| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 00:11:13
Well met!
My fellow scribe Forge started a thread about 'Spell thematics' on this forum today, but since I had been thinking about posting a similar topic for some time, I thought to expand the issue a bit.
The idea for this was originally inspired by the Lady Hooded One, describing magic in the "Home Realms" in her posts. Recently our gaming group got into a discussion on the nature of the "flavour" of magic. We felt that each spell should reflect their caster's personality in some way, "spicing up" even the most exotic and rarest of spells.
When we played the 2nd edition AD&D, we usually researched "modified" versions of each spell for our wizard characters. For example, some years ago I created a cleric/mage of Helm, who researched his own versions of every wizard spell ('Shield' manifested as a translucent shield imprinted with the eye of Helm, Armor-spell as a translucent breastplate, etcetera). I really felt that my every spell was personal, and reflected my character's dedication to his deity. But I would have liked to do the same with my priest spells, although I took some comfort in the fact that the 'Faiths and Avatars' supplied him with a few unique Helmite prayers.
But speaking of the "Home Realms", it seems that Ed of the Greenwood strives to make each spell feel personal according to the caster, and in case of a cleric or priest, also his deity. This is exactly what I mean by all this rambling. Since cleric spells are divine in origin, I feel that they should also be "imprinted" by gods in an appropriate way, reflecting the nature and portfolio of the particular deity. For example, when a cleric of Bane casts 'Flame blade', the flames might be black (or green in 3.x edition FR). When a cleric of Talos casts any 'Inflict'-spells, small lightnings might arc and dance at his fingertips, damaging his opponents as he touches them. When a cleric of Moradin casts 'Miracle', you might hear majestic hammerblows ringing on an anvil all around him. And so on.
You can still research your "own versions" of existing arcane spells - or create completely new spells - in 3.x edition rules. But what I really liked about 3e magic was the ability to add completely unique features to how your magic manifests, without any additional spell research. This could be accomplished with a feat - Spell thematics. 'Magic of Faerun' originally defined this feat to apply to all spells, and it was available to both arcane and divine spellcasters. However, some time ago this feat was "updated" to D&D 3.5 edition, and suddenly only arcane spellcasters are allowed to take it. AND it applies only to one spell per spell level.
To me this "update" seems unfair, and even the new 'initiate of xxxx' divine feats don't compensate for the loss of 'Spell thematics' for clerics, since there are only few benefits (=some new spells) for taking those 'initiate' feats.
Psionics can be manifested in many unique ways, limited only by your imagination. Maybe magic should work that way, too?
How do you feel about this issue, my fellow scribes? Should there be countless variations of spells, depending on the nature and imagination of their casters? Should divine spells manifest in ways appropriate to the deity granting them? Or perhaps should both Arcane and Divine magic have those same "manifesting rules" as psionics - chosen by each spellcaster as they choose? Should something like this be "free", or accomplished only by taking a certain feat? Have you applied anything like these ideas as "house rules" in your campaigns? |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Forge |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 16:53:39
quote:
Heres my call about whether to allow Divine spellcasters to take Spell Thematics, using the feat as it is described in Magic of Faerun.
That's a different source than where I was pulling my feat description from, which was the FRCS. It's also subtly different in it's description/requirements. |
| Thureen Buroch |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 16:47:29
I don't remember where I read this, but this might be some compensation for not allowing Divine spellcasters to take the Spell Thematics feat. Supposedly, when a divine spellcaster casts a spell, themselves and those around them are supposed to feel or hear something minor that relates to their deity. The only affect would be that others might be able to guess the casters deity. Some examples: Clerics/druids of Mieliki might cast a spell and others would hear faint leaves rustling. Clerics of Bane might cast a spell and others would feel a small jolt of pain.
Heres my call about whether to allow Divine spellcasters to take Spell Thematics, using the feat as it is described in Magic of Faerun. It basically allows you to cast your spells with a distinct auditory or visual effect in their manifestation. It adds a +5 DC to any Spellcraft check made to identify a spell cast in this manner. Its prerequisite is that you must be able to cast at least one illusion spell. I say that a Divine spellcaster should be able to take it. Think of it as a Metamagic feat (I know it's not, but read on). It's advantage: Spells cast in this manner do not take up a higher spell slot. It's disadvantage: the prerequisite, of course, and the fact that it cannot be taken as a Metamagic feat (wizards can't take it as a bonus feat, it can't count as a Metamagic feat for other feats with a prerequisite of the taker already knowing a Metamagic feat, etc.). And remember, Divine Spellcasters can take Metamagic feats. One more thing: Feats are supposed to be beneficial. They're not supposed to balance with their drawbacks out to zero. They're supposed to balance out with their drawbacks as not too good. And that's what this feat does.
I say, let Divine Spellcasters take it. |
| Forge |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 15:21:25
Or perhaps the player and DM can wrangle out the details on the more prominent spells prior to the game and have it worked out before hand. I would say that the thematics should not have any effect on the function of the spell nor should it detract from the function of the spell. That's the realm of other feats. A nice DM might even allow their divine casters access to Spell thematics. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 15:20:00
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
quote:
Yes, I agree that each deity should allow its followers to use "free Spell Thematics" on each spell/prayer according to its portfolio
I respectfully disagree. The Feat: Spell Thematics is a set of game mechanics that surrounds a particular caster and his/her magics. To grant this feat for free to any clerical caster would be a major modification to the rules. (That means any cleric would get the +4dc on spellcraft checks as well as one spell per level cast at +1 lvl)
HOWEVER, I agree that they could have themed spells without the hard-coded bonus. But that's between you and the DM, and is much akin to generating flavor text for crits and hits as opposed to just saying you hit.
Oh, and BTW, I love this kind of cordial and educated discourse on stuff like this, thanks!
My humble thanks to you for contributing to this issue 
I meant by that 'Free Spell Thematics' for divine spellcasters that it would be without any bonuses to spellcraft or caster level - as you wrote, it would only serve to bring some flavor/theme to divine spells, as appropriate to one's deity  |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 15:14:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]I'd not think that all clerical spells would be themed to the deity... But there is plenty of evidence to support that some divine magic has built-in thematics.
For example, a healing spell from a cleric of Lathander would have a soft, warm glow and feel to the recipient like a gentle and warm touch, but a healing spell from a cleric of Bane would likely look like dark flames and would cause pain as it healed the recipient.
Aye, not all of them need to be. As this requires a lot of insight and thinking from both the DM and the players, it might be wise to use this flavor only occasionally. I don't think anyone should try to come up with variant spells for every deity in the Realms - it would perhaps be best to improvise them during gaming sessions. |
| Forge |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 17:54:50
Oh Wooley One,
I think the lament here is that there is nothing in Canon that dictates these themes so that a player can act upon them and say "See, it says right here...". Although, I would wonder many of the metamagic feats could be skewed that way. I know I normally look at metamagic with regards to how they could be best applied to MY favorite class but maybe I'll revisit them tonite. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 17:40:44
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
quote:
Yes, I agree that each deity should allow its followers to use "free Spell Thematics" on each spell/prayer according to its portfolio
I respectfully disagree. The Feat: Spell Thematics is a set of game mechanics that surrounds a particular caster and his/her magics. To grant this feat for free to any clerical caster would be a major modification to the rules. (That means any cleric would get the +4dc on spellcraft checks as well as one spell per level cast at +1 lvl)
HOWEVER, I agree that they could have themed spells without the hard-coded bonus. But that's between you and the DM, and is much akin to generating flavor text for crits and hits as opposed to just saying you hit.
Oh, and BTW, I love this kind of cordial and educated discourse on stuff like this, thanks!
I'd not think that all clerical spells would be themed to the deity... But there is plenty of evidence to support that some divine magic has built-in thematics.
For example, a healing spell from a cleric of Lathander would have a soft, warm glow and feel to the recipient like a gentle and warm touch, but a healing spell from a cleric of Bane would likely look like dark flames and would cause pain as it healed the recipient. |
| Forge |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 14:36:30
quote:
Yes, I agree that each deity should allow its followers to use "free Spell Thematics" on each spell/prayer according to its portfolio
I respectfully disagree. The Feat: Spell Thematics is a set of game mechanics that surrounds a particular caster and his/her magics. To grant this feat for free to any clerical caster would be a major modification to the rules. (That means any cleric would get the +4dc on spellcraft checks as well as one spell per level cast at +1 lvl)
HOWEVER, I agree that they could have themed spells without the hard-coded bonus. But that's between you and the DM, and is much akin to generating flavor text for crits and hits as opposed to just saying you hit.
Oh, and BTW, I love this kind of cordial and educated discourse on stuff like this, thanks! |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 11:18:03
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Asgetrion, please pardon a mere seeker for disagreeing, but I believe the "Spell Thematics" feat actually changes ALL the spells you cast, hence the +4 DC to spellcraft checks for your spells. However you can ALSO choose one spell per level to receive the +1 caster level bonus.
*Ahem*, no need to apologise, Forge - I stand corrected  But more importantly, this feat may no longer be taken by divine spellcasters, which I feel takes a lot out of the "flavor" of divine magic.
quote:
In my personal opinion, I think that as a low-level caster your spells would all pretty much conform to an arcane "Norm". However, as you get more experience and grow in strength you begin to stretch your power and change things up to fit your personal desires. This is effectively implimented by things such as the meta-magic feats, the Feat: Energy Substitution, and of course, Feat: Spell Thematics.
Yes, this sounds reasonable and logical. I agree that no apprentice wizard should be able to take those feats at 1st level.
quote:
As a Divine caster, I could see your diety imprinting the spells with his/her/it's own theme, as each of your spells are merely variants on a prayer, and the effect a manifestation of the diety's power rather than a channeling of your own personal mojo.
Yes, I agree that each deity should allow its followers to use "free Spell Thematics" on each spell/prayer according to its portfolio. Sadly, the rules do not utilise this "flavor"-option properly. You may choose your domains from your deity's list, but I guess it would have been too much for most DMs and players to make each spell feel "unique" to each deity. Thus, the only personal contribution to your spells comes from the metamagic feats and prestige classes (the Hierophant, for example).
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| Forge |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 14:39:11
Asgetrion, please pardon a mere seeker for disagreeing, but I believe the "Spell Thematics" feat actually changes ALL the spells you cast, hence the +4 DC to spellcraft checks for your spells. However you can ALSO choose one spell per level to receive the +1 caster level bonus.
In my personal opinion, I think that as a low-level caster your spells would all pretty much conform to an arcane "Norm". However, as you get more experience and grow in strength you begin to stretch your power and change things up to fit your personal desires. This is effectively implimented by things such as the meta-magic feats, the Feat: Energy Substitution, and of course, Feat: Spell Thematics.
As a Divine caster, I could see your diety imprinting the spells with his/her/it's own theme, as each of your spells are merely variants on a prayer, and the effect a manifestation of the diety's power rather than a channeling of your own personal mojo.
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 04:37:51
I would assume that most spell effects of a divine natures probaly could have a symbol or other representation of the deity that grants the spell, if the deity doen't object. For example, clerics of Vhaeraun in many circumstances probably wouldn't want to advertise their allegance to everyone. I still think in this case though, the base structure of the spell is such that it can still be readily identified by those with the proper knowlage. For example, a shield of faith may have a deities trademark attached to it, but it still looks very much like any other shield of faith.
On the other hand, when you are talking about arcane casters using special spell effects, yes, I think for major changes either they need to research their own variations or use Spell Thematics, mainly becuase a fireball shaped like a hawk or a cone of cold that glows purple are likely to make a trained viewer think that these spells are different than they actually are (hence the change in difficulty to notice with spellcraft).
Besides, I like the idea that a wizard might first learn a spell and then decides to customize it for his own use. Why is the common version still appearing then? Becuase he retains the original "generic" version of the spell to pass on to apprentices so that they don't get to show off with his own hard work. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 04:26:25
With my 1E and 2E groups, we had alot of that going on, but with my current group, there is very little of that.
Guess it is a sign of the time.... |
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