Candlekeep Forum

Candlekeep Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Forgotten Realms Journals

General Forgotten Realms Chat

Magic Theory 101

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:

UserName:

Password:

Format Mode:

Format:

Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON

Smilies

[quote][i]Originally posted by sleyvas[/i]
[br]I wrote this more than ten years ago, but some of the core concepts remain the same.  It was also written with 2nd edition rules in mind, and therefore some things which worked back then would work differently now.  For instance, vocalize as a spell no longer exists.  Sound bubble would be replaced by various mental linking spells.  Acid damage is much easier to resist than in 2nd edition (for instance, for use with spells such as acid rain and wall of force together).  Now, some of the things that would be hard to resist would be spells that affect a specific alignment, for which there are a few that work as damage over time effects.  Certain effects such as sphere of wonder and spell invulnerability were not transferred into 3E, and the vast number of contingent effect spells in previous editions have been cut down by the ability to do them via feats (and thus rightly cut down people's bags of tricks).  Still, many of these general ideas work in most campaigns.

�Alavairthae, fellow students of the art.� Began the bounty hunter mage, Sleyvas, as he ascended to the podium, his longswords clanking on his hips.   Stopping, he gave a brief bow and prayer to the three coffins set at the top of the stairs.  He wore a red and black tunic with the Thayan standard embroidered on its sleeve.  Although his fellow red wizards were shocked at his audacity in appearing before a gathering in anything besides ceremonial robes, they also had to admit that it was the closest they were going to get out of him.  As the furor died down, Sleyvas began his address, �I have gathered here today to discuss a matter of great personal interest to me, in the hopes that we shall not have to attend more sad occasions such as this in the future.  It has long been the Thayan mindset to develop better and stronger means of warfare, but as we can see from the meaningless deaths of these students, sometimes the best offense is to defend oneself well.  With that, I would like to speak on the major styles of defense in the art.�

Before I say anything, at first chance, all of you should look into acquiring the stoneskin spell as well as spells such as invisible mail.

CAN�T FIND ME, CAN�T KILL ME:  This style is perhaps one that gives the best protection to the caster, though it has the drawback of if broken through all its efforts become for naught.   At its simplest, this would involve the spell improved invisibility.  However, if one is to guard against divinations, then the spells non-detection and misdirection should come into play.  Luckily, these two spells are extremely long-lived.  However, this can be taken further, as certain creatures are known to have extremely sensitive senses of hearing and/or smell.  In the case of sound, the mage spell, vocalize is extremely useful, as is the spell sound bubble.  However, each has their drawbacks:  Vocalize allows one to act with impunity even within a �silenced� area, whereas sound bubble allows one to talk to nearby allies without worry of being overheard.  As far as smell, one can�t beat the little known spell, Drawmij�s scent mask.  Finally, there are the possibilities of encounters with undead, and while it is little known, many of these beings can actually sense the life force of an opponent.  In fact, the Faerunian spell, Spectral Guard is even known to be able to incorporate this ability.  As a result, many may wish to begin their own researches into a variation of the spell detect life.  If one has the time, it is also worthwhile to employ magics such as blink to further stupefy their opponents.
     There is one dangerous spell to those who employ these magics: True Sight.  At this time, I have only discovered a single counter to this spell, besides of course remaining outside its range.  This would be spell invulnerability, and it makes the spell simply �not exist� when it comes to the caster.  Of course, this also prevents the caster from employing said spell himself.  Also, for those who would have access to such high level magics, it proves very nice to have a magical item to confer normal invisibility and keep the improved invisibility as a Persistent effect (see Persistence in Spells & Magic).
     Still, those who employ this strategy often lose its advantages by employing assault spells totally unmeant for it.  It is imperative that one employ magics which DO NOT give hints as to where the caster is.  No lightning bolts, no magic missiles, no melf�s acid arrows, and try to stay away from short range spells (cloud spells in particular are noted as being short range).  Perhaps the best spells to use with this sort of magic are those which summon aid, create weapons of force, or attack spells which simply appear in the air (ice storms, snowball swarms, etc....).  One must also remember not to cast protective spells which create their own magic aura, as the invisibility will not cover it (minor globes of invulnerability, spelltrap, seven eyes, fire shield, etc....).

WHICH ONE IS ME:  Similar to the above, this relies on the fact that one�s opponent don�t know exactly where you are.  However, this relies on presenting one�s opponents with multiple things which look like the caster.  This can be achieved with various illusion spells (mirror image, programmed illusions) as well as such spells as blink and improved blink.  One spell in particular is well suited to this form of assault, Zala�s Deception (see Zala�s book of Barriers in Dragon #221).  Also, one might employ simulacrums or even the spell, body outside body, to further confuse one�s opponent.  The fatal drawback to this tactic is of course area effect magics.  It is interesting to note that one might use the mislead spell to combine these tactics with the aforementioned style of spell dueling, though you must remember the short range of said spell.

COME TO THE DARK SIDE:  Contrary to belief, this style does not involve consigning one�s soul to the Tanar�ri.  This style is also closely related to the �Can�t find me, can�t kill me� style mentioned above.  It involves using spells to create darkness and hiding within it and using divination magics to see through it and assaulting your opponents.  Given the fact that mages cannot center area effects in an area that they can�t see into, this means that there is little chance of them harming the mage hiding in the dark.  There are several spells inclined towards these tactics:  blacklight, ultravision (a particularly long-lived and useful spell), true sight, and of course the spell darkness 15� radius.  When used with spells such as Globe of invulnerability, it will prevent the effects of light spells and most dispels from taking down the defense.  However, this style is best employed �as is� only against lower level parties, and is easily raised.  Against higher level opponents, this style is best if employed in combination with the ideas of other styles.   For instance, some might use this in comination with the �can�t find me, can�t kill me� style to misdirect opponent spells towards the area of darkness.  It can also be used with the �which one is me� tactics with use of a programmed illusion (for instance, creating multiple illusions of darkness globes, from which lightning bolts seem to bounce as if the caster were blinking from globe to globe).  Or, it can be used with the �delaying tactics� or �they can�t reach me� styles mentioned below.

THE WARRIOR�S WAY:  This style is intended for use against powerful warriors and is typically only affective in the short term, as they quickly learn to avoid the caster (effectively letting him do whatever he wants).  It is also a recommended style for only those with better skills in the art of melee.  Central to this style are the various spells which prevent physical assault from affecting the caster (stoneskin (note the duration on this), ironguard, prot/normal missiles, swordshun, invulnerability to normal or magical weapons, etc...).   Secondly, the caster should raise some spell(s) which hurts anyone who directly melees the caster (rainbow shield (a beauty for use with this spell), fireshield, damage mirror, etc.....).  He should also have prepared himself and his weapons with magics to enhance their damage (a person under the effects of a strength and/or cat�s grace spell , fighting with two-weapon style and having two swords with, say, charge (note duration) spells on each is very appropriate.).  This is a very deadly defense and quick to remove one�s non-spellcasting opponents, while allowing the caster to focus his own assaults against enemy spellcasters himself.

THEY CAN�T REACH ME:  Against a low-level party, this is perhaps some of the greatest tactics, though it is sometimes hard to raise on the fly, so an invisibility spell might be the precursor to its inception and the caster should, naturally have a stoneskin in effect.   This revolves around the use of a minor globe (or normal globe) of invulnerability along with a fly or levitate spell and a protection/ normal missiles.  Low-level opponents typically won�t be able to reach the caster, and those few who are quickly become the focus of the caster�s magic.  The major drawback to this tactic is its immobility.  Of course, given the tenaciousness of most low-lvl opponents, at least the vast majority of the party can be destroyed before escaping.  However, the caster could cut off escape with the various wall spells.

DELAYING TACTICS:  This is not a defensive style per se by itself.  It�s simply a concept for raising defenses.  Essential to this style is the use of magics such as invisibility or rope tricks.  This is especially useful with the �Come to the Dark Side tactics� as well as programmed illusions mentioned above, as spellcasters using true sight will not be able to use detect magic at the same time to detect the extradimensional space of the rope trick where the caster is casting more spells.

STAND & FIGHT YOU FOOL:  This is a good quick defense for higher lvl casters who come unexpectedly under assault.  However, this does not provide more than a few rounds of safety.  Typically this style involves the use of at least one or two of the four following faerunian spells (typically contained in a contingency and/or chain contingency):  spell engine, seven eyes, spelltrap, Elminster�s effulgent epuration.

UNDEATH CAN BE A LIFESAVER:  This style centers around those who favor necromantic magics (even those who aren�t necromancers) and is only for higher level casters.  It involves using the spell Imbue undead with spell ability to imbue undead servants with protective spells to cast on the caster.  Much like the �Delaying Tactics� above, this style is best used in combination with another style of defense (or as a means to raise a very quick assault, or both).

A MAGNETIC PERSONALITY:  This is more of a defensive style to be used on city assaults by groups of mages.  I employed it of recent in the capture of Calaunt, and can assert that it works quite well.  It revolves around high level magics, however, and thus is more of interest to my colleagues.   It�s central point is the creation of various projectiles out of glass (cast pieces of arrow heads, slingstones, bullets, etc... which can be broken off like model pieces from a tree) , then altering them using the spell glasssteel.  During the assault of the enemy fortress, the mage should be prepared with tactics similiar to the aforementioned �stand & fight you fool� and spells such as stoneskin, ironguard, and protection from normal missiles.  Once within range, the caster should release a pair of Superior magnetism spells on two large objects within 60 feet of one another.  This will give a stretch of wall about 180 ft long which is safe to assault by lightly armored missile wielders using the aforementioned glassteeled projectiles.  This wall can be scaled and the missile wielders can slowly move along it wiping out surrounding foes with impunity.  Naturally, spellcasters and warriors wielding glassteeled swords should accompany them to take on opponent spellcasters.

ANTI-MAGIC IS MY FRIEND:  This style is a favorite of the song mage, Alefian Thelanthra, and the more I see it in use, the more impressed I am.  This style revolves around making oneself immune to the affects of one�s own anti-magic shell or the rare spell sphere of wonder (through spells such as spell invulnerability and counterspell immunity).  However, in doing so, the anti-magic does not cover the area in which the caster exists, and therefore, he can be targeted specifically by spells.  However, the caster can also obey such rules, using them to bring into effect personal spells which do not exist outside his body (spell turning, improved invisibility, fly, stoneskins, etc....), thus applying this style with the various other styles.  As yet, the only drawbacks I�ve found to this style is its inability to stop targeted magic in and of itself (and the spell turning spell does not last near long enough), and the ability of opponents hiding within one�s anti-magic shell and physically assaulting the caster until his wardings drop.

[/quote]

Check here to include your profile signature.
Check here to subscribe to this topic.

T O P I C R E V I E W
Wandering_mage	Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 21:50:54 Welcome class! Today I would like to open a forum on the tactical and strategic use of magic in the Realms. Examples of favorite magic combat stunts and tricks from novels are welcome as are personal accounts of magic use. Dm's don't hold back please add your info. Now if any one has any interesting FR lore based magical attacks/tricks that would be of interest please do share. I am especially interested in favorite combat techniques used by Elven mages, the Chosen, Red Wizards, Zhents, Shadovar, regionally based human mages, and lastly Dwarven mages. The goal is to share experiences read or used to inspire creativity in FR campaign-based gamers playing style. And more importantly...mine. Please chat it up!
30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Alystra Illianniis	Posted - 25 Jun 2011 : 02:37:11 I have quite a few third-party books myself, and I like some of them as much if not more than the WotC ones.
The Sage	Posted - 25 Jun 2011 : 01:53:05 quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert quote: Originally posted by Lord Karsus -Not any slight against WotC designers, or any other company that does D&D-ish things, but I think actual, dedicated, fan-made products always have more detail than their official counterparts. I've seen some really good third party material... The Monsternomicon volumes, for the 3.5 version of Iron Kingdoms, are in my opinion some of the best monster books we've had since 2E. Some of the Pathfinder monster stuff is really awesome, too, particularly the Revisited line. The two Monsternomicon volumes, as I see it, remain some of the best monster books in the entire history of role-playing games.
Lord Karsus	Posted - 24 Jun 2011 : 18:16:45 quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I've seen some really good third party material... The Monsternomicon volumes, for the 3.5 version of Iron Kingdoms, are in my opinion some of the best monster books we've had since 2E. Some of the Pathfinder monster stuff is really awesome, too, particularly the Revisited line. I'm not contesting the quality of fan material; I'm just saying that there was some really good stuff out there, and some of it is better than fan-made stuff. -Personally, I think a lot of third-party material is fan stuff, just fan stuff with a higher budget!
Wooly Rupert	Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 18:18:55 quote: Originally posted by Lord Karsus -Not any slight against WotC designers, or any other company that does D&D-ish things, but I think actual, dedicated, fan-made products always have more detail than their official counterparts. I've seen some really good third party material... The Monsternomicon volumes, for the 3.5 version of Iron Kingdoms, are in my opinion some of the best monster books we've had since 2E. Some of the Pathfinder monster stuff is really awesome, too, particularly the Revisited line. I'm not contesting the quality of fan material; I'm just saying that there was some really good stuff out there, and some of it is better than fan-made stuff.
Lord Karsus	Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 17:57:55 -Not any slight against WotC designers, or any other company that does D&D-ish things, but I think actual, dedicated, fan-made products always have more detail than their official counterparts.
althen artren	Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 02:26:51 Dicefreaks has some neat stuff. I printed out their versions of ghost, vampire, death knight templates due to the level of thought put into them.
Lord Karsus	Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 17:49:08 -Yes, I think that's it!
Gray Richardson	Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 00:49:47 Was it Dicefreaks you were thinking of? http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/index.php
Lord Karsus	Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 05:38:11 -Does anybody have any recollection of "overdeity rules/stats" that a website made, about three years ago, at the very earliest? It's not a website I remember the name of, nor was one that is relatively mainstream (ie, the WotC boards, or Paizo, or setting-specific main fansites)...Ring a bell for anyone? Something with 'freaks', like 'D&D freaks' or something?
Gray Richardson	Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 05:23:45 Actually, there are some clues to overdivine status in the Deities & Demigods book and also the Faiths & Pantheons book. We know that they are essentially "epic" gods with divine rank of 21+. We know that they are beyond the ken of mortals. They do not require worshipers, they do not grant spells, they do not answer queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars. (see Faiths & Pantheons p. 6) While there are no official rules for overdeities, we could extrapolate that when a god exceeds divine rank 20, he ascends to overgod status and is subject to a different set of rules. These rules may be analogous to the way in which the epic rules compare to the rules for character classes below level 21. You could surmise that there are overdivine feats and salient overdivine abilities. One such ability we could reasonably construe to be "create crystal sphere" or "create universe." Overgods may similarly have portfolios. And such overdivine portfolios might include being the overgod of a specific crystal sphere. I don't think that necessarily implies that the overgod assigned to the crystal sphere always created the sphere, but it follows that it might often be the case. I don't think that we can assume that all crystal spheres have overgods, or that all overgods create crystal spheres. We only know of two spheres for sure that have them. The other crystal spheres may or may not have been created by overgods. If so the overgods that created them may still be watching over them in secret or may have long since abandonned them. New overgods may have taken over guardianship of a sphere. I don't think we can say for sure either way. Another possibility is that in order to ascend to overdivine status, a god must succeed at some kind of epic, overdivine quest, feat or trial. Like a PhD thesis or an Eagle Scout project. This would be analogous to the quest that a mortal must undergo in order to become a god. Faiths & Avatars p.4 tells us that "a mortal attempts to become a deity through the accumulation of power, the use of arcane rituals, the use of artifacts, the sponsorship of an already-established power, or some combination of these." It goes on to say in game terms that, after achieving sufficient epic statistics, a character must spend a great deal of time researching methods to attain divinity, come up with a plan for doing so, and confront great peril in order to execute that plan. The plan must always involve at least two of these three things: the performance of a specially researched ceremony or spell of elaborate complexity, great cost, and great personal danger; the use of an artifact; or the sponsorship of a deity. By analogy we can postulate that a god can ascend to overdivine status by reaching divine rank 20 (and then some) and then perform some kind of epic ritual, quest or some such to complete his ascension. Obviously, the first thing that comes to mind is that the creation of a crystal sphere may be exactly the type of ritual needed to complete such a hyperapotheosis. I doubt that this is the only method. But it may be a common one. Similarly, the destruction of a crystal sphere could be another method. We know of one crystal sphere that has been shattered. It is possible that a god chose to break that sphere to complete his over-ascension. There may be other suitable feats, quests and rituals. One way that seems to work is to be the creator of a race or head of a racial pantheon. Gods like Gruumsh, Corellon, Moradin, and Annam may be well on their way to ascending. A critical part of this ascention may require spreading your race to other worlds and achieving a certain critical mass of worship. Say, perhaps, 5 billion, 100 billion or a trillian beings. It occurs to me that Annam, has retreated from the world. Many think this is because he is depressed and in mourning for his betrayal by Othea. But I suspect it is because he has secretly begun his ascension ritual or is researching the process and so has cloistered himself away. The god that created humans is not evident in the universe. Presumably that god has long ago ascended and all memory of him (or her) seems to be lost. Some have speculated that this ascension was quite recent and that god may even have been Ao. Another candidate for overdivine status is the World Serpent. It seems likely that he ascended around 30,000 years ago or so. He's no longer around. Although, it is likely that his former "body" has metamorphosized into the World Serpent Inn and acts now as a transitive plane that links distant planes and universes together. Overgods are probably so elevated above humans and gods that they are in a higher realm of reality. They probably see the universe through the eyes of a 4th dimensional, 5th dimensional, or nth higher dimensional perspective. They are as far beyond us as we are to ants or bacteria. Their concerns are so far beyond mortal concerns, that they can't be bothered to keep up with the material plane. Imagine an ant whose responsibility it is to tend the fungus gardens of an anthill or shepherd the milk-giving avids. Compare that to a tax attorney trying to navigate a multinational corporate merger. The ant may be able to perceive that a human exists, but cannot conceive of what an attorney is, what taxes are, or corporations or mergers. Similarly, it may be impossible for mortals to comprehend what overgods really are or do. But it's possible that overgods keep the multiverse going. They keep the Far Realms from impinging on the borders of our reality, or keep other universes from invading ours, or dark, incomprehensible forces from corrupting and destroying our reality. Recently elevated overgods, overgods of low overdivine rank, say DVR 21-25 (demi-overgod) may still be fond of the material world and may maintain some kind of link to it. Such as choosing to watch over a crystal sphere. Perhaps the higher the overdivine rank achieved, the more remote and distant from this reality an overgod retreats. And to use (or abuse) the ant analogy further, there are certainly humans that are entomologists who study and care for ants and anthills. Not to mention kids with ant farms. Similarly, some overgods may be concerned with the material plane as a job or as a hobby.
Lord Karsus	Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 04:45:41 quote: Originally posted by Dennis Why did they feel the need to create a being whom Ao must answer to? Isn't Ao more than enough? -Agreed, in that the concept of Ao's boss is unnecessary, and does too much to "Humanize" Ao, I think. And then, of course, it gets silly when you say, "Well, the deities have Ao as a boss. Ao has a Luminous Being as Ao's boss. That Luminous Being may have a boss. And that boss a boss..."
The Sage	Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 13:58:04 quote: Originally posted by Dennis Sage, Shouldn't there be a basis, or a less vague concept of the nature of an overgod? I mean, how can one say X and Y are overgods if he has not a mote of idea what the concept of an overgod means? By naming something, (while it doesn't necessarily mean you know everything about that something) you have a more or less clear idea what that something is---its nature and its relevance to you and others. I suppose this comes back to my belief on whether we, as PCs, should be aware that creator and/or overgods even exist in-game. As I noted earlier, with the revelation of Ao after the Time of Troubles among the mortal Realms populace, the creator god wasn't even a known quantity in the divine dynamic of Realmspace. Mayhap those with an intimate connection to a divine power, like the Chosen, I suppose, were aware of "something" beyond the pantheon of standard deities. But that's where I'd leave knowledge of a creator god among the mortal populace of the Realms. ... As an aside, I would think that if a campaign demanded the acknowledgement of a Realms creator god, like Ao, then the establishment of a vague concept for such an entity would probably be required. But I'd imagine that would be something only for individual DMs to determine.
Dennis	Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 05:21:19 Sage, Shouldn't there be a basis, or a less vague concept of the nature of an overgod? I mean, how can one say X and Y are overgods if he has not a mote of idea what the concept of an overgod means? By naming something, (while it doesn't necessarily mean you know everything about that something) you have a more or less clear idea what that something is---its nature and its relevance to you and others.
Wooly Rupert	Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 04:51:01 quote: Originally posted by The Sage quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert quote: Originally posted by The Sage quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I don't see Ptah as an overdeity. He's got specific spheres of influence, and unlike most other deities, he's worshipped almost everywhere by spelljamming types. He might be something more than just a regular deity, but I don't think he's gotten to overdeity status. I think Gray's drawing from Tom Costa's brilliant write-up of Ptah. But I look at it from a somewhat different way, which re-establishes the deity as an ancient power who "stepped down" from overgod/greater status long ago to concentrate on more terrestrial concerns. Ptah, as Costa notes, was responsible for the creation of a/the Prime Material Plane and a/the multiverse from primordial Ethereal and Elemental building blocks. I don't know that I'm familiar with that write-up... Where might I find it? Your memory must be playing tricks on you:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4768 wink Hey, I've stuffed a lot more useless knowledge -- and a few tidbits of useful stuff -- into me brain since then!
The Sage	Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 03:45:28 quote: Originally posted by Dennis The Lady of Pain is an overgod? What requirements does an overgod have to meet, anyway? Isn't s/he supposed to create gods and worlds? I personally think this is where we start hitting a wall in terms of describing the nature and/or scope of creator/overgod types. And it's also, partly, at least as I see it, why Ao can be a nuisance-concept if overused in either home games or official material. I see the creator/overgod-type as the "great unknown." Delving into requirements for overgod status, and defining what aspects of his/her/it's power... I think, works against the very notion of a creator god. When you define something within the bounds of a specific set of rules or paradigms -- in this case, the bounds of Prime Material reality -- you limit the scope of that particular definition. Creator gods/overgods should, or in my conception of the term, be undefined. I mean, usually, most mortals have only the faintest conception of how a standard power operates. To bring the conception of a creator god into the same sphere of comprehension, devalues both the creator god, and his/her/it's remarkable creation. Consider, also, that until the Time of Troubles, the majority of mortals [and I've speculated in the past, also, that some lesser powers themselves] had no knowledge of the existence of Ao or even Ao's superiors. That, in my mind, is the extent of what we should know about creator gods.
The Sage	Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 03:35:25 quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert quote: Originally posted by The Sage quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I don't see Ptah as an overdeity. He's got specific spheres of influence, and unlike most other deities, he's worshipped almost everywhere by spelljamming types. He might be something more than just a regular deity, but I don't think he's gotten to overdeity status. I think Gray's drawing from Tom Costa's brilliant write-up of Ptah. But I look at it from a somewhat different way, which re-establishes the deity as an ancient power who "stepped down" from overgod/greater status long ago to concentrate on more terrestrial concerns. Ptah, as Costa notes, was responsible for the creation of a/the Prime Material Plane and a/the multiverse from primordial Ethereal and Elemental building blocks. I don't know that I'm familiar with that write-up... Where might I find it? Your memory must be playing tricks on you:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4768 wink
Dennis	Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 03:28:41 The Lady of Pain is an overgod? What requirements does an overgod have to meet, anyway? Isn't s/he supposed to create gods and worlds?
Wooly Rupert	Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 02:58:55 quote: Originally posted by The Sage quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I don't see Ptah as an overdeity. He's got specific spheres of influence, and unlike most other deities, he's worshipped almost everywhere by spelljamming types. He might be something more than just a regular deity, but I don't think he's gotten to overdeity status. I think Gray's drawing from Tom Costa's brilliant write-up of Ptah. But I look at it from a somewhat different way, which re-establishes the deity as an ancient power who "stepped down" from overgod/greater status long ago to concentrate on more terrestrial concerns. Ptah, as Costa notes, was responsible for the creation of a/the Prime Material Plane and a/the multiverse from primordial Ethereal and Elemental building blocks. I don't know that I'm familiar with that write-up... Where might I find it?
The Sage	Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 02:43:55 quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I don't see Ptah as an overdeity. He's got specific spheres of influence, and unlike most other deities, he's worshipped almost everywhere by spelljamming types. He might be something more than just a regular deity, but I don't think he's gotten to overdeity status. I think Gray's drawing from Tom Costa's brilliant write-up of Ptah. But I look at it from a somewhat different way, which re-establishes the deity as an ancient power who "stepped down" from overgod/greater status long ago to concentrate on more terrestrial concerns. Ptah, as Costa notes, was responsible for the creation of a/the Prime Material Plane and a/the multiverse from primordial Ethereal and Elemental building blocks.
The Sage	Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 02:33:51 quote: Originally posted by Gray Richardson I would argue that the Lady of Pain is an overgod. I know a lot of people would disagree, but she meets the definition. She does not require worship. She is more powerful than other gods. She is uniquely associated with Sigil, which could be a pocket universe on par with a crystal sphere. I wouldn't disagree. When I was speaking of Ao and the Highgod before, I'd actually considered placing the Lady of Pain [and, possibly, pre-fallen Aoskar] in the same category of creator "god-deity-power"-types -- simply because Sigil itself, represents a separate domain and supposedly created independently [and, perhaps, before] the creation of the entire D&D multiverse. Depending on how you perceive the origins of the City of Doors and Aoskar/the Lady of Pain, of course.
Wooly Rupert	Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 23:12:16 quote: Originally posted by Gray Richardson I would argue that the Lady of Pain is an overgod. I know a lot of people would disagree, but she meets the definition. She does not require worship. She is more powerful than other gods. She is uniquely associated with Sigil, which could be a pocket universe on par with a crystal sphere. I think it likely also that Anubis is now an overgod as well. He does also does not require worship. He is guardian of the dead gods of the Astral. I would peg him as a DVR 21 overgod (first level overdivine status). However, I can't discount that he might be something different. He might just be an ordinary deity who has been bonded to the dead gods in such a way that he substitutes their residual divine life force in lieu of worship. And I have my suspicions that Ptah is an overdeity as well. Although he would be pretty unusual as an overgod as he is more actively involved in the material world than most overdeities. I suspect his overdivine status is recent, and so he has not shed all his worshipers or his concerns and involvement with our level of reality. He has not yet grown so aloof as the other overgods. I don't see Ptah as an overdeity. He's got specific spheres of influence, and unlike most other deities, he's worshipped almost everywhere by spelljamming types. He might be something more than just a regular deity, but I don't think he's gotten to overdeity status.
Gray Richardson	Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 20:09:41 I would argue that the Lady of Pain is an overgod. I know a lot of people would disagree, but she meets the definition. She does not require worship. She is more powerful than other gods. She is uniquely associated with Sigil, which could be a pocket universe on par with a crystal sphere. I think it likely also that Anubis is now an overgod as well. He does also does not require worship. He is guardian of the dead gods of the Astral. I would peg him as a DVR 21 overgod (first level overdivine status). However, I can't discount that he might be something different. He might just be an ordinary deity who has been bonded to the dead gods in such a way that he substitutes their residual divine life force in lieu of worship. And I have my suspicions that Ptah is an overdeity as well. Although he would be pretty unusual as an overgod as he is more actively involved in the material world than most overdeities. I suspect his overdivine status is recent, and so he has not shed all his worshipers or his concerns and involvement with our level of reality. He has not yet grown so aloof as the other overgods.
Wooly Rupert	Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 15:23:41 I think it was mostly to add flavor to Ao -- by making him answer to someone else, it sheds light on his own motivations and actions.
Xar Zarath	Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 14:19:35 I think it was more for show, from the fact that if you think you're powerful there is someone or something more powerful than you, after all Ao runs realmspace as if it were his "ant farm" but he really does not take much action unless it threatens the very fabric of realmspace or just to punish some deity who did not do as he said. The inclusion of the luminous being, i think was to simply highlight the fact that he's not alone, or he didn't create realmspace out of the goodness of his heart maybe he did it under orders. And lets not forget, where there is one being of light, there could be more, heck they could be an entire pantheon with their own ovegods. After all no one ever asks Ao what he wants to do...
Dennis	Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 02:46:49 Why did they feel the need to create a being whom Ao must answer to? Isn't Ao more than enough?
The Sage	Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 02:19:13 quote: Originally posted by Lord Karsus -Such a stupid concept, the Luminous Being. I don't make use of it, but I also don't mind it. So long as it isn't properly defined what the being is.
The Sage	Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 02:18:10 quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert And we know that Ao himself answers to a higher power... I would assume that also applies to other overgods. I'm not sure that's the case with the Highgod. Though it's never been properly defined, like Ao's "Luminous Being," there are suggestions in DL-lore that possibly hint that the Highgod simply... is. And there is nothing more.
Lord Karsus	Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 16:59:32 -Such a stupid concept, the Luminous Being.
Wooly Rupert	Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 16:53:29 And we know that Ao himself answers to a higher power... I would assume that also applies to other overgods. Many people assume that the higher power Ao answers to is the Dungeon Master... But I watched the D&D cartoon a lot, back in the day, and that little guy never seemed all that godlike to me, much less such a top banana-type!
Lord Karsus	Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 16:46:05 -And, partially related, but I'll bring it up, since I've seen lots of people confuse the two: Pantheon heads, such as Corellon Larethian, or Moradin, and so on, aren't Overdeities. They're pantheon heads, and (in most cases) Greater Deities, but they're still in a tier below 'Overdeity'.

Candlekeep Forum

Snitz Forums 2000