| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Solomon |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 09:50:25
Hey everybody,
I recently saw the movie the Dark Knight and was inspired to see how the character of Batman would fit into the Forgotten Realms. I used the comic book character rather than the movie version as my source. Many elements were quite simple to convert:
The Wayne empire. Rather than being the heir to a multi-billion dollar mega corporation, he is perhaps the heir of a prominent noble household or a hugely successful merchant house or trading company.
The death of his parents. The Forgotten Realms have no lack of thugs, ruffians and guttersnipes ready to sink a knife between someone's ribs for a few gold pieces.
His training. After his parents' murder, he begins the long and arduous journey of training his body, mind and spirit towards human perfection. Essentially, he travels the Realms, putting his wealth towards training in a wide variety of skills from the most prestigious sources. Perhaps he studies unarmed combat in distant Kara-Tur. He learns history and geography from sages and scholars in Silverymoon and reads rare tomes in the library fortress of Candlekeep. He trains as an investigator under the City Watch of Waterdeep. Of course, along the way he has countless adventures and grows and matures into the human being he becomes.
Anyway, I'm sure everyone knows enough about Batman to get the picture. Where I need your help is in deciding where to set the story. Where is this character's own 'Gotham'? Basically, the key elements are:
- A powerful/prevalent underworld/criminal presence
- The existence of prominent noble houses or powerful trading/merchant companies which exert influence/possess great wealth
- Corruption throughout government/power structures
I've been through the sourcebooks I have (basically all the 3.5 Edition FR rulebooks) and have examined several possibilities:
- First of all I considered Waterdeep, perhaps because of its size, the countless story threads and the prominence of nobility/trade in that city. However, on closer examination I decided this probably isn't appropriate - it's too well policed and well run, not corrupt enough and doesn't seem to fit the tone of the story (it's a bit like Superman's Metropolis to Batman's Gotham). The little I've read about the underground city of Skullport sounds intriguing but I don't have much information on it - if you believe this is a possibility please let me know and point me in the direction of some sources.
- The second option I considered was Luskan. I like this setting with its pirates, thugs and lowlives and its frontier geographical location as sort of the northernmost refuge for the scum of the Realms. Certainly there'd be plenty of work for the Batman there. The thing that makes me dubious is the lack of nobility or traders that hold any sort of power in Illuskan society - it's more a society of sailors and raiders than traders, and Batman seems to me (racially) more like a Tethyrian human than an Illuskan.
- The third option (and the one I feel fits most so far) is Westgate on the Dragon Coast. Not only does it have pirates, it has a powerful thieves guild in the form of the Night Masks as well as a separate assassins guild (the Fire Knives). From what I understand wealth is what makes things run in the lawless Dragon Coast, and so there's the corruption element and the powerful merchant companies. This seems to be the most appropriate setting I've considered but I'm open to criticism or suggestions to the contrary. Also, if anyone knows of more detailed sources of information on the Dragon Coast and especially Westgate (even if it's something that I already have and may have overlooked) that would be much appreciated.
Other options I have read a little on and may be viable include:
- The Moonsea (plenty of scum here, although the Zhentarim are the most important group here and I'm not sure that fits in so well with the 'war on crime' concept of the campaign)
- Teflamm (mainly because of the Shadowmasters - I know very little about this setting, however)
- Amn, especially Athkatla (I'm quite familiar with this region. It certainly fits in terms of the importance of trade and corruption, and being the base of the Shadow Thieves Guild certainly is apt)
Anyway, I'm here to ask your opinions on these potential settings (or indeed, any others I may have neglected) - what do you think would be the most appropriate Forgotten Realms equivalent to Gotham City?
Thanks in advance for your replies - I look forward to reading your advice.
Cheers,
Solomon |
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Calmar |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 22:26:27
So far that project sounds better than it seemed at first glance. How is the mysterious hero going to interact with the (other?) PCs?
You are not going to create him as a good-aligned werebat, are you? ;) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 18:50:21
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Ahh, that sounds a bit more like Count of Monte Cristo than Batman. Remember, the fun of Batman is the dual identity of Bruce Wayne/Batman. Being a well-to-do member of the nobility while avenging injustices at night.
Except the Count of Monte Cristo was about a single guy getting revenge against another, and he wasn't a vigilante.
It depends on the person, I guess. I've never been as much a fan of the dual identity aspect of Batman, as much as the masked vigilante aspect. I like the way everyone knows the alter-ego, but the real identity is a mystery. For me, that mystery is a significant part of the character. Not who is really behind the mask -- just the fact that it's unknown to those in the setting. I've actually created an NPC based around the hiding-in-plain-sight mysterious person idea.
Another aspect that some people may like is the "regular" guy who can go toe-to-toe with super-types and still hold his own.
I'm honestly not a fan of the character -- he's too often depicted as being nearly superhuman, even though he's not, and he's always got the right gadget handy, no matter what happens. I like the original concept, but the execution has, IMO, gone astray. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 18:01:31
Ahh, that sounds a bit more like Count of Monte Cristo than Batman. Remember, the fun of Batman is the dual identity of Bruce Wayne/Batman. Being a well-to-do member of the nobility while avenging injustices at night. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 15:55:29
Thinking on this a bit further...
How about having his parents be wealthy merchants? Nobles often have families that are just too large for convenience... His parents could have been slain by the hired thugs of a rival, who then burnt their home to the ground. The kid was elsewhere, so he survived -- though everyone thinks he's dead, killed at the same time as his parents. Or maybe the kid was slain, but the body was recovered by a trusted underling, who had him brought back to life (though that would mean some priest would also know the truth). Everyone else would still think he was dead, though, and unless it was careful worded, a divination wouldn't reveal the truth ("Did he survive the attack on his family?" No. Or, "Was he killed in the attack that killed his family?" Yes.).
A powerful enough cleric could also bring him back to life years later, which would still serve to complicate things.
Either way, a trusted underling knew he was alive, and also knew where much of the family gold was secreted. Thru careful investments, he increased the family wealth, though it's not tracable back to the now-slain family.
Now our vigilante comes home. He makes his lair in some out-of-the-way spot. It could be an underground complex that survived, it could be a forgotten basement, or it could be a hidden basement under a warehouse.
That last option is particularly good, I think, because it would make it very easy for him to come and go unnoticed. Not only that, but everything he needs could be legitimately bought and stored at the warehouse, which gives him a way of getting what he needs without being seen or having stuff traced back to him. It also means that his supplies can be purchased with relative anonymity.
The trusted underling also keeps a low profile, and meetings between the two are kept to a minimum. Some magical means of communication would be excellent, here.
This all gives our guy his motivation, his means of support, his lair, ways to get about unseen, and a hidden identity that no one would ever suspect.
Ooh, and if the trusted underling was the cleric, that makes things more interesting. He may have recovered the body, but been too low in level to bring him back to life, until he'd gained more XP, years later. This would also give the underling some way to be relatively unnoticed ("oh, he's just a cleric at the temple.") and access to healing magic for the vigilante. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 15:38:15
Making someone immune to being scried isn't boring -- there are already in-game methods for doing that. And I think it's necessary. Otherwise, a low-level wizard is going to ruin the guy's (or girl's) crime-fighting career before it even gets started.
I'm not saying our vigilante has to be rich or powerful or have access to much magic. But he is going to need some way to not be magically revealed, or it's all over for him.
And it doesn't mean no one can do anything against him, either. Setting up a ward that prevents access to anyone but the caster or a select few, or someone with a token, is a reasonable precaution, and being immune to divination isn't going to get him past it. Spells that blast the hell out of the first person in their range aren't going to be blocked, either.
Blocking divination just means that when someone casts a spell and asks "Who did this?" or "Where do I find the person who did this?", the spell won't work. You can't have a career as a masked anything if you don't have some way of keeping people from finding out who you are.
Having a twin or double wouldn't solve the divination problem, either. A scrying spell would still zero in on the actual perpetrator. The only thing a double is going to do is give an alibi that won't stand up to a lot of magical scrutiny. And if our vigilante isn't a prominent person, it's not necessary. If no one knows who he is in public (just another dock worker, for example), or if, even better, no one even knows he exists (staying totally hidden, even when off-duty), then there's no need for a double. Of course, that latter option could necessitate more magic -- because he needs to get food and supplies, so it's either summon them, create them, or have a very trusted associate procure them. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 12:51:20
In the age of thermal cameras I always wonder why Batman would get away with his secret identity or his batcave for long. So Gotham and the Batman adventures belong to an age before our mini-spycams and electronic gadgets. That said the new movies are really awesome and make much more sense in the storyline / probability factor than many of those that came before. This "problem" is translated into divination spells for D&D. Making someone "immune" to one type of spells is a problem IMO, because it tends to be a bit boring to be unable to do something against him. The problem with Bruce Wayne/Batman is that he is rich and close to all-powerful. Not many things are a technical challenge for him - he can get just about any gadget - and only personal challenges remain in the battles. This transfers to a fully equipped and divine-immune fantasy version too, so some alternative solutions to magic might be a good thing.
"Confusing magic" (i.e. disguising as someone else) would be much better, because the "Hero" could do things in the open and other people get the blame. Disguise doesnt have to be via magic (but the spells are MUCH lower level than the divine-immunity stuff) either, so its much easier to work with (detect magic screws you if you can only do it via magic and detecting magic should be standard for important guarded places). Having a double to be seen while you are truly away doing something dangerous would be a great idea too, especially if it was a twin. This might even foil/confuse some divination spells without needing a ton of magic yourself - if it was a twin maybe. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 00:32:57
Just as a note, the Spymaster PrC from the Complete Adventurer does let you block scrying/divination (though I am not sure at which level this ability is granted). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 14:38:57
I don't think it's as necessary to ward his home as much as his person. |
| Solomon |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 09:44:32
Indeed, that's one of the problems with being a masked vigilante in a world where revealing someone's identity is only a divination spell away.
Personally I don't think it would be too much trouble for someone of his wealth to hire spellcasters of his own to permanently ward his home and so on against divination magic, ostensibly to protect his business from trade rivals seeking to gain some sort of advantage. He'd likely also possess some form of magic item on his person which protects him against scrying and so on, and perhaps something similar to protect against telepathy and other forms of mind-reading. Any suggestions? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 06:06:51
Saerloon does sound like an excellent choice. 
BTW, keep in mind that your masked vigilante will need a way to defeat divination. The first time he annoys someone quite wealthy, they'll be hiring a wizard to scry for and/or magically track him. |
| Solomon |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 04:50:53
Thanks a lot for the help. If it weren't for the sages and scholars of Candlekeep, I don't know where I'd be. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 04:19:00
quote:
Originally posted by Solomon
Does anyone know of good sources of information on Sembia, particularly Saerloon? Thanks again for all your help.
- Forgotten Realms Adventures [Daerlun, Ordulin, Saerloon, Selgaunt, Urmlaspyr, Yhaunn]
- Rand's Travelogue: Caravans and Trading Companies in Sembia
- Rand's Travelogue: More Old Empires and Sembia
- Realmslore: The Matchmaker of Sembia
- Realmslore: Melvos Hammerstars
- "Land of Merchants" -- POLYHEDRON #94
- Ed Greenwood's contributions at Candlekeep
- the "Sembia" series of novels
- Cult of the Dragon [available as a free PDF download at WotC] [pgs. 33–34] |
| Solomon |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 03:58:16
Thanks to everyone for your replies - you exceeded my expectations.
After carefully investigating and examining each of your excellent suggestions, I found myself spoiled for choice. Oddly enough, however, I found what may be the perfect setting completely by accident, while browsing through the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting source book.
Saerloon in Sembia is a hotbed of merchants, thievery and intrigue. The FRCS mentions "soaring gothic architecture" and the presence of a variety of unsavoury organizations including "thieves guilds such as the Night Knives, slavers such as the Eyeless Mask, the Cult of the Dragon, the Red Wizards of Thay, and even the Dark Moon monks of Shar". Sembia is a nation of powerful merchants, so the background for the character is ideal. I think it could be as close to perfect as I could possibly hope for.
Does anyone know of good sources of information on Sembia, particularly Saerloon? Thanks again for all your help. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 23:35:43
A well-funded lone vigilante would be a great fit for Westgate. A rogue/paladin of Hoar would work nicely, taking his Vengeance directly to the corrupted criminals (with maxed ranks in Use Magic Device, so as to appear like an army of wizards - i.e. via wands, staves, etc. - and always striking from the cover of greater invisibility and nondetection!  ) |
| Gabeth |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 20:26:13
If you want intrigue, decadence, and corruption, then Calimport is certainly a possibility. The underground city below Calimport (the Muzad), adds an extra depth of danger and evil (the largest church of Shar in all the Realms, anyone?). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 14:31:17
I had a similar idea, and also considered Westgate... But Thauramarth's suggestion has much merit, too.
I later abandoned my Batman idea. The intent wasn't to create a Batman, it was an attempt to find a use for an NPC I've been tinkering with. I considered the Batman approach, but later decided it didn't really work for the NPC. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 12:10:51
I agree with your assessment of Luskan - Gotham has always struck me as being decripit, decadent, and sombre. Luskan strikes me as being more dynamic, very rough and tough, bot not decadent, and lacking the network of noble families that you are looking for.
It's a matter of debate on exactly how well-policed Waterdeep is, but I see some other issue - there are already many groups of unofficial peacekeepers about (Harpers, agents of the various Lords, Force Grey), and a darth of masked and caped crusaders in place already (the Lords of Waterdeep, for instance). Part of the Dark Knight's mystique arises from the idea that he's the only masked hero in town, and that he acts independently. In Waterdeep, he'd just be one among many. Plus, there are some very powerful players in Waterdeep who would either try to neutralize a Batman-like figure (yet another random factor, when there's already more than enough around, thank you), or try to control him.
Out of the three you picked, Westgate seems the most likely. The only issue that I can see is that almost all crime and all criminals would answer to the Night Masks. A Batman-like presence would work better in a city with a great number of criminals, not one single, over-arching criminal syndicate, like the Night Masks. In my view, logic would require that such an organisation immediately try to wipe out the Dark Knight.
As a further alternative, have you considered Iriaebor? Not only does it have a nice atmosphere (built against the slopes of the rock spur known as the Tor, many towers, narrow streets eternally cast in shadows), but it also has the other ingredients - a basically decent ruler who has to manage the intrigues and plots of a 40-men/woman council, representing the noble families and interests. From there, it's an easy step to setting a history of street battles being fought between the private armies/thug bands of the nobles, with a number of smaller criminal organisations fighting each other, and alongside each other, depending on the necessities of the moment.
The Forgotten Realms Adventures provides info, as does Volo, who writes of "constant, many-layered, often violent intrigues between the many merchant houses, families, and cabals of the city" (Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, p. 202; unfortunately the only Volo's Guide not available as a free download from the Wizards website, but for sale as PDF from Paizo, etc.). Iriabor has the gloomy atmosphere, as well as the required combination of unscrupulous power groups of about equal power, none of whom could take out a Dark Knight-like figure at a whim.
I can see the Wayne-type looking out over Iriaebor from the windows of his mansion located on the highest slope of the Tor, with a secret hideout dug into the rock of the tor. |
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