| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rudar Dimble |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 07:51:08
This is my first post here on the Candlekeep forums. I'm about to design a new quest and to do so I need some answers on a couple of questions on FR-history. May be you guys (and girls  ) could help?
1. What happened to Karsus after he casted his Karsus Avatar-spell in -339 DR?
My guess is he turned into stone and was somewhere in what now is known as Dire Wood, because I founded a Forgotten Realms Timeline which recorded Wulgreth (the wizard who was accidentaly turned into a lich by Karsus) destroying a city built near Karsus' stone dead form in -326 DR.
2. And what happened to Wulgreth after that? I found no record of him dying or something like that...
3. Who exactly was Jassin Aunglor? The guy who was buried alive, when (in an attempt of Jassin to kill the green wyrm Venom in -206 DR), the lair of the wyrm collapsed. And what has happened to his moonblade? Was is ever founded? And are any stats known about his moonblade or any description?
4. Is their any clue what happened to the lost Nether Scrolls after they were brought to the city of Karsus (-664 DR ) and what was written on them? The search for the stolen Nether Scrolls ended in -657 DR, but records I found don't tell that was because they were founded or people just gave up looking for them.
5. Part of my story is that I want to bring Karsus back alive and align him with the Red Wizards, who have found some of the Nether Scrolls. Another part is that Mystra is going to die (probably becuase of Karsus or something like that) and then the Seven Sisters take her place, all of them controlling one school of magic.Just one problem, there are 8 schools and only seven sisters. I was thinking of Elminster taking the last place, but it would be cool to have another woman take up the 8th school. Any suggestions?
6. How can I have Silverymoon destroyed/conquered and make it realistic? I was thinking of Alustriel becoming a Goddess (question 5), but that because Mystra died and magic has to be rearranged (8 goddesses instead of 1) the magical defenses of the city wouldn't work for a while. The Red Wizards take this opportunity to attack the city with the help of gnolls etc that are still in the neighbourhood of the city. Any suggestions or other ideas on this?
The quest will take the PC's from 1st upto 25th or 30th level.  Any hints, tips suggestions? I'm going to work out the exact plot in a few weeks, so any suggestions for the plot are welcome. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rudar Dimble |
Posted - 12 May 2005 : 18:38:56
Somewhere in this threat I was asking for a description on how an imprisoned Mystra would look like. Well, I think I found an excellent picture.
The man in the front would be Karsus...
http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/dbgallery/1/pyre.shtml
What do you think? |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 06:12:25
Thanks Rajorke, thats my point about being allowed to deny :) As for using it in the wrong way... If "regular" elves use High Magic to destroy Miyeritar, I don't see it any better than Dark Elves handling High Magic... :P |
| Rajorke |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 20:34:30
despite what a diety can do if they WANT to do it they still have a responosiblity to uphold their portfolios... if they were to start going around denying people the use of their portfolio or what power it conveys then Ao might see this aa the dieties not acting in the best interest of the mortals which they... serve. Dieties have a responsiblity to the mortals of the Realms and a responisbility to their portfolio if a creature is using their power and portfolio in a way that it is intended then that diety probably wouldn't be able to under their reponsibility to that portfolio deny the creature such access. |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 16:32:01
I'll check the books then.
Still remains whether they are allowed to unless in dire need, though. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 17:30:00
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
You got a citation for that? If so, I rest my case on them being able to. There would still remain the question of being allowed to except in cases of emergency, however...
Try the later two books in the Avatar series...
I'm at work, and my books are not, so that's the first thing off the top of my head. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 16:09:34
No quote is needed because there's more then 20+ examples of the deities doing just that. The deities in FR ARE thier portfolios and always have been. |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 13:36:01
*sigh* Thats what I meant about nitpicking. I was refering to CORELLONS divine rank, and you cant tell me its that unclear to see. We were never discussing any other DR than Corellons at that point. |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 11:41:58
You got a citation for that? If so, I rest my case on them being able to. There would still remain the question of being allowed to except in cases of emergency, however... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 11:31:01
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
And if the above two cant block their schools of magic - why by the gods should Corellon be able to block elven magic?
Because it is established fact that a deity can deny mortals access to that deity's portfolio. It's not spelled out for all the gods, sure, but it is a fact. If Selūne was irked at someone, she could keep the moon from shining on them and thwart any attempts to navigate. Chauntea could keep stuff from growing on their lands. And so on and so forth.
So even though it isn't stated, yes, Velsharoon could keep someone from using necromancy and Savras could keep someone from using divination. Since they both serve Mystra, she could override them -- but if she doesn't, then Bob the Blasphemous Necromancer and Sam the Apostate Seer would be out of luck (so to speak). |
| Melfius |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 10:06:27
That's one point I wanted to bring up - You don't need to have all seven of the Seven Sisters become deities should Mystra die. Qilué could remain mortal as 2 of the schools of magic already have deities: Velsharoon for Necromancy and Savras for Divination.
Also, remember: Elminster does not in a any way shape or form want to become a deity. Period. He has had his chance(s) and turned it (them) down. |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 06:22:02
*sigh*
Just because Eilistraees rank is listed doesnt mean a thing. Lolths is listed as well. Together with a bunch of other deities. But CORELLONS divine rank isn't in F&P, so that DR 19 isn't Greyhawk. Stop nitpicking my words please, I didnt claim that there was no DR's at all in F&P.
And his Portfolio is "magic" in FR too - not just "elven magic". But racial pantheons usually overlap their portfolios with the regular pantheon.
quote:
quote:
Citation? You are trying to prove something here. I am simply claiming that there IS no citation that actually supports your claim except 2E lore. And as good some 2E stuff is, here it conflicts with 3E. All other deities have special things mentioned, like being able to cut someone off from magic. Corellon doesnt. So he cant. Simple as that.
Where is your citation backing up that assertion? If you're going to call us on assumptions, don't make them yourself.
O.o
Mystra has it listed. Shar has it listed. Do you deny that? I can look up exact references, but those are well known facts. They can deny access to their weaves. Corellon hasn't listed anything even close, so he can't do it. Just like Savras can't cut someone off from divination. If you are asking me for a citation claiming specifically that Corellon CANT... Well, you show me a citation that claims Shar cant turn Mystra into an orange anytime she likes to, bypassing any immunity she might have.
Trying to disprove things like that is a fallacy. Its like asking someone to disprove god's existance.
Now answer me a few questions:
Where does it say that Savras can block someones divination?
Where does it say that Velsharoon can block Necromancy?
And if the above two cant block their schools of magic - why by the gods should Corellon be able to block elven magic? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 00:51:09
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
You might motice the FR Godess of Magic is not listed and that while Corellon Larethian is listed he is listed as "Greater Deity of Elves, Magic, Music, Arts & Crafts, War" as oposed to being listed as the God of Elven Magic.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding this part but thats what he is in FR as well...... Of course he has more portfolios in FR then just the above ones.
Well in GH they are "Rank, areas of concern" instead of portfolios.
The one difference I was trying to convey is that in GH Corellon is not limited/listed to "Elven Magic" as a portfolio.
This being in part a followup to claim that F&P did not include Dive Rank that the 19 rank was Greyhawk. That Corellon does appear to have the Divine Rank of 19 in FR as the entries do not match.
Also of course Corellon would appear to be 19 ranks above a Mystra individual in GH whon is not listed at all in the provided GH list, as oposed to him having one divine rank better in FR.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 00:35:01
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
You might motice the FR Godess of Magic is not listed and that while Corellon Larethian is listed he is listed as "Greater Deity of Elves, Magic, Music, Arts & Crafts, War" as oposed to being listed as the God of Elven Magic.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding this part but thats what he is in FR as well...... Of course he has more portfolios in FR then just the above ones. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 00:19:13
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Because the Divine Rank isnt in F&P, but in Deities & Demigods...
Dive Rank certainly is listed in F&P see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020503a
"Divine Rank: 7"
also you might want to look at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/articles/lg20030521deitiessearch
"Living Greyhawk Deities"
You might motice the FR Godess of Magic is not listed and that while Corellon Larethian is listed he is listed as "Greater Deity of Elves, Magic, Music, Arts & Crafts, War" as oposed to being listed as the God of Elven Magic.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 23:55:44
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Citation? You are trying to prove something here. I am simply claiming that there IS no citation that actually supports your claim except 2E lore. And as good some 2E stuff is, here it conflicts with 3E. All other deities have special things mentioned, like being able to cut someone off from magic. Corellon doesnt. So he cant. Simple as that.
Where is your citation backing up that assertion? If you're going to call us on assumptions, don't make them yourself. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 23:52:39
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
That Divine Rank is from Greyhawk *cough*
In any case, Corellon cant control crap about the Weave. Sorry, but with Shar and Mystra its specifically mentioned - with Corellon its not. Just like Velsharoon cant block Necromancy from some wizard he dislikes.
The only one to block spells from the Weave is Mystra, period. No matter the portfolio of other deities. Anything you rule beyond that is a house rule, nothing more.
Sorry, but just that PRESTIGE CLASS requirements rule out all except a specific array of elven subraces doesn't have to mean more than that its statistically impossible for anyone else to be taught High Magic. The High Magic entry in MoF doesnt suggest any elfblood requirement either. It simply says its only taught to elves.
You are making up assumptions, sorry.
You are making assumptions as well. And the High Magic entry in Magic of Faerūn is about three paragraphs long -- it's hardly what I'd call a definitive source on this topic.
Tell me this: if Corellon is (as is stated in 3E) in control of elven magic, then why would he not be able to regulate who among the elven races accesses it?
Oh, and since you brought up assumptions... You seem to be assuming that because drow are technically elven, they can use High Magic. This is not stated anywhere, so you are making an assumption yourself. |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:50:39
They come from Faerie, a world totally independant from the Forgotten Realms. There Corellon might have been all powerful over Magic, on Toril he can only do what Mystra allows him to.
Citation? You are trying to prove something here. I am simply claiming that there IS no citation that actually supports your claim except 2E lore. And as good some 2E stuff is, here it conflicts with 3E. All other deities have special things mentioned, like being able to cut someone off from magic. Corellon doesnt. So he cant. Simple as that. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:48:12
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
And on a slight addendum, the PrC requires approval from other High Mages. If this talent is "innate", one would wonder why an Elf couldnt discover it himself... Or how did the first elves discover it? If you ask me, it all screams RACIAL FLAIR requirements, not actually elfblood related ones.
Not to mention that the description puts Epic Magic and High Magic as near-identicals.
I have repeatedly asked you for citations, you have been provided citations from me and others.
The creation of Elves was from Corellon, if you acept that creation theory. If not where did they come from? |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:48:06
Because the Divine Rank isnt in F&P, but in Deities & Demigods... |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:40:25
And on a slight addendum, the PrC requires approval from other High Mages. If this talent is "innate", one would wonder why an Elf couldnt discover it himself... Or how did the first elves discover it? If you ask me, it all screams RACIAL FLAIR requirements, not actually elfblood related ones.
Not to mention that the description puts Epic Magic and High Magic as near-identicals. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:39:34
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
That Divine Rank is from Greyhawk *cough*
cite?
If you are cliaming F&P is GH only, why is Eilistraee in it?
|
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:34:04
That Divine Rank is from Greyhawk *cough*
In any case, Corellon cant control crap about the Weave. Sorry, but with Shar and Mystra its specifically mentioned - with Corellon its not. Just like Velsharoon cant block Necromancy from some wizard he dislikes.
The only one to block spells from the Weave is Mystra, period. No matter the portfolio of other deities. Anything you rule beyond that is a house rule, nothing more.
Sorry, but just that PRESTIGE CLASS requirements rule out all except a specific array of elven subraces doesn't have to mean more than that its statistically impossible for anyone else to be taught High Magic. The High Magic entry in MoF doesnt suggest any elfblood requirement either. It simply says its only taught to elves.
You are making up assumptions, sorry. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 20:18:53
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Then elves would still be effected because Mystra is still the main source of magic in FR. If she is gone, dead, etc, then magic wouldn't exist until she, and her Weave, is replaced. Corellon still controls elven magic but elves still have to use Mystra's Weave to cast thier magic.
The base theory, I think, is that the Weave will still exist, just that Mystra will not be moderating it. Thus the reason that magic goes wild zone as opposed to dead zone. If Corellon controls Elven magic as source indicated, it is posible that he could take part or all of the wildness out of it. There again Elven deities are Charotic so moderation might not be all that good.
Edit: If my quick check is correct. Corellon is Divine rank 19 and Mystra a mere 18. True the protfolio are not the same, however argument can be made Elven magic is controled by Corellon, because of the lower rank of Mystra. *wink*
Still up to the DM. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:51:39
quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
Well, the story is that Mystra is imprisoned by some Shar worshippers. I have already ruled that Faerun will be one big wild magic zone. Just checking whether this thing about Corellon changes anything about that for elven wizards
Then elves would still be effected because Mystra is still the main source of magic in FR. If she is gone, dead, etc, then magic wouldn't exist until she, and her Weave, is replaced. Corellon still controls elven magic but elves still have to use Mystra's Weave to cast thier magic. So it boils down to this: Mystra has more influence in FR in terms of magic then any of the other deities of magic since they, and thier races, have to use HER Weave.
But as was said, its your campaign and setting so of course you can change this to suit your needs. |
| Rudar Dimble |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:25:03
Well, it would certainly be a nice touch to let elves cast their magic like there was nothing wrong!  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:18:24
quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Then he needs to read page 8 of Magic of Faerun. :) "The head of the elven pantheon is also the deity of elven magic."
It's like this. Mystra is the Weave on Faerun/Toril/Fr's Prime and or crystal sphere, depending on what book you want to read, but Corellon and her have an agreement that he is allowed, and his elven people, are allowed to use the Weave to access thier spells. But he, as the god of elven magic, has complete control over elven high magic and elven magic.
Ok, but if I apply this rule to my quest, this doesn't mean that an elven wizard can still cast spells as if there was nothing wrong (while Mystra is captured), right?
You can apply what rules you desire to your campaign.
As for how elves will be effected is also up to you.
If you accept elves are part of the weave and Corellon controls Elven magic, the Elven magic users will either not be effected or at least not as effected as other races when trying to cast spells. Also that only aproved Elves can cast High (Elven Epic) Magic.
If you decide that Mystra being taken out of the picture causes all Weave to result in wild magic, then the elves have no better advantage then any other user of the Weave.
As already noted, you certainly can allow Drow and other non approved sub-races to use High (Elven Epic) magic. If there really is no difference between Elven Epic Magic and Epic Magic, there is little difference in what it is called. In part the ongoing discussion is to clarify what the history is to aid you to decide what history you will use and what you will change. In the end it is up to you. |
| Rudar Dimble |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:17:03
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Not sure what your asking cause I didn't read all of this thread but I'd say as long as Mystra is alive and there isn't another ToT's then an elven wizard could still cast spells. If Mystra died or there was another ToT's then either there would be no magic, until she was replaced, or magic would go wild again.
Well, the story is that Mystra is imprisoned by some Shar worshippers. I have already ruled that Faerun will be one big wild magic zone. Just checking whether this thing about Corellon changes anything about that for elven wizards |
| Kuje |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:10:50
quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
Ok, but if I apply this rule to my quest, this doesn't mean that an elven wizard can still cast spells as if there was nothing wrong (while Mystra is captured), right?
Not sure what your asking cause I didn't read all of this thread but I'd say as long as Mystra is alive and there isn't another ToT's then an elven wizard could still cast spells. If Mystra died or there was another ToT's then either there would be no magic, until she was replaced, or magic would go wild again. |
| Rudar Dimble |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:04:41
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal[/i]The basic argument we face is that the 2nd and prior history does not matter at all. That because Darkheyr has not seen any 3.x product that says Corellon has any control over Elven magic. The basic problem would appear to be that if you can not see it in 3.x it just use what 3.x says. That the Goddess of Magic controls the Weave she controls all of the Weave even Elven Weave.
Then he needs to read page 8 of Magic of Faerun. :) "The head of the elven pantheon is also the deity of elven magic."
It's like this. Mystra is the Weave on Faerun/Toril/Fr's Prime and or crystal sphere, depending on what book you want to read, but Corellon and her have an agreement that he is allowed, and his elven people, are allowed to use the Weave to access thier spells. But he, as the god of elven magic, has complete control over elven high magic and elven magic.
Ok, but if I apply this rule to my quest, this doesn't mean that an elven wizard can still cast spells as if there was nothing wrong (while Mystra is captured), right? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 18:36:05
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal[/i]The basic argument we face is that the 2nd and prior history does not matter at all. That because Darkheyr has not seen any 3.x product that says Corellon has any control over Elven magic. The basic problem would appear to be that if you can not see it in 3.x it just use what 3.x says. That the Goddess of Magic controls the Weave she controls all of the Weave even Elven Weave.
Then he needs to read page 8 of Magic of Faerun. :) "The head of the elven pantheon is also the deity of elven magic."
It's like this. Mystra is the Weave on Faerun/Toril/Fr's Prime and or crystal sphere, depending on what book you want to read, but Corellon and her have an agreement that he is allowed, and his elven people, are allowed to use the Weave to access thier spells. But he, as the god of elven magic, has complete control over elven high magic and elven magic. |
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