| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:04:53
I was interested in how people have handled higher level parties. Inspired by this quote:quote:
Originally posted by szasstamsgroupie
I just hate the adventures where you start @ high levels. I hate not knowing my character. I also hate hate hate anything that has to do with powergaming. Not every paladin is lucky enough to just trip over a +5 holy sword on a well traveled path when he is only first level. Oh, and at second level he will find the best enchanted armor available. I mean, come on!
I felt like having higher level pc's allowed you to create a more in depth background for your character than starting at 1st lvl. When you start at higher levels it makes it more realistic that more people dont go from lvl1 to 15 in a year. I think this preserves the game world from level inflation.
Power of Faerun focuses more on storytelling etc rather than statistics and powergaming and it is FR's source on high level play. |
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Mkhaiwati |
Posted - 04 Nov 2006 : 22:38:55
quote:
I think the above is a clear case of players not communicating with each other. Did you tell the other player that his style of play was seriously inhibiting yours? If so, this is a prime opportunity for the DM to exercise Rule 0 (the DM is always right): seriously maim or kill that PC in the next encounter where he runs ahead of everyone else to kill everything "just because he can." Fudge die rolls as necessary. The DM must walk a fine line of not being abusively arbitrary such that none of the players have fun, and being just arbitrary enough that it isn't just one player walking all over the other players. If the DM isn't doing this, and you've talked with that DM about it, then you probably have to find a new group. But if you can get along with the other members of your group overall, then you ought to be able to agree on a play style that everyone enjoys regardless of starting PC level.
Well, I won't go into all the details, because there would be way too much. I do like the other players, and get along with them away from the table, but their version of gaming is different than my own. I think that is what is the cause of most gaming dissatisfaction. I want something other than what they want. I wanted more storyline and pc input on the direction of the game, and they wanted more power, creatures to kill and to loot. A good question to ask on starting a high level game is why high level? Because you get to do more and can kill more, or because of the backgrounds?
Unfortunately, the GM was also one of the power players. That is why going to the player or gm wasn't a good option. I wanted something other than what they (the dominate two members) wanted. There were several sessions that I could cast he same spell that someone else did, but knew it didn't work the way they had it operate which is why I never cast it to begin with. An example was a character casting Gust of Wind in front of him and using it to go down a corridor that twisted and turned and using it to propel a poisonous gas in front of him. I had to point out it did not move, the gust was stationary. I had to "fact-check" several times a session the same person's spells, feats, and skills to correct the person. I hate being a rules-lawyer, and I am fairly easy going on things, but at some point I just got tired of the "let us slip this by" routine. If I had known we could interpret the rules as we wanted to, I would have been more prepared for the High fantasy version of Calvinball 
Another case in point was the interpretation of the rules in another setting called Midnight. the gm swore that the players could cast spells of the same level as their character class. A ninth level caster could cast Wish? But, again, I was told that was how the rules were stated in the book and the gm had also asked the designers on their website about it.
In the Fr game that lasted longest (and the one mentioned in my first post), the game started out as a co-gm game between three players; they each would have a character and would alternate gm between adventures. It started shortly after 3.5 came out, but they decided to make it strictly 3.0. One of the gms had a character that was going for a prestige class that was only found in 3.5. After he tried to switch that, the other two gms decided that was no good, they had to stay 3.0. That was a big arguement, and the one who tried the 3.5 class was kinda upset he had to change some of his choices. Later, one of the other gms dropped from the group, and the other one just couldn't get his act together, so the gm who tried the 3.5 classs took over and declared he was the solo gm, and it would be 3.5 from then on, and his pc took that class and retroactively made everything fit 3.5. And then later we had the examples in my first post. The gm was part of the problem also, so just saying that I had a problem with the first player wasn't any good since they also tended to back each other up.
I won't go into more, but if you want, I can pm more and better stories. |
| Lady Morbannaon |
Posted - 04 Nov 2006 : 15:57:04
Well I think Raelan said everything I was going to say. In all of the campaigns i've run no mater what level the characters are starting at I wont allow game play before the characters all have a fleshed out history that we are both happy with, the higher the level the more complex the history to explain all the exp gained etc.
If we are starting at a higher level then normal (10+) I monitor the magic items they start with and no one is allowed any unless they can explain to me why they have that particular item, if i think it's too powerful I will work with them to get something else that they are happy with.
I work with the person every step of the way through their character creation making sure they are aware of what each decision means to that character and helping them work it into their histories etc. Although by some in the group it does seem to be a bit of a chore (we do have a couple of power gamers but they are slowly realising the good behind roleplaying rather then fighting all the time), I think on the whole it really helps the game and stops the whole thing from running away out of control.
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| Raelan |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 14:02:30
I've played in and run a large number of high- to VERY high-level games. I have a mage who I started playing at 1st level in 2nd Edition before the Players' Option books came out, and have migrated through every edition since. He's now 28th level, and I still enjoy playing him (on those occasions I can find a DM capable of and willing to run adventures for a character of that level).
With all of this experience, I can offer the following advice in regards to allowing characters to start at high level:
First, be draconian in regards to allowing class/race combinations. Some are just ridiculously abusive and should be stomped out before they even get into the game; with enough levels (or ECL) to work with, it's not hard for game-breaking combinations to make it into the game, especially if you allow prestige classes from pretty much any canon source. Be up front with your players about this - tell them that any class combination should be vetted by you, first, and not to take it personally if you disallow it for game balance purposes. The same goes for races.
Second, be wary of the same problem in regards to magical items. Tell the players what they can and can't have and stand your ground. In regards to specific magical items, deny outright any item that grants wishes, and also limit attribute-enhancing tomes. For the latter, I generally allow characters to purchase one and only one +5 tome with their starting wealth. They can purchase as many +1 or +2 tomes as they want, but placing a limit on anything higher helps prevent the creation of a character whose every stat is above 20. In a similar vein, limit the number of attribute-enhancing garments to two or three at start to prevent the same thing from happening.
Third, and I cannot stress this enough, advise the players that they MUST flesh out their characters. They need to state where their characters grew up, who their families are, what caused them to become adventurers, and what their deeds have been. On top of this, have the players tell you their characters' goals and motivations and pay close attention their responses.
This part is important, because high level play is all about the characters. High level characters are powerful enough that it's just not reasonable to try to force them down a set, linear adventure path anymore - the players expect--and rightly so--that their characters have advanced to a point where they can choose their own destiny (however, this can be taken too far, a fact that I will address shortly).
High level play requires a great ability to improvise on the fly if you're the DM. In allowing the players to choose their own course, you often cannot predict what they will do. Moreover, the players generally set and pursue their own goals, so you will need to be able to come up with adventures regarding those goals on the spot if a character decides to pursue them. This is where the persistent world of the Forgotten Realms truly shines, because there's so much background detail that you often have a good base of information to work from.
For instance, after several encounters with Luskanite raiders on the high seas, the characters may become fed up and decide to do something drastic to curtail Luskan's piratical efforts. They may decide to sneak into Luskan and torch the city's naval docks, they may decide to attempt to capture the High Captains, they may even try to infiltrate the Arcane Brotherhood and destroy it from within. Whatever the players decide to do, however, you will need to be ready to come up with improvised encounters and plotlines regarding it; simply curb-checking the players and preventing them from attempting to follow their characters' goals won't fly in a high-level game (and generally isn't much appreciated in low-level games, either).
Okay, so you're the DM and all of the players are 22nd level and powerhouses on an individual level, not to mention as a group. How do you deal with this?
First, realize that not every encounter should be against an uber-villain. Remember that there aren't so many epic level NPCs out there that the characters will run into them evey couple of minutes. If your PCs run into liches, wyrms, balors, etc. every few seconds, it will become hard for them (and you) to suspend their disbelief.
Instead, you'll find encounters with large numbers of lower-level NPCs and critters to be both useful and believable. These encounters wear down the party's resources and can, when done properly, make fights that would normally be a snap for a high level party quite challenging - when you're low on hitpoints and spells, that 15th level priest of Bane and his acolytes suddenly become much more of a threat to your 22nd level party than they would normally be.
Don't get me wrong, occasional uber-villain encounters are a good thing, but avoid giving into the temptation to use them constantly just because you can; uber-villains didn't get to be powers by exposing themselves to danger needlessly. They often work through minions and summoned creatures, only pouncing once their servitors have sufficiently weakened their opposition.
Another important item for high-level play is to use recurring themes. Use persistent villains that pop up time and again to harass the party's efforts; have acquaintances show up unexpectedly on occasion. In short, immersion is the key. In fact, immersion and roleplaying are actually MORE important for high level games than they are for low-level games. While this would seem a contradiction, because the common opinion is that more stats = less roleplay, that's not the case. High level characters have more of an impact on the world, and to dismiss this out of hand is to cheat your players of the benefits of having a character of that level in the first place.
In a similar vein, occasionally throw out plot hooks that involve people and incidents from the characters' pasts. They don't live in a vacuum, and their actions are bound to have had effects that come back to them later in life.
However, with all of this said, one problem remains: rampant abuse by high level characters. Some players think that being high level is a ticket to go on a rampage and loot, rape, murder, and kill because no one can stop them. Like it or not, this WILL happen if you have the wrong people in your game.
There are several ways of dealing with this. You may be tempted just to kill off the player's character instantly, or to have ridiculously powerful NPCs show up immediately to stop the runaway PC. For the latter, this is only plausible if said NPCs live in the area normally. If they do not, it's best to wait. Let the character kill off the sheriff and all of the town elders in the hamlet, since that hamlet isn't likely to have anyone powerful enough to stop him. However, the character will find, upon reaching Waterdeep, that the authorities and local adventurers would like to have a "talk" with him. It seems that someone witnessed his actions and escaped to spread the word. The character's good name will be blacklisted from Waterdeep to Silverymoon to Baldur's Gate, and the city authorities won't allow him entrance; in fact, they may even want to clap him in irons (and these cities have the power to actually DO it). In short, use in-game consequences of a realistic sort to resolve runaway players. Out-of-game consequences (such as killing off the character or kicking the player from the group) should only be used as a last resort.
In summation, the keys to running a high-level game are as follows:
* Always vet your players class combos and magical item choices
* Make the players fully flesh out their characters before the game starts
* Be ready to improvise
* Allow the players to set their own goals
* Focus your plotlines on things of importance to the characters' motivations and past history
* Use many lower-level encounters to wear down the party's resources
* Use recurring themes
* Curb rampant abuse with in-character consequences
Anyway, I'm half asleep, so I don't know how coherent the preceeding rant has been. Hopefully you folks will find it helpful. :) |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 11:29:32
Allright fellow scribes. To through my opinion at you, here it comes:
I do not mind to start at high levels as long as the creation is closely observed by a responsable DM. Also if the group as a whole agrees to start at higher levels than why not. The game is there to be played for all gamers to enjoy themselves. However, my personal favorite it is not. I rather play a character from the very start.
Another reason why I would rather discourage unexperienced d&d players from starting with level 15+ charcters is that the PCs have so many options and ablilities at such high levels that an unexperinced player can never ever take full advantage of them, leading to a very quick deaths most certainly as the Challanges they face will likewise be CR 15+ and unforgiving as well.
>For experienced players however, starting at high levels could be an option to check out other classes at high levels, cause there is not enough time to play all classes 1st to high levels.
To say a little bit about DMs in such a situation: I am dming a high level group right now (Lvl 15+) and there is so much more work to do to create a gaming session. So all dms out there - beware!  |
| wildmage |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 22:36:06
I have to wonder to what degree the typical "power-gaming group" where everyone totally focuses on min/maxing just have never experienced the fun of a more role-playing oriented game? They may have come to D&D after playing computer "RPGs" and they only get the aspects that involve leveling up and getting lots of items. Maybe they just don't know what else is out there.
I think open communication between the DM and all players is the key. If one player prefers substantially more role-playing, maybe that player can let the other players and DM know. He/she can demonstrate how fun it can be to become your character in all situations (both combat and non-combat) rather than watch your character from the 3rd person get tons of items and slay nasty beasts a la the Diablo computer "RPG".
On the one hand, starting a campaign at high levels (over 10th level) probably complicates the game since players can do more in combat. However, if the players of those characters accept that their character should not be "perfect," that he/she can still make mistakes at 15th, 18th, or 25th level, then those players can roll with the punches of whatever the DM decides to run rather than dictate to the DM and other players how every encounter "should" go.
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati:
"Another had a tiefling starting at about 17th level, I think a straight fighter. He had no equipment, he spent all his money on books for increasing stats. So the GM gave him an awesome sword that also had ghost touch (kinda neat since we were chasing after undead for the next four + sessions.) His stats were a 26 Dex, a 20-something intelligence (mine was 20, and his was higher), a mininum 20 Wisdom (he had the feat blind sight which requires a 20 Wis in addition to a bunch of feats), and his "sucky" stat was Strength at 18. Including all the feats he had, which are possible since he was a fighter, it was silly. He moved before everyone in the party, and the encounters were usually against one or two creatures at a time, with the result that I was attacked but never did any return damage for 3 straight sessions. I did nothing for three weeks except watch him kill everything because he moved ahead of everyone. After considering that I would never gain those lost 3 weekends, I quit."
I think the above is a clear case of players not communicating with each other. Did you tell the other player that his style of play was seriously inhibiting yours? If so, this is a prime opportunity for the DM to exercise Rule 0 (the DM is always right): seriously maim or kill that PC in the next encounter where he runs ahead of everyone else to kill everything "just because he can." Fudge die rolls as necessary. The DM must walk a fine line of not being abusively arbitrary such that none of the players have fun, and being just arbitrary enough that it isn't just one player walking all over the other players. If the DM isn't doing this, and you've talked with that DM about it, then you probably have to find a new group. But if you can get along with the other members of your group overall, then you ought to be able to agree on a play style that everyone enjoys regardless of starting PC level. |
| Reefy |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 01:00:25
I've never played or DMed a high level campaign before (until now, anyway). I generally like to start with low level characters, usually at first, though I have no objections to starting a bit higher (third maybe). To me the most fun levels to play (and DM for) are between about four and nine, when the party can do things but aren't ultra powerful.
As for adding depth to character's history and personality, this can be further developed beforehand if you start higher, but it's perhaps not quite the same as playing from first level. On the other hand, starting higher does give you a few more options in my opinion - you can have records of your previous adventures, contacts etc.
The highest level my longest running campaign got to was about ten or eleven, before they walked foolishly into a white dragon's lair... |
| Conlon |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:38:43
quote:
Originally posted by Alediran
I'n my experience, the best lvls to start are betwen 4th and 6th, they give you a little flexibility in what character you want to play, but it still doesn't make you too powerfull. If you like special RP when a character enters a PrC lvl 4th is better.
I agree.
The campaign I'm presently running had the characters start at 5th level. This enabled the players to envision their starting character as valuable, skilled people who have already figured out who they are and in what direction they are going. However, being only 5 levels in, there are still plenty of options available, including prestige classes, etc.
I know that the players also enjoyed building up cool backgrounds for the characters beyond "he is a squire to the local knight/ acolyte at the temple/ sorcerer's apprentice/ street thief" stuff. The characters, although far from being heroes or legends, have already laid the groundwork and can now fight other things besides goblins, spiders, skeletons and orcs. Now they get to fight loads of orcs! |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 07:27:04
Hello Beirnadri,
My current Realms Campaign started at the 1st level of play and has progressed to the point where the characters range in level from 19 to 22.
In my experience with this campaign I’ve found that the players explored (and continue to explore) both the mechanics of the game and the backgrounds of their characters. They also developed strong roleplaying personalities for their characters. I’ve seen that they enjoy mixing and matching the mechanics of the game with their character themes and play style.
I believe that this group of players (as well as just about any other group) would naturally focus on the build of their new characters, were they to decide to start a campaign at mid or high levels of play. There’s just no getting around it, since as a player you have to make 10 - 15 levels worth of character build decisions on the spot.
For a DM in this situation, it’s a good idea to figure out right away what kind of game is being run. Is it a quick one shot adventure? Or will it be just 3-5 levels worth of high level play (say to finish off the last third of City of the Spider Queen) or Epic play (maybe try Into The Storm Lord’s Keep from Dungeon Magazine)? Or maybe just start at high level and see how long it goes?
And if it’s this last (open ended), how much will character background really matter to the players?
I believe a DM needs to gauge the player’s wants, realize that regardless of what he/she as DM desires the players are naturally going to focus on the mechanics of their PCs (until they get their heads around them) before much else, and at that point decide how much background and true roleplaying there should be (this last impacted by whether the players tend to cast spell for answers, or prefer to seek NPCs and interact to learn what they need to know, during the course of the adventure).
J. Grenemyer
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| Mkhaiwati |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 05:55:32
I have been in two games that started the players in the 15+ level range, and another that some players joined in at about 17th level in a longer established campaign, and all three were low points of the game. It was always "let us see what we can build" as opposed to the "what kind of background I can create" scene. In every case the backgrounds were thrown to the wayside in favor of the hacking and slashing.
I think the 17th level psion with the vow of poverty was a bit much. Considering he started at 17th level, and did not have to work up, it was really a lot of bonuses. Combined with allowing every 3.x book in existence allowed for people trying out different prestige classes/feat combos/magic items/spells and everything else, to create the biggest and baddest pc. One guy had five different characters he made, just to see how tough he could make them.
Another had a tiefling starting at about 17th level, I think a straight fighter. He had no equipment, he spent all his money on books for increasing stats. So the GM gave him an awesome sword that also had ghost touch (kinda neat since we were chasing after undead for the next four + sessions.) His stats were a 26 Dex, a 20-something intelligence (mine was 20, and his was higher), a mininum 20 Wisdom (he had the feat blind sight which requires a 20 Wis in addition to a bunch of feats), and his "sucky" stat was Strength at 18. Including all the feats he had, which are possible since he was a fighter, it was silly. He moved before everyone in the party, and the encounters were usually against one or two creatures at a time, with the result that I was attacked but never did any return damage for 3 straight sessions. I did nothing for three weeks except watch him kill everything because he moved ahead of everyone. After considering that I would never gain those lost 3 weekends, I quit.
I discovered I did not fit the group, which is the bottom line. Their way of gaming was different than my own. I can see this in other threads when others post something critical about their groups, too. Sometimes, if you want something different in the game than what others want, you need to cut loose and hunt for some other group. Nothing wrong with power gaming, but it just isn't me.
I personally would start at about 3rd level, that way if a character wants a race with a level adjustment, they can fit it in. It also helps give time to the characters for why they are in the same place at the same time when they may be from very different parts of Faerun. |
| Vainelus |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 03:32:48
in the past I have started all my campaigns at 1st level. However, I could see starting a campaign some where between 2-5. After all, it is always a shame when a player writes a 3-4 page back story for his 4 hp mage and dies to an arrow in the first battle. Starting 10+, often leads to characters with little development and lots of power tricks. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 21:21:37
I have bad experience ...with just starting at high level. But i agrea with Faramicos |
| szasstamsgroupie |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 20:49:42
When you start at higher levels it makes it more realistic that more people dont go from lvl1 to 15 in a year. I think this preserves the game world from level inflation.
I would have to agree with you on that point. I just assume in my own head (regardless of what the tally of actual days is) that it took years to get higher. I mean, I have one character who was a loser barmaid who made it to level six in a matter of 3 months. That really is unrealistic. I consider myself (as a person) a level 0 character, and I know I couldn't master a longsword that I had never used in a matter of 3 months. The way DM did it was realistic, however. He made me meet people who tutored me in the art of swordplay before I learned. |
| Faramicos |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 20:46:46
That would be a solution i could accept... 4th is still low enough to get a chance to shape your character and mold it after your ideas during the following levels. |
| Alediran |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 17:12:57
I'n my experience, the best lvls to start are betwen 4th and 6th, they give you a little flexibility in what character you want to play, but it still doesn't make you too powerfull. If you like special RP when a character enters a PrC lvl 4th is better. |
| Faramicos |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:25:45
I have nothing against high level campaigns. As long as they began from scratch and the players have had the opportunity to get to know their characters. I have tried starting at level 15 (2nd edition) and playing ahigh level campaign. It was onw of the worst RPG experiences i have ever had. I didnt know the full background of my character and i couldnt enjoy the view of climbing another level beacause it would require more XP than i could comprehend. Seeing my character develop and advance in level of power is one of the many enjoynments i like when playing D&D. All in all a bad experience with high level campaigns that start out as high level... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:15:57
I've never had that problem really because I don't use the standard exp for 3/3.5. My email games the players are only 2nd level and they've been a member of their division of the merc company for about a month. It'll probably take them awhile longer to get to 3.
For my table top games, I still never had that problem. My last 2e game the players got to/around 10th level but years past while they were adventuring because at times we just skipped ahead in the roll of years, since they learned skills from people, had families, worked on their keeps/city, etc.
I've never really had a game go to the high teens. And I can get backgrounds just as much for lower level PC's as I can for high level PC's because I base backgrounds more on the races then on the levels. An elf could still adventure for a decade but that is still only a blink of time for him and he's been alive for 100 to 200 years before that, so he still has a lot of background. |
| Silvanus79 |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 16:11:52
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
I was interested in how people have handled higher level parties. Inspired by this quote:quote:
Originally posted by szasstamsgroupie
I just hate the adventures where you start @ high levels. I hate not knowing my character. I also hate hate hate anything that has to do with powergaming. Not every paladin is lucky enough to just trip over a +5 holy sword on a well traveled path when he is only first level. Oh, and at second level he will find the best enchanted armor available. I mean, come on!
I think she's talking about the "purchasing" of magical items without having a backstory. I hate to admit it, but those of us here are a serious minority. We enjoy the aspect of character creation that lets us design a good backstory. Unfortunately, most players that I know would rather just buy that +5 holy sword for their paladin and run out and slay things. I've played with a lot of power gamers, even done a little power gaming myself, and believe me when I say it's more common than true roleplaying. In fact, I have personally had the experience of rolling up a high level character and coming up with four pages of history, only to have the DM shove it in his folder, unread, and throw the party into Undermountain for a nine hour session of "I open the door, what do we see?"
The nice thing is, I now have a wonderful player in my group who would rather have the story than the dice rolling. We spend more time without dice than with them!!! 
I felt like having higher level pc's allowed you to create a more in depth background for your character than starting at 1st lvl. When you start at higher levels it makes it more realistic that more people dont go from lvl1 to 15 in a year. I think this preserves the game world from level inflation.
Power of Faerun focuses more on storytelling etc rather than statistics and powergaming and it is FR's source on high level play.
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