| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| tauster |
Posted - 15 May 2005 : 12:29:45
(preface: the following is based on 2e rules, cosmology as well as spells!)
after wondering for years why we don´t see the streets of faeruns cities illuminated with permanent light spells at night, i hinted in our game session yesterday at a possible reason - and would like to hear your opinion about it.
the 2nd level spell permanent light (which was fixed in 3e, iirc) is one of our groups pet peeves when it comes to suspension of disbelieve: why is such a simple (2nd level) and cheap spell not used in "daily life"? after all, the items you cast it on can be used for years (see spell description) and almost everything can be used as the spells focus.
one possible explanation would be that "street lighting" would be stolen and used for private purposes. but that doesn´t remove the problem, it only transfers it from the streets to the living rooms, and we have not seen common citizens have magic illumination in their homes. if they had such luxury, melvos hammerstars wouldn´t trade in lanters  .
the placement of the spell as 2nd level seems to be wrong, because it´s strenghts and weaknesses seem to be unbalanced: it combines a 1st level spell (light) and a 5th-level spell (permanency) and does neither require any expensive materials nor does the caster has to "pay" for it (permanency => loss of constitution). though we can not restate it´s obvious effects without retconning (sp?), there can still be hidden effects that might have been overlooked by the majority of mages!
then a few days before it hit me, and i came up with the following theory:
we still don´t know how exactly the spell works: what causes the light? the spells description does not say. my theory: for such a relatively powerful effect, something with inherent drawbacks (=risks!) must be done: in this case, it is messing with planar boundaries. for having an item to emit a bright light permanently, the caster has to weaken the boundary between the prime material plane and the plane of radiance to the point where myriads of miniscule portals are torn open: the planar boundary around the item gets "micro-perforated".
that causes an interesting effect: if the enspelled item is stationary for several months (or weeks?) as it would be the case with street lighting, the weakened planar boundary "bleeds": the tiny portals begin to merge, and new microportals open in a distance of several millimeters. items in close proximity begin to glow softly, and if the enspelled item is taken away, will continue to glow for some days afterwards.
after a while, the immediate area around the spells center becomes dangerous, as things from the plane of radiance pass through the portals. no one nows whether they are intelligent creatures or only strange and misunderstood "weather effects": wispy, "fluffy" lights with glowing "tentacles" or threads of light, measuring from the size of a small child´s thumb to three feet (though the latter are extremely rare).
a romantically minded wizard of asram who researched these lights called them "one of the best exemplifications of how easily beauty mingles with deadliness". they can (and do) drift through solid matter, and when they touch living beings they cause severe burns, leaving behind blistered skin. the lights don´t seem to be affected by these touches or anything else on the material plane at all, only a dispel magic spell makes them dissapear.
similar spells without "bleeding" side effects were used in netherese cities for centuries, but after the rebirth of mystra and reorganization of her weave mages quickly realized that not only the mightiest magicks were altered but also seemingly trivial spells like the lowly permanent light.
after a short period of time when the dark streets were less dangerous at night than the illuminated ones, the former arcanists discovered the "microperforation- effect" and decided keep quiet about it, because they did not want to direct anyone´s attention to how easy (relatively speaking) it was to weaken the boundaries between the planes. they further discovered that the "bleeding" effect only occured when the enspelled items were stationary (i.e. not moved around), so travellers could still use the spell.
of course there were alternative ways to make stationary items hold permanent light spells without the dangerous side effects, but they were far more complicated and more difficult to cast than before - and after netheril´s fall the mages of that age (and all coming ages, for that matter) had more important things to do than racking their brains about nightly street security. apart from halruaa and some other centers of arcane culture, the age of unlighted streets had begun.
does anything in my hypothesis contradict the old cosmology or game rules?
the spell itself is still common knowledge among mages, though it´s side effects are not. thus someone has to intervene whenever a local ruler decides to light his city´s streets and finds a mage willing to earn some coin (which should be the case quite regularly, imo). sounds like a job for mystra´s servants to me, either the chosen (finally we know why elminster is not around everytime a new realms shaking menace rears its head  ) or more plausible, mystra´s other servants like tarsadar or the shadowstaves. the latter seem to be destined for such "weave- maintenance" jobs, see their description in "secrets of the magister", p.24:
quote:
"Shadowstaves delight in observing the work and doings of intelligeet creatures...",
"...and with only rare exceptions work together loyally and smoothly in the service of azuth and mystra. Even many magisters are unaware of how extensive, numerous and tireless are the tasks set for shadowstaves by mystra and azuth."
"mystra uses her shadowstaves as "unseen watchers" over sorcery. remaining hidden, they manipulate the affairs of individual mortal mages so as to teach them the responsibilities that wielding magic carries; drive home some moral lessons (not to make all makes good, but to ensure that wizards know the consequences of their magecraft, as opposed to operating in ignorance); and drop hints, clues, and goads to spur wizards ever on to greater magical creativity."
i think shadowstaves might be the ideal candidates for preventing the proliferation of permanent light applications.
opinions? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 23 Jul 2005 : 01:06:24
No, I know what you are saying. Using Continual Light for a street light is like using a Sphere of Annihilation for sanitation . . . it gets the job done but is a bit of overkill. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 23 Jul 2005 : 01:02:08
KnightErrantJR, but the magical lightings that are commonly used in the Realms are like faerie fires or glowballs. Their radiance is not as powerful as the spells we have discussed. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 23 Jul 2005 : 00:20:06
I remember that one now, and come to think of it, there are some areas in the Realms that we do know have magical lighting, most noteably Halruaa. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jul 2005 : 00:08:12
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think a spell that would naturally dim itself to be of a more reasonable level that was also permanent might have to be researched separately and therefore may cost more, or for one reason or another be more trouble than its worth.
The 2E Shining South sourcebook contained such a spell... 'Twas a fourth level spell called Ramael's Cyclical Light. It was basically a continual light spell that would dim itself in the presence of other light sources. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 23:42:54
I think a spell that would naturally dim itself to be of a more reasonable level that was also permanent might have to be researched separately and therefore may cost more, or for one reason or another be more trouble than its worth.
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| Never |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 23:14:39
Isn't continual flame about the same light as a torch? Actually, looking over the posts you might be talking about a 2e spell, sorry.
Anyway, having a couple hundred, stationary continual flames does sound like it would weaken the 'plane wall.' Even if you didn't have fire elementals and such visiting, it's possible both that the flame would grow and begin to burn hotter and hotter as the 'wall' weakened. I can see all the lampposts in the city melting and leaving flaming pools on the streets with a little help from an evil cleric or mage.
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| DDH_101 |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 21:13:13
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
I still think that there isn’t any reason to NOT have magical lighting in a city. The Realms are, after all, a magical place.
that´s why i developed my theory: a city illuminated with continual light or daylight - spells would be extraordinary enough to be explicitly mentioned in official lore. i have yet to see that, so i gather that no city uses this kind of illumination. and because i did see no reason for not using such spells stated anywhere, i came up with my little hypothesis.
i don´t say it´s the correct reason or the only one. it´s just a theory that i hinted at in my game, that got my players hooked and kept interested, and has yet to get disproved. that´s why posted it: should there be any conflicts with established lore or game machanics, please say so!
divine implications are likewise interesting. perhaps there was a time when the nocturnal alleyways were as bright as the day, until everywhere, priests of shar, mask or other deities destroyed the bothersome lights and killed some enterprising mages...
tauster, like I said in my previous post, if you have continual light spells casted like lamp posts, the whole city would light up no matter what time of day. People would be going down the street with a blinding ball of light in their face and nobody would be able to sleep at night. |
| tauster |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 15:15:02
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
I still think that there isn’t any reason to NOT have magical lighting in a city. The Realms are, after all, a magical place.
that´s why i developed my theory: a city illuminated with continual light or daylight - spells would be extraordinary enough to be explicitly mentioned in official lore. i have yet to see that, so i gather that no city uses this kind of illumination. and because i did see no reason for not using such spells stated anywhere, i came up with my little hypothesis.
i don´t say it´s the correct reason or the only one. it´s just a theory that i hinted at in my game, that got my players hooked and kept interested, and has yet to get disproved. that´s why posted it: should there be any conflicts with established lore or game machanics, please say so!
divine implications are likewise interesting. perhaps there was a time when the nocturnal alleyways were as bright as the day, until everywhere, priests of shar, mask or other deities destroyed the bothersome lights and killed some enterprising mages... |
| Jindael |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 13:27:55
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
A DM under whom I played under years ago decided that Continual Light slowly consumed whatever it was cast upon, much as a candleflame consumes its wick. This creates a disincentive to using it for streetlighting because casting it on anything too large to steal (a lamppost, for example) means that that those would have to be replaced.
Remembering that a 2E Continual Light was as bright as daylight, consider the effect that would have on the surroundings: diurnal creatures awake until they fell from exhaustion, nocturnal animals afraid to venture from their dens, plants having tremendous vegetative growth but never producing flowers (and thus no seeds), lamplighters unemployed and turning to beggary.... Chauntea, Shar, Silvanus, Mask, and quite a few other deities would probably show their displeasure towards a city which used the spell for street lighting. Lathander wouldn't be too happy, either -- who needs a hot sun when any 3rd level wiz can produce "cool light" which is just a bright and portable?
I feel that most of these problems, while certainly true, would be totally unimportant inside of a city. No crops in back alleys and I’m sure most people don’t care about preserving the wildlife outside their place of business. Sure, when the magical lights went up in the first place, that generation of lamplighters would suffer, but consider that the lamplighters are likely probably hired by the local government, those people would be reassigned to new tasks (or simply sacked; there probably isn’t much concern about paying unemployment to a peasant).
I don’t think the nature deities are going to be really concerned about what happens in the cities. Also, they do allow their priests to cast the spell.
Mask would probably love the fact that a city is lit by these lights. Daylight in 60’ radius leaves some fantastically dark shadows.
Shar is probably more bothered by the fact that people keep doing things like existing. But, sure, I bet some of those teenage angsty kids (because you know that’s where Shar gets a lot of her worshipers =P) go around and knock down or steal the continual lighting in Shar’s name. Adds a little color and flavor to the city.
I still think that there isn’t any reason to NOT have magical lighting in a city. The Realms are, after all, a magical place.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 06:07:52
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Lathander wouldn't be too happy, either -- who needs a hot sun when any 3rd level wiz can produce "cool light" which is just a bright and portable?
Lathander isn't the deity of the sun. There is no Faerun deity of the sun since Amaunator died. Lathander is dawn, not sun. There is a difference. :)
It was more than 90° shortly after sunrise today across much of the American southwest. I am sure many people would have rather had Continual Light copper pieces than a sunrise today. I think many people in Chult, Mulhorand and elsewhere would concur.
Okay so? That wasn't my point. You said Lathander is the deity of the sun, he's not, because he is the deity of the dawn. Sun and dawn are two different things. I wasn't talking about the spell or continual light magical items. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 06:00:56
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Lathander wouldn't be too happy, either -- who needs a hot sun when any 3rd level wiz can produce "cool light" which is just a bright and portable?
Lathander isn't the deity of the sun. There is no Faerun deity of the sun since Amaunator died. Lathander is dawn, not sun. There is a difference. :)
It was more than 90° shortly after sunrise today across much of the American southwest. I am sure many people would have rather had Continual Light copper pieces than a sunrise today. I think many people in Chult, Mulhorand and elsewhere would concur. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 05:35:48
As Jamallo said, Continual Light is as bright as daylight. So imagine if there's as many of those as we have lamp posts in real life. People would be like blinded everywhere they walk and no one would get any sleep at night. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 03:38:41
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Lathander wouldn't be too happy, either -- who needs a hot sun when any 3rd level wiz can produce "cool light" which is just a bright and portable?
Lathander isn't the deity of the sun. There is no Faerun deity of the sun since Amaunator died. Lathander is dawn, not sun. There is a difference. :) |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 03:04:31
A DM under whom I played under years ago decided that Continual Light slowly consumed whatever it was cast upon, much as a candleflame consumes its wick. This creates a disincentive to using it for streetlighting because casting it on anything too large to steal (a lamppost, for example) means that that those would have to be replaced.
Remembering that a 2E Continual Light was as bright as daylight, consider the effect that would have on the surroundings: diurnal creatures awake until they fell from exhaustion, nocturnal animals afraid to venture from their dens, plants having tremendous vegetative growth but never producing flowers (and thus no seeds), lamplighters unemployed and turning to beggary.... Chauntea, Shar, Silvanus, Mask, and quite a few other deities would probably show their displeasure towards a city which used the spell for street lighting. Lathander wouldn't be too happy, either -- who needs a hot sun when any 3rd level wiz can produce "cool light" which is just a bright and portable?
|
| Jindael |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 17:46:43
Why would you think that continual light is not used for street lighting, though? Why limit it? Not that your idea doesn’t have merit, but when you read through a lot of the realms stuff, it either doesn’t state how light is provided, or, in a lot of cases, it tells you that continual light was used.
Continual light is a great money maker for wizards, and great for temple funds. At 50gp a pop, even in 2ed economy, not everyone has one, but the streets are lit, and the wealthy have them for lighting. Artisans visit the local spellcaster to add that extra touch to their sculpture. Clerics illuminate the frame of a painting that shows their god doing something holy.
Your theory is clever, but I don’t see a reason to limit the spell.
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| Forge |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 17:42:02
I think it might be better addressed from a psychological/theological basis. Mystra doesn't want the Weave used to address every whim of mankind. This is stated repeatedly in the Elminster series, and it may well be that Azuth took a hand in assuring it didn't happen.
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| tauster |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 16:59:57
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Interesting but has holes. Example: Low level adventurer dies in the sewers/tunnels/dungeons and his light sits for ages in one place.
approach to the problem:
...planar boundaries don´t have to be weak everywhere, so at the place said adventurer died, they are strong enough that the spell would need more time to "perforate" the boundary than it needs to destroy the item... |
| Forge |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 16:52:21
Interesting but has holes. Example: Low level adventurer dies in the sewers/tunnels/dungeons and his light sits for ages in one place. |
| Iliphar1 |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 10:53:44
I like that idea very much, especially the idea with the shadowstaves to prevent that every ruler on Toril had established street lights
In my campaign I toyed with the idea of demanding rather expensive gems (100+ gold ) for continual light spells and prevent mass production that way, but I like your idea better |
| webmanus |
Posted - 15 May 2005 : 22:03:04
This is ... it is ... great! This is really ... awesome!!
Now, about contradictions of theories ... sorry no comments. |
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