| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Adam_Garou |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 14:19:17
One of the most powerful spells in 1e and 2e D&D (and one of the most under-utilized, in the novels, at least) is the shape change spell. Giving the wizard in question the power to assume any form he or she wishes for roughly 2-3 hours, the possibilities inherent in this spell are staggering if you stop and think about it.
Basically, you can become any type of non-unique, non-deity creature; that eliminates demigods and specific devils, but you can still become any type of dragon or giant--and that's just the beginning.
Have any of you successfully used this spell in your campaigns, and if so, how did you maximize its effectiveness? Were you running a PC who favored the form of a gold dragon with its fire and chlorine gas breath weapons? Or were you DMing and running an NPC mage with a liking for the form of a titan (a la Lanaxis from Troy Denning's The Titan of Twilight)?
In my current campaign, we're not QUITE to the point of having a PC mage who can use this spell, but we're getting there. I want to make sure both players and DMs utilize this powerful magic effectively, but I don't want it to be abused.
Any thoughts or stories you can share would be appreciated, as most of the novels seem to disregard a lot of the usefulness of this spell. Why do you suppose that is? Is it just too powerful to write about effectively?
The only references to wizards using this spell that I've found so far in the Realms novels are summarized below:
*Gromph Baenre in the WotSQ series--uses the spell to take on the form of Prath Baenre, and then of an undead shadow
*Dyrr the lichdrow in the WotSQ series--uses the spell to take on the form of a blackstone gigant (presumably this was via the shape change spell rather than polymorph self, as he gained the petrifying touch abilities of the creature as well as its form)
*A Magelord of Athalantar in Elminster: The Making of a Mage, I think--uses the spell to assume the form of a dire wolf, and then hunts human prey in the wilds of the forest
*The Simbul/Alassra Silverhand--has, as I understand it, a permanent shape change spell cast on her person, but typically only uses it to assume the form of ravens, bats, or even forks (at least, in a DRAGON magazine article).
Somehow, for these incredibly powerful wizards, these examples just don't seem an effective employment of the magic. Again, any ideas on how you've used the spell in your campaigns (including what forms the wizard took on and in which situations) would be most welcome.
Thanks! |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 23 Oct 2005 : 14:07:31
Try Pit Fiend.
Unless your enemy boasts specific anti-planar spells, a swath of death spells, disintegrate or similar things that ignore regeneration... Well, he should hope to have many spells with the [Good] descriptor or a good aligned silver weapon, because without them he's not going to take you down.
Plus, you get excellent melee and spell-like abilities, reach and fly speed to boot! |
| Faraer |
Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 14:30:06
Obviously authors write magic to look and advance the drama a certain way and to reveal certain relationships between the spellcaster and the rest of the world, rather than on the basis of game-rules evaluations. There are many spells (whether published or not) that make the caster better at fighting, so shape change is going to be cast for this purpose by a mage who (a) wants to fight close-up and (b) displays a tendency to shift or disguise her nature or appearance. Changing one's shape is a mythologically amd psychologically powerful (and physically stressful) event that authors won't deploy carelessly or for its side-effects. It's the same answer to why the main characters in Star Wars are humans and not aliens, and why most known Realms wizards don't have familiars: they're individual characters who it would be distracting to show with built-in mini-sidekicks, whatever the game-rule benefits of a familiar.
Comparably, one of the themes in the Realms is the contrast between those who exploit magic, using it calculatingly as a tool, and those who embrace the Art. This doesn't mean any character/player who does what you suggest is the former type, but it's a consideration in this setting and in terms of your not wanting the spell abused. |
| Adam_Garou |
Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 13:27:16
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I didn't mean that at all, and I don't make negative personal comments on message boards. I was answering your direct question 'Why do you suppose that is?'
Frankly Faraer, I don't know you well enough to know whether you make a habit of posting negative personal comments on message boards. In the interests of not getting off on the wrong foot any farther, I'm glad to hear you say that. But I would hope you can understand how I might take your comment the way I did--as it appears I'm not the only one who drew that (apparently incorrect) conclusion.
So, to be sure I understand, you are saying that the reason the spell is rarely utilized in the novels (which was the context of my "Why do you suppose that is?" question) is because it's a "meaningless powergaming weapon in an arsenal"? Or do you mean that, in the context of the novels, the spell doesn't reveal enough about the wizard's character?
Maybe I just don't understand the distinction you're making here. Can you clarify?
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Another factor, of course, is simply that all spells aren't available to everyone.
Very true. And for my group, because we've all agreed that we want to bring the spell into our campaign, the PC wizards will most probably find the spell in the spellbook of the NPC wizard they will have to defeat--after he/she uses the spell against them. That we, we figure there's no doubt that they've earned the right to such powerful magic--it's kind of a throwback to the original 1e modules where you had to (for example) defeat a bunch of salamanders and fire elementals in order to find the +3 frost brand sword that would have made it much EASIER to defeat them. The PCs have to prove that they don't really NEED the magic (or the weapon) in order to be worthy to bear it.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Tenser's tranformation was created by Gary Gygax as a half-joke about his son Ernie's habit of having Tenser charge into combat after exhausting his spells.
Interesting--that I did not know. Back in the original Greyhawk Adventures book (a 2e accessory), I saw a LOT of Tenser spells that were directly related to warrior skills: Tenser's Deadly Strike, (which, I think, maximized the damage done by a warrior in melee for a certain number of rounds), Tenser's Running Warrior, (which as I recall allowed a spell recipient normally entitled to two attacks per round to make one attack, run to just about any other point on the battlefield, and still make his second attack in the same round) etc. Nice bit of trivia regarding the background of a classic character.  |
| Faraer |
Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 01:13:52
quote:
Originally posted by Adam_Garou
As I said, I understood that Faraer was making a personal comment about the quality of my gaming group, and I didn't see such a comment as constructive in the least. If in fact it wasn't intended in that way, then I apologize.
I didn't mean that at all, and I don't make negative personal comments on message boards. I was answering your direct question 'Why do you suppose that is?'
I've never played in a campaign with a PC who could cast 9th-level magic. Another factor, of course, is simply that all spells aren't available to everyone.
Tenser's tranformation was created by Gary Gygax as a half-joke about his son Ernie's habit of having Tenser charge into combat after exhausting his spells. |
| Adam_Garou |
Posted - 20 Sep 2005 : 21:08:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't feel his comment was unconstructive...
And you're certainly entitled to that opinion, as he is. But I'm afraid I did take his comment as a gross generalization of either myself or members of my gaming group as powergaming munchkins rather than as players and DMs who want to take full advantage of the power of the spell itself. If that wasn't his intent, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. If it was, then I stand by my words and I disagree (respectfully) with both of you.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...
Me, if I'm an 18th+ level wizard, and I find myself in melee combat, my first move is going to be to get out of melee combat. Once I've got some distance from my enemies, then I start raining arcane death upon their heads.
Again, that's your opinion, which I certainly believe you're entitled to. Most of the time, that's precisely what these PC and NPC wizards are likely to do--but I don't feel it's the least bit out-of-character for one of them to assume the form of a dragon or giant or celestial or whatever, if it maximizes the party's chance to survive.
Me personally (and note that this IS just my opinion), I think a PC wizard--especially one who just learned the spell--would be sorely tempted to revel in the ferocity and power of his/her alternate form, despite the danger it may put him/her in. Imagine you're running a character like, say, Raistlin from Dragonlance--frail, weak, sickly, etc. And your PC hears rumors of a spell that would allow him to change his form into that of (theoretically) the most powerful non-divine creatures in existence. Somehow, I couldn't justify a character like that forgoing a chance to learn the shape change spell and using it to its fullest potential. That, to me, would be disregarding the PC's in-character desires entirely.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...
Yes, shape change allows a wizard to be a tank. But there are better uses of the spell, and it's not really the nature of wizards to be tanks.
And again, I can see your point, but I respectfully disagree with the broad statement you're making. Making a generalization like that can be used as a guide for inexperienced players, but it can also just as easily be used to hamstring creative playing. I submit that if a PC wizard has been told all his life how weak, sickly, and puny he is, he will probably at some point WANT to be a "tank", at least for a little while. And with this spell, he can.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Faraer may not have answered in the way you like, but he brings up a valid point.
Well, what I would have "liked" was a list of examples of ways the spell has been used (for good or ill) in his campaigns, which I thought was made fairly clear in my original posts. Instead of going straight to the dragons, he could have mentioned something like having a PC assume the form of a rust monster when fighting an iron golem. A rust monster is about the size of a dog and is hardly a "tank"... although it COULD eat one. Thus, it's a not-so-powerful (and not-so-obvious) form to choose--but it's perfect for that situation.
As I said, I understood that Faraer was making a personal comment about the quality of my gaming group, and I didn't see such a comment as constructive in the least. If in fact it wasn't intended in that way, then I apologize.
So there's no other confusion (and because I'd really like some more input  ):
What I'd like to know are some examples of the ways the spell has been used in your games (whether by a DM running an NPC or a player running a PC wizard). And it doesn't have to be dragons or giants or celestials or demons or whatever--something subtle and thoughtful is just fine.
Maybe it's a rust monster chowing down on an iron golem...
Maybe it's a banshee/groaning spirit that wails in the middle of a gathered group of enemies and then teleports away...
Maybe it's a xorn tunneling out of a lightless, soon-to-be-airless pit trap.
Maybe it's something incorporeal (as was suggested by warlockco), to gain the defensive bonuses, or maybe it's a rakshasa (which in 1e and 2e, at least, was immune to all spells of 1st - 8th level, I think).
And in answer to CrennenFaerieBane, yes, the shape change spell, unlike polymorph self brings with it the powers of the alternate form as well. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 20 Sep 2005 : 15:21:38
Question - since my 2ed books aren't near me, is Shapechange the one where you inherit the powers as well, correct? It might be helpful to shapechange into a Death Knight or a Rakshasha... those are pretty powerful monsters in which to do other things besides enter into the melee at first chance.
C-Fb |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 20 Sep 2005 : 07:15:13
Well, to get started with a brief reply:
Sure Wizards should join combat when they have access to Shapechange...when it's warranted.
Say the party Paladin and Monk are both down, those characters cohorts are both down, and it's up to the two remaining PC Wizards (and their cohorts) to think of a way to hold of a flight of eight Lance Wielding, Red Dragon riding Githyanki Cavalry and the Colossal B’kallash Dreadnaught (think of an Astral Dreadnaught interbred with a Red Dragon by Dragon Worshipping Githyanki Zealots) they're flanking; the sum of whom compose the remaining enemy force bent on slaying the PCs.
Enter one PC Wizard who assumes the largest Gold Dragon form he can manage via Shapechange and bravely confronts the Astral Dreadnaught in one on one melee to hold it off, and takes hits from the Dreadnaught and from flyby attacks by the Githyanki as they fly past. This maneuver is a gamble on the PCs part: the player knows he’ll have extra hit points from the Dragon Form, but like a sorely wounded Barbarian coming out of a Rage he’ll die if one of those Red Dragons thinks to try and dispel his Shapechange after the Dreadnaught and Githyanki tear into him for a whole lot of damage.
Meanwhile, the other PC Wizard chooses to ignore the fast-charging Githyanki and uses Shapechange to become a Leonal (a type of Celestial [Guardinal] found in the Monster Manual, page 141), so that he can temporarily gain the ability to use Lay on Hands as a Paladin, and heal at least one PC before the Githyanki arrive.
This exact scenario played itself out in my Forgotten Realms campaign, when the players were exploring a drifting mass of stone on the Astral Plane (the stone was part of the dead [in my game] form of the Tri-Partite god of which Aumanator was a part of). The players barely managed to Plane Shift back to Faerûn, where the Gold Dragon PC (still very wounded) had to fly his spell-spent and nearly dead companions over the Storm Horns and back into Cormyr proper before they found a safe place to hole up (the players thought the Githyanki might just chase them into the Prime).
In closing, and with respect to Faraer, I don’t think how a player uses Shapechange should be taken as a measure of that player’s personal character or roleplaying ability; it most certainly shouldn’t be used to judge what kind of gamer they are.
Just like the false old Gygaxian notion of, “If you don’t play by the AD&D rules, you simply aren’t playing DnD,” pigeonholing a player as a munchkin power gamer for using Shapechange on his PC to assume a creature/NPC mauling monster is simply wrong.
Anyone watching my campaign would witness the two PC Wizards do exactly that, when it’s warranted. They’d also see my players roleplay in character, weigh the greater consequences of their actions (again, in character) and use whatever spells and character abilities in their arsenal that best lets them advance the goals of the party and keep everyone alive.
And yes, that’s a short reply.
To review: In addition to and including the above, Shapechange can be a bane and boon in 3E. Mages can heal other PCs with it (Guardinal Forms), rapidly heal themselves with it (Hydra form), gain a high fly speed with perfect maneuverability from it (Will O’ the Wisp) use it to make themselves a meat shield and gain a breath weapon from it (Dragon Forms), but also turn themselves into big, obvious targets that will suffer lots of damage quickly.
J. Grenemyer |
| warlockco |
Posted - 20 Sep 2005 : 06:59:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't feel his comment was unconstructive...
Besides, wizards have spells, so they shouldn't be in melee combat. Especially wizards who are high enough in level to cast spells like shape change.
Me, if I'm an 18th+ level wizard, and I find myself in melee combat, my first move is going to be to get out of melee combat. Once I've got some distance from my enemies, then I start raining arcane death upon their heads.
Wizards have "terrible chances to hit in melee, terrible hit points, and terrible armor class" because they weren't intended to be front-line fighters. They were intended to be in the back. Wizards, especially low-level wizards, are fire support units, not assault units.
Yes, shape change allows a wizard to be a tank. But there are better uses of the spell, and it's not really the nature of wizards to be tanks.
Faraer may not have answered in the way you like, but he brings up a valid point.
Yep, and remember you can Shape Change into almost anything.
A spellcaster with the Transdimensional Spell feat that Shape Changes into an incorporeal creature is going to be hard to hurt.
Even if the spellcaster doesn't have any spells prepared with Transdimensional Spell or even have the feat, being incorporeal has many tactical advantages. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Sep 2005 : 06:06:32
I don't feel his comment was unconstructive...
Besides, wizards have spells, so they shouldn't be in melee combat. Especially wizards who are high enough in level to cast spells like shape change.
Me, if I'm an 18th+ level wizard, and I find myself in melee combat, my first move is going to be to get out of melee combat. Once I've got some distance from my enemies, then I start raining arcane death upon their heads.
Wizards have "terrible chances to hit in melee, terrible hit points, and terrible armor class" because they weren't intended to be front-line fighters. They were intended to be in the back. Wizards, especially low-level wizards, are fire support units, not assault units.
Yes, shape change allows a wizard to be a tank. But there are better uses of the spell, and it's not really the nature of wizards to be tanks.
Faraer may not have answered in the way you like, but he brings up a valid point. |
| Adam_Garou |
Posted - 19 Sep 2005 : 21:50:47
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Polymorph and shape change are used by characters to whom transmutation and shapechangeing are natural -- spells are revealers of character, not meaningless powergaming weapons in an arsenal.
Or, they're used by wizards who can cast the spells, and want to utilize them to best effect. There's a big difference between "powergaming" and using magic to its fullest potential. Generally, in 1e and 2e, a wizard has terrible chances to hit in melee, terrible hit points, and terrible armor class. Thus, his/her magic is all that remains to defend/attack with. Magic IS the character's arsenal, and it's basically his/her reason for being.
Constructive comments only, please. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 19 Sep 2005 : 21:10:29
Polymorph and shape change are used by characters to whom transmutation and shapechangeing are natural -- spells are revealers of character, not meaningless powergaming weapons in an arsenal. |
| Adam_Garou |
Posted - 19 Sep 2005 : 19:53:32
Okay, titan--check.
25+ feet tall, excellent damage potential even if they only get one attack. 
Any others? |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 19 Sep 2005 : 15:36:02
I had an NPC wizard that would cast in and always took the form of a Titan (1e, 2e). He always wanted to help the melee people, so when he got powerful enough, he would cast it and kill most the people before the fights even had a chance, and since the fighters were my PCs, it made for some funny gaming.
C-Fb |
| Adam_Garou |
Posted - 19 Sep 2005 : 14:37:08
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Are you including 3E in the list?
If so, I've got plenty of DMing experiences I can share. If not, best of luck all the same.
J. Grenemyer
Absolutely. My group is currently using a combination of 1e and 2e rules (we tend to rotate DMing duties, and one of the guys is an old 1e standby), but the stories I'm looking for are for purposes of tactics and "story flavor" and such.
Please share--1e, 2e, 3e, whatever. Thanks! |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 17 Sep 2005 : 08:44:31
Are you including 3E in the list?
If so, I've got plenty of DMing experiences I can share. If not, best of luck all the same.
J. Grenemyer |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 22:49:02
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
I think we can't forget Gigioni Wyvernspur that, without being a powerful wizard, or even fighter, he is able to shape shift, and the passages where his wyrm form appears are pretty well reflected if you need some "inspiration", for a shape shifter, or even werewolves story could be of assistance to you, I am sure there are many scribes here more able than me to assist you in this matter...
Indeed. Giogi has a magical item that allows him to assume wyvern-form -- and only the form of a wyvern, nothing else. His tale is told in The Wyvern's Spur, the second book of the Finder's Stone trilogy (no worries, it stands alone quite effectively). |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 20:35:10
I think we can't forget Gigioni Wyvernspur that, without being a powerful wizard, or even fighter, he is able to shape shift, and the passages where his wyrm form appears are pretty well reflected if you need some "inspiration", for a shape shifter, or even werewolves story could be of assistance to you, I am sure there are many scribes here more able than me to assist you in this matter... |
| Adam_Garou |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 20:27:04
*bows*
Okay, I can see your point. But my question still stands for those of you who have run PC or NPC wizards with the spell and have employed it in your campaigns.
How did it work? What choices did the player or DM make with the spell? Were there just a lot of dragons, giants, rocs and elementals? Did it make or destroy your campaigns? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 17:37:27
quote:
Originally posted by Adam_Garou
Any thoughts or stories you can share would be appreciated, as most of the novels seem to disregard a lot of the usefulness of this spell. Why do you suppose that is? Is it just too powerful to write about effectively?
I think the power issue is the reason we don't see the spell in fiction more oft... Only the most powerful wizards can cast it, which means that any wizard capable of casting this spell also has dozens of powerful spells at his/her command. That makes them hard to challenge... Add in the ability to take any form and thus be able to emerge from just about any situation unscathed... How do you challenge someone who can do that?
Look at the movie Terminator 2: the T-1000 was virtually unstoppable. They spent most of the movie simply running from it... Only at the end were they able to defeat it.
Now, if it had been able to turn into a salamander or fire elemental, it would have walked out of that molten metal. Add in spellcasting ability, and you've got one seriously nasty critter.
So that is why, in my opinion, we don't see that spell used too oft in fiction: it's just too powerful and too hard to challenge someone who can (or has) cast it. |
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