| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 19:22:29
I was looking over some of the Eberron races, and I have to say this first. The Eberron races are definately better than several of the races that have been put into the core books in the last year or so. That having been said, not everything should cross setting lines. My question pertains specifically with two races from Eberron which I actually don't think would cause too much trouble in Faerun.
Shifters are essentially weretouched, humans that have had lycanthropic heritage in their past, but the taint in their blood is not so strong to actually make them lycanthropes. I can see a shifter line coming about from humans that might have had the cure lifted from them, but some traces of it still come through. I could also see some isolated groups of Uthgart that might have some bloodlines that are touched by the tribes totem, for example.
Changelings are much like shifters, where there is doppleganger blood in a families line that allows the changeling to do some minor shape shifting. This also seems like something that would be possible in the Realms, especially since dopplegangers have had so many dealings in Waterdeep, for example.
So, have my words sparked my fellow scribes to throw me off the battlments or go trolling for the Cyrinishad beneath the Keep, or do I make some degree of sense? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Eremite |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 09:01:13
Perhaps they are Gond's idea for a gift to Tempus: living war machines that can still feel pain and fear... even if they can't bleed.... ;) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 05:22:04
Not to stir the pot, but I did just do a quick read over of the material on Tempus in both Faiths and Pantheons and Faiths and Avatars, and a couple of points come to mind:
Gond is allied to Tempus according to his entry.
Tempus wants to protect warfare as an institution that is respected and has rules to it.
Tempus favors the actions of bold warriors.
I can see you making an arguement that he wouldn't want to create an army, since it doesn't utilize an existing warriors with a passion for warfare.
On the other hand, I can see warforged, being living constructs, perhaps being Tempus' and Gond's compromise on the matter, since it would be a created army, but one composed of sentient beings that are capable of bravery (or cowardice) and not just mindlessly ordered into battle.
Yes, I know, I didn't resolve a darn thing. I just wanted to point out that you could find support for both ideas in the dogma of Tempus. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 05:10:51
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I still don't understand what constructs having (or not having) blood has to do with this?
Tempus strikes me as a warrior of an almost primitive sort exemplified by a warrior battered and bleeding after departing the field of battle in triumph.
Magic is not his way: his way is about flesh and steel, individual skill and luck and the cost of battle as often represented by wounds and scars. I just don't see constructs (even with the living construct subtype: yes, I've read the Eberron material) as being consistent with what I see as the essential flavour of Tempus.
I don't have my books with me so I can't cite particular parts of his dogma etc... in support. Anyway, trust the above explains my particular POV.
Fair enough.
I was actually looking at these hypothetical constructs in terms of their functionality... rather than just their composition, since I imagine that Tempus is a fairly utilitarian deity -- using all he can to ensure the promotion of warfare. An army of living constructs would, I believe, factor into that ideaology.
And a point to note... I was only regarding these constructs as useful during the Time of Troubles. As such, I didn't think Tempus could really afford to be all that *picky* when it came to defending his terrestial worshipper bases from attacks by rival deities.
But, as I said above... that is fair enough  .
|
| Eremite |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 05:02:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I still don't understand what constructs having (or not having) blood has to do with this?
Tempus strikes me as a warrior of an almost primitive sort exemplified by a warrior battered and bleeding after departing the field of battle in triumph.
Magic is not his way: his way is about flesh and steel, individual skill and luck and the cost of battle as often represented by wounds and scars. I just don't see constructs (even with the living construct subtype: yes, I've read the Eberron material) as being consistent with what I see as the essential flavour of Tempus.
I don't have my books with me so I can't cite particular parts of his dogma etc... in support. Anyway, trust the above explains my particular POV.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 04:54:12
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
And all I am saying is that, as bloodless constructs, they don't strike me as the sort of servitor that Tempus would create or favour.
I still don't understand what constructs having (or not having) blood has to do with this?
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
Anarchic and maybe also the bloodstained template from one of the Perilous Gateways/Trail of Tears articles...?
Hmmm....
See here:- http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20011212b
|
| Eremite |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 04:37:20
Anarchic and maybe also the bloodstained template from one of the Perilous Gateways/Trail of Tears articles...?
Hmmm.... |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 04:33:23
Hm . . . warforged with the anarchic template? |
| Eremite |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 04:32:11
And all I am saying is that, as bloodless constructs, they don't strike me as the sort of servitor that Tempus would create or favour. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 04:27:47
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage (snip)Remember though... warforged aren't traditional lifeless constructs like the Inevitables... They are considered "living" constructs -- and thus have traits that define them as something more than just metal and gears.
Yes, I am aware of that but they don't bleed so I can't imagine Tempus being interested.
Whether they bleed or not really isn't an issue -- Tempus would see them as warrior-servitors, nothing more.
quote:
Also, the inevitables, as you would be aware, are creatures of pure Law. I can't imagine thr CN Tempus using such exemplars of lawfulness as models for his troops.
I didn't say that he would. I was merely usually the artificial "construct-ness" of the Inevitables as a comparison against the living constructs that are the warforged.
|
| Eremite |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 02:08:38
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage (snip)Remember though... warforged aren't traditional lifeless constructs like the Inevitables... They are considered "living" constructs -- and thus have traits that define them as something more than just metal and gears.
Yes, I am aware of that but they don't bleed so I can't imagine Tempus being interested.
Also, the inevitables, as you would be aware, are creatures of pure Law. I can't imagine thr CN Tempus using such exemplars of lawfulness as models for his troops.
|
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 16:01:52
Oh you guys beat me to the shifter/Malar concept!  Other than that I have no other use for Eberron. As far as merging other campaign setting stuff into the Realms I was thinking of doing what the Judges Guild has done with their Wilderlands 3E upgrade in that they have given certain humans from different parts of the world plusses and bonuses much like elven and dwarven subraces. Giving them favored classes, bonus to skill checks and different life spans etc. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 15:41:45
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Shifters could perhaps be found among the churches of Selune and Malar as they have ties to Were creatures a shifter could be to Lycanthropes as Tieflings are to Half Fiends.
Stop reading my mind, Dargoth. 
Imagine if Myth Llharast were to rejoin the Realms, popping the extradimensional barriers that keep it out of the Realms. After so many centuries with lycanthropes within it, you could easily unleash many full lycanthropes and shifters onto the Realms easily.
I also like them as elite and honored troops for Malar. You know--full religious rites to transfer the "gift of Malar" onto a blessed acolyte or priest and remake them as shifters.
Good ideas all around in this thread. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 13:41:51
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
I don't think constructs suit Tempus, however. Perhaps the Red Knight but (certainly!) not Tempus.
Perhaps it was the idea of Tempus to create them... but Gond added the final "mechanical" nature of the constructs.
Remember though... warforged aren't traditional lifeless constructs like the Inevitables... They are considered "living" constructs -- and thus have traits that define them as something more than just metal and gears.
|
| Eremite |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 13:02:28
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Deep Imaskar could be a good excuse for introducing warforged. The Imaskari were talented artificers, right? Now that they have begun to leave their secret enclave and travel about the world, they could be accompanied by warforged bodyguards. (snip)
As an alternative, I would personally use Raumathaur as the source of the warforged. Lost Empires of Faerun mentions that there are "storehouses" of war machines/constructs from the times of the wars with Narfell. My plans for my next campaign in the Unapproachable East may include such a "storehouse" with a warforged or two.
I don't think constructs suit Tempus, however. Perhaps the Red Knight but (certainly!) not Tempus.
Changelings are perfect for the Realms. Perhaps they are the result of the Unseen's breeding programmes... or the breeding programmes of their illithid sponsors?
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 02:29:11
I'm working on it friend Wooly .
|
| warlockco |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 02:29:00
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
A Lycanthropic Bloodline can be found in Unearthed Arcane.
The Bloodlines are just what you described, a distant heritage which alters the being slightly from the norm.
It also gives you advice on creating other bloodlines (where you could easily make up the Doppleganger one)
Good luck :)
I particularly like the Fey-Bloodline in there. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 02:15:18
Hey, Sage, how about a reply to that PM I sent?  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 02:10:16
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Now *that's* an interesting idea Sage! My one qualm with it is that I don't think the ToT lasted long enough for the gods to get that worried and then have enough time to research and create warforged. Still, that's a minor quibble. I'll have to remember that. Or perhaps one of the gods could have predicted the ToT and created the warforged ahead of time? (Sort of like how Bhaal knew he wouldn't survive and therefore started the whole Baldur's Gate saga)
True... but Tempus is usually quite "pro-active". He doesn't necessarily need to have completed the creation of the warforged, but rather laid out their construction for other disciples to follow -- which they may have once he was returned to godhood.
|
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 17:03:38
Now *that's* an interesting idea Sage! My one qualm with it is that I don't think the ToT lasted long enough for the gods to get that worried and then have enough time to research and create warforged. Still, that's a minor quibble. I'll have to remember that. Or perhaps one of the gods could have predicted the ToT and created the warforged ahead of time? (Sort of like how Bhaal knew he wouldn't survive and therefore started the whole Baldur's Gate saga) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 08:14:57
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Deep Imaskar could be a good excuse for introducing warforged. The Imaskari were talented artificers, right? Now that they have begun to leave their secret enclave and travel about the world, they could be accompanied by warforged bodyguards.
Lantan might be another good place for warforged. The church of Gond might have a forge.
Or ancient Netheril might have had a few forges laying around in secret places. Halruua might still have an active forge.
Good ideas Gray...
Or you could twist it another way. Perhaps the warforged in the Realms were of "divine" origin. During the darkest days of the Time of Troubles, Tempus, with a little assistance from Gond, experimented with the possibility of creating a "living" army of constructs to help defend his temples and places of worship. Unsure of how long they were to remain mortal, several gods began initiating plans to ensure their greater survival (and by that I mean, protecting their worshippers bases). The warforged Tempus conceived were derived for exactly that purpose.
This would limit the number of actual warforged of course... perhaps only a few dozen to protect the more important locations of Tempus worship.
And so, the question remains... What became of these warforged once Tempus was restored to godhood?
|
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 07:44:12
Kalashtar might be from the Narfell area. There could have been a pocket of Quori/Inspired that infested the area for a time. Impiltur might be another area.
Jhaamdath might also have used their psionic powers to contact the plane of dream and the Quori. There might have been Inspired living in the Jhaamdath region. Kalashtar could have shaken off the yoke of their Inspired opressors and have been living peacefully ever since in the Vilhon Reach.
Or the Border Kingdoms. That would work too for Kalashtar. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 07:39:46
Deep Imaskar could be a good excuse for introducing warforged. The Imaskari were talented artificers, right? Now that they have begun to leave their secret enclave and travel about the world, they could be accompanied by warforged bodyguards.
Lantan might be another good place for warforged. The church of Gond might have a forge.
Or ancient Netheril might have had a few forges laying around in secret places. Halruua might still have an active forge. |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 02:12:56
A Lycanthropic Bloodline can be found in Unearthed Arcane.
The Bloodlines are just what you described, a distant heritage which alters the being slightly from the norm.
It also gives you advice on creating other bloodlines (where you could easily make up the Doppleganger one)
Good luck :) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 01:30:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sage and I once (briefly) discussed bringing warforged to the Realms. I've a rough idea for doing so, but not as PCs, just as NPCs. My idea would have a dozen or less of these imitation warforged existing... And I'd not call them that; I'd have some other name that didn't call Eber-whatever to mind.
Aye... and as it happens, that idea, for me at least, became something else.
I tied the warforged to a creation from out of Acheron, along with the Maugs from the Fiend Folio. I'll find the link to my article over at planewalker.com if anyone is interested about crossing over races from one setting to another.
|
| Dargoth |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 00:09:41
Shifters could perhaps be found among the churches of Selune and Malar as they have ties to Were creatures a shifter could be to Lycanthropes as Tieflings are to Half Fiends.
Ive toyed with the idea of putting a dormant army of Warforged under WinterKeep in Raumathar they never recieved the order to activate duirng the war with Narfell..... |
| Arivia |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 23:59:41
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Actually, Raptorans and Goliaths were okay with me, though I would be more likely to allow Goliaths than Raptorans. Most of the races that I was thinking of were the "like human except" races in Magic of Incarnum, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Stormwrack, etc (and I would throw the Inspired into that one as well). Now when it comes to some of the other material in the Races books, well, not so convinced of its usefulness.
For some reason, I really like the aventi. I don't know why, but I just do. Wait, I do. Eric Polak's gorgeous art. *drool* As for the elan, I do think it's a good design space for psionics-it's been touched on quite a few times for arcane spellcasting, and touching upon it for psionics was a good idea. The inspired/empty vessels/kalashtar are really well-done, in my opinion-there's lots of good stuff there, but a large part of it is admittedly in Races of Eberron.
quote:
I was approaching the shifters from a completely game logic thing when I was analysing them, which is to say, someone with a bloodline that at one time had lycanthropy could logically have some effects left over.
That's fine-I just don't think they fit stylistically with the Realms.
quote:
The Warforged just remind me too much of droids . . . although at least they aren't all linked to a central processor.
Nah, I like the warforged, although they are a bit high-powered for an LA +0 race, IMO. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 22:03:59
Actually, Raptorans and Goliaths were okay with me, though I would be more likely to allow Goliaths than Raptorans. Most of the races that I was thinking of were the "like human except" races in Magic of Incarnum, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Stormwrack, etc (and I would throw the Inspired into that one as well). Now when it comes to some of the other material in the Races books, well, not so convinced of its usefulness.
I was approaching the shifters from a completely game logic thing when I was analysing them, which is to say, someone with a bloodline that at one time had lycanthropy could logically have some effects left over.
The Warforged just remind me too much of droids . . . although at least they aren't all linked to a central processor. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 22:02:04
One of the reasons I like FR is that it's a huge, magic-rich setting with many, many layers, so you can get away with throwing in a whole lot. I wouldn't have much problem with either shifters or changelings, though it'd have to be a player of mine, because I don't have any interest in moving them over myself.
And I actually did add warforged to my FR, though in a sort of back-handed way: Mine date from the end of the Crown Wars, where Aryvandaar was trying to fight every elf on Faerun, and in desperate need of warriors. One of their mages came up with the idea of warforged and actually created a Forge and several warforged, but the war ended before mass production could begin.
The warforged fled into very deep Underdark, taking the one working Forge with them. They found a cavern with a nice lava lake, way below anyone else, and have hung out there in isolation ever since. Since Eberron doesn't go into detail of warforged life (at least not in the two books I have), I decreed that they live exactly 1200 years, and that the Forge can only make 200 new warforged at a time, then taking 5 years to recharge.
They haven't been found by anyone yet, but they're in place, in case someone stubles over them.
(Sorry for rambling.) |
| Arivia |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 21:55:16
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I was looking over some of the Eberron races, and I have to say this first. The Eberron races are definately better than several of the races that have been put into the core books in the last year or so. That having been said, not everything should cross setting lines. My question pertains specifically with two races from Eberron which I actually don't think would cause too much trouble in Faerun.
I'm going to disagree with you about the new races-in my opinion, the raptorans, killoren and goliaths were at least as well done as the ones presented in the ECS.
quote:
Shifters are essentially weretouched, humans that have had lycanthropic heritage in their past, but the taint in their blood is not so strong to actually make them lycanthropes. I can see a shifter line coming about from humans that might have had the cure lifted from them, but some traces of it still come through. I could also see some isolated groups of Uthgart that might have some bloodlines that are touched by the tribes totem, for example.
Shifters seem to make thematic sense in the Realms, but I don't think they fit that well stylistically. They, along with a few other racial variants in Eberron, seem much more geared towards a game based on Eberron's swashbuckling style. In my head, I just can't get them to match up with the high fantasy style of and history of lycanthropes in the Realms.
quote:
Changelings are much like shifters, where there is doppleganger blood in a families line that allows the changeling to do some minor shape shifting. This also seems like something that would be possible in the Realms, especially since dopplegangers have had so many dealings in Waterdeep, for example.
Agreed-Changelings do fit the Realms perfectly. They'd be much rarer then they are in Eberron, but they could be really interesting when done well. They were number one on my list of "things that need to be imported into the Realms from Eberron"(number 2 being warforged, number 3 being living spells).
Why warforged: I'd actually only use these as NPCs, and not really even as warforged. The reason that they're so great, though, is that they are essentially 0-1 HD Medium constructs with an Advancement line of "By character class". As the dread guard got bumped up a CR in the transition to 3.5, they fill a very badly needed niche of the adaptable, low-CR construct. Don't call them warforged, don't even necessarily keep the living construct type, but they're excellent when your low-level band of adventurers is exploring a Raumathari-styled stonedelve, you need stats for the construct guards in the main chamber, and you're either too pressed for time or too unfamiliar with the monster creation rules to put a set of stats together yourself for them...
Why living spells: They're really, really fun, and they pretty much existed before they were brought in in CoS:W(I'm thinking of the Fallen Lands and the Ring of Gray Flames).
Regarding racial PrCs: Off the top of my head, the only one I'd allow would be the chameleon, and that's not even specific to the Eberron races. A quick look through RoE says that the cabinet trickster might fit the Unseen or members of any other druuth fairly well, and recasters might be adaptable as an alternate organization to incantatrixes. Renegade mastermakers have a bit of possibility too, as mentioned in their adaptation entry. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 21:32:30
Imitation Warforged . . . I like that. Somehow I just pictured a gnome selling knockoff Warforged from the back of a cart. "Psst, buddy . . . you look like you could use a construct . . . it just so happens these fell off the back of a horsecart, so I can let you have them cheap." |
|
|
