| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 15:20:41
Let me pose a question to you all. What relationship do you suppose these deities have?
I know on the surface it seems very straightforward and simple, but do you think that their utter contempt for their mother may drive these godlings to ally themselves ever? I am not talking about anything long term as they are both chaotic - I am talking about a single mission they might send their priestesses on to really screw with Lolth?
Look at WotSQ - Both deities had their minions trying to take a stab at their mother. If they would have worked together, they may have accomplished that very thing.
C-Fb |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 03:45:36
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I hadn't thought of the sleep poison like that. Good call, K. I guess that would be a use of the poison - that way they could interrogate each Drow afterward to see if their intentions were pure, or not.
C-Fb
I have spent some time considering the matter, there again I played good Drow before I heard of "lavender eyes" or even Eilistraee of course the poison = evil became an issue with some I played with. Of course sleep poison is not deadly as oposed to other poisons so clearly less evil, if evil at all. I would expect Vhaeraun followers would also use sleep poison, though just likely rob the tragets and let them sleep taking their chances with fate. *G*
Clearly I would expect captives by Eilstraee followers to be questioned both magical and mundanely.
Oh side note my one human Preistess got critised for trying to kill a slaver that had coldly killed a few bystanders. I did believe the aparent vil justified summery execution, others thought my Priestess was a little too Chaotic or Evil. Oh target was not a Drow even. There are ranges of what can happen and certainly one can get killed by a Good Drow. The call at the moment is based on what the character sees. I thought the death was justified, others wanted to extract information, then give trial before convicting and killing. My Charater reply was can speak with dead, though that spell does offer some problems (as do most divination spells do). |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 02:38:21
I hadn't thought of the sleep poison like that. Good call, K. I guess that would be a use of the poison - that way they could interrogate each Drow afterward to see if their intentions were pure, or not.
C-Fb |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 02:31:09
quote:
Dogma: Be always kind, except in battle with evil. Encourage happiness everywhere. Learn and teach new songs, dances, and the flowing dance of skilled swordwork. Promote harmony between the races. Befriend strangers, shelter those without homes, and feed the hungry. Repay rudeness with kindness. Repay violence with swift violence so that those who cause it are quickly dealt with. Aid drow in distress and give them the Lady's message: "A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace and live beneath the sun again where trees and flowers grow."
"Repay violence with swift violence" "Aid drow in distress" these two things sometimes opose each other, however even with drawn blade it does not mean death. An Eilistraee follower will clearly defend thenselves and might kill when forced to blades. However an Eilistraee follower will not start a battle unless they know target is evil.
Further 2nd Edition provided a little more in dogma quote:
Dogma: Aid the weak, strong, grateful, and churlish alike; be always
kind, save in battle with evil. Encourage happiness everywhere; lift
hearts with kind words, jests, songs, and merriment. Learn how to cook
game and how best to hunt it. Learn new songs, dances, and ways with
weapons, and spices, and recipes, and pass this learning on whenever
possible. Learn how to play, make, and repair musical instruments.
Practice music and sword-work. Defend and aid all folk, promoting
harmony between the races.
Strangers are your friends. The homeless must be given shelter from
storms, under your own roof if need be. Repay rudeness with kindness.
Repay violence with swift violence, that the fewest may be hurt and
danger fast removed from the land.
The faithful must aid drow who are in distress. If the distressed are
fighting with other drow, the combat is to be stopped with as little
bloodshed as possible. So long as the drow met with are not working
evil on others, they are to be aided and given the message of
Eilistraee: "A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the
Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again,
where trees and flowers grow."
"The faithful must aid drow who are in distress. If the distressed are fighting with other drow, the combat is to be stopped with as little bloodshed as possible." is the most opertive phase for this discussion. As long as they are not trying to do evil, their lives are not to be taken. In part I have viewed it Lolth followers use sleep poison in order to capture people for the live sacafices, Eilistraee followers use sleep poisin to end combat as quickly and as bloodless as posible so that the message can be given. Of course truely evil will be killed unless a Sineater is about *G*
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| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 02:22:41
I said, if he was in a group of Vhaeraunites paying lip service, he'd probably be wearing some V stuff, right? Well, if he has the blade out to defend himself and has the V stuff on not to get killed by his mates - well, would Eil's priestesses really spend that much time figuring out if each and every one in the group was evil?
I know by himself, they would give him the chance, but the posts have been about a Drow within a group he didn't agree with or believe in, but used it as a means to freedom.
C-Fb |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 01:44:32
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
... and he drew a blade to defend himself - well, Eil's priestess would strike him down without a second thought.
Would they, though?
Wouldn't a priestess of Elistraee be likely to notice the faithful of another deity if the faithful wore something like a holy symbol or other identifying mark or item?
And if a mysterious male drow didn't make his faith obvious in some way, wouldn't Elistraeen faithful err on the side of caution if the male drow was encountered on the surface…especially if he’s drawn his blade but isn’t attacking? After all he might be trying to survive top-side like the Elistraeen are.
Chaotic Good doesn't always mean "kill and ask questions later". There needs to be a compelling reason to do so.
J. Grenemyer |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 03:08:12
True - but if the CG drow had no idea who these crazy surface priestess were (since not everyone has knowledge of the Dark Maiden), and he drew a blade to defend himself - well, Eil's priestess would strike him down without a second thought.
It's tough being a Good Drow...
C-Fb |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 02:45:05
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
No K, I understand that - but what would keep a part of Eilistraee followers from slaying the party, including the chaotic good character paying lip service? Detect good is not a very specific spell, it is an area and a feeling. Leaves room for a lot of mistakes.
C-Fb
Well my view of it is the dogma of no Drow should die unless doing Evil. I view as a feguent use of Drow Sleep posin (which I do not consider an evil act). If the parties come to blades any that weild a blade in contest clearly hazzards death. That is the fortune of war. Eilistraeeians do not seek to kill, but clearly will kill if themselves or others are in danger. If yor CG Drow seeks to kill a follower of the Dark Maiden s/he will be doisabled or killed (or ay least the duty of a follower, the good of course could lose battle and die.)
In some respects it depends on how the DM runs the game and what alignment wise is permitted. Followers of the good deity try to avoid taking life, but certainly train in how to take a life.
Quick to pffer a hand of help, quicker to strike evil down. Npt sure it works in RL and not even sure how well it works in the Realms on a case by case review.
Draw blade againswt a Drow expect combat that might cost you your life. It does not matter which deity the Drow follows, they will defend themselves. The same can be said for Humans, Drawves, Orcs, Goblins and so on.
The only difference between Good Drow and those other aligned is that the Good Drow offer a chance for a difference type of life. Often a one time deal with seconds to decide. |
| Lord of Bones |
Posted - 20 Oct 2005 : 19:13:39
Interesting thought, and an interesting premise for a game (if you don't mind things getting a bit chaotic now and again, when it comes to ethos.)
The Drow deities are probably the only pantheon where I think there exists only one alliance; Lolth and Selvetarm. And that is a relationship of subservience. Kiaransalee is probably more likely to ally with Vhaeraun in my opinion. Ghaunadaur... Well who would trust a big mountain of ooze to stick to an alliance? |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 20 Oct 2005 : 18:58:04
No K, I understand that - but what would keep a part of Eilistraee followers from slaying the party, including the chaotic good character paying lip service? Detect good is not a very specific spell, it is an area and a feeling. Leaves room for a lot of mistakes.
C-Fb |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Oct 2005 : 15:25:53
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
What I mean is - what if the chaotic good drow was going along with all of the Vhaeraunites because that is his only way to the surface, where he longs to be. He doesn't know of Eilistraee and does things in the name of Vhaeraun. Is he good or evil? He just wants to get to the surface.
C-Fb
Well Eilistraee followers do not attack Drow on sight and there is no reason for them to believe all followers of Vhaeraun are evil. As far as conversion goes some are converted from following Lolth (whs followers all are not Evil). Also travel with even an evil party does not make that person Evil. If the Good character wants to reach the surface because of stories told about it, he clould even travel with a Lolthian raiding party and then get lost. Joining a party that all follow one deity does not result in that person following that deity. The person might have to give lip service in order to travel with such a party, but in reality can still hold true to internal beliefs (A different deity or no deity). |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 20 Oct 2005 : 14:36:26
What I mean is - what if the chaotic good drow was going along with all of the Vhaeraunites because that is his only way to the surface, where he longs to be. He doesn't know of Eilistraee and does things in the name of Vhaeraun. Is he good or evil? He just wants to get to the surface.
C-Fb |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 20 Oct 2005 : 06:51:53
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, that brings me to a point - what if a Drow is a follower of Vhaeraun because he has no other choice... meaning what if he is chaotic good, and follows Vhaeraun because that would have led his path to the surface. But how can a follower of Eilistraee pick and choose once the battle is joined? You can't run around detecting in the middle of a battle of drow...
I’m not sure what question you’re asking.
I guess if you’re wondering how a Vhaeraun-follower and an Elistraee-follower could learn of each other without slaying each other, well then I suppose it’s possible for the Elistraee-follower to witness an act of compassion in battle from the Chaotic Good Vhaeraun follower, who may be going through a crisis of faith that stays his hand from delivering the killing blow to a foe.
J. Grenemyer |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 20 Oct 2005 : 06:42:39
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
There is a flaw in this scenario. Shevarash hates Vhaeraun but he tolerates Elistraee, which means her followers are off-limits for his followers.
I disagree.
In this case, “to tolerate” doesn't mean off-limits at all. If Shevarash-worshipping elves come across Elistraeen, they'll not be kind, nor friendly, nor helpful to drow, because they hate them..
They just won't kill the Elistraeen on site*, because their faith teaches a grudging tolerance for these drow.
But on the other hand, if those same Shevarash worshipping elves are confronted by Elistraee-worshipers who mean to stop the elves from slaying other drow, those Elistraeen worshippers are as good as dead. That is, they become perfectly valid targets for the wrath of Shevarash' followers.
J. Grenemyer
[*And this assumes the Shevarash worshippers are truly faithful to Shevarash’ tenants and teachings. Like all other Deities, Shevarash counts amongst his faithful more beings who have him as their patron, than those who are clergy and truly worship him as such/follow his divine decrees (such as they are) to the letter. Therefore, I think an vengeance-minded Elf who keeps Shevarash as his patron is far more likely to slay on site a drow faithful to Elistraee than not. I doubt said elf will bother to ask what faith the drow keeps before he kills her, too.] |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 19 Oct 2005 : 15:31:21
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, that brings me to a point - what if a Drow is a follower of Vhaeraun because he has no other choice... meaning what if he is chaotic good, and follows Vhaeraun because that would have led his path to the surface. But how can a follower of Eilistraee pick and choose once the battle is joined? You can't run around detecting in the middle of a battle of drow...
Not all followers of Vhaeraun will be evil (for that matter not all that follow Lolth), however the dogma is such that the goals of the patron deity are different. No evil would not tend to be detected during a battle and followers could be simalarly aligned. The Clerics of a joint party might even be CN (that one step rule) and not be an evil member amonst any of them. The over all goal however is different. quote:
Unless you're this crazy paladin I once ran in 2e who detected evil every round... weird guy.
C-Fb
I said detected by action, word or magic. Evil can pretend to be good for a time so might get away with i in a quest to kill Lolth. The deities themselves however can not trust each other, which is what I thought we started with as the question. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 19 Oct 2005 : 14:22:37
Well, that brings me to a point - what if a Drow is a follower of Vhaeraun because he has no other choice... meaning what if he is chaotic good, and follows Vhaeraun because that would have led his path to the surface. But how can a follower of Eilistraee pick and choose once the battle is joined? You can't run around detecting in the middle of a battle of drow...
Unless you're this crazy paladin I once ran in 2e who detected evil every round... weird guy.
C-Fb |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 19 Oct 2005 : 09:08:42
Well Shevarash is not allied with Eilistraee certainly more tolerent of her followers. Eilistraee followers can not be tolerent of any Evil aligned Vhaeraun followers. quote:
Dogma: Be always kind, except in battle with evil.
leads to battle with many that follow Vhaeraun, though some might not be Evil aligned the goal of brother appears to be Evil within the alignment system.
I see followers of Lady Silverhair as quick with a kind hand and smile, but even quicker with a blade when Evil is detected (by word, action or spell). |
| khorne |
Posted - 19 Oct 2005 : 08:40:15
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
As to your last question: Yes, I think these two gods would consent to their faithful working together for some common purpose, but it’d have to be very much inline with the goals and beliefs of both gods. I believe they’d go so far as to inspire their faithful to work together when a common threat manifests itself, such as when a group of Epic Shevarash-worshipping Elves goes on a drow killing spree through the woods of Cormanthyr, systematically destroying every surface community founded by the faithful of either deity.
J. Grenemyer
There is a flaw in this scenario. Shevarash hates Vhaeraun but he tolerates Eilistraee, which means her followers are off-limits for his followers. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 19 Oct 2005 : 02:27:21
Despite the frequency with which the gods directly interact with mortals in the novels, in 'everyday' Faerûn I just don't think the gods should be thought of as being that much directly involved in the affairs of mortals. I.e. virtually no one-on-one communications.
There's a level of mortal-based free will involved (which includes the ability to make fantastically bad mistakes/decisions) that applies even to the followers of the Gods.
This is why I think Elistraee and Vhaeraun can’t say no to followers choosing to ally with the other god’s faithful or otherwise directly prevent such, because this would contradict the core concept of mortals having the ability to make such free willed decisions, as established by Ed Greenwood.
What these Gods can do instead is to manifest some kind of sign of their displeasure or grant a vision to the faithful during prayer or rest. They can also choose not to grant spells to any cleric that has chosen the wrong path. Or they can grant a vision to other faithful that implies they should stop (or perhaps aid) the actions of the followers in question.
As to your last question: Yes, I think these two gods would consent to their faithful working together for some common purpose, but it’d have to be very much inline with the goals and beliefs of both gods. I believe they’d go so far as to inspire their faithful to work together when a common threat manifests itself, such as when a group of Epic Shevarash-worshipping Elves goes on a drow killing spree through the woods of Cormanthyr, systematically destroying every surface community founded by the faithful of either deity.
In Cormanthyr, there are plenty of relics and ruins that tell of the time when the Drow (either through raiding from below or with the grudging permission of a Coronal) lived on the surface. I’m certain that Elistraee and Vhaeraun would call on their faithful to work together if something of great value in these ruins was threatened or about to be discovered by hostile drow (especially Lolth worshipping drow looking for said item, in order to keep those of the lesser drow faiths weak and uninformed as to their heritage and history).
J. Grenemyer |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 14:49:17
I should have been more clear - I meant do you think the gods would allow their mortals to align. Gods generally don't align unless they are attacking other deities or doing things of a deific proportion.
And since deicide isn't exactly happening everyday in Faerun, I meant to did you think they would ever tell their followers to work together for a common purpose (such as freeing some drow hypothetically trapped by Lolthians, etc.). I know Vhaeraun is a bit bitter about the whole banished to the Underdark thing, but, he is also really crafty.
C-Fb |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 07:23:12
Indeed I don't think so either, searching some info (http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-sshamath/Pantheon.htm#Eilistraee)I've noticed that Eillistrae only has a few enemies, the Underdark deities, specially the drow pantheon so would be unlikely she cooperates with the followers of Verhaun, even if is a battle against the Spider Queen, as long as it's impossible to battle together if you know the other side (Verhaun's followers) won't doubt in killing you any time they have the chance. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 05:42:53
I don't think the two Gods would necessarily ally with each other.
From a DMing and Realms standpoint, I think it's better to look to the followers (read: fallible, mortal creatures) and what motivates them as opposed to the divinities the followers worship.
From that POV, I think it's very likely the faithful and/or clergy of these gods would work together, but only in those instances where personal survival, group survival or some similar tenant between the two faiths was threatened. Methinks these alliances would be very temporary and exist only for as long as it’s practical and safe to do so.
I don’t think the shared desire to see the Drow back on the surface (and its effect on two faiths that are otherwise enemies on principle) should be underestimated, either.
J. Grenemyer |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 03:52:09
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
And since Vhaeraun likes the surface so much, perhaps he could convince Eilistraee and her clergy to help out (he'd be lying about his intentions, of course).
That's why I think such an alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun is unlikely to be very productive. The Dark Maiden has a thing for beauty... and there is beauty in truth, such as we know.
Let us not forget also that Eilistraee has fought against Vhaeraun's corrupted vision for many centuries already. This is something she would have to wrestle with herself before she would even consider an alliance with him.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 02:48:22
I do not say imposible, just unlikely as both would be waiting for the other to betray the deal.
Eilistraee would be desire the of driving out Evil from her brother, which might mean killing him (though Sineater might be an option, *G*)
Vhaeraun would be wanting to bring sister to the Dark side or kill her.
Every step of plan would need to be followed to the letter or one would claim trust broken. As they are currently written they can not trust each other. At best they could agree to attack mother from two different directions and ask heros/followers to save their blades/attacks for Lolth and Lolthians.
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| Kianna |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 02:20:49
Maybe only if it was a guaranteed success.... |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 02:17:33
I meant more or less they might join up when the mission had a very strong aim - like screwing with their mother, which both deities seem to like to do.
And since Vhaeraun likes the surface so much, perhaps he could convince Eilistraee and her clergy to help out (he'd be lying about his intentions, of course).
Deities are wont to do many strange things. I think it might be a good story arc.
C-Fb |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 16:55:25
Domains: Chaos, Drow, Evil, Travel, Trickery vs.
Domains: Chaos, Charm, Drow, Elf, Good, Moon, Portal
They share Chaos (which might might hard to work together)
however are oposed on Good-Evil outlook.
Sharing Drow has little impact as Sister welcomes all races as equals and brother sees Drow supperior to all, surface elves better then other races. The goals for the surface is different as well. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 16:30:46
I'd have to agree.
Additionally, Vhaeraun has never been known as a great "team player". Like most drow deities (Eilistraee is the exception of course), Vhaeraun's main goals seem to center on advancing his own agendas among those groups of drow with which he has some influence.
Working with Eilistraee might be a means to an end for Vhaeraun... but I think Eilistraee is smart enough to realise what is motivating Vhaeraun's action in such an alliance -- an those motivations will be a major obstacle in the path of any type of agreement between the two deities.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 16:07:37
Demihuman Deities says they are foes, so I doubt they would work together and if they did it wouldn't be for very long. :) |
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