| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 19:06:56
(Edit for clarity: This is a house rule type of thing I'm working on. It does not necessarily reflect canon.)
How big is a giant’s potion of healing?
It all started one day several months ago, when I was bored and pondered how pitiful a run of the mill 80 gallon beer barrel would look to a storm giant frat boy. This led logically to “how big would a storm giant beer barrel be?”
Today, I’m on a slightly different topic: potions.
A potion is defined (3.5e DMG, page 229) as 1 ounce. This is naive, since ounces are a measure of weight or mass, and the weight of any liquid will vary according to what’s in it, and a “dose” of a potion (or anything else) should be given in terms of volume rather than weight. However, we can still get a sense of size by looking at the volume of 1 ounce of water. All hail unit conversion websites!
Because it’s obviously ludicrous for a storm giant to benefit from a 1 ounce potion. How would he even get the cork out of a bottle that small?
An ounce is 2 tablespoons, or 6 teaspoons, or 1/8 of a cup. If you never measure anything, there are 16 ounces in a pint. That should do it for Americans. For our friends around the world, an ounce is just a hair under 30 ml. And I love the ease of talking numbers with non-Americans. 
Here’s the crux of my “argument” for figuring out how big giant-sized potions are: the volume of the potion is proportional to the mass of the drinker.
In short, the mass of a typical storm giant is roughly 92 times that of a typical human. Therefore, a storm giant’s potion of healing is about 92 fluid ounces. This is equivalent to ¾ of a gallon, 5.8 pints, or 2732 ml. It’s 2.7 liters... a whole 2-liter bottle, plus almost half of another one. Chug, chug, chug!
To a storm giant, though, that’s the equivalent of you throwing your head back and downing one ounce.
There is one potential complication I can think of, but it’s easily dealt with.
If human PCs loot a storm giant lair and find a potion... aren’t you essentially giving them 92 potions at once?
Nope.
(Edit to reflect excellent points raised below: A potion contains one spell, regardless of the volume. A larger potion can't have two spell effects, and it isn't automatically cast at a higher level. The entire potion must be consumed to receive the benefits of that spell. Splitting the potion into smaller volumes will reduce its efficacy, perhaps to zero. So a common potion of healing (5e DMG page 188) cures 2d4+2 hp... but to get that effect, I'm saying a PC should have to drink 92 ounces of a giant-brewed potion, to get the same effect as 1 ounce of a human-brewed potion. Because a storm giant can barely even see one ounce.) 
Potions do not have to be clear liquids. In fact several have texture. For just one example, the potion of animal friendship in the 5e DMG is described as muddy.
Have you ever drank (or watched someone else try to drink) a glass of water with salt or any kind of powder that isn't fully dissolved? It’s tough. It’s like there’s sand in your water. Now picture how much harder it would be if those grains were 92 times bigger.
When we blend liquids, with the intent of being able to drink them, we do our best to get rid of unwanted textures. We get it to where it’s pleasant —or at least palatable— for us... not necessarily to the point where someone a hundredth of our size would be able to easily drink it.
So even though giants are essentially just huge humans, and there’s no particular reason to think that their potions would be deadly to humans, it doesn't necessarily follow that humans can drink giants’ potions.
This issue is exaggerated for some species, like orcs, trolls, goblinoids, and so on, who probably lack a gag reflex and will swallow whatever the shaman tells them to no matter how disgusting it is... PCs of other races should be completely unable to use potions brewed by these races. They will smell bad, taste even worse, and have way too much gunk in them. PCs of those races might be savvy enough to grind up their ingredients for potions meant to be given to others, or keep them rough and unpalatable in order to prevent others from raiding their potion stash.
In contrast, a potion given to the PCs by a planetar or solar is likely to be useful... and 3.8 times the volume of a human-crafted potion, so logically worth 3 “doses.”
Connecting the volume of the potion to the mass of the creature is simplistic, but I think it’s effective. If you agree, here’s a short list of humanoid creatures and suggested relative potion volumes. I don’t have any cohesive recommendations for creatures which aren’t humanoid... they probably don’t brew potions, but the question might very well come up of how much potion of healing is needed to heal a horse or a griffon or a dragon. I would still relate it to mass, but I don’t know a good way of estimating that for most creatures. Except, say, gelatinous cubes, but who’s going to willingly feed potions to a cube while it tries to eat them?
I’m not assuming that all of these creatures have equivalent metabolisms... elven and human digestion, for one example, is probably very different. I suggest that this doesn’t have to affect the volume of the potion... it can if you want it to, but it’s equally reasonable that different ingredients be chosen to account for varying tastes and digestion, while volume remains commensurate with the mass of the creature.
Just my thoughts, YMMV of course. Thoughts and feedback are welcomed.
Human: 1.0
Athach: 32
Bugbear: 2.7
Cloud giant: 72.5
Cyclops: 25.8
Dwarf: 1.0
Eldritch giant: 82
Fire giant: 92
Fomorian: 91
Frost giant: 48.6
Rock gnome: 0.25
Goblin: 0.25
Hag: annis 2.4, green/sea/night 0.7
Halfling: 0.2
Hill giant: 27
Hobgoblin: 1.6
Mountain giant: 480
Ogre: 6.8
Ogre mage: 7.9
Orc: 1.6
Stone giant: 30.6
Storm giant: 92.3
Titan: 82
Elder titan: 2216
Troll: 6.5 foot forest troll 1.8, 9-10 foot troll 6.1
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 08:03:10
I'm not fighting the equivalence of a 1 ounce potion and a 92 ounce potion. I'm only saying that bigger creatures should have bigger potions, if you're inclined toward logic as I am.
I should probably go back and edit my original post to eliminate the whole "aren't you just giving them 92 potions" question... I wasn't asking the question; I've heard it before though, and I was trying to deflect it, but the issue that it's the same spell is a more effective counter to that question than my response involving the drinkability of a giant-brewed potion.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 02:02:36
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Its simply a delivery system for the magic, and the magic has nothing to do with the size of the person.
I agree with the first part of this, and maybe with the second. I have issues with the swallowing bit, though.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Essentially, its a use-activated magic item whose use is explicitly specified as swallowing the material.
If this were entirely true, any swallowing action would be valid. Ghosts might imitate their (or anyone else's) body, and shape themselves to have a throat, but pouring a potion down won't have any effect on them regardless of how much they swallow.
The body has to be tangible.
A stone golem can be made with a throat, and someone sufficiently crazy might even give it the ability to close its throat and swallow things. Doesn't mean a potion of flying will work on the stone golem, even if it has sentience and wants to fly.
The body has to be living.
Pouring a healing potion onto an open wound, or into the mouth of an unconscious person, should work... and in my opinion woe betide the DM who disallows it on the grounds that the person didn't swallow it.
I don't buy the idea that swallowing is a viable triggering mechanism for spell effects. It doesn't work, by itself.
Allowing potions to work on living things, and not on constructs, means there's a biological function involved. Potions need some kind of absorption/catalyzing/whatever.
Ok, I'll agree, you are correct here. It is more than swallowing, but the gist of what I was getting at wasn't how its triggered, its that the magic isn't in any way related to the volume of material involved. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 01:01:12
Yarr. I agree, Ayrik. At least... I think we're in agreement? I'm comfortable with my later thought that each individual who brews a potion imbues a quantity of liquid/whatever which is conveniently small for them. Same spell effect, but a different quantity of material depending on the size of the brewer. What I was trying to get at originally is pointing out that PCs may not always find looted potions useful, and support DMs who want to introduce some more flavor/variety into the dispensing of loot.
Drowning in a potion of water breathing would be especially ironic, wouldn't it? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 00:53:05
On a related tangent:
In old AD&D, the humble 1st level enlarge spell description states that the enlarged target's equipment and magical items are also enlarged. It specifically states that an enlarged potion still functions normally; while it becomes a greater volume of liquid, it must still be consumed in its entirety for its magic to take effect. I suppose it becomes "magically diluted", fair enough.
It might be useful to cast enlarge or reduce (its reverse) on magical potions to alter the amount for easier consumption. Potion doses could perhaps be concentrated into teeny, tiny chocolate-coated lozenges. Or they might be expanded into massive barrels one could swim (or drown) inside. Just sayin'. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 00:52:19
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Its simply a delivery system for the magic, and the magic has nothing to do with the size of the person.
I agree with the first part of this, and maybe with the second. I have issues with the swallowing bit, though.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Essentially, its a use-activated magic item whose use is explicitly specified as swallowing the material.
If this were entirely true, any swallowing action would be valid. Ghosts might imitate their (or anyone else's) body, and shape themselves to have a throat, but pouring a potion down won't have any effect on them regardless of how much they swallow.
The body has to be tangible.
A stone golem can be made with a throat, and someone sufficiently crazy might even give it the ability to close its throat and swallow things. Doesn't mean a potion of flying will work on the stone golem, even if it has sentience and wants to fly.
The body has to be living.
Pouring a healing potion onto an open wound, or into the mouth of an unconscious person, should work... and in my opinion woe betide the DM who disallows it on the grounds that the person didn't swallow it.
I don't buy the idea that swallowing is a viable triggering mechanism for spell effects. It doesn't work, by itself.
Allowing potions to work on living things, and not on constructs, means there's a biological function involved. Potions need some kind of absorption/catalyzing/whatever.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 00:08:52
You make an assumption here that its somehow the "water" or "liquid" in a potion that somehow permeates and effects you. This is incorrect. Its simply a delivery system for the magic, and the magic has nothing to do with the size of the person. A mirror image on a giant is the same as a mirror image on a human, though it is bigger. A cure light wounds for a human heals just as many hit points as it does on a giant. The potion just releases the magic through the methodology of swallowing it. Essentially, its a use-activated magic item whose use is explicitly specified as swallowing the material. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 00:02:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Fair enough... But if you consider the potion to be simply the carrier of the spell (similar to a wand), then the size issue can be pretty much ignored. As with a wand, it's not the quantity of that which contains the magic, simply that something does contain it.
Yea, there's a certain amount of hand-waving either way. It seems like in order for 1 ounce of human-brewed potion to have the same effect as 92 ounces of giant-brewed potion, there would have to be a difference in the way the magic gets stored in the liquid. And it's not a flagrant violation of lore to say that giants cast spells differently than humans do. It's been stated (somewhere) that dragons cast spells differently, which is a no-brainer since their hands, arms, and mouths are different and therefore they can't (without shapechanging) make the same gestures and words that humans make while casting. So... dragons casting differently than humanoids is an easy wave to accept. I have no trouble with giants casting differently than humans too, but the difference is much smaller, and that's emphasized by the assertion that giants are (biologically speaking) just bigger humans.
So there's support for hand-waving it all away. It's easier to just ignore verisimilitude and spend our energy on getting into the adventure.
I just like to kick in ideas where I can to increase the believability (or just amusement; 24 gallon stein!) for me, and whackjobs like me.
On the other hand, storm giants look at 92 ounces the same way we look at one ounce... it's tough for them to imagine enchanting any smaller amount of liquid. So they put the spell into a quantity of liquid which for them seems very small and easily carried, while still being noticeable going down the gullet. It's a cure light wounds spell (or whatever) either way; it isn't 92 times more powerful just because it's a larger volume. Their material components have to be bigger too, and that doesn't change their spell effects.
And the numbers do have some game value, even if you don't want to accept my whole spiel about 24.5 gallons being a storm giant's version of 2 pints. You can just take the detail that his stein is big enough for a halfling to hide behind.
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| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 23:39:58
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I don't think that it works that way. The grains would fall down if they were so big. Only grains up to a certain diameter can form a suspension.
Upon coming back and re-reading, I see your point. If all the other ingredients are the same, you can't just increase the particle size by a factor of 100 and expect them not to separate. The heavier stuff would fall to the bottom, leaving a clearer liquid. I was operating under the assumption that many/all of the ingredients would be different, and a storm giant's potion of healing wouldn't necessarily bear a passing resemblance to 92 potions of healing brewed by a human. I kinda figured every culture or community would have at least one recipe for each kind of potion made there... I don't really think PCs without specialized knowledge should be able to just casually identify potions based on there being only a handful of potions described in the DMG, and all of them being made the same way by everyone.
But my "visual" only involved increasing the particle size, with the implication that everything else would remain the same. Which makes it a pretty terrible visual.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 23:27:17
Fair enough... But if you consider the potion to be simply the carrier of the spell (similar to a wand), then the size issue can be pretty much ignored. As with a wand, it's not the quantity of that which contains the magic, simply that something does contain it.
At least, that's how I opt to look at it. YMMV, obviously. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 22:58:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I see your point, I think that this is one of those things that should just be hand-waved for simplicity...
While I see your point, and agree to some extent, one of the reasons I like pencil & paper RPGs as opposed to crpgs is the ability to take more control and attempt to approximate life and logic instead of abstracting wherever possible. I like some crpgs too, but it's for their graphics not their oversimplification. Different strokes, right?
The one-size-fits-all approach feels to me like dumbing things down and it critically reduces the playability of the game, for me. I don't expect everyone to agree... WotC certainly doesn't. But the fact that I appreciate a higher "resolution" in the world means that there are others who do as well, and some of them might have constructive suggestions. Which is why I decided to post. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 22:17:17
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Because it’s obviously ludicrous for a storm giant to benefit from a 1 ounce potion. How would he even get the cork out of a bottle that small?
While I see your point, I think that this is one of those things that should just be hand-waved for simplicity...
You could ask a similar question about a overly short halfling and an ogre getting the same benefits from the same amount of potion, despite their size difference...
Or the way a shield spell, cast by a great wyrm red dragon, confers the same protection as the spell does if cast by a 1st level human mage.
Or how a magic ring will resize itself to be worn by a halfling, a dragon, or anything between...
Or how about the fact that for a storm giant, any magic wand made by the smaller races would be about the size of a toothpick -- but it would have the same effect whether used by or against the giant.
This is one of those cases where applying logic to the game would result in pages of charts and modifiers that would slow down the game. There are places where the one-size-fits-all approach simplifies things, and this is a great example.
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| Irennan |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 21:48:39
Sludge, syrups and so on are examples of suspensions and solutions. You are right, the max dimension that the ''grains'' -so to speak- (indicating whatever particles are mixed to the solvent) can have before falling down depends on the solvent, but you have to take in account that during the process of a giant making a potion, whatever substance they are mixing with the solvent (as big as the piece of raw material can be) will break down into particles of the right dimension in order to be dissolved/suspended.
It's akin to taking a big sugar cube and trying to dissolve it in water: it will break down and the result won't change from a normal spoon of sugar being dissolved in water (it will just be slower).
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| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 20:38:28
Depends on the consistency of the liquid. Potions are probably not based on water; I just used water for illustration. Many potions could have a syrupy texture, which should affect things right? I'm not in chemistry, so I dunno.
The other thing is that I don't think potions should have to be suspensions, or solutions. Some potions might be entirely liquid, or syrup, or even sludge. Others might include grains that have to be in suspension (?) in order for the potion to work. Others might be a hodgepodge of liquids, grains, and larger things included in the mix... like a bay leaf, not generally intended to be consumed but which might contribute something vital in a magical context. Spells have all sorts of wacky material components, after all.
And some might have pieces that need to be swallowed in addition to the liquid. Is it not a potion if it has solid bits? I dunno, I think there's a gray area, or a supercategory, where anything designed to be consumed in order to initiate a magical effect can be called a potion. For example, an apple that cures wounds or causes invisibility when eaten... not strictly a potion, but clearly related.
The apples we eat are bigger than one ounce of course, but I don't see a problem with proportional grain size. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 20:17:36
quote:
Have you ever drank (or watched someone else try to drink) a glass of water with salt or any kind of powder that isn't fully dissolved? It’s tough. It’s like there’s sand in your water. Now picture how much harder it would be if those grains were 92 times bigger.
I don't think that it works that way. The grains would fall down if they were so big. Only grains up to a certain diameter can form a suspension. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 20:14:40
Incidentally, if my math isn't too messed up, a 34 oz stein, scaled up for a storm giant, would be 32 inches tall, with an interior diameter of 15 inches, and it would hold 24.5 gallons.  |
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