| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rhezarnos |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 20:25:30
Forgive me, but this is going to be my first time co-DMing, so I really need help. Currently, Faerun has some deities 'imported' from our own world. What happens if I bring a few more to complete a set of a certain pantheon? Like say, the Nordic pantheon? There's already Tyr, so is it possible if Odin, Thor, Loki and the rest of the Nordic powers 'join in'? If yes, how do you assign their portfolios? |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 18:41:09
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I disagree with this. There is no existing Realmslore to support your claim. Tyr is the only Norse deity worshipped in the Realms, and even then his "Faerunian version" is a bit different aspect (God of Justice, not War).
The Fr version of TyR is perhpas even truer to the Teutonic understanding of the god than the image presented by the Eddas alone might suggest. Not only was the war gods, ie. Tyr's, judgment deferred
is all criminal matters that involved the death penatly, flogging or imprisonment, but he was refered to as "Mars Thingsus" or "Battle god of the Legal Assembly", and ruled over the institution of the moot.
Furthermore, trace his name back far enough and he runs into such deities as Zeus, Jupiter and the Hindu Dyaus ... all of whom are rembered too some extent as thuder gods. In Dyaus' case, he was at times perceived as a red bull whose bellowing was the thunder, and it eventually came ot pass that he commisioned the creation of Indra's hammer and made him the, ahem, "thunder god". Chances are, though it is clearly not 100% verifiable, that Tyr and Thor (and Woden) underwent a simliar evolution, with the two spring out of the one.
So, that the FR TyR actually bears a hammer is itself striking from the pov of one faithful to the Teutonic deities in general and Tyr in specific.
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Tyr´s faith was established about a thousand years ago (if my memory serves me right). I think that the lack of Odin´s worship is a big hole in your theory... he is a greater deity, and the leader of his pantheon,
Well, there are older Teutonic fragment myths, and brief statments made by Teutonic tribesmen in historical texts, that place TyR at the head of the pantheon. This is verifiable to a goodly degree via Indo-European linguistic and mythological comparison. OUtside of warfare, Woden didn't really become a majour influence in the pantheon, ie. a ruling god, until the Migration Age when his heroic cult of sacral kingship largely eclipsed those of Seaxneat, and the peace/prosperity oriented, and weaponless cult of sacral kingship that was associated with Ingui-Frea (Yngvi-FreyR).
Snorri Sturluson's image of Woden as the King of the Gods is probably the result of hisown classical education, and its built in preconceived notions about things, and the fact that Woden was in Snorri's mind the preeminent god of kingship, with Ingui's cult relagated to Sweden alone by the end of the heathen period.
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| Jindael |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 18:18:21
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
I would say that there is a good chance that gods like Odin and Thor were once part of the realms, but they had been condensed or merged into other deities and their old existences are forgotten. But, the holes in my theory are: The lack of realmslore supporting this and (and Wooly pointed out) the lack of a trickster deity in the Faerun pantheon.
I disagree with this. There is no existing Realmslore to support your claim. Tyr is the only Norse deity worshipped in the Realms, and even then his "Faerunian version" is a bit different aspect (God of Justice, not War). Mask has always been portrayed in novels as a trickster deity... so I think he is the closest match for Loki 
Tyr´s faith was established about a thousand years ago (if my memory serves me right). I think that the lack of Odin´s worship is a big hole in your theory... he is a greater deity, and the leader of his pantheon, so there certainly would be some proof/lore of his worship if the whole Norse pantheon had been worshipped in the Realms within the last thousand years.
Yup, I disagree with it also. ^_^ Not only for the reason I mentioned, but the rest of the posts on the matter that you and others have pointed out.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
Certainly though, neither Loki nor Cyric are Tricksters is the traditional "fox" sense. both are far less playful and far too selfish and spiteful.
Yup. That's why I say that the Faerûnian pantheon lacks a Trickster-type. Playful and mischievous, that's what a Trickster is all about. 
I also think that the lack of a "good" trickster in the Faerun pantheon needs to be filled. Someone more like Erevan Ilsere and Brandobaris for the rest of the world. Loki and Coyote spring to mind as two "Real World" counterparts, if you wanted to have them arrive in Faerun.
While the stories of Loki (As I'm gathering from this post) made him darker as time went on, there is no reason that he can't just be present in his trickster aspect.
In that vein, I don't see the other trickster deities opposing a new one. All the other trickster deities are racial specific (the ones I can think of off the top of my head are elven, halfling, Gnome and the faerie dragon guy) and I'm sure they would all love to have a new friend. 
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| Beowulf |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 06:09:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Going back to Loki, though, I have read that in the early mythology, he was more like a Trickster, but that as time went on, he became darker and darker.
That is the process that folks see Loki going through in the Viking Age Eddaic stories; beginning rather innocently, but gradually slipping. Some see it as a gradual descent into madness on Loki's behalf.
Prior to the Viking Age though there is no clear evidence of Loki. Some think that the Old English puki, from whence Shakespeare got the name Puck, was a class of mischievious/malicious spirits from which Loki, perhaps king of the puki, evolved.
My own theory is that Loki evovled out of an older understand of the god Woden/Odhinn, a younger, wilder Woden, perhaps the being remembered as OdhR in the Eddas or Wod in Britain and on the Continent. When man's understanding of the god-force they dubbed Wod/en deepen, its possible that the more boyish, mercurial aspects became incompatible the newly emerged understanding of the god ... as a god of kings amongst other things. Nevertheless, kingly Woden's link to his "youth" is remembered in the "blood brotherhood" he shares with Loki in the Eddas.
Curiously, another thread that might have been spun into the creation of the Eddaic Loki is the etin Utgard-Loki, whom the Dane Saxo Grammaticus writes of as having been chained in the underworld by the gods and beneath venom dripping wyrms ... which exactly parallels the fate of Loki in the Norse Icelandic sources.
So, what we end up with is this surreal picture of Woden (master of fury, madness inspiration), Wod (fury, madness, inspiration), Loki, and Utgard-Loki all blending together and relating to each other on various levels.
Hmmmmm ...
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| The Sage |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 03:46:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Going back to Loki, though, I have read that in the early mythology, he was more like a Trickster, but that as time went on, he became darker and darker.
That is quite true.
While Loki did possess great knowledge, he also had a particular cunning streak. He would often employed his great knowledge to both creative and mischievious ends, but as time went on, his cunning streak eventually won him over and he soon began applying his knowledge to maliciously destructive ends.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 01:30:02
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
Certainly though, neither Loki nor Cyric are Tricksters is the traditional "fox" sense. both are far less playful and far too selfish and spiteful.
Yup. That's why I say that the Faerûnian pantheon lacks a Trickster-type. Playful and mischievous, that's what a Trickster is all about.
Going back to Loki, though, I have read that in the early mythology, he was more like a Trickster, but that as time went on, he became darker and darker. |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 21:22:07
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
If a worshiper of a thunder god - for example, Thor - came through a portal to Realms, I think Talos would grant him his spells initially, answering his prayers instead of Thor. But soon Talos would start converting him to his own faith...
The problem here is that Thorr is not, technically, a thunder god. He was/is preminentally a god of strength, law, and (w)holiness. He is only a thunder-god is so far as thunder is understood as an expression of raw power/strength.
No one ever prayed to Thorr to bring thunder and storm, and in Nordic belief other deities, such as Odin under the name Thund, and nature-spirits, ie. jotuns/etins, were associated with thunderstorms ... with benevolent weather and aspects of nature being the province of deities and destructive weather and aspects of nature being the province of etins.
quote:
How about Mask? He is a bit of a trickster, God of Intrigue and all...
Since reading the book Prince of Lies (I think thats what it was called), I've always thought that Cyric strongly resembled Loki, the mentally deranged Father of Lies.
Certainly though, neither Loki nor Cyric are Tricksters is the traditional "fox" sense. both are far less playful and far too selfish and spiteful.
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| Asgetrion |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 20:49:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If a thunder god from another pantheon tried to enter the Realms, Talos would do everything in his power to make sure that thunder god wasn't around for very long -- and that's assuming that Ao even allowed the interloper to enter into Realmspace.
True. If a worshiper of a thunder god - for example, Thor - came through a portal to Realms, I think Talos would grant him his spells initially, answering his prayers instead of Thor. But soon Talos would start converting him to his own faith...
quote:
There's not too many open slots in the Faerûnian pantheon... So any interlopers, if allowed in, are going to have an uphill battle against an already entrenched deity. And considering that deific power relies on worshippers, unless the interloper imported or suddenly gained a large number of followers (thousands, at least), then he or she would not be able to unseat the already established deity.
You wouldn´t be referring to the portfolio of the God of War, would you? 
quote:
I don't think the Realms has a Trickster, though...
How about Mask? He is a bit of a trickster, God of Intrigue and all...
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| Asgetrion |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 20:42:16
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
I would say that there is a good chance that gods like Odin and Thor were once part of the realms, but they had been condensed or merged into other deities and their old existences are forgotten. But, the holes in my theory are: The lack of realmslore supporting this and (and Wooly pointed out) the lack of a trickster deity in the Faerun pantheon.
I disagree with this. There is no existing Realmslore to support your claim. Tyr is the only Norse deity worshipped in the Realms, and even then his "Faerunian version" is a bit different aspect (God of Justice, not War). Mask has always been portrayed in novels as a trickster deity... so I think he is the closest match for Loki
Tyr´s faith was established about a thousand years ago (if my memory serves me right). I think that the lack of Odin´s worship is a big hole in your theory... he is a greater deity, and the leader of his pantheon, so there certainly would be some proof/lore of his worship if the whole Norse pantheon had been worshipped in the Realms within the last thousand years.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 18:20:03
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think the Realms has a Trickster, though...
Wooly, there is a "trickster deity" in the Realms. It's Brandoris, a halfing deity of thievery and several other portfolios.
Brandobaris is certainly a Trickster, but I was thinking more of a Trickster for humans. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 07:48:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think the Realms has a Trickster, though...
Wooly, there is a "trickster deity" in the Realms. It's Brandoris, a halfing deity of thievery and several other portfolios. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 05:55:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
However, if that same thundergod showed up in an area where there was no god with a similar or identical portfolio (say, on one of the unexplored continents), then there would be no problems.
Indeed. And the case of the worship of Teylas among the Tuigan is a similar example.
Among the Tuigan, the worship of elemental lords as gods is commonplace. Although Eldath, Selune, and Malar all have their places in the religious structure of the Tuigan, Teylas (a derivative of Akadi in Faerun) is interpreted as the lord of the sky and storms. He is the god of heaven.
The Tuigan example is also a case study for the trend toward a differing cultural interpretation of an already existing Power. It also illustrates a little about what Wooly just said. There is no basis for Talos among the Tuigan, no existent religion for the Lord of Storms. Akadi, as Teylas, occupies that role and so we can see how there would be little conflict between the worship of two storm gods because Talos has no basis in the Tuigan pantheon. Unless Talos were to suddenly intrude upon the Endless Wastes and bring his worship to the Tuigan, such conflict would likely never occur.
And only then, as Wooly stated, unless there was a massive worshipper shift toward the "new" religion of Talos (perhaps Teylas is shown to be weak in battle against Talos) which would give him the "access" to the pantheon of te Tuigan, the worship of Teylas is safe as it is.
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 04:50:07
Beowulf, have you read Elaine Cunningham's Starlight and Shadows books (the Liriel stories)? I think if you read her books you could actually make a pretty strong case for what you suggest (i.e. that the Northmen were decended from the Norse of our world). |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 04:42:44
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
I would say that there is a good chance that gods like Odin and Thor were once part of the realms, but they had been condensed or merged into other deities and their old existences are forgotten.
My own theory is that the Illuskans originated in our world. They were one of the new tribes that formed up in the wake of the climate change that made Scandinavia much cooler and wetter than in the Bronze Age. Some of these pushed their way into Eastern Europe, while others pushed their way into the area of northern Germany. According to my theory however, there was another segment of the Folk that followed an old sea-route that led to the British Island (established by the opening of the Bronze Age). While other Nordic tribes called themselves such names as the Tencteri, the Marcomanni, the Heruli and the Sueve, this group called themselves the Illuski ... later standarized to Illuskan.
While en route to the the British Isles this armada of protoypical Iron Age longships got blown off course and unknowingly passed through a gate that led them into the far Western reaches of the Trackless Sea on Aber-Toril.
Like their sibbs, they carried with them their beliefs with them, but of all only TyR followed them to this new crystal sphere, as the heroic standard of his worship began to wane in the face of the onset of the Wolf Age. Unfortunately, the Illuski found their new homeland of Ruathym to be far more inhospitable than Scandinavia had ever been, and slowly but surely the spirit of heroism was eroded away and replaced by blind violence and mere repute over righteous and heroic glory. Thus, even the worship of TyR was lost to the Illuski over time.
Prior to this loss however, a group of enterprising Illuskans made their way to Calimshan, where they performed such great deeds of heroism that the natives came to worship their god ... Tyr ... whom the Calishites called Anachtyr or Anach-Tyr ... Anach being a Calishite word meaning "hero, savior".
Such did the worship of TyR continue, further making himself known to the folk of ancient Jhammdath, but divorced from his native folk.
This theory originally set the stage for my Candlekeep Compendium article on the Lawspeakers of Ruathym, a very small group of Tyrians divinely inspired to return the spirit of heroism and righteousness to the folk of Ruathym, and thence to all Northmen.
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| Jindael |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 03:34:05
A great deal of the deities that came into the realms came not on their own, but came because their worshipers traveled or were brought to the realms, thus their existing powerbase.
I would say that there is a good chance that gods like Odin and Thor were once part of the realms, but they had been condensed or merged into other deities and their old existences are forgotten. But, the holes in my theory are: The lack of realmslore supporting this and (and Wooly pointed out) the lack of a trickster deity in the Faerun pantheon.
As far as assigning their portfolios, they are given their write ups in Deities and Demigods. ( I really don’t agree with the way they are written up, but YMMV.)
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 23:19:58
The biggest problem would be whether or not there was already a corresponding deity in that geographical locale.
If a thunder god from another pantheon tried to enter the Realms, Talos would do everything in his power to make sure that thunder god wasn't around for very long -- and that's assuming that Ao even allowed the interloper to enter into Realmspace.
However, if that same thundergod showed up in an area where there was no god with a similar or identical portfolio (say, on one of the unexplored continents), then there would be no problems.
There's not too many open slots in the Faerûnian pantheon... So any interlopers, if allowed in, are going to have an uphill battle against an already entrenched deity. And considering that deific power relies on worshippers, unless the interloper imported or suddenly gained a large number of followers (thousands, at least), then he or she would not be able to unseat the already established deity.
I don't think the Realms has a Trickster, though... |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 22:24:30
quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
Forgive me, but this is going to be my first time co-DMing, so I really need help. Currently, Faerun has some deities 'imported' from our own world. What happens if I bring a few more to complete a set of a certain pantheon? Like say, the Nordic pantheon? There's already Tyr, so is it possible if Odin, Thor, Loki and the rest of the Nordic powers 'join in'? If yes, how do you assign their portfolios?
I do believe that I read that the reason why Ed called the FRs *forgotten* is because gates used to link our earth with Aber-Toril. The fact that Northmen used these gates at various points in the distiance past seems to me to be obvious via, not simply the prescence of Tyr in the pantheon, but so patently a real world Nordic tribal name as the Rus.
I see no reason why other gods couldn't be brought over, save for any possible conflict it might give rise to with other preexisting powers whose domains overlapp the new powers. Perhaps the Anglo-Teutonic powers would be happy amongst the Northmen and never seek to challenge other deities outside of that ethnic group. Or perhaps the powers won't be able to make the transition, but similar preexisting deities will hear and answer the prayers of such deities, assuming their names in the process, eg. Cyric worship under the name Loki, worship of Deneir or one-eyed Tempus under the name Odin.
The problem within assigning spheres to the Teutonic deities is that they are not easily pigeon-holed ... especially a god like Woden/Odhinn, who is like a jack of all trades and a master of some.
So it really becoems a matter of which face of Woden? Healer? Warrior? Death? Magician? King? Trickster? Soothsayer?
Thor is a little more straight forward, being a god of physical strength and *wholeness* of land, body, and womb, the warrior of the gods and defender of the holiness of the human and divine community who was never called upon in battles between men.
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