| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Never |
Posted - 28 Jul 2005 : 08:22:26
Has anyone else done this?
In my take on the FR, I changed the various detect evil/law/chaos/good spells. I did this for two reasons: the first is that I prefer the PCs to judge a person's goodness by their actions instead of just being able to know and the second is that I prefer stories with more moral ambiguity than the alignment system offers.
Instead, I implemented a system much like W:tA (Werewolf: the Apocalypse) 'Sense Wyrm.' At any time, a divine spell caster (clerics and paladins) can feel a sort of strong 'spiritual rotting.' Therefore, if they walk into a place that was once a torture chamber, they'll get a 'vibe' that something is wrong, likewise, if they interact with someone who's been seriously abused then they'll feel something is off. Rangers and druids also have this special sense but it tends to ping around cities or powerful, unnatural creatures.
I was only able to run my game for a few sessions but my players were receptive. Then again, the majority of typically avoided D&D in favor of WoD games like W:tA and M:tA.
Has anyone tried something like this? How did your players react to it? Do you think it helps the tone/quality of the story enough for it to be worth it?
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| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 07 Aug 2005 : 23:26:23
I use detect evil as is, but even for a good Cleric I say that a detected Faint aura is not a big thing.
In my current campaign, the non-cleric characters are still under level 10 (where any evil creature got a moderate aura) and the cleric wear a Ring of Mind Shielding for that purpose.
It is clear for me that when they will finaly got their moderate+ aura, they will have to hide it some times while venturing into "goody" places (Silverymoon, good temples, etc.)
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 06 Aug 2005 : 20:01:50
I have always loved alignment and will always use it. I think at times the Law/Chaos axis is diffult to dicern, since ethics are the means by which one implements their morals, but the Good/Evil axis should always be there (and I am not favoring dropping Law/Chaos either, just pointing out that it can be a more diffult balancing act).
First, a cleric is not always going to have a detect evil or know alignment handy on a day to day basis, unless he is absolutely paranoid, which is an interesting role playing hook in itself. And though this isn't the case with know alignment, detect evil only functions on someone powerful and evil or someone about to (in the near future) commit a very evil act.
I love the Veil of Cyric feat in City of Splendors. Its useful for someone that thinks they are good, are doing good things, worshipping good gods, but that is deluding themselves from the evil that they are actually doing. Its great, and beyond the NPC that its ascribed to, I immediately thought of the Eldreth Veluuthra as well.
In short, there are ways to work around alignment detection, and any divination in D&D can cause problems if your PCs decide to use them, but its been my experience that my players can brilliantly disarm plots that have taken months to form easily cutting to the heart of them, only to not cast a spell that I assumed they would and fall right back into the web of the villain. Sometimes you have to actually see how things go before you try to troubleshoot too far ahead. |
| Zorro |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 22:14:49
I guess alignment had its use in the old days when D&D was little more than a rather complicated tabletop without actual miniatures. But once you come of age, roleplaying-wise, thereby leaving the dungeons and going for the juicy parts of roleplaying, you notice that many spells add little to the entertainment, but subtract from it. Why do I have to rack my brains why X's alignment and wether Y spoke the truth or a lie cannot be discerned? Do I have to equip every other NPC with a jewelry store worth of amulets, rings and necklaces to be able to offer an intriguing and puzzling story? (Yes, I know, it can be used to lead the players onto the wrong track. But not again and again and again. What good are these spells if you can never rely on them because the DM has to evade their use to the best of his abilities?)
So, just like in Never's case, Detect Evil does work - when you're facing a blackguard rotten to the core. Actually it works when it doesn't need to (since most of the time it's pretty obvious that the lich you're dealing with ain't no paragon of virtue  ), rendering the spell useless. That's why players' reactions are based on their observations instead of the use of a spell, scroll etc. (This doesn't rule out the use of wrong tracks to lead the players onto, it's just the other way around: Because 'Detect (Alignment)' never works, it gets used less, and sometimes looks can deceive, making the characters act on their prejudices though they should have taken the time to use the spell for once.) Makes life so much easier - and makes for way more complexity than a black and white system like D&D can provide, which is a good thing.
Zorro |
| Arlenion |
Posted - 01 Aug 2005 : 18:27:50
Also just because someone isn't evil doesn't mean they are your friends. They might be deceived/confused/incorrect or you might be. Likewise an evil NPC might very well help the PC's because it is to that person't advantage or just because it feels like the right thing to do. After all some heroes do something evil, why can't a villain do something good?
Also someone using only a detect alignment spell won't be able to detect degree. For example a mass murderer and a greedy merchant might both be evil, but to very different degrees.
Finally some being have deceiving auras. An example is a good undead; all undead detect as evil but a good aligned undead would also detect as good. The same holds true with clerics; a neutral cleric can have an evil god and would detect as evil. In this case they wouldn't even have an opposing aura making it even more difficult to discover their true alignment. |
| Damian Naïlo |
Posted - 31 Jul 2005 : 05:27:40
It should also be of notice that the result of a Detect Alignment spell can mean anything. After all, isn't evil a subjective thing? What would the same spell reveal about the necrophiliac vampire necromancer and the Knights of the Shield lackey who sells weaponry at absurd prices? Well, they both might be evil, so what? It's up to a good DM and some darn good roleplaying to get through the definition of evil and unveil the true nature of a character or an NPC. On an side note, in my campaign, my character (Lawful Evil) started the game with a magic ring (given to him by a succubus wizard......long story) that hid his alignment. By the time Alustriel (yes, THE Alustriel) revealed my character's true nature, he was pretty much the guy all the girls in Silverymoon loved and all the boys wanted to be like. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 17:49:11
I should like to also point out that divination spells like that can be foiled. For fear of giving away spoilers, I shan't mention the title or characters, but in one Realms novel, there was a thoroughly evil man who possessed some sort of magical amulet that hid his aura. A paladin, looking at the man, was willing to swear that the guy was upright and just, a genuinely great guy. Later on, said paladin discovered he'd made a mistake.
Note: if you know the novel, keep the title to yourself, please. Again, I want to give away no spoilers, and that is a major one.  |
| tauster |
Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 08:39:23
several sessions back, our party used the clerical detect alignment spell to find out whether the slightly crazed mage they saved deep in the underdark (night below campaign) is to be trusted or not.
i stated very clearly that he´s thoroughly evil. they intended to drop him like a hot potato once they´ve reached the surface. during their way home they chatted with the still totally frightened guy (he was kidnapped and "mind-reamed" by illithid and under no circumstances wanted to return alone to the surface) and he promised them to help them with all ressources at his command, knowledge, spells and so on.
the party knew that he was about as powerful as they (based on the spells he told them he knew), so they decided to wait and see if something useful comes out. after all, which party can resist the prospect of getting free spells? 
the mage kept his promise and send them two spellbooks with half a dozen new and helpful spells - delivered by his brother (an obese but skilled smith who recently discovered that he too had a knack for magic) and asking them to teach him in the basics of spellcraft, as he has to keep a low profile at the moment. 
i still can vividly remember my players faces...
what followed was a hour-long discussion whether or not the guy - and with that, his evil brother - can be trusted, and whether or not they could ally with someone who´s clearly evil, even though he hadn´t done anything evil the party knew of! what was complicating the whole thing was that the smith was a npc created by one of the players, so at least one player (but not his pc!) knew that he was of neutral alignment.
now the smith is properly interwoven into the campaign´s background (learning the ropes of magic from another npc-mage, who has a close eye on all his doings) and the party waits eagerly for news from their evil ally.
in short: using detect alignment- spells the right way can generate intriguing adventure hooks.
...why do i always need to write half a novel when one short sentence would be enough?¿? 
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| Faramicos |
Posted - 28 Jul 2005 : 17:28:22
Exactly... That is the diversity in the alignments. so it can also work the other way. Misleading the players into fals believes... UHHHH, sounds tempting. |
| Fletcher |
Posted - 28 Jul 2005 : 16:58:02
I tend to not have everyone detect as good or evil. Only people who are truly evil or are currently thinking of doing evil will detect as such. (Vile polluters, clerics of evil dieties, demon summoners, evil necromancers, High level assassins and politicians)
I personally dislike the distrust people have of evil people. Merchants are pretty much evil, they tend to be more focused on personal gain. They try to abide by the laws when possible, but if the opportunity to make a quick buck without hurting anyone by cheating on their taxes.... evil I tell you. But they have to be fairly trustworthy in business practice or they won't make money. So you can trust a cobbler to make you boots, an innkeeper to have rooms, a tavern to have beer and to serve you without trying to kill you and take your 'stuff.'
"I'm evil, not stupid." |
| Faramicos |
Posted - 28 Jul 2005 : 12:18:00
I have done it to some extend. I have, in my creation of my mages spellbooks, kept the spells in mention away from them. I also like my players to be on doubt of the intend of my NPC´s and i like being able to hide a NPC´s true intentions. But remember that an evil character not necessarily is guilty. But it does create some shortages in the matter of keeping secrets from the characters and introducing NPC´s with hidden agendas. |
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