| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 00:25:51
Right. First off, I do feel sad that I feel a thread like this is needed, but it's become obvious to me that it is. There have always been those who simply do not get the Realms, and criticise it for a variety of reasons, most of which have no basis in fact. With the announcement of 4th Edition, these people seem to have gotten very vocal on various gaming websites. It would also appear that WoTC designers have been influenced by these comments, and are changing the Realms to address some of these highly flawed criticisms. Which, sadly, there is not much we can do about. However, we can address those criticisms in a fact based way and show them to be the nonsense that they are.
What I propose is this. We gather together a list of of the usual criticisms levelled at the Realms, and answer them, using sources as often as possible. So, for instance, under the 'Elminster is a Mary-Sue' criticism, we would have Ed Greenwood invented the character when he was Eight, Ed Greenwood has repeatedly said that he's not, Elminster was always intended to be a background character etc etc. A collection of responses to some of the more common flawed criticisms levelled at the Realms may help a great deal.
Good idea? Anyone want to help?  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 11:05:52
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Yeah...I could never understand how Mystra just let it lay around for so long really.
If the Karsestone IS the reason for Cyric and Shar fooling Mystra, or somehow shielding Cyric from her magic when he killed her...well, they better have a good reason she would leave her own doom laying around! LOL
Well, if it created a blind spot, then she wouldn't have known she was leaving her doom laying around.
Well, I can't imagine that with all of her Chosen knowing about the place (and I'm sure Elminster at LEAST did) that she wouldn't have found out. Even if she couldn't sense it herself, surely she wouldn't remain ignorant of the fact if someone outright told her to her face that it existed.
Not being able to SEE the truth is one thing...but being told the truth...well...I guess people delude each other all the time; but I just don't see it happening.
I'm not talking about a place -- I'm talking about the stone itself. And just the Karsestone.
In fact, if it was a blind spot for her, what's to say the same wouldn't apply to her Chosen? |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 06:22:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Yeah...I could never understand how Mystra just let it lay around for so long really.
If the Karsestone IS the reason for Cyric and Shar fooling Mystra, or somehow shielding Cyric from her magic when he killed her...well, they better have a good reason she would leave her own doom laying around! LOL
Well, if it created a blind spot, then she wouldn't have known she was leaving her doom laying around.
Well, I can't imagine that with all of her Chosen knowing about the place (and I'm sure Elminster at LEAST did) that she wouldn't have found out. Even if she couldn't sense it herself, surely she wouldn't remain ignorant of the fact if someone outright told her to her face that it existed.
Not being able to SEE the truth is one thing...but being told the truth...well...I guess people delude each other all the time; but I just don't see it happening. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 06:07:30
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Yeah...I could never understand how Mystra just let it lay around for so long really.
If the Karsestone IS the reason for Cyric and Shar fooling Mystra, or somehow shielding Cyric from her magic when he killed her...well, they better have a good reason she would leave her own doom laying around! LOL
Well, if it created a blind spot, then she wouldn't have known she was leaving her doom laying around. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 03:29:50
Yeah...I could never understand how Mystra just let it lay around for so long really.
If the Karsestone IS the reason for Cyric and Shar fooling Mystra, or somehow shielding Cyric from her magic when he killed her...well, they better have a good reason she would leave her own doom laying around! LOL |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 03:08:29
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I disagree, Shar will make whatever investment she has to on the long term plan that it will result in the destruction of everything. She lacks the kind of grasping greed that dominates the consciousness of Bane and Cyric (both whom have Chosen). I confess, it's unlikely she'd choose someone JUST powerful like Telamont.
She'd need someone either insane or incredibly nihilistic.
Even to advance her goals, I don't see Shar willingly sharing her power. We don't have much evidence of her doing that before...
Nope...and the Karsestone would have been a good example.
Maybe THAT is how she and Cyric kill Mystra...some fell artifact constructed out of the "God" that killed her before?
I had a similar thought, which is why I didn't bring up the Karsestone. My new theory is that since the Karsestone belongs to a former deity of magic, it created a blind spot for Mystra -- kinda like how in the comics, after bonding with the symbiote that became Venom, Spider-Man lost the ability to sense it with his spider-sense. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 03:06:10
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Cough, Wooly, Shar does have a Chosen according to the Underdark sourcebook but, as far as I know, it's never been flushed out further then saying that she has one.
True -- but I'm thinking this Chosen isn't a Mystra-like Chosen. That's why I was careful to mention that earlier. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 03:05:04
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well she grants spells to priests and she shared the Shadow Weave.
Yeah, but neither of those take away from her divine essence, and it helps accomplish her goals. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 02:24:04
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
You show me ONE ancient Pantheon of earth that DIDN'T meddle (or a modern one for that matter)...and I'll stop playing D&D. So all the dang whining I hear about the "gods interfering too much" is just not really a matter of concern for me.
The Deist version of God.
But seriously, I agree with your point--and don't stop playing D&D!
I sort of fooled folks there I guess...I said "Pantheon" hehe.  |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 02:19:14
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
You show me ONE ancient Pantheon of earth that DIDN'T meddle (or a modern one for that matter)...and I'll stop playing D&D. So all the dang whining I hear about the "gods interfering too much" is just not really a matter of concern for me.
The Deist version of God.
But seriously, I agree with your point--and don't stop playing D&D! |
| Kuje |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 01:50:34
Cough, Wooly, Shar does have a Chosen according to the Underdark sourcebook but, as far as I know, it's never been flushed out further then saying that she has one. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 01:14:55
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well she grants spells to priests and she shared the Shadow Weave.
She grants the ability to priests to tap the Weave/Shadow Weave.
As for the Shadow Weave, that isn't something that cost her any power apparently...it is just a manifestation of her will I guess.
Man...it sure is hard to peg down what the folks at WotC/TSR are thinking...I mean...how in the heck do they think they can figure it all out to satisfy the thousands of minds that are working against them! LOL
No matter what they do, there is no way for them to figure out every angle that we the players are going to come up with... |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 01:11:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I disagree, Shar will make whatever investment she has to on the long term plan that it will result in the destruction of everything. She lacks the kind of grasping greed that dominates the consciousness of Bane and Cyric (both whom have Chosen). I confess, it's unlikely she'd choose someone JUST powerful like Telamont.
She'd need someone either insane or incredibly nihilistic.
Even to advance her goals, I don't see Shar willingly sharing her power. We don't have much evidence of her doing that before...
Nope...and the Karsestone would have been a good example.
Maybe THAT is how she and Cyric kill Mystra...some fell artifact constructed out of the "God" that killed her before? |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 01:10:51
Well she grants spells to priests and she shared the Shadow Weave.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 01:08:43
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I disagree, Shar will make whatever investment she has to on the long term plan that it will result in the destruction of everything. She lacks the kind of grasping greed that dominates the consciousness of Bane and Cyric (both whom have Chosen). I confess, it's unlikely she'd choose someone JUST powerful like Telamont.
She'd need someone either insane or incredibly nihilistic.
Even to advance her goals, I don't see Shar willingly sharing her power. We don't have much evidence of her doing that before... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 00:51:05
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I thought that Malak was Cyric's Chosen as well. Well, his title is Seraph of Lies, but he seems to perform the same duties that a Chosen does for other deities. I wouldn't mind another book about him (or with him in it). He is quite funny (in a twisted sort of way).
He is Cyric's Chosen, according to the 3/3.5e material.
And note also that the other Seraph from 2e, who was serving Umberlee, has now also been listed as the Chosen of Umberlee.
There are lots of different ways a god can invest a mortal follower with power, which we could arbitrarily divide into, from lesser to greater:
- 1. priests;
- 2. things like Mystra's spellstaves;
- 3. the Chosen of Bane or Deneir, Seraph of Lies, or the Magister;
- 4. Mystra's Chosen, which are a unique case.
It's a continuum, and has no universal nomenclature. For instance, members of tier 3 could be called chosen, proxies, seraphs, etc. A 'Chosen' might have no granted powers, those of tier 2 or 3, or be one of Mystra's Chosen.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 00:47:23
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
4. Shar, briefly, had Halastar
She did "have" him briefly, but was it officially stated that he was a Chosen?
Not that I saw or read anywhere. Wonder's where that info came from.
Indeed.
And Mystra removed Shar's influence from Halaster. As it was, Shar basically ensured his insanity because she filled him with the use of the Shadow Weave, among other things, which drove him insane. We knew Halaster could slip back into his periods of insanity every now and then... but it was nothing compared to what he had experienced before the purging of the influence from Shar.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 00:22:08
My own take on Shar taking a Chosen would simply be to reveal to them great secrets that would enable them to take what power they may.
That is how my DM portrayed her when I was playing my own character (Dalor Darden) who eventually became the "Chosen" of Shar only because he became a Shade (long ago in a galaxy far, far away before the coming of the city of Shade...) and followed her because he saw in her a like minded individual. I never really considered that Shar would indeed take a Chosen because in my thought process she thinks thus:
Once she can take control of everything, she can end everything...it would be counter-productive for her to give away part of the power she had gained simply because she wanted a tool to fight Mystra's Chosen...evil wizards are a dime a dozen and easily brought to her service without the need of her actually giving anything at all!
That was my take...and why Dalor Nal'Raesik Darden became the "Darkflame" in her service. Not because he was given anything by her; but because he was a powerful shade wizard willing to do things in her service...in return for knowledge alone.
Since then, and recently actually, I've been doing a lot of thinking about Shar.
She seems to me a truly alien mind when she deals with Toril. While on the one hand she wants all to fall into darkness and simply slumber in endless blackness; she must deal with the fact that her very ability to achieve that goal depends wholly on her ability to have and sustain a following among the very beings she wants to destroy (by default). She is torn by her desire to end all things...but somehow still survive! The end result she desires is most likely something that can't be obtained because of the sheer number of Greater Powers she would have to destroy for this to happen...her only hope then is to destroy the world itself. So I've been persuaded that actually Shar is a much more viable arch-nemesis to creation than I held her to be to start with. The only drawback to her is still her desire to simply work in cloistered and secretive cells without any sort of cohesion toward the end goal she professes to desire (the end).
Sorry if this isn't the place for all this...let me get back on track:
People say the God's meddle too much in the Forgotten Realms, well...of course they do! That's like saying Zeus DIDN'T meddle in Greece, or Odin didn't skulk around all the time, or Marduk didn't make the world out of the remains of Tiamat, or the Pharaoh wasn't a manifestation of their patron god, or...well, you get the picture.
You show me ONE ancient Pantheon of earth that DIDN'T meddle (or a modern one for that matter)...and I'll stop playing D&D. So all the dang whining I hear about the "gods interfering too much" is just not really a matter of concern for me.
|
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 22:48:04
I disagree, Shar will make whatever investment she has to on the long term plan that it will result in the destruction of everything. She lacks the kind of grasping greed that dominates the consciousness of Bane and Cyric (both whom have Chosen). I confess, it's unlikely she'd choose someone JUST powerful like Telamont.
She'd need someone either insane or incredibly nihilistic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 22:31:36
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
While true, that's a very silly system from a metaverse perspective. Shar should only invest her power in people capable of opposing the Chosen of Mystra whom will almost certainly slay them when they have the chance.
And honestly, considering Shar's nature, I don't see her as the type to create a Chosen. Creating a Mystra-like Chosen involves giving up a bit of divine power, and I can't see Shar doing that. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 21:56:10
While true, that's a very silly system from a metaverse perspective. Shar should only invest her power in people capable of opposing the Chosen of Mystra whom will almost certainly slay them when they have the chance.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 20:05:54
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I stand corrected but he was certainly powerful enough for it.
Well, being a Chosen doesn't really have to do with being powerful, it just means a god chose you.
Not to get too far off topic... |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 18:57:37
I stand corrected but he was certainly powerful enough for it.
I also think that Malak is a great Chosen of Cyric.
Because he really is the perfect example of what a Lies, Intrigue, and so on Chosen should be like.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 18:51:15
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
4. Shar, briefly, had Halastar
She did "have" him briefly, but was it officially stated that he was a Chosen?
I don't think it was ever even implied that he was a Chosen of Shar. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 18:50:28
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I thought that Malak was Cyric's Chosen as well. Well, his title is Seraph of Lies, but he seems to perform the same duties that a Chosen does for other deities. I wouldn't mind another book about him (or with him in it). He is quite funny (in a twisted sort of way).
He is Cyric's Chosen, according to the 3/3.5e material. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 18:49:45
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
4. Shar, briefly, had Halastar
She did "have" him briefly, but was it officially stated that he was a Chosen?
Not that I saw or read anywhere. Wonder's where that info came from. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 18:48:07
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
4. Shar, briefly, had Halastar
She did "have" him briefly, but was it officially stated that he was a Chosen? |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 18:43:22
I thought that Malak was Cyric's Chosen as well. Well, his title is Seraph of Lies, but he seems to perform the same duties that a Chosen does for other deities. I wouldn't mind another book about him (or with him in it). He is quite funny (in a twisted sort of way). |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 18:34:08
yes, plus other gods are getting Chosen now.
1. Umberlee has the Kraken
2. Mask has 4 Chosen
3. Bane has Fzoul
4. Shar, briefly, had Halastar
etc etc.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 18:06:24
Also, Mystra has to have Chosen. Ed Greenwood has explained their purpose numerous times. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 16:50:22
Is it really meddling when her actions, and those of her agents, directly support not only her dogma, but her portfolio? |
