| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 02:22:29
I have been thinking about the ability to raise dead, ressurect, etc. and the effect it has on the campaign. I definately want PCs to be able to have access to the ability, but at the same time, especially in 3rd/3.5, it seems much more like a routine thing. Back in 1st and 2nd edition, even though it was rare, a character could fail their system shock roll and never be able to be raised.
Not only that, but it seems like the setting, while it aknowledges that people can be raised by powerful spellcasters, doesn't seem to have a ton of examples of those that have been raised. I know that a lot of nations actually have rules against raising dead rulers, as per Ed's responses about Azoun and various other rulers. I also know there are a few NPCs that are noted as having been raised (Nain Keenwhistler springs to mind).
Still, I wish there was a way to make it feel more momentous when someone dies. So far I have had one player that I RPed the Fugue Plane experience with, and it was fun. Its definately something I want to make sure to impress upon the players when their characters die.
I started to incorporate the rules in Heroes of Horror for raising the dead, which entails a skill check using either spellcraft or knowledge : religion, but the more I think about it, the more I want divine magic, especially healing, to feel like miracles granted by the gods, so I basically just want them to work or not work, not involved skill checks. Plus the mechanic for Heroes of Horror facilitates raising dead not working right (i.e. brining back evil spirits, having creatures from the afterlife following around the raised charcter, and several effects that force them to roleplay a certain way), and I just want it to feel more special, not make it into a horror game.
There was an article in Dragon 342 that details some ways to alter raised dead working in the campaign. One of the suggestions was to disallow any divine casters from praying for raised dead, ressurection, or true ressurection unless they took a feat called Life Restorer, which would then allow them to pray for these spells. After reading Power of Faerun (a comment on page 49), I would tweak it like this:
Miracle Worker
You have the faith and dedication to perform the most powerful and profound of all divine magics.
Prequisites: Ability to cast divine spells
Benefits: You may prepare and cast the spells raise dead, resurrection, true ressurection,and miracle. You may only do this when you are high enough level to receive these spells, and only if they are on the spell lists for your class.
Normal: The above listed spells are not available to the majority of the clergy if they are not specially trained and found worthy of receiving the greatest secrets of the faith.
The article also notes that in a campaign such as this, scrolls of the above spells would be at least triple thier normal cost, since only a few of the clergy can use them. Since they require only spell completion though, any divine caster that can heal would be able to use them.
Also, if I went this route, I would have some kind of means for the PCs of various faiths to have access to an artifact spell such as the one listed in the last Dragon magazine.
The up side would be to provide a feel that raising the dead isn't an everyday occurance, and not even high level clerics are automatically assumed to have access to such abilities, and even if a given temple has an artifact spell or scrolls, since they are rare it would take a lot more roleplaying, persuasion, and the like to convince them to let go of such a treasured possession.
The downside would be that clerics would have one more feat to take if they really wanted to feel "devout." On one hand, I don't mind it, but if you think about it, if you want your cleric to seem like they are really seriously devoted to their faith, you will likely want to take an initiate feat, maybe true beleiver from Complete Divine, perhaps prophet of the divine, though not nearly as likely, and this one I listed above. Not much else in the way of feats for mid level clerics. Of course, I could easily see elven clerics never learning the above listed feat, all things considered.
Finally, I think I would actually allow cleric of Kelemvor to prepare raise dead, resurrection, and true ressurection without the above feat, but that they would be enjoined from raising the dead if their deaths were the natural consequense of their life. In other words, a child run over by a runaway cart could be raised, and a warrior that died because he was poisoned at a formal dinner, or a rogue that died of a disease. But a warrior that dies in a battle where he could use his skills, or a theif that was backstabbed by his allies, would need to stay dead, because their deaths fit their lives. Just a thought.
Okay, I've been long winded enough, what thoughts to you scribes out there have? |
| 6 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 19:09:57
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Been thinking about this. I do not like the idea of burning a feat. Perhaps you might consider a skill maybe Kwowledge (recall soul) that in order to raise dead they must have required number of ranks. Clerics get few skill poinrs so only some might be willing to spend these points to raise dead, instead go to a temple where a Cleric has devoted their lives to doing so at cost of other skills. I would design the skill in such a way a take 10 can be used, retry posible IIRC. Playing with DCs could make this type of healing harder.
The other idea I had was the raised Character loses a Con point every time (perhaps instead of level loss). With able to increase a stat every 4 level this is not as deadly as 2nd, but does exact a price for players running their characters into very dangerious situations.
I get what you are saying about not wanting to burn a feat, but I am also reticent to make it a skill. Heck, clerics are as hard pressed for skill points as they are for feats, and my current solution is to have them make a Spellcraft of Knowledge Religion check versus a given DC to do it successfully.
I have also thought about adding the Raise Dead/Ressurection spells to one or more of the Initiate of feats, meaning that Initiatates of certain gods automatically get them, perhaps those gods more associated with miracles and healing, such as Lathander and Ilmater.
Also, I don't know if any of you have seen the spell, but Revivification is a 5th level spell that can return someone from the dead if cast the round right after they die, but it has to be cast within one round of their death, and has no negative repercussions. I wouldn't restrict this spell, since it has to be done right away after the death occurs.
The cleric of Helm in my current group that I DM for carries one Revivification scroll for each PC in the group, save himself, since no one can use the scrolls but him. He has had to use one of them, and the party druid has already said that if he can't be revivified, he would rather not be raised, etc.
I'll continue to cogitate on this, but keep the ideas coming, its a fun topic to mull over. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 18:01:57
Been thinking about this. I do not like the idea of burning a feat. Perhaps you might consider a skill maybe Kwowledge (recall soul) that in order to raise dead they must have required number of ranks. Clerics get few skill poinrs so only some might be willing to spend these points to raise dead, instead go to a temple where a Cleric has devoted their lives to doing so at cost of other skills. I would design the skill in such a way a take 10 can be used, retry posible IIRC. Playing with DCs could make this type of healing harder.
The other idea I had was the raised Character loses a Con point every time (perhaps instead of level loss). With able to increase a stat every 4 level this is not as deadly as 2nd, but does exact a price for players running their characters into very dangerious situations.
|
| Gelcur |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 16:54:06
Well to my knoweldge its in the realms as far as PCs are concerned ressurections should be very uncommon. Even if it occurs often in the novels you have to think those ressurections are just one of many adventurers the most of who just die.
For PCs I basically won't have a NPC cleric of a church not of their own raise them, unless there is some sort of plot mechanic to it. And even if it is a priest of their own faith the priest will try to assertain if the soul is worth bring back, if his/her acts are worthy ones. Finally, I roll to see if judgement has already been passed and the souls have been taken to their deities plane:
demi 2d8 days
lesser 1d10 days
inter 1d6 days
greater 2d12 hours
Chances that a soul will come back from their deities home plane is slim to none, again plot related things aside.
I basically use the same rules for if a PC is raising someone basically the raise fails unless the target is of the same faith. And then all the same rolls as above. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 14:53:17
I also believe that the rules of raise dead and (true) resurrection is fairly well balanced in the 3.5 rules.
However, I in my campaign was to generous with priests true resurrecting dead player characters. At the end the players refused to use Resurrection but traveled with a dead companion many miles to the next city to have him true resurrected. Only later did I notice the unique character of the true resurrection spell and now do not allow it in game play anymore. It's just for unique heroes and not for some low-level adventuring thief.
|
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 03:57:48
I don’t personally tweak my players too much for my 3.5 Realms Campaign RE: Raise Dead/True Res., etc…because to me it smacks too much of DM Screwing Over Players.
It’s been my experience over the last five to six years that the costs (XP costs, lost levels) associated with Resurrection Magic is appropriate to play in my campaign.
OTOH, my campaign did go through a “What, I’m dead again?” phase that reminded me I needed to do more than just…
<will finish this post in a bit…it’s dinner time and then off to see Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man’s Chest!>
***
<7/9/06: And that movie was bloody brilliant! Worth seeing a second time, even. Ah, but where was I?>
…stand back and let them pay for these services. It bothered me that character death was simply an impediment.
Sure they’d done a lot in game (especially in Cormyr) to earn solid reputations amongst the general populace during the War with Nalvara, and had even (of their own accord) visited certain temples just to make donations to their patron gods, etc…
But how to change things without ‘taking away’ from them?
Two things helped me here. One, I livened up the game world. Literally, presiding priests moved on to other places, then politely refused the players once the PCs tracked them down (“I must save my prayers and power for these people in need here.”) These priest also grew tired and ‘worn out’ when casting such magics, so that they dare not repeat overmuch or risk an early demise. And I began having priesthoods ask for services in lieu of payment, which forced the PCs to choose between accepting lesser resurrections (which they could still pay for and so stay on track with their main campaign goals) or accepting a True Res., but have to spend much in-game time completing the service.
Second, the players themselves began to see that a level disparity was growing between them as PCs and their cohorts. Players don’t like it when one amongst their group is higher level and thus seen as ‘more powerful’, regardless of character class. This kept them wanting their PCs to survive. Also, the players would never True Res a cohort, yet over time the cohorts became even more vulnerable because of this as the players grew in power and their cohorts couldn’t keep within a ‘survivable’ range of levels with the PCs.
***
Ultimately I think if players aren’t too concerned with burning feats, then it’s OK to make Resurrection magic a bit more difficult to obtain. But once they have obtained it…well it wouldn’t be wise as a DM to put even more obstacles in their path to using it.
Don’t dangle a carrot they’ll never be able to catch!
J. Grenemyer |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 02:54:14
I'm one of those old fogies (at age 24) that still plays 2e, so I deal with raise dead, etc by strictly enforcing the aging rules. This means that most priests just aren't willing to cast the spell more than once in their life.
That said, for a 3e mechanic, I like what you've come up with. Raising the dead is a game-breaking ability; it therefore follows that it should require something extra on behalf of the player. You haven't limited any of the cure spells, nor changed which faiths get the spells and which don't. I like it, and if I ever run a high-level 3e game, I may just steal it.
Btw, I've another character that's gotten raised to add to the list: the Harper Belkram was raised twice. |
|
|
