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 19:00:30
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
The High Blade of Mulmaster joined the Inner Circle of the Zhentarim early on in 3.x (perhaps the Forgotten Realms 3.0 book?...can't recall off the top of my head) because it is no longer the "real" High Blade, but his "eviler" (if that is a good word???) twin brother that killed him and then made the deal with Fzoul.
Phlan I'm sure was mentioned in the GHotR...I think they even had a sidebar about it...but would have to look again.
I want to say it was in Mysteries of the Moonsea. There's also a good bit of info on Fzoul's activities in Cloak & Dagger. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 18:11:13
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
The High Blade of Mulmaster joined the Inner Circle of the Zhentarim early on in 3.x (perhaps the Forgotten Realms 3.0 book?...can't recall off the top of my head) because it is no longer the "real" High Blade, but his "eviler" (if that is a good word???) twin brother that killed him and then made the deal with Fzoul.
Phlan I'm sure was mentioned in the GHotR...I think they even had a sidebar about it...but would have to look again.
The Mage in the Iron Mask is another novel I have trouble with accepting as anything but a kender-tale. I tend to forget the "evil- twin" thing. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 18:08:56
The High Blade of Mulmaster joined the Inner Circle of the Zhentarim early on in 3.x (perhaps the Forgotten Realms 3.0 book?...can't recall off the top of my head) because it is no longer the "real" High Blade, but his "eviler" (if that is a good word???) twin brother that killed him and then made the deal with Fzoul.
Phlan I'm sure was mentioned in the GHotR...I think they even had a sidebar about it...but would have to look again. |
| Kheris |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:50:21
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
I like your reasoning. Fzoul has gained more though: Phlan, Mulmaster and Hillsfar make three really strong gains. I'm sure Melvaunt and Thentia are only a breath away from being wholly taken over by Zhentilar soldiers too. Fzoul lost face in the novel (which happens to the bad guys in novels) but in the gaming supplements, he has gained alot.
I still see him falling from grace soon though...or being obliterated by Manshoon, Chosen status not withstanding. Even as a Chosen of Bane, Fzoul is still no match for Manshoon...his willingness to allow Manshoon to have anything to do with the Zhentarim after attempting to undo him shows he has no long term grasp of how to ensure his own safety! I mean, if I attempted to force myself into the Oval Office by means of a coupe, I don't think I would then turn around and say: Mr. President, please feel free to continue working with the government and military as you see fit!
Recipe for a good can kicking.
Very true about keeping Manshoon around 
What supplements are those other gains in, or did I skim past them in the GHotR? I honestly thought that Hillsfar was his only gain.
Not to derail, but it's great to see the Elves being dangerous opponents. The terms of that disengagement must be a real slap to Zhentarim morale. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:40:43
I like your reasoning. Fzoul has gained more though: Phlan, Mulmaster and Hillsfar make three really strong gains. I'm sure Melvaunt and Thentia are only a breath away from being wholly taken over by Zhentilar soldiers too. Fzoul lost face in the novel (which happens to the bad guys in novels) but in the gaming supplements, he has gained alot.
I still see him falling from grace soon though...or being obliterated by Manshoon, Chosen status not withstanding. Even as a Chosen of Bane, Fzoul is still no match for Manshoon...his willingness to allow Manshoon to have anything to do with the Zhentarim after attempting to undo him shows he has no long term grasp of how to ensure his own safety! I mean, if I attempted to force myself into the Oval Office by means of a coupe, I don't think I would then turn around and say: Mr. President, please feel free to continue working with the government and military as you see fit!
Recipe for a good can kicking. |
| Kheris |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:27:59
I've always preferred an arrangement where Manshoon was just biding his time until overthrowing Fzoul was feasible, both tactically and politically.
[Cue Mr. Serling]
Submitted for your approval, a Manshoon content to wait for Fzoul to die, or fall out of Bane's favor.
He's already lost Shadowdale and Scyulla Darkhope to adventurers, and was forced to parley with Cormanthyr (go Elves, go!). In this Fzoul must have lost a fair number of troops for minimal gain. As for Hillsfar? Not much of a coup, seeing that the Fey'ri did all the work for him.
Fzoul could be on the road to losing his Chosen status, and if that happens, I could see Manshoon killing him ASAP and having the internal political power within the Black Network to keep them from fracturing. Consider that the loss of face Fzoul would suffer, and that the clergy of Bane may view it as weakness, which is never to be tolerated.
Alternately, Manshoon could just diguise himself as Elminster and blast him in public, then make a powergrab, assuming any witnesses were
A: Fooled by his illusions/polymorph/whathaveyou
B: Even know what the Old Sage looks like.
Mayhap I'm reading too much into this...  |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:23:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Why is Fzoul always drawn as blond when he has been described as a redhead?
Because WotC either fails to give their artist descriptions of what they are painting, or they give descriptions and then don't worry about whether or not the artists match it. Considering the drow skin debacle (when they decided that since artists couldn't get the skin tone right, that the description should be changed!), I think it's the latter.
I really want to give them more credit than that, but the evidence speaks against it. 
Yes, the drow skin issue is annoying. Along with Fzoul's hair and Drizzt's perpetual golden head plate.
As far as "flighty" clerics go (that is, clerics who switch deities all the time), the worst one I've ever seen was in the Watercourse trilogy. That was kind of ridiculous and hard to believe, but funny. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 03:17:39
For me, Fzoul is the craziest kind of priest ever. He's one for hire. Sort of like 8-bit's Cleric. Really, he's just in it for the goods and the actual dogma means little.
If Bane ever betrays Fzoul, I'm sure he'll take up with Shar or whatever other god that he wants to worship instead of him (Fzoul-Cleric of Azuth!). I find that kind of attitude to be refreshing.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 02:47:31
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Why is Fzoul always drawn as blond when he has been described as a redhead?
Because WotC either fails to give their artist descriptions of what they are painting, or they give descriptions and then don't worry about whether or not the artists match it. Considering the drow skin debacle (when they decided that since artists couldn't get the skin tone right, that the description should be changed!), I think it's the latter.
I really want to give them more credit than that, but the evidence speaks against it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 01:50:06
Why is Fzoul always drawn as blond when he has been described as a redhead? |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 01:20:32
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Then again, I love the thought of Manshoon's clones operating like Doctor Doom's Doombots, thinking that they actually are Manshoon until they run up against the REAL Manshoon, which keeps adversaries paranoid and on edge.
Hmmmm... How about one of the Manshoon clones jumping one-hundred years ahead into the proposed "100-year time jump" of future Faerūn. Whereupon it becomes the central character in setting for a brand new series of adventures, fittingly titled -- ManshooN 1485 DR.
In this new setting, we find a mysterious being named Tyger Wylde, which some have labelled a warforged, has taken over the future Manshoon's home city of Zhentil Keep, ruling it with a eye toward the bottom line of his ever-expanding financial empire. The future Manshoon, upon arriving in 1485 DR, immediately becomes aware of just how corrupt and decayed his once beautiful homeland has become under Wylde's rule. Deciding at once to challenge this warforged tyrant, the future Manshoon heads to Zhentil Keep. Caught unprepared, he was quickly defeated.
Seriously beaten the future Manshoon quickly found refuge with the last remnants of Zhentarim, who assisted him in creating a new and powerful suit of armor capable of competing with Wylde's technology. The future Manshoon was able to defeat Wylde and gain control of his home city. Whereupon the future Mansoon then decided that Faerūn had become chaotic and corrupt and that to save it, he had to conquer it.   
<smirk>
As for Fzoul...I have never liked the character. He had some small appeal before the Time of Troubles...but after that I had no use for him at all. Perhaps it's my overwhelming sense of not being controlled or whatever, but after the Time of Troubles stuff...well, I just couldn't relate to the guy at all.
I'm actually looking forward to him not being around any longer...at least that is my hope.
Comparing him to other priests, I remember that there are tons of clerics of higher level than him in the Realms. The 2e book that detailed several cities (can't remember the name...and don't want to pull out the storage crates) had several clerics that were higher level than Fzoul in the various cities.
Not until 3.x did I consider Fzoul more than a lackey cleric honestly. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 00:59:03
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Then again, I love the thought of Manshoon's clones operating like Doctor Doom's Doombots, thinking that they actually are Manshoon until they run up against the REAL Manshoon, which keeps adversaries paranoid and on edge.
Hmmmm... How about one of the Manshoon clones jumping one-hundred years ahead into the proposed "100-year time jump" of future Faerūn. Whereupon it becomes the central character in setting for a brand new series of adventures, fittingly titled -- ManshooN 1485 DR.
In this new setting, we find a mysterious being named Tyger Wylde, which some have labelled a warforged, has taken over the future Manshoon's home city of Zhentil Keep, ruling it with a eye toward the bottom line of his ever-expanding financial empire. The future Manshoon, upon arriving in 1485 DR, immediately becomes aware of just how corrupt and decayed his once beautiful homeland has become under Wylde's rule. Deciding at once to challenge this warforged tyrant, the future Manshoon heads to Zhentil Keep. Caught unprepared, he is quickly defeated.
Seriously beaten the future Manshoon eventually finds refuge with the last remnants of the Zhentarim, who assist him in creating a new and powerful suit of armor capable of competing with Wylde's technology. The future Manshoon is able to defeat Wylde and gain control of his home city. Whereupon the future Mansoon then decides that Faerūn has become chaotic and corrupt and that to save it, he has to conquer it.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 23:01:56
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Then again, I love the thought of Manshoon's clones operating like Doctor Doom's Doombots, thinking that they actually are Manshoon until they run up against the REAL Manshoon, which keeps adversaries paranoid and on edge.
Yes! Exactly the way I think about Manshoon...but didn't want to mention a Marvel Comic here. LOL
To add to what I was saying earlier, I would pit Manshoon against any Red Wizard...simply because his magic isn't limited to certain schools. He is the most versatile fella on the block as far as badguys go. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 22:56:56
I've always seen Manshoon as one of the most powerful wizards in the Forgotten Realms...that is alive and without a god's backing.
I'd gladly place him at odds with the Red Wizards. There are (by Ed's writings at least!) so many minor wizards in the Zhentarim that they could easily, if mustered, form an army all alone!
I remember in 1st Edition he was only perhaps level 13; but I don't want to dig out the box to find out...those old yellowed pages are precious you know! Even then, he was a powerful wizard and shouldn't be messed with. Of course, that was back in the day when a certain wizard that was only level 3 had lots of magic rings and was considered a serious threat in the sourcebooks. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 22:55:40
I think Manshoon had the potential to be one of the nastiest villains in the setting, a real mastermind that has a thousand plots going at once, and the multiple clones, if handled properly, could have been great "red herrings," for when the PCs run into one, defeat it, and think that they have finally ended the Manshoon threat, only to find out that they only ran into an "old," intentionally less powerful clone that was there just to keep the PCs busy.
Then again, I love the thought of Manshoon's clones operating like Doctor Doom's Doombots, thinking that they actually are Manshoon until they run up against the REAL Manshoon, which keeps adversaries paranoid and on edge. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 21:31:52
A novel on the formation of the Zentharim to get a better idea of the internal politics and power plays, as well as the individual ambitions and goals, of the inner circle would be a dream for me, but I wont exactly hold my breath. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 20:27:04
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm sure I saw a topic around here somewhere...
Hmmm...
You know, I think it's a shame that the Manshoon Wars plot got nipped in the bud. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 20:24:05
I think it would be interesting to see a novel on Manshoon. Not necessarily the Manshoon wars, but focusing on the one of or all three of the remaining Manshoons. Not that it really matters. Who knows who will still be around after the spellplague... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 20:19:06
I'm sure I saw a topic around here somewhere... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 19:55:56
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I'm not saying that the way Ed handled it is "bad", I'm saying that it may not work for the average D&D campaign.
Then I don't think your words matched your intended meaning. |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 19:41:53
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
It means that IMHO, Ed's answer doesn't fit the "official" D&D game and that I know you don't like me talking about such thing.
For goodness's sake, the FR was a STORY setting before it was a game setting.
I'm not saying that the way Ed handled it is "bad", I'm saying that it may not work for the average D&D campaign.
BTW, I won't discuss this anymore until some things are cleared up with the mods. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 19:23:22
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
It means that IMHO, Ed's answer doesn't fit the "official" D&D game and that I know you don't like me talking about such thing.
For goodness's sake, the FR was a STORY setting before it was a game setting. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 05:19:29
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
It means that IMHO, Ed's answer doesn't fit the "official" D&D game and that I know you don't like me talking about such thing.
The Realms doesn't always exactly fit the rules, which are not the same as the game, and it needn't (but by all means argue otherwise). But I think even the basic rules of D&D (whatever version) offer scope for the effect of such knowledge, even if DMed as unimaginatively as you prefer, contrary to almost all 'official' DMing advice -- let alone with a little creativity and some Realms sourcebooks, unless you think Volo's Guide to All Things Magical defies the nature of D&D.quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The original World of Greyhawk boxed set included a preface that was told from the point of view of scholars looking back on the history of Oerth who had created a mathematical model to simulate the battles and abilities of those people and events of the past. The point was then made that no theoretical model could perfectly simulate the reality that was being discussed. So I guess 1st edition Greyhawk wasn't "official" D&D either, by that standard.
Yes, it's interesting to compare Ed and Gary's framing. Different men as they are, their gaming philosophies have more in common than a lot of people realize. |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 02:26:00
What a fascinating debate! I learned a lot from you all. Thanks for the lore. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 01:32:54
You know, I think it'd be pretty damn funny if there's like a hundred and fifty Manshoons living in the Wall of the Faithless because all of them were atheists. Then your player offers to set them free.
;-)
Yes, too bad that Manshoon wouldn't really reward you for it. He's not the honorable type. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 00:33:18
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
** Cough cough Kuge should stop reading at that point **
That's really cute, but not D&Dish
UH? What the hell does that mean?
It means that IMHO, Ed's answer doesn't fit the "official" D&D game and that I know you don't like me talking about such thing.
There's no need for that Skeptic. And it's just plain nasty. I've already cautioned you about such discussions, twice as I recall. Rein your comments in, or I'll refer the matter to Alaundo directly.
This is your LAST warning!
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 00:30:13
The original World of Greyhawk boxed set included a preface that was told from the point of view of scholars looking back on the history of Oerth who had created a mathematical model to simulate the battles and abilities of those people and events of the past. The point was then made that no theoretical model could perfectly simulate the reality that was being discussed. So I guess 1st edition Greyhawk wasn't "official" D&D either, by that standard. |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 00:21:20
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
** Cough cough Kuge should stop reading at that point **
That's really cute, but not D&Dish
UH? What the hell does that mean?
It means that IMHO, Ed's answer doesn't fit the "official" D&D game and that I know you don't like me talking about such thing. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 00:14:51
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
** Cough cough Kuge should stop reading at that point **
That's really cute, but not D&Dish
UH? What the hell does that mean? |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 00:07:43
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Elminster easily beats Manshoon repeatedly not purely due to a power inbalance, but because El knows things about Manshoon (his truename, many of his "hanging" spells, his shieldings and mantle, how to activate many of his usually-worn items; many of the Chosen can use the Weave to "see" such things, and turn the items and spells of an opponent gainst them), and thus "has his number."
And there's another thing, as a general point about the Realms, I've explained and re-explained on the Wizards boards until I lost track of which paraphrases I'd used.
** Cough cough Kuge should stop reading at that point **
That's really cute, but not D&Dish |
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