| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kalevala |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 23:26:32
*Ahem*
I'm soon going to start a campaign with the main plot idea of the Cult of the Dragon trying to bypass Ahghairon's Dragonward and take over Waterdeep by turning willing dragons into dracoliches.
Now I need to know whether dracoliches have a subtype of Undead (dragon) or not. I believe this isn't mentioned in the FRCS. If they have the dragon subtype, the Cult's plan obviously won't work...
Another thing I need help with is, what are Maaril's goals and motivations / what's he up to nowadays? Would he be likely to ally himself with the Cult or oppose it? |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kalevala |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 00:17:32
Hey, maybe this could help with the previous problem concerning the difficulty of using Waterdeep's resources after taking control of the city:
I just read from the Expedition to Undermountain (pg.12-13) that the church of Shar plans to put all of the city under the sway of Shar, and then intends to use the resources of the city to work toward the destruction of Selūne.
Now, they must have a plan how to go about this. If anyone has any insight on how exactly, it might lead to an appliable solution.
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
It does not matter whether or not a dracolich retains the dragon type or as a subtype, since all undead creatures have immunity to mind-affecting effects, and antipathy is a mind-affecting spell.
D'oh! 
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
He makes an appearance in Blackstaff, though I do not believe it specifies what he is up to right now (specifically if he is still in Waterdeep).
Yeah, I just recently read that book, and you're right: Nothing about his current doings in it. Thanks anyway!  |
| The Simbul |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 10:40:43
quote:
Originally posted by Kalevala
*Ahem*
I'm soon going to start a campaign with the main plot idea of the Cult of the Dragon trying to bypass Ahghairon's Dragonward and take over Waterdeep by turning willing dragons into dracoliches.
Now I need to know whether dracoliches have a subtype of Undead (dragon) or not. I believe this isn't mentioned in the FRCS. If they have the dragon subtype, the Cult's plan obviously won't work...
It does not matter whether or not a dracolich retains the dragon type or as a subtype, since all undead creatures have immunity to mind-affecting effects, and antipathy is a mind-affecting spell.
Hence one of the reasons why antipathy was somewhat of a poor choice to represent the "racial interdiction" powers of 3E mythals.quote:
Another thing I need help with is, what are Maaril's goals and motivations / what's he up to nowadays? Would he be likely to ally himself with the Cult or oppose it?
He makes an appearance in Blackstaff, though I do not believe it specifies what he is up to right now (specifically if he is still in Waterdeep). |
| Kalevala |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 16:56:32
Wooly, those are some ideas your giving away there - and for free!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, one central issue in any of these suggestions: how does the bad guy (be it the Cult or an individual dragon) know that the Dragon Mage controls the Dragonward?
I'm thinking they/it/(s)he learn(s) it from a dragon that has touched the staff - by force, espionage, or otherwise. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 22:45:23
quote:
Originally posted by Calrond
Wooly Rupert, does that fit as a reason why the Cult would be interested in Waterdeep? To gain favor of the dragons that Maaril denies entrance?
Eh... It's iffy. If the dragon was good-aligned and Maaril denied them entrance, why would they turn to (or even trust) an evil group? If the dragon was evil, they might or might not be willing to work with the Cult, just to gain interest... Either way, the Cult has to offer more incentive, I think. Why? Because being beholden to Maaril or being beholden to the Cult, the result is the same: you owe someone else. I'm thinking most dragons would choose to find their own ways in, rather than deal with the Cult. Either they'd send in their own agents, or they'd find a dragon that did get in, and find out how they did it. With the prideful and independent nature of most dragons, I think the Cult would be a method of last resort.
What would be more plausible, to me, is launching this thing not from the Cult, but from a dragon. Some dragon, pissed off at Maaril, turns to the Cult as a way to enable an assault against Maaril... This dragon's goal might be anything, including ruling the city itself, but the objective would be to get control of the Dragonward out of Maaril's hands. I think a dragon that did this would only use the Cult to further his/her own ends, and then, once the Dragonward was no longer an issue to that particular dragon, would sever all ties to the Cult.
Of course, one central issue in any of these suggestions: how does the bad guy (be it the Cult or an individual dragon) know that the Dragon Mage controls the Dragonward? |
| Calrond |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 21:56:57
CoS:W also mentions that there are some dragons who have determined a way past the Dragonward. The "backdoor" for dragons into Waterdeep is a piece information that can be had if one of those dragons could be convinced to give it. Maybe the Cult of the Dragon is after that information so that they could offer dragons the opportunity to do what they will with Waterdeep (run affairs in human guise, most likely) as part of a bargaining chip for becoming a dracolich. Of course, if they became a dracolich, it wouldn't affect them anyway, but most dragons wouldn't become a dracolich too hastily. That way, rather than having the Cult of the Dragon after Waterdeep itself, they're actually after a way around the Dragonward. It's not that the Cult is after Waterdeep for themselves, but they know that many dragons (those who Maaril won't allow access to Waterdeep) want to get in the city and may be willing to join or assist the cult (with promise or at the very least open negotiation of one day becoming a dracolich).
Waterdeep as bargaining chip, rather than something to be taken over by the Cult themselves.
Wooly Rupert, does that fit as a reason why the Cult would be interested in Waterdeep? To gain favor of the dragons that Maaril denies entrance? |
| Kalevala |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 15:59:04
quote:
Originally posted by Sian
"why the need of winning if our enemies lose" :p
Heh, a toungue-in-cheek reply to be sure, nevertheless not exactly what I meant. To clarify: I thought that if the Cult can't see what would ultimately happen to them if undead dragons would rule supreme, how could they see the flaws in their own plan? As I said, they're crazy people.
Even so, Wooly Rupert presented a whole bunch of valid points (although not addressing this one specifically), so I thought I'd develop on your idea: What if their only plan WAS to get some of their greatest enemies in the city killed in the ensuing chaos? Wouldn't that make their other operations much easier in that region?
The only problem I can see with this idea, is with what kind of lies would they talk the dragons into executing this plan?
quote:
Originally posted by Calrond
This is odd since I'm running a very similar campaign right now in my campaign.
LOL, that is quite a coincidence!
edit: typo |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 03:53:17
quote:
Originally posted by Calrond
Wooly Rupert, do you think that Waterdeep's gold (of the city and its people) could be enough to attract the Cult of the Dragon?
Nope. While there is a lot of money to be had in Waterdeep, you have to figure that part of its wealth is in investments, and that those who have great amounts of wealth have at least some contingencies for moving it out of the city.
If the Cult openly took over, then the wealthy people would be the first to flee, taking as much of their wealth as they could carry. And then, after that, no one would want to go there to do business. A large part of Waterdeep's economic and political power comes not from its location, but from the fact it is a relatively safe place to do business -- it's a generally friendly and law-abiding city, with fair laws that are justly enforced. Take that away, and no small part of its business appeal goes away.
Any power group that wants to try to take over Waterdeep pretty much has to do it by replacing the Lords. And with their secrecy, that's a tall order. Only Hlaavin is in a position to do that, and I think that even he would be wary of trying to replace all the Lords. And being that he's already in a good position, he's not going to want to work with any outside power groups. |
| Calrond |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 02:39:41
This is odd since I'm running a very similar campaign right now in my campaign. Cult of the Dragon, Maaril, dracoliches becoming undead rather than dragon types, the Dragonward, etc. and I ran into the same "but what would they gain by taking over Waterdeep?" issue too. I have taken the route that they'd want to use Waterdeep's monetary resources (through their illegal operations on pages 31-33 of Cult of the Dragon 2E sourcebook) but to what end, other than for materials for the potions needed to turn dragons into dracoliches, I don't know. Some people of Waterdeep, and the city itself, have deep pockets and can contribute a lot to the Cult if the cult members know how to get their hands in those pockets.
Other than that, I can't see what Waterdeep could have that would attract the Cult. I hadn't pictured a battle between dragons and dracoliches above Waterdeep, but that would be a great way to add to the suspense of the near-end of the story. I did begin with the characters finding a few zombies in the sewers that had killed three members of the Cellarers' and Plumbers' Guild. The players took evidence of this to Guildmaster Turnstone (who they don't know is the enslaved thrall of an aboleth) and he reported it to Lord Piergeiron. The Cult of the Dragon, it turns out, had a few necromancers begin raising zombies and storing them in seldom-visited parts of Waterdeep's sewers for some reason, the zombies themselves coming from raised bodies from the City of the Dead. Now, as to why the Cult was storing zombies in the sewers of Waterdeep is something I haven't quite figured out yet. I think it could be a way to keep them somewhere hidden for a raid on surrounding areas (just gather the zombies together and have a few mages shadowwalk them or teleport them to the area in question) or a way to threaten Waterdeep once the numbers of zombies are significant (turn over a few carts of gold or we order the zombies to attack; not impressive until you get a few thousand zombies).
Wooly Rupert, do you think that Waterdeep's gold (of the city and its people) could be enough to attract the Cult of the Dragon? If not, do you think that the Cult might want to recruit new human members from Waterdeep's shadier side (Skullport, the Vanrakdoom Sharrans, Loviatar worshippers, Talonites, Cyricist nobles, etc.) or find possible new dragon members among the few dragons in Waterdeep? We already know they've been after the two black dragons in the Mere of Dead Men, but there are other dragons in and around Waterdeep (Maaril's green dragon assistant for one) that might join if offered.
Just some thoughts. |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 01:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Roll Call of Dragons (Dragons of Faerūn web enhancement) lists about 9 dragons currently living in Waterdeep; most are of non-evil varieties.
While I've found that particular listing useful, it doesn't look anywhere near complete. I always thought there were A LOT more dragons mentioned in the Realm Lore than those just catalogued in this web enhancement.
Has any effort been made to update this listing?
EDIT - Sian, I love your sig line. "Our Solemn Hour" happens to be one of my, and the Sage's, favorite songs!  |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 22:32:26
In my campaign (Set during the year of rogue dragons)Maaril doesnt have the staff any more Sammaster killed him and gave the staff to the Wearer of th purple who lives in Undermountain |
| Sian |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 22:32:15
"why the need of winning if our enemies lose" :p |
| Kalevala |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 20:44:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just don't think that this idea, as currently described, would be viable.
Well, I'm not sure. These guys are obviously nut cases and might think that this kind of plan could ultimately work. The threat wouldn't be that they could actually take over the city but that they would cause serious damage trying. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 17:32:59
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Another source for dragons in Waterdeep is Dragons of Faerun (of course). There are not only singular dragons protecting the city, there is also the Confluence, a secret society of half-steel dragons and their patrons hunting down shapeshangers who want to establish themselves in the city. The Confluence has strong ties to the maior good-aligned powergroups in the city, including the Harpers, of course. They would spring immediately to help.
I dont know if the Talons of Justice (an paladin-order of silver dragons and half-gold and half-silver dragons) have agents in Waterdeep, but no doubt, they would not tolerate an assault of the Cult on the city and its draconic and non-draconic habitants.
Oh, yeah, the Confluence (which was a great incorporation of an otherwise obscure bit of lore) would definitely oppose it... And with the Dragonward and the number of dragons in the city and in the area, I can readily see the Talons having at least one agent there... Other draconic-related groups, like information networks run by dragons, would also have agents there... And there's likely a dragonborn or two watching the area, too. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 16:37:21
Another source for dragons in Waterdeep is Dragons of Faerun (of course). There are not only singular dragons protecting the city, there is also the Confluence, a secret society of half-steel dragons and their patrons hunting down shapeshangers who want to establish themselves in the city. The Confluence has strong ties to the maior good-aligned powergroups in the city, including the Harpers, of course. They would spring immediately to help.
I dont know if the Talons of Justice (an paladin-order of silver dragons and half-gold and half-silver dragons) have agents in Waterdeep, but no doubt, they would not tolerate an assault of the Cult on the city and its draconic and non-draconic habitants. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 15:17:04
I, personally, think Maaril would resent the intrusion into his territory. Ahgairon's staff gives him a great deal of leverage over many of Waterdeep's dragon population. Taking that leverage out of the equation would cut him out of the power he currently wields. For that reason, I think he would oppose the Cult.
The Roll Call of Dragons (Dragons of Faerūn web enhancement) lists about 9 dragons currently living in Waterdeep; most are of non-evil varieties. One of Ed's short stories mentioned that there are more dragons than those 9 in Waterdeep -- those are just the ones known on the list. At least one of the Wyrms of the North claims territory encompassing Waterdeep, as well.
I'm still not convinced this is a good Cult idea. It's worth noting that the Cult is not a "rule openly" type of group. If they took Waterdeep, they'd never truly rule it -- everyone would simply leave and take their business elsewhere. Also, they would likely also face opposition not just from good guys (which would be very determined and hard to overcome, as it is), but also from other evil groups that have their own plans for the city.
And killing Harpers isn't a great motivation, either. Since the Harper Schism, their influence in Waterdeep is greatly diminished. Even if it wasn't, there are easier ways to take out a few dozen people than conquering a rather tough nut of a city. And if killing Harpers was truly a goal, why not simply attack Berdusk?
I'm truly not trying to rain on your parade... I just don't think that this idea, as currently described, would be viable.
|
| Kalevala |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 12:56:14
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Okay, according to the Draconomicon, the creature's type changes to undead, and I looked up the stats for the sample dracoliches in Dragon magazine, and they are indeed listed as undead, not as undead (Dragon). So I think your loop hole could actually work.
Hey thanks!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Keep in mind, though, that there are a lot of Waterdhavian dragons who would immediately (and in some cases, quite visibly) respond to this threat.
I'm also curious as to why the Cult wants to take over Waterdeep...
Wooly, would you care to mention a few of these dragons? (Name/alignment/age/color)
Of course there are many other hinderances the Cult has to take into account, such as the Statues etc. Anyone care to list some?
As to the motivations, it's still in the works, and I'd be grateful if someone would like to contribute, but this is what I've gathered so far:
a) The Cult thinks that undead dragons should rule the world, so why not start with an as influential city as Waterdeep?
b) They have the means to do it (at least they think so)
c) They're crazy enough to try it
d) What Sian said
On a side note, even if the plan ultimately fails, it's still a major threat because the dracoliches would surely inflict massive damage on the city.
quote:
Originally posted by Sian
if the cult manage to sneak close enough to the city i even think that they would be a slight favorite for the first battles untill waterdeep gathers, regroup organize help from strong allies that can teleport relatively massive forces overthere
by guess would be that the cult win the first battle but a group would manage to barricade somewhere and call help all over the friendly world and basicly just sit tight defending what they have control over and making raids ageinst the liches
---
well ... about Maaril ... i think that at first he would be somewhat unproductive for either site, but after relatively short time he start getting affaid of losing his hoards to the cult and thereby more by need than willingness join up with the city ... could also give him a key role later that to win they have to kill the ward
Well, I was thinking that the Cult would have their new local base of operations in the Undermountain, so they'd be sure to get the element of surprise. Of course, the PCs would learn of this, and their eventual mission would be to descend to the depths and stop the rituals taking place there.
Thanks for the insight on Maaril. Any ideas on his general motivations/plans at the moment?
One more thing: The campaign starts a couple of months before the Feast of the Moon in 1374, so I was thinking, did Khelben know about Maaril having the Dragonstaff of Ahghairon and what it can do? The CoS:W only implies that the Lords don't know about it.
edit: The reason why I'm asking about Khelben is that I was thinking that the Moonstars would like to recruit the heroes at some point. |
| Sian |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 07:18:16
to prove that they are strong enough to take the greatest city and thereby kill off the harpers that annoy them in the heat
it would end in a massive battle above waterdeep between all the waterdhavian dragons (even those few of questionable alliences) and the dracoliches
if the cult manage to sneak close enough to the city i even think that they would be a slight favorite for the first battles untill waterdeep gathers, regroup organize help from strong allies that can teleport relatively massive forces overthere
by guess would be that the cult win the first battle but a group would manage to barricade somewhere and call help all over the friendly world and basicly just sit tight defending what they have control over and making raids ageinst the liches
could be a interesting plot to play or make a novel :P
edit:
well ... about Maaril ... i think that at first he would be somewhat unproductive for either site, but after relatively short time he start getting affaid of losing his hoards to the cult and thereby more by need than willingness join up with the city ... could also give him a key role later that to win they have to kill the ward |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 05:16:21
Keep in mind, though, that there are a lot of Waterdhavian dragons who would immediately (and in some cases, quite visibly) respond to this threat.
I'm also curious as to why the Cult wants to take over Waterdeep... |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 00:09:33
Okay, according to the Draconomicon, the creature's type changes to undead, and I looked up the stats for the sample dracoliches in Dragon magazine, and they are indeed listed as undead, not as undead (Dragon). So I think your loop hole could actually work.
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