| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 05:24:14
Ok, we have Espruar, Dethek and Thorass for the three "medium-sized" races; how about the Hin and the Forgotten Folk, and our greedy large reptilian friends who live in caves and hoard treasure?
This came about in our last session last night: one of my players has a high-level halfling wizard and would find it neat to incorporate a purely halfling or draconic rune into his wizard sigil. Don't get me wrong: I think it's fantastic we have three alphabets shown in the FRCS already, but I am wondering if other runes/alphabets have been "written/depicted" in other Realms products. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 19:22:24
I agree with all your points there. Yes... I think the Auran script (squiggly and flowing) would fit the Luirenian mindset very well... either that or Thorass, just to mimick Tolkien!  (i.e. Bilbo seems to use the "common" script of middle-earth, and when he wrote his book in elvish, it seems like it was a big deal; i.e. they were surprised to see such worldliness from a hobbit, etc.) |
| GoCeraf |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 04:24:18
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I almost agreed with you here, except for the fact that the Realms have so many alphabets that are sometimes used illogically... for instance, Halruaan uses the Draconic alphabet, Damaran uses Dethek, and Undercommon uses Espruar (see language section of FRCS). Mulhorandi uses Celestial, while Mulhorandi (Thay) uses Infernal...
I would hesitate to put halflings into the Thorass box, as they have been slaves to the Calim empire (Auran); Gnomes broke free from Netherese (Draconic) slavery to take refuge with the elves (Espruar).
If I had to make a fast ruling, I'd go for Halfling = Auran, and Gnomish = Espruar (especially since Undercommon, used by Svirneblin, is also Espruar)
Thoughts?
PS: this still doesn't solve it for the halflings... What does Auran looks like?!? 
I'll take a shot at this, if I may.
Let's first examine your argument against Thorass as the common language (as well as for halflings and gnomes).
Many of those other languages that you mentioned are the local languages, which I'll turn to in a few moments. I like to think of Common as English, and I think a lot of authors and designers agree with me (although there are discrepancies, since I've read references to English letters when Thorass is decidedly non-English). Aside from that, however, you also have the original Thorass language, the name of which I can't remember. Old Thorass, maybe...
Anyhow, this Old Thorass might more appropriately be like the Latin language of Earth, in that there are a multitude of languages which are based on it, all using the same written language. At the same time, however, many of the other languages of Earth use the same or similar written alphabets, like some of the Eastern Asian languages.
The FRCS lists several dead languages (the Old-Thorass-what-have-you) among them, as well as some others, like Aragrahk (old/high Draconic). It might be assumed that these are the original languages to use these alphabets, from which the languages are based. In a sense, there might be similarities among these languages since they share alphabets among one another. At the same time, it's also entirely possible that these alphabets are modified for each language, to better suit pronunciation (German and Russian writing has similar letters to English with different pronunciations).
Um... there might be a point up there.
Anyway, look at Halruaan, which is based on the Netherese language. I feel like I've read that magical writing and incantations are Draconic or something similar, and Nether (and more recently Halruaa) were/are magocracies. Looking at Mulhorandi and Thayan Mulhorandi, which use Celestial and Infernal, respectively; well, that's very much two sides of the same coin. Some accounts state that devils were fallen celestials (incidentally, I believe that's how it is in the Fourth Edition), which could insinuate a similarity in pronunciation.
Finally, to your actual point: what do these scripts look like?
I haven't the foggiest.
However, looking at the cultures might shed some light. Elves are seen as graceful and wise, and their alphabet is thus curved and prettily portrayed. Dwarves are short and sharp, and again, their blocky, angular script is the same. Thorass, serving as the common script, is simple and formulaic.
As such, Auran might look like wisps of wind, like spirals and clouds of varying sizes. Draconic, sharp and varied, complicated (maybe overly so), and arcane. Rock gnomes and deep gnomes need not use the same alphabet (after all, the various human languages don't use the same alphabets), and Undercommon is literally the Common of the Underdark. It is by no means the svirnebli's personal language.
My train of though was starting at stopping, but I may have grazed upon a coherent argument there.
All the best. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 01:24:41
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I wouldn't take the 3E Realms attribution of scripts (many of them newly made up for the game) as solid lore. I'd bank on the Netherese having their own script, for instance.
Hmm... then we may have a problem. Where is the 2E FR canon source on languages? I will go there and compare it with 3E... Thanks!
Seek out a copy of the article entitled "Speaking in Tongues" by Tom Costa. 'Twas only published in DRAGON Annual #4. Note that it's a [very interesting] taxonomy, not an in-depth examination of any particular language.
Also, take a look through Ed's compiled replies, as he's covered this subject a few times. And the various 2e 'regional' books, which provide some brief notes on many of the more popular human racial dialects.
|
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 18:55:54
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I wouldn't take the 3E Realms attribution of scripts (many of them newly made up for the game) as solid lore. I'd bank on the Netherese having their own script, for instance.
Hmm... then we may have a problem. Where is the 2E FR canon source on languages? I will go there and compare it with 3E... Thanks! |
| Pandora |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 08:21:32
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
And scratching out two dimensional runes would be below a Dragon's dignity.
Afet
Well I was more or less thinking about dragons tracing runes in thin air (which isnt a flat surface). Dragons dont manufacture paper, and writing important things on the walls of their caves doesnt seem right. So I would think they would have to develop a totally different way to write things down (if they do that at all compared to simply remembering everything). |
| Faraer |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 08:18:10
Unless the slave halflings were used as scribes, they wouldn't have been literate at that point. I think it's much more likely that they'd adapt to the human ways of central Faerûn and write in Thorass.
I wouldn't take the 3E Realms attribution of scripts (many of them newly made up for the game) as solid lore. I'd bank on the Netherese having their own script, for instance. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 07:23:08
quote:
Originally posted by Artemel
Common in PHB uses Common script. In FRCS, it uses Thorass.
Halfling in PHB uses Common script; ergo, Halflings in FR could use Thorass?
Similar logic leads to Gnomish being written in Dethek.
I almost agreed with you here, except for the fact that the Realms have so many alphabets that are sometimes used illogically... for instance, Halruaan uses the Draconic alphabet, Damaran uses Dethek, and Undercommon uses Espruar (see language section of FRCS). Mulhorandi uses Celestial, while Mulhorandi (Thay) uses Infernal...
I would hesitate to put halflings into the Thorass box, as they have been slaves to the Calim empire (Auran); Gnomes broke free from Netherese (Draconic) slavery to take refuge with the elves (Espruar).
If I had to make a fast ruling, I'd go for Halfling = Auran, and Gnomish = Espruar (especially since Undercommon, used by Svirneblin, is also Espruar)
Thoughts?
PS: this still doesn't solve it for the halflings... What does Auran looks like?!? |
| Azkyroth |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 04:51:27
quote:
And scratching out two dimensional runes would be below a Dragon's dignity.
I don't know; I can see them smirking at the fact that they can effortlessly carve an inscription that lesser creatures have to struggle for minutes or hours to create a pale imitation. I can definitely see them being choosy about what they'd write on; perhaps each species of dragon has a single or small group of materials it considers suitable for manuscripts (paper, needless to say, is right out; I'm thinking stone or metal). Anyone like that idea, and/or have any materials to suggest?
quote:
Actually, to me, they look like regular letters, done in an Oriental fashion. It's way too close to the standard English alphabet for my liking. Even if their written language was based on individual sounds, rather than characters like the real-world Kanji, it's not illogical to assume they'd have more or less letters for specific sounds that occur frequently in their spoken language -- kinda like how Spanish has that double-l, or the ñ, or accented letters like é, or how French has letters like ç.
I agree. I think I'll keep the general "feel" of these in mind and try to work backwards from it to something less openly Oriental-style, but using what are essentially stylized Anglo-Roman characters for the language of dragons (or any language in the FR) fails my Suspension of Disbelief check. I vaguely recall one of the symbols of one of the dragon gods having a book with runes in it in at least one version; I'll see if I can dig it up somewhere and maybe start with that as a stylistic guide [EDIT]found it[/EDIT]. Still giving serious consideration to an abugida, but I'm not sure how I'd go about making that a font.
(The first thing I'm going to do is copy and paste those characters together into a message in English; if people with no knowledge of the script can easily read it, I'm probably starting from scratch x.x).
Mod edit: Added quotation marks to make URL coding work properly.  |
| Artemel |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 03:29:30
Just a quick thought.
Common in PHB uses Common script. In FRCS, it uses Thorass.
Halfling in PHB uses Common script; ergo, Halflings in FR could use Thorass?
Similar logic leads to Gnomish being written in Dethek.
Doesn't help you find Draconic fonts, but it might help with the gnome's sigil matter.
If you are really stuck on wanting a font, the Daedric font for Morrowind isn't bad, and can be downloaded at http://www.imperial-library.info/daedric/
IIRC, the font only has capital letters when used in a word program though. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 01:10:48
You should probably just email the file to Alaundo. Or, alternatively, you could use one of those fancy temporary upload sites [like RapidShare/RapidSpread] that can store files for others to download. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 01:05:31
Ok... I will try and give it a whirl tonight... starting with the Halfling alphabet!
I shall show you what I have in the morning!
{Mods, Alaundo: is there a space we can upload files here in order to link it for others to see? I'm afraid I've never looked into the pathetic services offered by my ISP...  } |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 01:02:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/ShouAlphabet.jpg
Yes, if Shou is based on Draconic, we should base our "True Draconic" on this example... perhaps very similar but more fluid in style.. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 23:36:07
quote:
Originally posted by Azkyroth
[EDIT2]It appears my recollection of OA being a Forgotten-Realms-World-expansion specifically was erroneous; never mind.
Oriental Adventures and the first few modules in that line were originally set on some unspecified world (some have speculated it was meant to be the other side of Oerth, though I've never seen anything to support that). Later on, everything under the Oriental Adventures banner was tacked on to the Realms. So the early OA stuff doesn't have the FR logo, but it is still -- officially -- Forgotten Realms stuff. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 23:32:55
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Azkyroth
Just realized Shou also uses Draconic, which suggests another potential source for an alphabet. Anything in Oriental Adventures about that? [EDIT2]It appears my recollection of OA being a Forgotten-Realms-World-expansion specifically was erroneous; never mind.
Strangely enough, the alphabet is one of the few things about Kara-Tur that wasn't RW dirivitive. It is a phonetic system - you can see it here -
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/ShouAlphabet.jpg
Those symobols look more Egyptian then Chinese to me, but what do I know?
Actually, to me, they look like regular letters, done in an Oriental fashion. It's way too close to the standard English alphabet for my liking. Even if their written language was based on individual sounds, rather than characters like the real-world Kanji, it's not illogical to assume they'd have more or less letters for specific sounds that occur frequently in their spoken language -- kinda like how Spanish has that double-l, or the ñ, or accented letters like é, or how French has letters like ç. |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 22:41:11
PDK, maybe this is something you could ask Ed about. Perhaps he's given this some thought. Do we know who designed the runes shown in the FRCS?
Afet. |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 22:37:40
quote:
Either Way, I have been pondering weather to make a set of FR runes into vector-graphics for my maps, after coming across so many cool looking ones in FRA. I've never attempted to make a full Font before, but I might be tempted to give it a go...
I would love to see that. I would certainly use it IMC if it were available.
Afet. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 21:43:45
quote:
Originally posted by Azkyroth
Just realized Shou also uses Draconic, which suggests another potential source for an alphabet. Anything in Oriental Adventures about that? [EDIT2]It appears my recollection of OA being a Forgotten-Realms-World-expansion specifically was erroneous; never mind.
Strangely enough, the alphabet is one of the few things about Kara-Tur that wasn't RW dirivitive. It is a phonetic system - you can see it here -
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/ShouAlphabet.jpg
Those symobols look more Egyptian then Chinese to me, but what do I know?
Anyhow, I would hazard to guess that the original Lung peoples of early Kara-Tur probably did have a massive system of charatcers based on individual words (if they had any writing at all), but the Shou interlopers that arrived through Imaskar probably brought the easier phonetic alphabet with them. In fact, I'm fairly certain the Imaskari themselves would have used a script similar to that employed in Zakhara, although I can't find any example of the written form of Midani ATM.
Perhaps those symbols look slightly Egyptian because they are a hybrid of the Imaskari and Shou script, first used in Anok-Imaskar? I would assume some influences from the recently freed Mulan slaves might have worked their way in.
Either Way, I have been pondering weather to make a set of FR runes into vector-graphics for my maps, after coming across so many cool looking ones in FRA. I've never attempted to make a full Font before, but I might be tempted to give it a go... |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 19:22:29
quote:
And scratching out two dimensional runes would be below a Dragon's dignity.
Afet
And that's a good point, too.
And, I know that this is about the Realms and the Dragons of the Realms, but if you're interested in an interesting take on Draconic literacy, that's just one of many reasons to recommend Naomi Novik's Temeraire books in case you haven't read them. |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 18:16:20
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Just a thought:
Dragons are partly magical themselves, so draconic "runes" might be beyond our comprehension, i.e. 3-dimensional even when you write them on a flat surface ... with the third dimension only perceivable by people with a certain magical skill or who are using detect magic / read magic.
That's a great idea. Something that occurred to me is that the magical nature dragons and their incredible longevity could make a two dimensional, physical written form of draconic pointless.
In the real world, written languages were developed as a method of keeping accounts, and of externalizing thought and cultural memory in a way that was not bound by time or geography. Also, it was developed by a species (humans) with a short life span, a limited memory, no magical capacity and little capacity for rapid travel.
Dragons, superior to humans in all these respects, would not feel the same urgency about keeping accounts, passing on knowledge to the next generation or communicating information over distances. Since Dragons could store and transmit thoughts over time and distance by magical means, why would they bother with developing a script?
And scratching out two dimensional runes would be below a Dragon's dignity.
Afet |
| Azkyroth |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 17:44:37
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Just a thought:
Dragons are partly magical themselves, so draconic "runes" might be beyond our comprehension, i.e. 3-dimensional even when you write them on a flat surface ... with the third dimension only perceivable by people with a certain magical skill or who are using detect magic / read magic.
This is possible but seems surprising, since multiple sources indicate that many arcane magical manuscripts available to humans, and the character sets of several languages, are either written in the Draconic alphabet or one closely derived from it. Right to Left is a definite possibility, though. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 11:19:34
Just a thought:
Dragons are partly magical themselves, so draconic "runes" might be beyond our comprehension, i.e. 3-dimensional even when you write them on a flat surface ... with the third dimension only perceivable by people with a certain magical skill or who are using detect magic / read magic.
A slightly different type of runes is "Narnish" from Babylon 5, which is written from right to left. Some runes are seen here (scroll down a bit). This "simple" type of runes might be the basis for draconic runes ... the 2-dimensional part which all can see.
I would think Halfling script might look like a mixture between egyptian Hieroglyphs and Chinese writing, because they have a "down to earth culture" which probably uses descriptive language rather than one which gives names to objects. |
| Azkyroth |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 10:18:41
quote:
Originally posted by Sian
well ... for dragonic i think it might be more interesting if the Alphabet more mimiced old asian (chinese/japanese) characters where its a [url=ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logograph]Logography[/url] or [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabary]Syllabary[/url]
That was unnerving. I was actually toying with a similar idea (abugida). Is there any particular evidence from the FR that draconic fits into that pattern, though? (It would explain a bit, such as why Netherese is out of use today despite the Low Netherese influence on many cultures - those systems would be relatively cumbersome for trade and for being learned by others used to alphabets per se.
[EDIT]Just realized Shou also uses Draconic, which suggests another potential source for an alphabet. Anything in Oriental Adventures about that? [EDIT2]It appears my recollection of OA being a Forgotten-Realms-World-expansion specifically was erroneous; never mind. |
| Sian |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 09:54:37
well ... for dragonic i think it might be more interesting if the Alphabet more mimiced old asian (chinese/japanese) characters where its a [url=ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logograph]Logography[/url] or [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabary]Syllabary[/url] |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 05:26:12
ABSOLUTELY!
How about you tackle the draconic runes while I give a try for the halfling and gnomish runes? As a starting point, I recommend we mimick espruar/thorass/dethek and provide a rune for each letter of the "english" alphabet... (and perhaps a set of numerals as well...)
Some of the dragon articles had trail/wilderness markings, and urban glyphs; I might borrow heavily from these articles.
Let me know how it goes... |
| Azkyroth |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 02:18:59
Wondering if there's any more information on this topic now, since this post came up in a few google searches I was doing trying to find a set of draconic characters myself. I found only a few sources with actual characters, and none of them seemed to relate to the Forgotten Realsm, so I won't clutter the board up with links (though I'd be happy to forward them, PDK, if you still need them).
I'm not enormously familiar with this sort of thing, but if we can't find a set of draconic characters for Faerun online, and we can confirm that Wizards isn't going to release a set of them next month or something, would it be feasible and/or wise for a few interested people to work on creating one, and would anyone be interested in joining such an effort? (Happy to continue this discussion off-site if the mods prefer). |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 00:53:16
You guys misunderstand me.
Please open your FRCS, and go see the page which *shows* what Espruar, Dethek and Thorass *look like*
My question pertained to what the gnomish, halfling and draconic alphabet *actually look like*, and I am surprised that neither the FRCS, nor the Draconomicon, nor Dragons of Faerun has the draconic alphabet listed/showed/artistically rendered/calligraphied... |
| turox |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 23:26:06
There is info about the Draconic langugage starting on page 28 in the Draconimicon. As the only info I have heard of regarding Dragons in the Realms being that they fell from the sky they must use the same alphabet. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 23:04:01
I'd say dragons, since the FRCS says so, would use draconic alphabet. :) See page 85. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 22:26:17
So, no halfling or gnomish alphabet in the Realms? what about draconic alphabet? I'm fairly certain that dragons don't use Espruar, Dethek or Thorass as a base for their own alphabet... |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 21:03:25
Not exactly on topic, but something I've been thinking about. There was a discussion, maybe a year ago, about the possibility of using non-base 10 number systems for various non-human races, or old empires (like Imaskar). Nothing was ever really decided, but it was mostly agreed that it would just be too much trouble, and wouldn't be very likely.
About a week ago I mentally revisited the topic, and decided that it was fairly unlikely for any of the standard races to develop a number system other than base 10 because they all have 10 fingers, and number systems at their most basic start as counting on your fingers. But by that logic, it's just as likely that creatures with long histories (so as not to simply copy existing number systems) and more or less than 10 fingers would develop other systems. Dragons were the creatures I thought of, since they are often said to have four fingers on each hand, leading to base 8, but most of the Creator Races could also qualify.
To really explore something like this both DM and players would have to be interested in mathematics, but a slimmed down version wouldn't be too hard. For instance, maybe draconic magic isn't much harder to understand than normal magic, except that all the calculations are done in base 8 with no notation, so humans, trying to do it under base 10, keep getting the wrong "answer" and the spells don't work.
Anyway, not really answering your question, but something to think about. |
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