| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jerrod |
Posted - 21 Apr 2012 : 10:11:11
I'm curious about the age before ages. If the war was law against chaos...which side did correlon larethian or the seelie court fight for? Did they side wig the queen of chaos before the eladrin raid of the abyss? |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 04:52:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Is this whole war between Chaos and Law referenced anywhere else, other than in descriptions of the Rod of Seven Parts?
Bits of that period are detailed in various places, including FC:I, FC:II, various spots in Dragon magazine, and in one of the late print Dungeon AP's which includes a bit on the Wind Dukes (who have remarkably little detail in print in any edition).
There's not much detail on the war itself in 2e outside of the Rod of Seven Parts box. Admittedly a lot of the Blood War information in 2e comes from in-game sources with their own biases and lack of concern outside of those areas, and much of the Law/Chaos war was in 3e sort of back-integrated into the much more detailed history of the Blood War and the lower planes from Planescape (the Paizo guys did a lot of it to very good effect). The Blood War itself is somewhat recast as the modern day continuation of the original Law/Chaos war, or simply its latest iteration.
For instance, Asmodeus's fall from LN to LE was largely a side effect of his role in fighting against the Abyss, and the fall of the obyriths (a 3e invention) to the tanar'ri happened during the war's twilight. The primarily yugoloth histories from 2e were also integrated into some of the material as well (placing the baernaloths as having created the obyriths in the first place for instance). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 03:59:42
Is this whole war between Chaos and Law referenced anywhere else, other than in descriptions of the Rod of Seven Parts? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 23:32:09
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Karsus - I know all of that, but it had nothing to do with the point I was making. Saying the Elves came before the fey makes no sense, and the Creator-races existed before the Sundering of the world into two. There is no evidence of elves living before that time.
-Who said that?
-You said: The Fey (leShay) were one of the Creator Races. The earned this moniker because, along with the other creator races- or the Creatori, as you call them- they were presumably created (as opposed to evolved) by "The Gods".
-I said: The Creator Races are called Creator Races because they are among the earliest societies to have existed on the planet, and that they are the central progenitors of a large number of creatures that exist in the annals of history, either through evolution, magical creation, opening gates to allow immigration into Realmspace, and other things, not because of the notion that they were the first things created by (or evolved) "The Gods", a notion that has no support in written lore.
-In short, they are the Creator Races because they were the ones doing the populating of Abeir-Toril (hence the 'creation') in the early days of the planet's history, not because they were the first things being created. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 06:01:00
Is this Dawn Age revisionism still compatible with the old 2E notion that elven colonists arrived in Realmspace via spelljammers? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 05:13:06
Compared to all the human ones? yes, they are.
I believe Moradin is far older then the rest of his pantheon (and the Seldarine), but thats just my take.
@Karsus - I know all of that, but it had nothing to do with the point I was making. Saying the Elves came before the fey makes no sense, and the Creator-races existed before the Sundering of the world into two. There is no evidence of elves living before that time. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 01:54:53
I Hadn't considered that the seldarine might not have existed during that time because moradin had a hand in making the rod of seven parts. I assumed that corellon was as old as moradin by virtue of their ancient alliance,and it is said that the seldarine were one of the most ancient pantheons. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 19:07:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Fey were a 'Creator Race' - that is canon. That means they were among the (presumably) original five races created by "The Gods" (which probably weren't even deities - maybe primordials or something else). The Creatori (my name for them) may have evolved naturally, but I doubt it - this is a fantasy setting, after all.
-No, it means that they were among the earliest 'civilized' societies that we know of in Abeir-Toril's history and that they are the progenitors of a large number of creatures that exist (or existed) in the annals of world history, either through evolution (the Batrachi mutating into Slaadi), magical creation (Sarrukh creating most serpentfolk), opening portals to Realmspace (Fey bringing all sorts of Sylvan creatures and Elves from the Plane of Faerie to Abeir-Toril), and so on. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 18:41:25
I personally feel the Seldarine 'arose' from the ranks of the Eladrin, who were themselves the 'mortal children' of the Fey (who were spiritual beings). This is my own belief (homebrew) on the matter.
The Fey were a 'Creator Race' - that is canon. That means they were among the (presumably) original five races created by "The Gods" (which probably weren't even deities - maybe primordials or something else). The Creatori (my name for them) may have evolved naturally, but I doubt it - this is a fantasy setting, after all.
Regardless, the Fey had to have come before the Eldarin/Elves, and therefor before the Seldarine Pantheon, which means at the time of the 'god wars' (the War of Light & Darkness really just being one battle in an on-going conflict) there were no Elf-gods, because their were no elves (yet).
Since your question is merely hypothetical, and if I ignore everything I just wrote, I still don't think the sides would have been recognizable today - it was a VERY different universe back then. The fall of celestials/creation of the devils may have been an outcome of those wars, so even the uber-groups we normally associate with the planes were completely different or non-existant. I believe nearly every 'modern' planer group/race came out of those antideluvian conflicts - thats when the first pantheons began to form, and many beings probably switched sides several times before it was over. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 16:18:16
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
I'm curious about the age before ages. If the war was law against chaos...which side did correlon larethian or the seelie court fight for? Did they side wig the queen of chaos before the eladrin raid of the abyss?
Keep in mind a lot of that period happened before gods existed. And there's also the fact that we can't fully assume that the Seldarine would have even been part of the first group of gods to subsequently arise as the planes evolved. 4e planar lore especially with planar prehistory however went a completely different route, contradicting prior lore, being essentially a different continuity of its own. How much of that core 4e material planar history is valid for FR is a matter of debate I suppose, and I don't know if anything specific to FR has addressed the point.
But in any event, reconcile 1e/2e/3e with 4e as you see fit, or not as all as you see fit, whichever suits you best. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 02:51:51
-Not fully sure about what you're asking, but the Seldarine and the Seelie Court are all highly chaotic, so if a conflict between law and chaos existed in the upper realms, like it does/did in the lower planes with the Blood War, they'd be on the side of chaos, almost to a T. That's not to say they revel in chaos like, say, Lolth does, but they're generally flighty and dislike being tied down to set-in-stone rules and such. |
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