| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bladedancer |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 16:41:49
I was wondering if anyone had some ideas for a good No. 2 to for the BBEG of my Menzoberranzan campaign. The main opponent is a renegade Yolchol who has left the service of Lolth and has switched sides to her son Vhaerun. Although the pc's won't find out who exactly is the real enemy until they are 10-12 level currently they are 5th-6th.
Also I would like to know your thoughts on this concept. During Lolth's silence after his fight with his father Selvetarm begins to rethink his blind devotion to Spider Queen. He realizes eventually he will drain him dry as a spider does to it's prey. He has begun to send messages to his clergy to start acting more independently from the clergy of Lolth. Hoping he will be able to gain enough power to break away from his grandmother's stranglehold on him. He also has feelers out to other powers to ally with for mutual protection from the wrath of Lolth when he eventually betrays her to gain his freedom. The reason I might be doing this is for a plot hook for the Cleric of Selvetarm in the group. |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 02:12:16
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
You're entitled to interpret the sources anyway you see fit.
I withdraw from the argument.
Fair enough.
It's one of my pet interests, is all. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 07:17:40
You're entitled to interpret the sources anyway you see fit.
I withdraw from the argument. |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 19:43:45
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
But Eryndlyn is evidently an exception. There's a temple hierarchy there, ergo he has priests there
I disagree, because: Demihuman Deities, page 35:
'A few drow in Eryndlyn began to worship Selvetarm in his own right. This displeased Lolth's clergy immensely, and the blasphemers were driven...into exile.'
Why would the Lolthites drive away the worshippers of Selvetarm but keep the clerics?
They could have driven away the ones who worshipped him independently, as a god "in his own right," instead of as an underling of Lolth with the understanding that they're ultimately paying homage to her.
Under Holy Days/Important Ceremonies:quote:
Selvetarm's faithful are expected to observe the rituals of Lolth, as directed by her priests (Those who have recently emigrated from Eryndlyn have abandoned this practice...)
And Day-to-Day Activities: quote:
... the teachings of the faith place little emphasis on tactics or strategy and thus few members of Selvetarm's clergy achieve a high military rank.
He is definitely worshipped in Eryndlyn, and there are clergy about in at least one settlement. They may or may not be secretive about it - they certainly aren't discreet about revering him, what with screaming his name all over the place - but they're still there and it would seem most of them pretty much toe the line so far as Lolth is concerned.
quote:
Yes, there was a temple hierarchy but according to the quote from Demihuman Deities I doubt it remains.
I suppose you could argue a case for it being in the past tense, but from the wording it could just as easily be present tense. And what they didn't say is "in Eryndlyn until all the priests were thrown out or went into hiding..."
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Well, if it's not clear then wouldn't it be a matter of "I don't think it would work, because I think such-and-such is the case" rather than "It wouldn't work, because I think such-and-such is the case"? Or have I tripped over an even bigger misunderstanding than I thought?
I'm not entirely sure I understand your question here.
Well, if the situation isn't clear then a personal judgment of the situation shouldn't be stated as fact. That may not be what you intended by "it wouldn't work," but that's the impression I got.
quote:
For my part, I don't think that any Lolthite city in the Underdark tolerates a clergy that serves another drow deity. I'm not saying that these cities don't have other clergies but I am confident that they are hidden and secret.
Being hidden, though, would likely involve going through the motions of following Lolth.
quote:
As regards Eryndlyn, this is a city that is divided between its three dominant faiths. And, I believe, it is a city that acts like three seperate civic entities - each with its civic faith.
I don't disagree with that - I've even described it previously as three cities with the same name. I just believe Selvetarm's following is considered a fairly popular adjunct to one of them.
quote:
To return to the original question of Selvetarm ordering his clergy to start acting more independently from the clergy of Lolth. I think they are already acting independently on account of the intolerance that the Lolthites have for other faiths. Therefore, it is somewhat redundant to have the deity order his clergy to break away from Lolth's clergy because his clergy would have developed in seclusion from the Lolthites in the first place.
Then it's not a matter of "it wouldn't work" so much as a matter of "they're already doing that." I also find the phrasing you used in your original post confusing in that regard. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 10:08:07
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
But Eryndlyn is evidently an exception. There's a temple hierarchy there, ergo he has priests there
I disagree, because: Demihuman Deities, page 35:
'A few drow in Eryndlyn began to worship Selvetarm in his own right. This displeased Lolth's clergy immensely, and the blasphemers were driven...into exile.'
Why would the Lolthites drive away the worshippers of Selvetarm but keep the clerics? Yes, there was a temple hierarchy but according to the quote from Demihuman Deities I doubt it remains.
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Well, if it's not clear then wouldn't it be a matter of "I don't think it would work, because I think such-and-such is the case" rather than "It wouldn't work, because I think such-and-such is the case"? Or have I tripped over an even bigger misunderstanding than I thought?
I'm not entirely sure I understand your question here. For my part, I don't think that any Lolthite city in the Underdark tolerates a clergy that serves another drow deity. I'm not saying that these cities don't have other clergies but I am confident that they are hidden and secret. As regards Eryndlyn, this is a city that is divided between its three dominant faiths. And, I believe, it is a city that acts like three seperate civic entities - each with its civic faith.
To return to the original question of Selvetarm ordering his clergy to start acting more independently from the clergy of Lolth. I think they are already acting independently on account of the intolerance that the Lolthites have for other faiths. Therefore, it is somewhat redundant to have the deity order his clergy to break away from Lolth's clergy because his clergy would have developed in seclusion from the Lolthites in the first place. |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 23:48:33
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
my impression was that the rampage actually boosted the popularity of both gods,
Whereas the impression I gained was that the Lolthites used the appearance of one of Lolth's most powerful servants, i.e. Selvetarm as evidence of her wishes for a monotheisitc Eryndlyn.
Still, what power her faction gained in Eryndlyn seems to be mainly through Selvetarm - the new military order's named after him, and so on. I don't think it's impossible that some drow might prefer the "middleman," especially if he was still granting spells during the Silence.
quote:
I'm not disputing that Selvetarm has a clergy but I don't think his clergy would be openly active in a Lolthite city - because of Lolth's dogma. If that's changed since The Silence and I'm unaware of it please post the reference here. :)
I'm afraid I've misunderstood you in some way. I took your previous post to mean something to the effect that if Selvetarm had any clerics then Lolth would promptly have them snuffed or similar. If clergy exists, even if it's not "openly active," what excludes the possibility of them being eventually directed to break away? I suppose Lolth would have them snuffed in that case as well - but her priestesses would have to catch them first.
True, in most Lolthian cities Selvetarm likely wouldn't have any priests because most drow think he's only a superpowered tanar'ri. But Eryndlyn is evidently an exception. There's a temple hierarchy there, ergo he has priests there - even if his faith is forcibly Superglued to Lolth's.
quote:
The problem is that the relationship between Lolth's clergy and Selvetarm's clergy isn't made clear and the appearance of the Drow Judicator class muddies the waters further. (As a book, Underdark tended to trample on its sources more then reference them.) Until that relationship is made clear and the full ramifications of Lolth's most recent transformation are made clear I'll draw my conclusions from the body of current knowledge.
Well, if it's not clear then wouldn't it be a matter of "I don't think it would work, because I think such-and-such is the case" rather than "It wouldn't work, because I think such-and-such is the case"? Or have I tripped over an even bigger misunderstanding than I thought? |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 05:34:33
my impression was that the rampage actually boosted the popularity of both gods,
Whereas the impression I gained was that the Lolthites used the appearance of one of Lolth's most powerful servants, i.e. Selvetarm as evidence of her wishes for a monotheisitc Eryndlyn.
I'm not disputing that Selvetarm has a clergy but I don't think his clergy would be openly active in a Lolthite city - because of Lolth's dogma. If that's changed since The Silence and I'm unaware of it please post the reference here. :)
The problem is that the relationship between Lolth's clergy and Selvetarm's clergy isn't made clear and the appearance of the Drow Judicator class muddies the waters further. (As a book, Underdark tended to trample on its sources more then reference them.) Until that relationship is made clear and the full ramifications of Lolth's most recent transformation are made clear I'll draw my conclusions from the body of current knowledge. |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 17:22:28
Funny, I have a story (and a follow-up in the works) published on other sites dealing with a similar course of events in regards to Selvetarm. The idea is just that inherently intriguing, I suppose.
Of course, I'm obviously not objective - but I can say it sounds interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
He has begun to send messages to his clergy to start acting more independently from the clergy of Lolth.
I'm sorry but this wouldn't work because the Selvetarmite clerics would be killed by the Lolthite clerics - the males especially. The Lolthite faith doesn't allow for the worship of other deities, especially rival drow deities. (More's the pity!)
How I view Selvetarm's role in the Lolthite faith is as a 'saint' of that religion. Selvetarm is the archetypal drow male but the entity is not worshipped as a deity.
If I recall correctly, in Demihuman Deities under the entry for Selvetarm there is a section of text that talks about the Lolthites of Eryndlyn killing Selvetarmites after the Time of Troubles. Their cause wasn't helped by Selvetarm's avatar rampaging around Eryndlyn during that crisis.
Actually, my impression was that the rampage actually boosted the popularity of both gods, enough so that the followers of Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur ended up allying out of necessity to deal with their increased power.
Selvetarm does have a clergy - he has a temple hierarchy in Eryndlyn (Demihuman Deities gives sample titles), and the drow judicator prestige class requires spellcasting ability - any spellcasting ability. Also, he's described as being worshipped "particularly" in Eryndlyn, Undermountain (though it seems that lot has been written off and posthumously transformed from exiles to "scouts") and the Spider Swamp (via puppeting Zanassu's corpse), which doesn't bar the possibility of some independents wandering around - there were certainly a few in the Forest of Mir. From his followers in Undermountain and the Spider Swamp, it can be seen that he doesn't particularly object to not taking Lolth as part of the package.
And I do think the Silence has the potential to shake things up a bit there since barring unseen circumstances he'd still be granting spells, and even if his clergy serves the priestesses of Lolth they'd probably take advantage of that.
As for further thoughts... here's a bit pretty much cribbed from my story notes, which may or may not work for you, but maybe it will help.
Since Lolth is even more powerful at present, I imagine he doesn't actually expect any breakaway to work. He advises his faithful to die fighting against overwhelming odds, and this could be an attempt to do the same and go out on his own terms instead of being "drained dry" or the like. In this case Selvetarm wouldn't care that the Lolthians would immediately turn on his followers - who needs followers when you're dead? What matters is that they do some damage in the process.
The main problem, then, would be who they'd be inclined to side with - and after the events of both the Time of Troubles and the Silence, this wouldn't be such a definite proposition in Eryndlyn. Who actually visited the city and wreaked bloody havoc/granted spells/generally supported his followers at the time, you see? Of course, there would be a number of drow who worship him only so far as he's Champion of Lolth, or else didn't feel like dying just yet, and they'd jump ship. It would be quite a task sorting out traitors, but the Lolthians would have the same problem.
So far as allies... he already has Garagos, but it's doubtful how much that can really do considering Garagos is a demigod and his power is mainly on the surface.
Vhaeraun would be annoyed, to say the least, about events during the Silence, but he'd have to consider who he'd like to screw over more in the present situation - not to mention figuring in the fringe benefit of rubbing it in Selvetarm's face. The Vhaeraunites in Eryndlyn, particularly if they drag the Ghaunadan with them, could go some way toward evening out the conflict.
Eilistraee, meanwhile, would likely be giving redemption the old college try.
Given this scenario, he probably wouldn't be blatantly telling his clergy to "act more independently" - and certainly not that his days are numbered - but quietly prepping them. Say reminders as to whose dogma they follow and whose spells they receive, and pertinent parts of that dogma, so that when everything goes to Baator in a handbasket they're not too shocked to react. He's preparing to go out with a bang.
But then he doesn't go out - and thereby hangs a tale.
Hope some of that's useful. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:56:53
quote:
Sort of like the Red Wizards of Thay!
True,
But without the shaved heads or the tattoos. (Which makes the Red Wizards sound like the rivvet-heads of the Realms. Time to stop this particular train of thought I feel!) |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 09:43:11
quote:
Very true. Their approach is:
1. Develop a really good plan
2. Then stab each other in the back
3. Repeat
Sort of like the Red Wizards of Thay! |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 09:26:18
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
If the Drow were likely to come together so much for the sake of the 'greater good,' they probably wouldn't have been made the Anti-Seldarine in the first place. ;)
Very true. Their approach is:
1. Develop a really good plan
2. Then stab each other in the back
3. Repeat |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:43:12
quote:
I've always sort of hoped that Lolth would set up the Anti-Seldarine as a 'Quellar Illythiiri.' She'd be Matron, Kiaransalee - elder daughter, Vhaeraun - First Son and Selvetarm - Weapon's Master. It really does depend on how much she wants to get back at Corellon. And maybe many of the other drow deities wouldn't agree to formally acknowledging her as their queen; then again as Jezz says in Final Gate they are a practical race.
Of course, it'll never happen much like Vhaeraun won't become CN and occupy the middle ground between his sister and his mother. But these are some of the thoughts that I use to keep me warm at night.
If the Drow were likely to come together so much for the sake of the 'greater good,' they probably wouldn't have been made the Anti-Seldarine in the first place. ;) |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:36:23
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
maybe in her Greater Goddess role now she may wise up as she could (and probably does) siphon off some of Selvetarm's power to herself (like a good female drow would do to their male servant) and
her drow children's power was weakened in the Underdark due to the Silence and they need the reinforcements (holy male orders serving the female clergy)
I've always sort of hoped that Lolth would set up the Anti-Seldarine as a 'Quellar Illythiiri.' She'd be Matron, Kiaransalee - elder daughter, Vhaeraun - First Son and Selvetarm - Weapon's Master. It really does depend on how much she wants to get back at Corellon. And maybe many of the other drow deities wouldn't agree to formally acknowledging her as their queen; then again as Jezz says in Final Gate they are a practical race.
Of course, it'll never happen much like Vhaeraun won't become CN and occupy the middle ground between his sister and his mother. But these are some of the thoughts that I use to keep me warm at night. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 19:48:36
quote:
Originally posted by Bladedancer
I was wondering if anyone had some ideas for a good No. 2 to for the BBEG of my Menzoberranzan campaign. The main opponent is a renegade Yolchol who has left the service of Lolth and has switched sides to her son Vhaerun. Although the pc's won't find out who exactly is the real enemy until they are 10-12 level currently they are 5th-6th.
maybe one of those 1/2 shadow dragons? a renegade out for revenge? Or maybe an agent of the Phaerimm...so after your Yolchol adventure you can confront the Phaerimm directly? |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 19:43:27
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I'm home from work now so I can give you those references:
Menzoberranzan Boxed Set, Book 1, page 13:
'There is no true god or goddess other than Lloth (sic).'
'Ritual worship of any power other than Lloth is forbidden...drow worshippers (of another power) are slain.'
Demihuman Deities, page 35:
'A few drow in Eryndlyn began to worship Selvetarm in his own right. This displeased Lolth's clergy immensely, and the blasphemers were driven...into exile.'
Faiths and Pantheons, page 41, Lolth's dogma:
'Convert or destroy nonbeleiver drow.'
I agree with you, but all of that is pre-Silence dogma from Lolth...
maybe in her Greater Goddess role now she may wise up as she could (and probably does) siphon off some of Selvetarm's power to herself (like a good female drow would do to their male servant) and
her drow children's power was weakened in the Underdark due to the Silence and they need the reinforcements (holy male orders serving the female clergy) |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 19:06:30
I'm home from work now so I can give you those references:
Menzoberranzan Boxed Set, Book 1, page 13:
'There is no true god or goddess other than Lloth (sic).'
'Ritual worship of any power other than Lloth is forbidden...drow worshippers (of another power) are slain.'
Demihuman Deities, page 35:
'A few drow in Eryndlyn began to worship Selvetarm in his own right. This displeased Lolth's clergy immensely, and the blasphemers were driven...into exile.'
Faiths and Pantheons, page 41, Lolth's dogma:
'Convert or destroy nonbeleiver drow.' |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 17:13:49
quote:
He has begun to send messages to his clergy to start acting more independently from the clergy of Lolth.
I'm sorry but this wouldn't work because the Selvetarmite clerics would be killed by the Lolthite clerics - the males especially. The Lolthite faith doesn't allow for the worship of other deities, especially rival drow deities. (More's the pity!)
How I view Selvetarm's role in the Lolthite faith is as a 'saint' of that religion. Selvetarm is the archetypal drow male but the entity is not worshipped as a deity.
If I recall correctly, in Demihuman Deities under the entry for Selvetarm there is a section of text that talks about the Lolthites of Eryndlyn killing Selvetarmites after the Time of Troubles. Their cause wasn't helped by Selvetarm's avatar rampaging around Eryndlyn during that crisis.
In those drow cities, where Lolth is worshipped Selvetarm isn't worshipped as a deity. That's my understanding of it, which I formed by reading the sourcebooks. The novels of The War of the Spider Queen blur that boundary quite a bit but Faiths and Pantheons, Demihuman Deities and the Menzoberranzan Boxed Set make it clear that Lolth does not tolerate any drow to worship another deity. |
| Bladedancer |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 17:07:45
It is set a few years after the silence. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 16:49:30
is your game before, during or after the Silence?
I don't think Selvetarm would do that...I think he has made himself even more useful to Lolth during the Silence, that the benifit of strengthening his clergy is that Lolth then gains the hearts of the male drow that she spurns without losing face to the female clergy (Selvetarm becomes the the archtype god of male drow thast serve the females) and Selvetarm is also a useful tool for Lolth to use to harness the dissatisfied male drow faith away from Vhaerun |
|
|
