| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Trace_Coburn |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 13:30:06
I'd like some community input on this proposed substitution-level set-up - it's meant primarily for NPCs/GMPCs, but could make a decent 'hook' for PCs too. I've kept it as true as possible to my understanding of the Eilistraeean community, including a number of aspects which (hopefully) lend more flavour/texture to the sub-levels than actual 'crunch'/min-max potential. If anyone thinks it's too powerful, suggestions for tweaks are welcome. 
= = = = = = =
Temple Guardian of Eilistraee (Substitution levels)
Shrines to the Dark Maiden rarely enjoy peaceful histories: they are constantly beset by rival drow factions and outsiders of other races who mistake black skin for dark hearts. As such, these shrines need constant protection by vigilant soldiers.
The Temple Guardian usually comes to the temple as a child and is trained from an early age, often with the hope that they will eventually become one of the Dark Maiden’s venerated Sword Dancers. They learn both the fighting arts of the drow clergy and their performing arts, seeking to emulate the Goddess.
Hit Dice:
d8. The fighting arts into which the Temple Guardian is initiated favour skill over raw power, and mobility over resilience.
Requirements:
A Temple Guardian must be a follower of Eilistraee, about to take their first level of Fighter, and have lived in or near a drow shrine to the Dark Maiden for at least one year while constantly training with its clergy; most have grown up in the temple and its training programme. The majority of Temple Guardians are elves or half-elves (predominantly of the drow sub-race), though occasionally a human will be taken in (often as foundling children); generally speaking, other races lack either the proper temperament or the necessary mental or physical agility. Most are females being groomed for initiation into the mysteries of the clergy and eventual Sword Dancer status, but many males also serve as Temple Guardians to be closer to their Goddess.
Class Skills:
Temple Guardians have all the standard fighter class skills, plus Perform (Cha) (dance, musical instrument*, and/or singing), Knowledge (religion) (Int), and Sense Motive (Wis). They train beside the temple’s clerics in the fighting arts, participate in the clergy’s rituals and revels, and are encouraged to look for the truth behind a person’s words (as so many outsiders come to these shrines with concealed fell intent). Given their constant dealing with divine casters and the ‘stick and weave’ fighting style they are taught, they often take ranks in Spellcraft and Tumble as well, though these are not class skills.
*The Temple Guardian’s instrument(s) of choice must be from the following list of the Dark Maiden’s preferred instruments: harp, horn, longhorn (flute), or shawm.
Skill points:
6 + Int bonus (or four times this many for a starting character).
Special limitation: of these skill points, starting characters must put at least six total ranks into their Perform skill(s) (minimum of one rank each for dancing, instrument and song, plus three discretionary) and at least two into Knowledge (religion). Characters taking their second Temple Guardian substitution level, or transitioning into their first from another class, must allocate at least two total ranks to the indicated Perform skill(s) and one to Knowledge (religion). This reflects their semi-monastic training environment and its strong artistic/expressive bent.
This substitution feature (increased skill points) replaces the normal fighter d10 Hit Dice.
CLASS FEATURES:
Weapon and armour proficiencies:
The fighting arts of the Eilistraeean clergy are strongly based on those of (dark) elves, which emphasise manoeuvre rather than the ‘stand and slam’ tactics of many humans and dwarves. As such, unlike other fighters Temple Guardians gain only d8 Hit Dice, rather than d10, and they gain proficiency only with light and medium armour, shields other than tower shields, and simple and martial weapons; moreover, the character may never become proficient with heavy armour unless she specifically uses a Feat to do so, no matter what class(es) she may take after completing her substitution levels. However, the Temple Guardian’s training includes extensive work with the Dark Maiden’s weapon of preference, the bastard sword, allowing her to wield it one-handed as a Martial weapon, rather than an Exotic one.
Dance of the Moonblade (Ex):
The Eilistraeean clergy favours blades over other weapons, and swords above all. A 1st-level Temple Guardian gains Dodge as a bonus feat. This ability acts as a prerequisite allowing the acquisition of such follow-on feats as Mobility and Spring Attack. (If the character already possesses the Dodge feat, such as from a previous class or by choosing it as a ‘standard’ fighter bonus feat, they may take Combat Expertise instead; this permits acquisition of subsidiary feats such as Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Whirlwind Attack). However, this ability (and any abilities/subsidiary feats pre-requiring it) can function ONLY when the character is wielding a sword; it CANNOT function if the character is wearing Heavy armour.
Additionally, a Temple Guardian who takes (or possesses) the Weapon Focus feat with any sword (other than greatsword) may also treat the weapon as if he possesses the Weapon Finesse feat, even if the weapon is not normally subject to Weapon Finesse. As this Focus/Finesse combination represents the character’s presumptive weapon of preference during their training at the temple, this feature applies only to the first sword for which Weapon Focus is taken.
These substitution features replace proficiency with tower shields.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
The combat style of the Dark Maiden’s followers emphasises alertness, fleetness of foot, and swiftness of reaction; indeed, one of the cardinal rules all Temple Guardians and Eilistraeean clerics are taught in training is “Never. Stop. Moving!” At second level, a Temple Guardian gains the Uncanny Dodge special ability, gaining the extraordinary ability to react to danger before their senses would normally allow them to do so; they retain their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible foe. (They still lose their Dexterity bonus if immobilised.) If a character already has (or later gains) Uncanny Dodge from a second class, the character gains Improved Uncanny Dodge instead, and the levels from the class(es) granting Uncanny Dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. This ability can function ONLY when the character is wielding a sword; it CANNOT function if the character is wearing Heavy armour.
This substitution feature replaces proficiency with heavy armour. Though it is considered to be taken at first Temple Guardian level, this feature does not come into effect until second level. If Improved Uncanny Dodge is acquired in this manner, the character’s effective level regarding their vulnerability to flank-attacks by rogues is only equal to their level(s) in their other Uncanny Dodge class(es) plus their two Temple Guardian levels – ‘normal’ fighter levels do not contribute.
= = = = = = =
I *was* going to try to slot Evasion into this as well, but while I feel the fluff justification exists, I couldn't find a way to balance it out.  |
| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 09:22:22
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn
Unless anyone offers some in the next couple of days? I don't think so. 
Thanks for the 'bump' - I completely forgot to send this off to Alaundo as Unofficial Realmslore when it was last active. 
/me plans to correct that tonight 
[/quote]
Well met
Indeed, I await eagerly for thy finished article, Trace. Please email it over to me when you're happy with it and i'll certainly include it in the next site update coming soon  |
| Trace_Coburn |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 05:26:19
quote:
Originally posted by Prince Indirian
No more revisions :)
Unless anyone offers some in the next couple of days? I don't think so.
Thanks for the 'bump' - I completely forgot to send this off to Alaundo as Unofficial Realmslore when it was last active.
/me plans to correct that tonight
|
| Prince Indirian |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 05:00:06
No more revisions :) |
| Trace_Coburn |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 13:28:24
Well, after all of that back and forth, let's see how this works, hmmm?
= = = = = = =
Temple Guardian of Eilistraee (Substitution level)
Shrines to the Dark Maiden rarely enjoy peaceful histories: they are constantly beset by rival drow factions and outsiders of other races who mistake black skin for dark hearts. As such, these shrines need constant protection by vigilant soldiers. Being that many Eilistraeean communities lack access to a proper training Academy such as the renowned Mêlée-Magthere collegiums, the training of such soldiers often falls under the purview of the shrine’s clergy.
A number of Temple Guardians come to the Dark Maiden’s clergy as children (often being fostered to them or adoptees taken in after being orphaned by this or that misfortune) and are trained from an early age in what drow consider a fashion resembling that of the preparation of surface-world ‘holy knights’. Others are those ineligible for the clergy itself (usually by gender) who realise that combat-skills are vital to the survival of their small, vulnerable enclaves; still others wish to serve the church directly but lack the proper temperament to make good clerics. Nonetheless, all of those passing through these training programmes are taught not only the fighting arts of the drow clergy, but also something of their performing arts, as homage to the Goddess. Though the programme turns out skilled soldiers as an end in itself, it is also intended as preparation for its graduates to eventually return to the church as Divine Champions or, in a few (uncommon and much-celebrated) instances, as Sword Dancers, who are venerated as the highest expression of Eilistraee’s vision for the drow.
(Most females of elven/drow blood who enter this training programme actually emerge as clerics of the Dark Maiden rather than Temple Guardians, having heard the Call of the Goddess during this novitiate period; of course, there are exceptions to every rule.)
Hit Dice:
d8. The fighting arts into which the Temple Guardian is initiated favour skill over raw power, and mobility over resilience.
Requirements:
A Temple Guardian must be a follower of Eilistraee, about to take their first level of Fighter, and have lived in or near a drow shrine to the Dark Maiden for at least one year while constantly training with its clergy. The majority of Temple Guardians are elves or half-elves (predominantly of the drow sub-race), though occasionally a human will be taken in; generally speaking, other races are either lack the proper temperament or the necessary mental or physical agility.
Special limitation: ‘Temple Guardian’ status may be claimed only at the beginning of a character’s association with a formal church of Eilistraee. Characters who already have levels as clerics of Eilistraee cannot enter this substitution level, as they are presumed to have already gone through a similar training programme during their novitiate.
Class Skills:
Temple Guardians have all the standard fighter class skills, plus Perform (Cha)*, Knowledge (religion) (Int), and Spot (Wis). They train beside the temple’s clerics in the fighting arts, usually participate in the clergy’s rituals and revels, and are encouraged to remain ever-watchful for those who come to the temple with fell intent (open or concealed). Given their constant dealing with divine casters and the ‘stick and weave’ fighting style they are taught, they often take ranks in Spellcraft and Tumble as well, though these are not class skills.
* The Temple Guardian’s performance skill(s) *must* come from the following list: Perform (dance), Perform (sing), or Perform (instrument); if the latter, they must choose to play one or more of the following list instruments, which are favoured by the Dark Maiden: harp, horn, longhorn (flute), or songhorn (recorder/fipple flute).
Skill points:
4 + Int bonus (or four times this many for starting character)
Special limitation: of these skill points, starting characters must put at least four total ranks into their Perform skill(s) (in any combination) and at least two into Knowledge (religion); characters transitioning into Temple Guardian training from another class must allocate at least two total ranks to the indicated Perform skill(s) and one to Knowledge (religion). This reflects their semi-monastic training environment and its strong artistic/expressive bent. This feature (increased skill points) replaces the normal fighter d10 Hit Dice.
CLASS FEATURES:
Weapon and armour proficiencies:
The fighting arts of the Eilistraeean clergy are strongly based on those of (dark) elves, which emphasise manoeuvre rather than the ‘stand and slam’ tactics of many humans and dwarves. As such, unlike other fighters Temple Guardians gain only d8 Hit Dice, rather than d10, and they gain proficiency only with light and medium armour, shields other than tower shields, and simple and martial weapons.
However, the Temple Guardian’s training includes extensive work with the Dark Maiden’s weapon of preference, the bastard sword, allowing her to wield it one-handed.
This substitution feature (Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)) replaces proficiency with tower shields.
Dance of the Moonsword (Ex):
The Eilistraeean clergy favours blades over other weapons, and swords above all. Accordingly, a Temple Guardian who takes (or possesses) the Weapon Focus feat with any sword (other than greatsword) at any point in their career may also treat the weapon as if he possesses the Weapon Finesse feat, even if the weapon is not normally subject to Weapon Finesse. As this Focus/Finesse combination represents the character’s presumptive weapon of preference during their training, this feature applies only to the first sword for which Weapon Focus is taken.
The combat style of the Dark Maiden’s followers emphasises alertness, fleetness of foot, and swiftness of reaction; indeed, one of the cardinal rules Temple Guardians and Eilistraeean clerics are taught in training is “Never. Stop. Moving!” A Temple Guardian who takes the Dodge Feat as their 1st-level fighter bonus Feat (or already possesses it from another class) gains the Uncanny Dodge special ability, gaining the extraordinary ability to react to danger before their senses would normally allow them to do so; they retain their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible foe. (They still lose their Dexterity bonus if immobilised.)
If a character already has (or later gains) Uncanny Dodge from a second class, the character gains Improved Uncanny Dodge instead, and the levels from the class(es) granting Uncanny Dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
This substitution feature (Weapon Finesse/Uncanny Dodge) replaces proficiency with heavy armour and pre-requires the Dodge feat.
Special limitations: a Temple Guardian only counts their first fighter level (the TG substitution level) for the purposes of determining vulnerability to rogue flank-attacks. This ability is rendered non-functional if the character is not wielding a sword as their primary weapon, or if they are wearing heavy armour (whether proficient in its use or not). Owing to the retraining necessary, any character gaining proficiency with heavy armour permanently forfeits the Uncanny Dodge ability.
Temple Guardian characters who later multi-class as clerics of Eilistraee may choose not to gain proficiency with heavy armour in order to retain their Uncanny Dodge ability, but they do not gain a feat to replace the ‘lost’ proficiency. Characters who multi-class as clerics or paladins of any other deity gain heavy armour proficiency as normal, but permanently forfeit the “Dance of the Moonsword” special ability to do so and must atone for their apostasy before they can use any clerical/paladin powers from their new faith. (This includes a ritual of absolution from a senior cleric of their new faith – in game terms, an atonement spell; per that spell's fluff, DMs are fully encouraged to assign suspected min/maxers quests to prove the depths of their ‘contrition’ before granting said spell, exacting the requisite XP penalty, and permitting access to the powers of their new class.)
= = = = = = =
Has this "final" revision ground enough of the edges off of the concept to make it acceptable to the scribes here? ^.~ |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 05:56:23
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Um? Armor of drow make is the same as armor made by drow. What is so confusing about this? I've said this a few times now. It says nothing about armor made in the Underdark and all it says is armor made by drow, which would be well, armor of drow make and armor made by drow and so again, a 1st level character can afford armor made by drow or armor of drow make.
Ditto.
Either way... the armor is the product of the drow.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 05:07:01
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
You are behind the times then, because one of the expansion books indeed provides an oil to prevent sunlight decay. I though also amit an erro as the text does say "armor of drow make" (from a 2nd Ed source) which might lead to the question of what defines "armor of drow make" and if that is different the mundane armor "made by Drow".
Is there a difference, is there a requirement of using "armor of drow make" (which appears to me to indicate, made in the underdark) and "made by Drow" (which can be any item at all?
I'm not behind the times since, untill that drow property came out in the Underdark sourcebook, the material from 1e and 2e was retconned and so no items decayed in sunlight. Go ask SKR, he even has a rant about it on his web page.
Um? Armor of drow make is the same as armor made by drow. What is so confusing about this? I've said this a few times now. It says nothing about armor made in the Underdark and all it says is armor made by drow, which would be well, armor of drow make and armor made by drow and so again, a 1st level character can afford armor made by drow or armor of drow make. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 05:01:38
You are behind the times then, because one of the expansion books indeed provides an oil to prevent sunlight decay of Drow armor. I though also amit an errot as the text does say "armor of drow make" (from a 2nd Ed source) which might lead to the question of what defines "armor of drow make" and if that is different the mundane armor "made by Drow".
Is there a difference, is there a requirement of using "armor of drow make" (which appears to me to indicate, made in the underdark) and "made by Drow" (which can be any item at all?
Also we might consider taking this discussion to a different thread.
If it can continue at all.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 04:51:30
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
It is always fun to be in dispute with two moderators, *sighs*.
Drow armor has always been described as sunlight unstable, (3.X has made it easier to make protection of said armor and weapons affoedable).
Eilistraree temples, such as they are, often even on the surface have a tunnel connecting them to the underdark.
Drow labled cloaks are also sunlight sensitive.
Perhaps I could offer the question to Ed, however he has not yet answered a few Eilistraee questions so I hesitate to add another question that likely will remain unanswered. Canon says "Drow armor" it does not say "Armor made by Drows".
I do concede I might be misreading the intent and perhaps one of you can get an answer from Ed on this issue as I have no plans to him another question until I get at least one answer.
Actually in 3e armor made by drow does not decay in sunlight unless they have the magical item property that is in the Underdark sourcebook. Even so, as I said, in 2e Eilistraee's clergy generally didn't use those types of magical items because they decayed in sunlight/on the surface and so that passage just reads drow made armor, which is armor made by drow. I'm really confused on why you dispute this. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 04:20:20
It is always fun to be in dispute with two moderators, *sighs*.
Drow armor has always been described as sunlight unstable, (3.X has made it easier to make protection of said armor and weapons affoedable).
Eilistraree temples, such as they are, often even on the surface have a tunnel connecting them to the underdark.
Drow labled cloaks are also sunlight sensitive.
Perhaps I could offer the question to Ed, however he has not yet answered a few Eilistraee questions so I hesitate to add another question that likely will remain unanswered. Canon says "Drow armor" it does not say "Armor made by Drows".
I do concede I might be misreading the intent and perhaps one of you can get an answer from Ed on this issue as I have no plans to him another question until I get at least one answer.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 01:53:24
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
"Adventuring Garb: Eilistraee's clergy must garb themselves in either
magical armor or armor of drow make. Whenever possible, priests of the
Dark Maiden must use swords in battle. If no swords are at hand but
other bladed weapons are available, they must be used in preference to
other weapons. Long bows and silver-tipped arrows are also commonly
employed as secondary weapons."
Kinda hard for a starting charcter taking Cleric as 1st level to be able to afford any armor.
I don't follow... why is it so hard? They can wear any armor as long as it's magical or drow make. Leather, chain, plate, scale, etc, can all be made by drow, so I don't follow why a follower of Eilistraee can't have armor at 1st level.
Agreed.
Remember also that priests of Eilistraee can receive gifts of magical armor from those they assist while adventuring since they're "encouraged" to help adventuring bands they encounter.
So, Eilistraee priests affording armor isn't as much of an an issue since they can gain access to beneficial armor from those parties they assist.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 23:11:09
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Unless I missed a revised price list, expanded "Drow armor" list a starting character simplely can not afford to purchase the armor and other starting equipment. Of course this could be an interperation, clearl a Drow can make padded armor however I have never seen a price for Drow padded armor.
I was always under the impession that Drow made referred to a property or descriptive term (subject to decay by sunlight or removal from the underdark, as oposed to anything a Drow craftsperson made).
I think you are reading to much into that then. Surface elves make armor, drow make armor, dwarves make armor, etc. As long as the armor is drow made, or magical, a follower of Eilistraee can wear it. That's all that says. And so, there's no reason why a 1st level character can't have armor. Most of the Eilistraee drow wouldn't have that underdark property/magical property anyhow, since it would have faded on the surface, according to 2e's rules.
Shrug, of course there isn't a different price list for drow padded, or for other drow armors, since the PHB doesn't say, "This is price for armor made by humans but the same armor that is made by the other races is more or less expensive." It just says padded and this is the price. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 22:58:31
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
"Adventuring Garb: Eilistraee's clergy must garb themselves in either
magical armor or armor of drow make. Whenever possible, priests of the
Dark Maiden must use swords in battle. If no swords are at hand but
other bladed weapons are available, they must be used in preference to
other weapons. Long bows and silver-tipped arrows are also commonly
employed as secondary weapons."
Kinda hard for a starting charcter taking Cleric as 1st level to be able to afford any armor.
I don't follow... why is it so hard? They can wear any armor as long as it's magical or drow make. Leather, chain, plate, scale, etc, can all be made by drow, so I don't follow why a follower of Eilistraee can't have armor at 1st level.
Unless I missed a revised price list, expanded "Drow armor" list a starting character simplely can not afford to purchase the armor and other starting equipment. Of course this could be an interperation, clearl a Drow can make padded armor however I have never seen a price for Drow padded armor.
I was always under the impession that Drow made referred to a property or descriptive term (subject to decay by sunlight or removal from the underdark, as oposed to anything a Drow craftsperson made). |
| Kuje |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 22:46:37
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
"Adventuring Garb: Eilistraee's clergy must garb themselves in either
magical armor or armor of drow make. Whenever possible, priests of the
Dark Maiden must use swords in battle. If no swords are at hand but
other bladed weapons are available, they must be used in preference to
other weapons. Long bows and silver-tipped arrows are also commonly
employed as secondary weapons."
Kinda hard for a starting charcter taking Cleric as 1st level to be able to afford any armor.
I don't follow... why is it so hard? They can wear any armor as long as it's magical or drow make. Leather, chain, plate, scale, etc, can all be made by drow, so I don't follow why a follower of Eilistraee can't have armor at 1st level. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 22:19:41
"Adventuring Garb: Eilistraee's clergy must garb themselves in either
magical armor or armor of drow make. Whenever possible, priests of the
Dark Maiden must use swords in battle. If no swords are at hand but
other bladed weapons are available, they must be used in preference to
other weapons. Long bows and silver-tipped arrows are also commonly
employed as secondary weapons."
Kinda hard for a starting charcter taking Cleric as 1st level to be able to afford any armor. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 21:17:41
Demihuman Deities, which has more info on thier clothing and vestments, just states that when in batttle they wear armor. When adventuring, they wear armor but it must be of drow make.
So there's no reason to disallow them to wear plate, as long as it's drow make. :) |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 20:37:26
Hmm "Hordes of the Underdark" do offer Drow Plate so it appears likely that at least some Drow wear heavy armor. Which only leads to the question of if Eilistraee followers would use such armor even if was available.
"Clerics of Eilistraee wear their hair long and dress practically for whatever they are currently doing. For rituals, they wear as little as possible. Otherwise, they tend to wear soft leathers for hunting, aprons while cooking, and—rarely—armor when battle is expected. "
Well not sure it is wise to wear armor rarely, as battle can occur often that is their choice. Other then that Clerics have only two types of armor they can use, Drow armor or magical armor. If clerics know a battle is coming they clearly use the best armor that suits their fighting style (lower Dex Clerics indeed might choose to wear heavy armor when knowing an attack is coming, as defenders they do not need fast movement rate) and of course followers have no armor restrictions (except class restrictions of course). We might discuss about how canon Drow plate is, but it appears to be covered in a product with a FR logo.
As for min max, at times I might be guilty of this myself from time to time. Such as looking at quickest way to become a Sword dancer *wink*, though I also create characters asigning stats as rolled in order (as opose to aranging the dice rolls to stats) then select class sought to be played.
The songhorn sounds like a nice addition and except for canon discussions I do not always worry about that if the noncanon tends to make sense. *wink*
|
| Sian |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 15:50:29
:p ... just to be annoying i'll like to point out that in the northic myth where dwarves and elves comes from ... there is dark elves and dwarves two words for one race |
| Trace_Coburn |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 12:41:56
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hmm, what source provides the shawm as an instrument of the Dark Maiden?
It strikes me as an awkward wind instrument for even a follower to carry. The flute of course the easist to carry, a horn (clearly some indication of a hunting horn) more difficult to carry but not large, the harp clearly depends on size harps are as small as 18 inches high and 12 inches wide (a traveling harp of course).
The inclusion of the shawm was an ill-considered decision not supported by any canon source - an error which I intend to correct as soon as I get the time to re-re-edit the writeup as a whole; it'll be replaced by the songhorn (recorder, AKA 'fipple flute' - a sister of the 'conventional' flute). I didn't do my homework and knew the shawm only as the ancestor of the oboe, which I hoped I could sneak in as non-canon but a good complement/accompaniment to flautists; I didn't realise that a shawm was actually as bulky as its Wikipedia entry (for one) would indicate, and looking back on the history of the instruments' evolution, the recorder is easier to justify in IC terms (not to mention far more portable).
quote:
As for the rest of the writeup, still not sold on idea of tower shield and heavy armor much a restriction (at least for females, that clearly can multiclass as a cleric). I know your fluff says most females undergoing this training will go straight to Cleric, however this looks too good not to take the Fighter level, then pick up a Cleric level. It does not cost enough IMO for benefits gained that females would shun the SL. One answer might be make this SL gender specific, only males can take it. There: tower shield and heavy armor can never be acquired (as Eilistraee does not have paladins and it appears to be hard to impossible for a male to become a Cleric).
You've been burned by min/maxers a lot, haven't you?
At this rate, I'm half-tempted to say that acquiring proficiency with heavy armour at all would negate the Uncanny Dodge feature outright, owing to the (re-)training needed; such multi-classing TG fighter/clerics would either not acquire heavy armour proficiency at Clr1 (effectively losing that 'free' feat outright), or would lose Uncanny Dodge in exchange for it. I'd like to make Temple Guardian fighter/clerics an unusual sight, but not especially remarkable - and I still can't shake the feeling/image that they should not be the kind of people who use heavy armour at any stage of their career. Full chainmail or a breastplate rig, perhaps, but I don't really see drow of any stripe (or anyone they train) getting all decked out in a custom-fitted coat-o'-plates. That's more of a dwarven thing than (dark) elven. [shrug]
quote:
It of course should require, IMO, that changing deity (in order to get heavy armor and/or tower shield) will result in reduction of benefits of this substitution level.
I thought that went without saying, what with the fairly stiff penalties apostasy already carries under 3.5 rules... but it probably wouldn't hurt to include an explicit statement to that effect. "Abandon Eilistraee and you kiss all the goodies from your TG level goodbye" sort of thing, yeah? ^.~ |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 02 Apr 2006 : 19:30:24
Hmm, what souce provides the shawm as an isterment of the Dark Maiden?
It stikes me as an ackward wind instirent for even a follower to carry. The flute of course the easist to carry, a horn (cearly some indication of a hunting horn) more difficlut to carry but not large, the harp clearly depends on size harps are as small as 18 inches high and 12 incnes wide (a traveling harp of course).
As for the rest of the writeup, still not sold on idea of tower shield and heavey armor much a restriction (at least for females, that clearly can multiclass as a cleric). I know your fluff says most females undergoing this training will go straight to Cleric, however this looks too good not to take the Fighter level, then pick up a Cleric level. It does not cost enough IMO for benefits gained that females would shun the SL. One answer might be make this SL gender specfic, only males can take it. There tower shield and heavey armor can never be aquired (as Eilistraee does not have Paldins and it appears to be hard to imposible for a male to become a Cleric).
It of course should require, IMO, that changing deity (in order to gat heacy armor and/or tower shiel) will result in reduction of benefits of this subsitution level. |
| Trace_Coburn |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 13:57:15
Ho-kay, following feedback, let's try this again, shall we?
After some revision, this is now a nice, straightforward first-level, one-time-only sub. I think it takes out the worst of the kinks of the original version - and the expanded fluff might help line things up a little better. I think I've caught the right 'larval-stage samurai/Knights Templar' feel.... 
Temple Guardian of Eilistraee (Substitution level)
Shrines to the Dark Maiden rarely enjoy peaceful histories: they are constantly beset by rival drow factions and outsiders of other races who mistake black skin for dark hearts. As such, these shrines need constant protection by vigilant soldiers. Being that many Eilistraeean communities lack access to a proper training Academy such as the renowned Mêlée-Magthere collegiums, the training of such soldiers often falls under the purview of the shrine’s clergy.
A number of Temple Guardians come to the Dark Maiden’s clergy as children (often being fostered to them or adoptees taken in after being orphaned by this or that misfortune) and are trained from an early age in what drow consider a fashion resembling that of the preparation of surface-world ‘holy knights’. Others are those ineligible for the clergy itself (usually by gender) who realise that combat-skills are vital to the survival of their small, vulnerable enclaves; still others wish to serve the church directly but lack the proper temperament to make good clerics. Nonetheless, all of those passing through these training programmes are taught not only the fighting arts of the drow clergy, but also something of their performing arts, as homage to the Goddess. Though the programme turns out skilled soldiers as an end in itself, it is also intended as preparation for its graduates to eventually return to the church as Divine Champions or, in a few (uncommon and much-celebrated) instances, as Sword Dancers, who are venerated as the highest expression of Eilistraee’s vision for the drow.
(Most females of elven/drow blood who enter this training programme actually emerge as clerics of the Dark Maiden rather than Temple Guardians, having heard the Call of the Goddess during this novitiate period; of course, there are exceptions to every rule.)
Hit Dice:
d8. The fighting arts into which the Temple Guardian is initiated favour skill over raw power, and mobility over resilience.
Requirements:
A Temple Guardian must be a follower of Eilistraee, about to take their first level of Fighter, and have lived in or near a drow shrine to the Dark Maiden for at least one year while constantly training with its clergy. The majority of Temple Guardians are elves or half-elves (predominantly of the drow sub-race), though occasionally a human will be taken in; generally speaking, other races are either lack the proper temperament or the necessary mental or physical agility.
Special limitation: ‘Temple Guardian’ status may be claimed only at the beginning of a character’s association with a formal church of Eilistraee. Characters who already have levels as clerics of Eilistraee cannot enter this substitution level, as they are presumed to have already gone through a similar training programme during their novitiate.
Class Skills:
Temple Guardians have all the standard fighter class skills, plus Perform (Cha)*, Knowledge (religion) (Int), and Spot (Wis). They train beside the temple’s clerics in the fighting arts, usually participate in the clergy’s rituals and revels, and are encouraged to remain ever-watchful for those who come to the temple with fell intent (open or concealed). Given their constant dealing with divine casters and the ‘stick and weave’ fighting style they are taught, they often take ranks in Spellcraft and Tumble as well, though these are not class skills.
* The Temple Guardian’s performance skill(s) *must* come from the following list: Perform (dance), Perform (sing), or Perform (instrument); if the latter, they must choose to play one or more of the following list instruments, which are favoured by the Dark Maiden: harp, horn, longhorn (flute), or shawm.
Skill points:
4 + Int bonus (or four times this many for starting character)
Special limitation: of these skill points, starting characters must put at least four total ranks into their Perform skill(s) (in any combination) and at least two into Knowledge (religion); characters transitioning into Temple Guardian training from another class must allocate at least two total ranks to the indicated Perform skill(s) and one to Knowledge (religion). This reflects their semi-monastic training environment and its strong artistic/expressive bent. This feature (increased skill points) replaces the normal fighter d10 Hit Dice.
CLASS FEATURES:
Weapon and armour proficiencies:
The fighting arts of the Eilistraeean clergy are strongly based on those of (dark) elves, which emphasise manoeuvre rather than the ‘stand and slam’ tactics of many humans and dwarves. As such, unlike other fighters Temple Guardians gain only d8 Hit Dice, rather than d10, and they gain proficiency only with light and medium armour, shields other than tower shields, and simple and martial weapons.
However, the Temple Guardian’s training includes extensive work with the Dark Maiden’s weapon of preference, the bastard sword, allowing her to wield it one-handed.
This substitution feature (Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)) replaces proficiency with tower shields.
Dance of the Moonsword (Ex):
The Eilistraeean clergy favours blades over other weapons, and swords above all. Accordingly, a Temple Guardian who takes (or possesses) the Weapon Focus feat with any sword (other than greatsword) at any point in their career may also treat the weapon as if he possesses the Weapon Finesse feat, even if the weapon is not normally subject to Weapon Finesse. As this Focus/Finesse combination represents the character’s presumptive weapon of preference during their training, this feature applies only to the first sword for which Weapon Focus is taken.
The combat style of the Dark Maiden’s followers emphasises alertness, fleetness of foot, and swiftness of reaction; indeed, one of the cardinal rules Temple Guardians and Eilistraeean clerics are taught in training is “Never. Stop. Moving!” A Temple Guardian who takes the Dodge Feat as their 1st-level fighter bonus Feat (or already possesses it from another class) gains the Uncanny Dodge special ability, gaining the extraordinary ability to react to danger before their senses would normally allow them to do so; they retain their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible foe. (They still lose their Dexterity bonus if immobilised.)
If a character already has (or later gains) Uncanny Dodge from a second class, the character gains Improved Uncanny Dodge instead, and the levels from the class(es) granting Uncanny Dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Special limitations: a Temple Guardian only counts their first fighter level (the TG substitution level) for the purposes of determining vulnerability to rogue flank-attacks. This ability is rendered non-functional if the character is not wielding a sword as their primary weapon, or if they are wearing heavy armour (whether proficient in its use or not).
This substitution feature (Weapon Finesse/Uncanny Dodge) replaces proficiency with heavy armour and pre-requires the Dodge feat.
There's an alternative version of 'Dance of the Moonsword', granting Evasion following the acquisition of the Lightning Reflexes feat, but I figured I'd best keep this simple for now. 
I also had a brief write-up on an equivalent package for clerics, but I ended up with too many benefits and not enough balancing negatives. (Really: what starting cleric *wouldn't* give up proficiency with heavy armour in exchange for more class skills, extra skill points *and* proficiency in a single type of sword? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 19:29:58
Any one working toward Sword dancer will most likely take Cleric to gain divine 2nd level casting ability (it makes little sense for a ranger to become a sword dancer), so the cost of armor prpfecency would not last long at all. Fig1/Clr1 and Cleric could be taken first. There is no cost at all for most characters at all (as few 1st level fighters can afford heavy armor).
I once calculated the quiest build for a Sword Dancer which was Brd2/Clr3/Ftg2. The bard for skill points, the cleric for divine casting level the fighter for the bonus feats and to get BAB increase. Four feats were required. Waepon focus in one subsitution weapon is a fair trade off (that is one of the 4 required feats). Uncany Dodge could be houseruled to replace the required Dodge Feat.
One thing to remember about subsitution level. They must stand on thier own.
I figther should be able to take only one of any of them without being burdened with the requirement to take others to stay in balance. That is if a feat is burned for an ability they must occur at the same time. PrC are for stating effects not subsitution levels.
Only other comment is there is the Darksong Knight subsitution levels that you might want to consider. Perhaps selecting different levels then thoose subsitution levels or perhaps try to discourage access.
Darksong Knight IIRC has subsitution levels for Ftg 2 & 6 |
| Bluenose |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 18:04:50
quote:
Class Skills:
Temple Guardians have all the standard fighter class skills, plus Perform (Cha) (dance, musical instrument*, and/or singing), Knowledge (religion) (Int), and Sense Motive (Wis). They train beside the temple’s clerics in the fighting arts, participate in the clergy’s rituals and revels, and are encouraged to look for the truth behind a person’s words (as so many outsiders come to these shrines with concealed fell intent). Given their constant dealing with divine casters and the ‘stick and weave’ fighting style they are taught, they often take ranks in Spellcraft and Tumble as well, though these are not class skills.
*The Temple Guardian’s instrument(s) of choice must be from the following list of the Dark Maiden’s preferred instruments: harp, horn, longhorn (flute), or shawm.
Skill points:
6 + Int bonus (or four times this many for a starting character).
Special limitation: of these skill points, starting characters must put at least six total ranks into their Perform skill(s) (minimum of one rank each for dancing, instrument and song, plus three discretionary) and at least two into Knowledge (religion). Characters taking their second Temple Guardian substitution level, or transitioning into their first from another class, must allocate at least two total ranks to the indicated Perform skill(s) and one to Knowledge (religion). This reflects their semi-monastic training environment and its strong artistic/expressive bent.
This substitution feature (increased skill points) replaces the normal fighter d10 Hit Dice.
I'd suggest 4 + Int bonus skill points at each level rather than 6, which puts them on a par with Rangers and Bards. I'd recommend Spot for the class skills ahead of Sense Motive. While both are useful, there are others who can assess a person's motives, the guard needs to recognise their existence.
quote:
Dance of the Moonblade (Ex):
The Eilistraeean clergy favours blades over other weapons, and swords above all. A 1st-level Temple Guardian gains Dodge as a bonus feat. This ability acts as a prerequisite allowing the acquisition of such follow-on feats as Mobility and Spring Attack. (If the character already possesses the Dodge feat, such as from a previous class or by choosing it as a ‘standard’ fighter bonus feat, they may take Combat Expertise instead; this permits acquisition of subsidiary feats such as Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Whirlwind Attack). However, this ability (and any abilities/subsidiary feats pre-requiring it) can function ONLY when the character is wielding a sword; it CANNOT function if the character is wearing Heavy armour.
Additionally, a Temple Guardian who takes (or possesses) the Weapon Focus feat with any sword (other than greatsword) may also treat the weapon as if he possesses the Weapon Finesse feat, even if the weapon is not normally subject to Weapon Finesse. As this Focus/Finesse combination represents the character’s presumptive weapon of preference during their training at the temple, this feature applies only to the first sword for which Weapon Focus is taken.
These substitution features replace proficiency with tower shields.
I'd suggest that this should replace the fighters !st level bonus feat, since you already give the class what is effectively a free Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword).
quote:
Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
The combat style of the Dark Maiden’s followers emphasises alertness, fleetness of foot, and swiftness of reaction; indeed, one of the cardinal rules all Temple Guardians and Eilistraeean clerics are taught in training is “Never. Stop. Moving!” At second level, a Temple Guardian gains the Uncanny Dodge special ability, gaining the extraordinary ability to react to danger before their senses would normally allow them to do so; they retain their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible foe. (They still lose their Dexterity bonus if immobilised.) If a character already has (or later gains) Uncanny Dodge from a second class, the character gains Improved Uncanny Dodge instead, and the levels from the class(es) granting Uncanny Dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. This ability can function ONLY when the character is wielding a sword; it CANNOT function if the character is wearing Heavy armour.
This substitution feature replaces proficiency with heavy armour. Though it is considered to be taken at first Temple Guardian level, this feature does not come into effect until second level. If Improved Uncanny Dodge is acquired in this manner, the character’s effective level regarding their vulnerability to flank-attacks by rogues is only equal to their level(s) in their other Uncanny Dodge class(es) plus their two Temple Guardian levels – ‘normal’ fighter levels do not contribute.
I think this should come in at second level, replacing the Temple Guardian's 2nd level fighter bonus feat.
I might be inclined to add another substitution level, perhaps for 6th level, that gave the character a bonus to the Dex bonus that they were allowed to apply in armour similar to the one that the Champion of Corellon prestige class has. The idea would be that these are the front line temple guards, who have to stand in combat while other members of the temple get prepare, and who therefore need heavier protection than other members normally use. |
| Trace_Coburn |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 10:51:22
Gaaaaahhhhhh!  I had a brilliant response to all of this ready to go... only I didn't notice that my log-in cookie had expired until the forums ate all of that typing.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Where do I start?
"usually comes to the temple as a child and is trained from an early age, often with the hope that they will eventually become one of the Dark Maiden’s venerated Sword Dancers"
Eilistraee communities are sometimes very short lived, coming as a child one might not live long enough. Also if wanting to become a sword dancer must be female and have elf blood. I would remove the young age and indicate that some may become Sword Dancers instead of them hoping to become one as non female elf blood are prohibited from ever becoming one.
There are some fairly long-standing Eilistraeean communities as well - most notably the Promenade in Skullport, which Qilué Veladorn founded some centuries ago IIRC. There's also Darkmaiden's Leap in the High Forest, which the name suggests to be a particularly holy site (place of a sighting of Her avatar during the Time of Troubles, I gather? That would put it in the right time-frame for the short-lived races), and while I don't know how long the Shadowtop Grove in Harrowdale has stood, but I get the impression that it's been there for a decade or more - certainly long enough for human and some half-elven 'children' or teenagers to be taken in for training.
And while it's true that males and humans cannot become Sword Dancers, they can become Divine Champions of the Dark Maiden, for which this sub-level setup would also well prepare them (I'll have to add that to the fluff - thanks for helping me redirect my focus!). I have this impression of Temple Guardians (and their 'mature' forms, Sword Dancers and Divine Champions) as being their community's equivalent of the samurai: dreadful foes in battle, but compassionate and cultured folk otherwise, well-rounded citizens who pursue the arts of peace with as much (or more) fervour as they do those of war.
quote:
The substitution levels remove the fighter bonus feat?
Not at this stage of development, no - I wasn't sure if the benefits were enough to 'cost' a feat like that. Should they? ^.~
quote:
The never heavy armor does not work either, other classes including Cleric will grant this ability without the character having to spend a feat. This would be better treated as if wearing heavy armor some abilities do not work.
Uhhhh... if you'll read to the end of both of the special abilities again, you'll see that they don't function when the Temple Guardian is wearing heavy armour.
And while you're right, in that there are classes which offer free heavy-armour proficiency, there are only two such base classes: paladin and cleric. As a Chaotic Good deity, Eilistraee cannot have paladins (hence the emphasis on trying to train up and turn out Divine Champions), and while I'll grant that her clergy do tend to be a fighting priesthood rather than stay-at-home preachers, it's my impression of the faith that her fighter/clerics are more likely to be sword-swingers who had an epiphany and became prietesses, rather than spiritual types who decided they wanted to be better at killing. The Temple Guardian levels are set up to support the former; the latter... well, I can write in an exception saying that Eilistraeean clerics can't multi-class into Temple Guardian levels, as they're presumed to have already served their novitiate in such training. (I might even write a clerical equivalent of these sub-levels, if someone coaches me enough - I've got some ideas about it at the moment, but they're a little unfocused. )
quote:
I could go on a little, but I need a better idea of what fighter levels you are substituting first. I am rather concerned about skill point allocation rules as well. A guard does not have to be that proficient in music IMO.
A straight-up fighter, no. A fighter who guards and serves a temple devoted to a goddess of dance and music, who wishes to embody her way - compassion, altruism, generosity, and a pronounced enjoyment of the expressive arts - would do well to take up those arts themselves, yes? Thus the added class skills and requirements for skill-point expenditure. They're meant more to encourage RP than to buff the character's stats - are they a great dancer? A wonderful singer? A generalist performer? Do their flute solos bring others to riotous applause or tears of sorrow? And so on.
That said, I may just drop it to a few bonus points to go into Perform and Sense Motive skills (perhaps cross-class), rather than directly increasing available skill-points.
quote:
Also it is not clear to me, are these subsitution for Fighter level 1 and 2, and do not occur at any other level?
Yes, they're meant for fighter levels 1 and 2. As the original post noted, I was going to do a fourth-level sub to give the Temple Guardian the Evasion special ability as well, but I couldn't 'cost' it properly. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 15:18:11
Where do I start?
"usually comes to the temple as a child and is trained from an early age, often with the hope that they will eventually become one of the Dark Maiden’s venerated Sword Dancers"
Eilistraee communities are sometimes very short lived, coming as a child one might not live long enough. Also if wanting to become a sword dancer must be female and have elf blood. I would remove the young age and indicate that some may become Sword Dancers instead of them hoping to become one as non female elf blood are prohitbited from ever becoming one.
The subsitution levels remove the fighter bonus feat?
The never heavy armor does not work either, other classes including Cleric will grant this ability without the character having to spend a feat. This would be better treated as if wearung heavy aror some abilities do not work.
I could go on a little, but I need a better idea of what fighter levels you are subsituting first. I am rather concerned about skill point allocation rules as well. A guard does not have to be that proficent in music IMO.
Also it is not clear to me, are these subsitution for Fighter level 1 and 2, and do not occur at any other level?
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