| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bladedancer |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 09:26:08
I was planning on using a Fey'ri cleric of Vhaerun as one of the major lackeys of the B.B.E.G. in my Menzoberranzan campaign. Do you think it is feasible for a fey'ri to be in the Underdark serving a drow god? He is going to be one of the fey'ri decended from theone's that escaped the Seven Citadels war. By the way the events of the Last Mythal are not in my campaign. So Sarya and crew are still gathering their strength in the High Forest.
Thanks in advance |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 12:18:53
And since nature is Toril and Toril is Chauntea, that would work for me just fine. :) |
| Zanan |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 11:40:16
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Temporarily being the key word.
Of course. Who knows, maybe they cast that into stone some day ... this drawing from nature itself, obviously  |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 10:22:39
Temporarily being the key word. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 10:12:58
For those interested ... The Hooded One's reply on Ed's behalf, important bits regarding the topic underlined:
quote:
July 13, 2005: Hello again, fellow scribes.
Kuje, Ed hasn't forgotten your Purple Lady queries, and will reply soon. In the meantime, however, he answers your divine spells question:
In 2nd Edition, 1st and 2nd level spells could be gained or renewed without direct connection to any deity (and so were obtainable during a Godswar, as I suggested in DRAGON #54, and we later all saw in the Time of Troubles). As a general rule, divine spells should be granted by deities (or their servant creatures) only as a result of direct prayer: in other words, yes, divine casters must worship a specific deity and not a cause or broad aspect.
However (weasel time), there will be exceptions, because in the endless game of one-up-god-ship that Faerūnian deities play, subtly struggling for supremacy over each other, dominance over intelligent races and events that affect their societies, and defense of personal portfolios, gods (and their loyal servant creatures) will often grant spells to mortals "out of the blue," or under false pretenses, or whatever - - just to try to influence those events and achieve some unknown-to-mortals aim or temporary victory in the ongoing godly struggle. As I've said before, there are secrets about the gods I can't yet reveal, but all of this boils down to: MOST divine casters get their spells by praying directly to a deity and serving that deity adequately (serve poorly, and your prayers may not be answered at all; serve superbly, and you may even receive extra magic), but A FEW divine casters may, for indefinite periods, receive spells when venerating only a cause, broad aspect, or even a dead or "the wrong" god.
So saith Ed.
Exhibiting his usual love for compromise and all-inclusive attempts to please.
love to all,
THO
|
| GothicDan |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 23:31:29
Thanks, Kuje. :) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 15:27:51
Ed has answered the "it draws on nature" question either in 2005 or 2006. Look through the table of contents/index of his replies.
It's a July 13, 2005 entry. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 12:35:50
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
It is canon, because Ed's words are canon and it hasn't been contradicted by a more modern sourcebook. That's what I mean. :)
That'll be a vein discussion ... and so far, as you said it yourself, he has not exactly spoken about that lich's resources as such (more like a rumour he whispered) nor the archivist's actual power source, for that matter. Yet, as he resides nearby, how about asking him more directly? |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 11:02:22
Well, I am of the impression that ( unfortunately) Eds words do not triumph published cannon, so the lich druid still officially stands as drawing its power from nature. I could be wrong about this although. I agree with the notion that a divinity is needed, so the explanation for the lich does not work for me personally. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 10:35:55
It is canon, because Ed's words are canon and it hasn't been contradicted by a more modern sourcebook. That's what I mean. :) |
| Zanan |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 10:17:27
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
It has. In so far that - with all due respect to Ed - there is nothing in the book that hints on any nature deity backing up what the lich teaches and what the EV druids / rangers / et al do. I know the rules, I know the ifs and buts, but the mentioned text just adds something "new" (as was e.g. the one step rule). Whether this will be changed or whether there is a (non-elven) deity actually backing this remains to be seen.
So what if the book doesn't say anything about it? *Confused*
Dunno what is confusing about the above? CoR says that the lich druid has found a way to draw his powers from "divine nature" itself rather from a nature deity. That contradicts previous lore, of course (as did the one step rulings on a clerics alignment, which IMHO is more often than not unreasonable). It's something "new" to the system of drawing "divine" power for spellcasting - IMHO a good addition. Whether this will be changed in books and lore to come, we will see. If Ed says that there is or might be a deity behind .. no problem over here. It's just not canon as yet.  (And I hope it will stay as it is ... or the druid deity list gets a major shake-up.) |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 23:32:01
quote:
Then how does Silvanus fit in to that then?
Silvanus is a known Interloper deity from Earth. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 23:31:21
quote:
It has. In so far that - with all due respect to Ed - there is nothing in the book that hints on any nature deity backing up what the lich teaches and what the EV druids / rangers / et al do. I know the rules, I know the ifs and buts, but the mentioned text just adds something "new" (as was e.g. the one step rule). Whether this will be changed or whether there is a (non-elven) deity actually backing this remains to be seen.
So what if the book doesn't say anything about it? *Confused* |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 21:16:07
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Without checking for definitions et al, IMHO herecy is something within a faith. Such as sects or cults interpreting the dogma of a deity other than the mainstream clergy did/does. The latter will view the former as heretics.
If you broaden the point of view, a quasi-monotheistic society (such as a drow city ruled and dominated by Lolthites) may view any mentioning, support or the like of another deity or any actions against e.g. Lolth as herecy too.
I agree with that...
but then you have to consider that the rules like "only females" or "only elves", etc. maybe just a churches dogma..not a direct edict from the power...
my point is (and this point could have been made in many threads), in a world where a god's life and power is dependent on the amount of true worshippers they have, a god may not have the luxury to be picky in the worshipper's race...and a 3rd Ed. erased out pretty much all racial/class restrictions then
thus it may be church dogma that a sun elf wouldn't worship Vhaerun or a meazel may be a paladin of Tyr or a kobald a cleric of Garl Glittergold or etc. etc. etc.
like I said in a past thread I think all that matters to a god is what/where/why the heart, spirit and soul of a worshipper is
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| Zanan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 21:08:36
Without checking for definitions et al, IMHO herecy is something within a faith. Such as sects or cults interpreting the dogma of a deity other than the mainstream clergy did/does. The latter will view the former as heretics.
If you broaden the point of view, a quasi-monotheistic society (such as a drow city ruled and dominated by Lolthites) may view any mentioning, support or the like of another deity or any actions against e.g. Lolth as herecy too. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 21:02:45
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Nature itself is Chauntea, in FR, anyway. All of Abeir-Toril is just her physical manifestation - literally, according to Ed, not metaphorically.
Then how does Silvanus fit in to that then?
oh, and I have a general question for everybody...I saw the word "heresy"...is heresy what P.O.s the God or does the god's organized church deem what heresy is...in a world where the gods directly impact their worshipers...
Like the Helmites plundering of Maztica or Lathander's identy crisis? |
| Kazzaroth |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 20:56:17
In my opinion the druids or rangers supporting EV can worship any neutral deity, even Malar in extend that they focus their hunting towards humans examply. There is little information about the inviduals and actual divine magics to be used in EV at all and generall. Only known fact is that how the EV was founded, what are the key people and that they likely have wizards and such and lich whit green dragon. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 10:57:55
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
That really doesn't have much to do with what I was saying, does it Zanan?
Nature itself is Chauntea, in FR, anyway. All of Abeir-Toril is just her physical manifestation - literally, according to Ed, not metaphorically.
It has. In so far that - with all due respect to Ed - there is nothing in the book that hints on any nature deity backing up what the lich teaches and what the EV druids / rangers / et al do. I know the rules, I know the ifs and buts, but the mentioned text just adds something "new" (as was e.g. the one step rule). Whether this will be changed or whether there is a (non-elven) deity actually backing this remains to be seen. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 10:05:49
That really doesn't have much to do with what I was saying, does it Zanan?
Nature itself is Chauntea, in FR, anyway. All of Abeir-Toril is just her physical manifestation - literally, according to Ed, not metaphorically. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 09:49:37
quote:
Originally posted by Kazzaroth
What comes to archivist I myself have started recently play one and my char is coming from Candlekeep. I would imagine every bloody monk from Candlekeep is actually archivist or archivist/monk if we go more martial focused archivist ;). I would imagine most scholars would be archivists if not bardic sages.
As I said, a decent class indeed and very useful. 
GD ... I think we have to wait and see. This whole druidic patron business needs a shake-up, since we have a limited (and maybe not exclusive) list in the FRCS (with non-nature deities included), but various rangers of non-nature deities in various adventures et al. All tweak canon here and there and I for one wouldn't have a problem if nature as such can be the source of the spells, even though the character might have a patron deity that has not exactly something to do with nature. Many Underdark races would rejoice here. |
| Kazzaroth |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 00:08:18
What comes to archivist I myself have started recently play one and my char is coming from Candlekeep. I would imagine every bloody monk from Candlekeep is actually archivist or archivist/monk if we go more martial focused archivist ;). I would imagine most scholars would be archivists if not bardic sages. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 22:09:47
And Ed said that he THOUGHT that he was not getting his power from a deity. It is in fact being granted by one, in secret. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 22:07:43
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Ed's reply concerning the rumors of the EV's allied lich gaining power directly from nature is just that - a rumor. In FR, he says that divine magic comes from deities.
That is not a rumour ... it is fact and as such (you know the word coming your way:) canon. p. 85 of Champions of Ruin. The rumour was just a way of introducing the character, not the things he afterwards taught to the EV.
Well, archivists are a very good addition to the standard classes. As I said, they will have patrons as anyone else, but whether that patron is the one who hands out the divine spells - especially if these divine spells come from ... say the druids spell list is another matter. Maybe someone will FRize the archivists some day and let us know. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 21:09:14
Ed's reply concerning the rumors of the EV's allied lich gaining power directly from nature is just that - a rumor. In FR, he says that divine magic comes from deities. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 15:31:20
>>Well, yes. That was not exactly my point. You do need a patron, no problem. But it is IMHO >>easier to disguise your "patronage" if you cast divine spells out of a "forged" >.prayerbook "in the name of (say) Vhaeraun" while the spells actually come from (say) >>Shevarash.
>>PS: Where / when did he say that and in what sort of context? Archivists? (The name is IMHO >>somewhat misleading.)
Archivists are divine casters and therefore SHOULD have a patron. The class as written leaves this ambiguous, almost as if archivists have learned how to leech divine energy to power their spells. Of course, they do this with druids too, and druids are forced to take a patron in the realms (no worshipping "nature itself"). I am glad to see others looking at that class, because it would seem to fit some areas of Faerun very well (Thay, Calimshan, Halruaa, Silverymoon, Candlekeep, etc...) and some religions quite well (Azuth, Mystra, Savras, Thoth, Oghma, Deneir, etc...)
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
| Zanan |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 13:20:30
Well, yes. That was not exactly my point. You do need a patron, no problem. But it is IMHO easier to disguise your "patronage" if you cast divine spells out of a "forged" prayerbook "in the name of (say) Vhaeraun" while the spells actually come from (say) Shevarash.
PS: Where / when did he say that and in what sort of context? Archivists? (The name is IMHO somewhat misleading.) |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 01:12:08
Ed says. :)
He said that, no matter what feat or whatever one is using, to use divine magic in FR, one must be granted the magic by a divine being. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 21:47:48
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Well, in FR, a deity would still be granting his spells...
Yes ... actually, who knows? (the class is not defined in FR lands, apart from being (quasi-) divine casters (spell-wise only, most likely) ... but much like the Masked Traitors ... or even better than them, the other clerics would not immediately note which god it actually is who grants the spells. Obviously, if there are "Masked Traitors" (actually in both directions) for them two deities, why not for others? |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 09:12:25
Well, in FR, a deity would still be granting his spells... |
| Zanan |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 09:11:18
Well ... if you want to stick to official stuff, how about an archivist instead of a cleric? You could pose as a drow and a cleric while not actually being one of Vhaeraun (essentially, much like the Masked Traitors do with their "worship of Lolth"). S/He learns her/his spells out of a spell-/prayerbook and cast them normally.
Archivists can be found in "Heroes of Horror" or the excerpt of this book on the Wizards' website. Quite good a class too. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:06:01
Now, I could see that - a Sun Elf worshipping Vhaeraun under an alt., so to speak.
The question is - how to make a respectable, believable heresy? |
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