| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 01:46:37
What are the opinions of one generation of a moonblade's wielder to have added/made the moonblade become a Holy Avenger + it's other powers (meaning when that elf claimed it, the sword's new traits were that of a Holy Avenger.)
Thoughts? |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 22:45:59
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Just an aside:
Dargoth, how can you possibly say that elves can't be paladins? You're essentially ruling that an elven character can only be chaotic good and may never change. Unless of course you're thinking of the pre-3e restriction, which is absurd in and of itself.
I think he may be referring to the one-step rule... |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 21:37:44
Just an aside:
Dargoth, how can you possibly say that elves can't be paladins? You're essentially ruling that an elven character can only be chaotic good and may never change. Unless of course you're thinking of the pre-3e restriction, which is absurd in and of itself. |
| Sorenna_Melruth |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 22:42:48
Okay, elves are something I know a bit about, when it comes to giving powers to a Moonblade, you should judge the character for who and what the character is, being a blade weilder is both an honor and a curse.
Each weilder give its rune as what it feels would serve it best, I do not believe that it could give the moonblade the powers of a Holy Avenger for only one reason, it is more then one power.
If he wanted it Holy, it would gain the +2d6 verus's evil creatures and the like.
Many moonblade's have so many powers that have have reach Artifact level.
I also do not think that if a bladefalls dorment that it looses everything it is simply sleeping, once it is reawakened it still has the powers imparted to it.
Elaith is a good example, his blade activated he did not put a rune on it, but he choose to name his daughter his blade heir and place the blade away.
In game terms I would think once a Moon blade reaches a +10 cost that it becomes an artifact.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 12:24:39
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
I don't think the souls are recalled when the blade goes dormant. Why? Because the first soul were the souls of the archmages that imbued the swords, and ultimately I think they're released as well, thus making the sword useless forever.
But we know that the sword can be reactivated, so it's not useless forever... |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 09:05:38
Except that we know that it is possible to "reactivate" a dormant moonblade. So at the very least the first (archmage) soul must come back. If one, why shouldn't all? They're tied to the moonblade until their work is done. If the blade is reawakened, their work is obviously not done yet. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 06:05:22
I don't think the souls are recalled when the blade goes dormant. Why? Because the first soul were the souls of the archmages that imbued the swords, and ultimately I think they're released as well, thus making the sword useless forever. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 05:03:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because, as Elaith Craulnober proved, sometimes either the sword is mistaken
I don't think the sword was mistaken/wrong. I think the person changed. At least that's how I read Elfsong. Moreover, it's obvious the work by the Craulnober Moonblade had yet to be done. Thus, again, if the moonblade's work has been completed, I don't understand how it can be reactivated. That's making it sound like an rechargeable battery. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 04:52:13
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
What makes you think all Moonblades are artifacts?
Judging by what Ethlando says there would be only 1-3 all powerful Moonblades "That a King might wield" (Which I translate to mean artifacts level items in 3ed)
I think that, after enough time has passed and enough powers have been added, moonblades are the equivalent of very minor artifacts.
Some points:
They are from ages ago and can't be readily made now.
They are powerful, oftentimes more powerful than other magical blades.
There was never a large number of them to begin with.
They are limited to a specific race, and even among that race, they can only be wielded by a very select few.
They have a specific purpose, and cease to function when their purpose is fulfilled.
The sword chooses the wielder, and the penalty for not being that wielder (at least in 2E) was death.
Sure, none of these things are specifically limited to artifacts -- but all of them put together, in one item or class of items, certainly makes that item or class into something far more significant than even the most powerful magical item in the DMG. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 04:36:34
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
From Evermeet
"When the swords work is done, it becomes dormant. Its magic flees and the essence of all its previous wielders is released to Arvando"
When a sword is reactivated it would only have the powers that it had before the first elf wielded it ie the Power to judge. A Reactivated Moonblade would start from scratch
Why would a sword reactivate if the sword's work is done?
Because, as Elaith Craulnober proved, sometimes either the sword is mistaken, or because the situation changes in an unforeseen way. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 03:27:16
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
From Evermeet
"When the swords work is done, it becomes dormant. Its magic flees and the essence of all its previous wielders is released to Arvando"
When a sword is reactivated it would only have the powers that it had before the first elf wielded it ie the Power to judge. A Reactivated Moonblade would start from scratch
Why would a sword reactivate if the sword's work is done? |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 29 Mar 2005 : 23:32:40
From Evermeet
"When the swords work is done, it becomes dormant. Its magic flees and the essence of all its previous wielders is released to Arvando"
When a sword is reactivated it would only have the powers that it had before the first elf wielded it ie the Power to judge. A Reactivated Moonblade would start from scratch
What makes you think all Moonblades are artifacts?
Judging by what Ethlando says there would be only 1-3 all powerful Moonblades "That a King might wield" (Which I translate to mean artifacts level items in 3ed)
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| Hoondatha |
Posted - 29 Mar 2005 : 20:29:12
Exactly. I consider all moonblades to be artifacts, period. Under ideal circumstances they are to be kept out of PC hands (pretty easy since to have one you'd have to be a moon elven noble [I think] of an old and powerful family, and there's only a few families that still have the blade).
And my sources for the souls returning are exactly the same as yours that they don't: there aren't any. The topic isn't directly addressed. However, since it's called "reawakening" and a big deal is made that the elven souls are tied to the moonblade as long as it's active, it makes sense to me that they would be recalled to service. Why do you think they don't? (not meant to be sarcastic) |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 29 Mar 2005 : 19:10:51
Hmm, not really worried about the +10 system, but then again you're right, a keen holy avenger is pretty powerful. |
| Jindael |
Posted - 29 Mar 2005 : 01:38:28
Using just "Holy Avenger" seems to be circumventing the basic system. After all, Holy Avenger is a combination of powers, not just one power within itself. So, it's very powerful, obviously. (Especially the greater dispel thing.)
However, it's not horrible, as long as you have a good backstory. (A Moonblade without a backstory is just a super powerful magic weapon, IMO.) After all, a Paladin of Freedom (from the 3ed Unearthed Arcana ) or a Champion of Corellon (from Races of the Wild) could certainly benefit from the "paladin" only abilities, and could just as easily have that be their power that they passed on. Just keep in mind that Holy Avenger plus other powers, is certainly going to send the sword into epic power levels. (number wise; personally, I think that if the Moonblade's other powers are like "Detects Gems 1/day 100 ft radius" and "Allows the wielder to understand the speech of demons" you aren't dealing with something devastating as far as powers. But if you add Flaming burst and Keen, then yes, it's probably overkill.)
If you are dealing with a character who wants to add that power, as a DM, I'd say no. Holy Avenger is a set of powers, you can't buy a whole package for the price of one power. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 23:42:25
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I disagree with virtually everything else, however. Just because a particular moonblade does not have many powers does not necessarily mean that those powers are not powerful. Need alone determines what the powers are, and they are not in any way dependent upon what is already in the blade.
Also, if a dormant blade is reactivated, all the previous souls are recalled from Arvandor, thus reactivating all the old powers. Even if that's only one or two, that could still mean teleport without error 3/day and glasshields 1/day (just to grab two powers out of the air) because the first wielder was an only child and needed to survive to continue his house, and the second got into a war with a bunch of force mages and needed some way to shatter their shields. Both are powerful abilities, driven by the need of that bearer, and have no influence on powers before or after them.
Wing it, I say. Anything else is way too contraining.
Then your pretty much going to eliminate Moonblade ownership for every expcet an Epic level chaacter in fact if you insist on allowing each wielder to imbue the sword with any power you like then you are going to make the Moonblade illigal under 3ed as a weapon can only be enchanted up to the equivelant of 10+
As for Elven souls being recalled from Arvandor when a Moonblade is reactivated kindly provide proof? I have never seen it written anywhere that a reactived Moonblade gets all its powers back. I have however seen it written that when a Moonblade goes dormant the souls of the previous wielders are released their job for the elven people done |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 19:05:08
I agree that it would be unlikely to find a holy avenger moonblade (even if one of its wielders was a paladin). I think it much more likely for it to have become holy going through the Fall (because, well, EVERYTHING attacking that place was evil).
I disagree with virtually everything else, however. Just because a particular moonblade does not have many powers does not necessarily mean that those powers are not powerful. Need alone determines what the powers are, and they are not in any way dependent upon what is already in the blade.
Also, if a dormant blade is reactivated, all the previous souls are recalled from Arvandor, thus reactivating all the old powers. Even if that's only one or two, that could still mean teleport without error 3/day and glasshields 1/day (just to grab two powers out of the air) because the first wielder was an only child and needed to survive to continue his house, and the second got into a war with a bunch of force mages and needed some way to shatter their shields. Both are powerful abilities, driven by the need of that bearer, and have no influence on powers before or after them.
Wing it, I say. Anything else is way too contraining. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 04:12:00
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Well was thinking of the "previous" wielder to have been at the Fall of Myth Drannor, and maybe that's how the sword became a Holy Avenger, I had thought of the Holy traint alone, but I was more curious about just making it a Holy Avenger against evil, +2 against everything else and wondering what the thoughts were about that being 1 ruin.
Using the system I described an earlier wielder may have given it the Bane: Evil Outsider ability which would have allowed a descendant to stack the +2 Holy ability on top of it
I dont think Holy avenger would apporiate for a Moonblade as theres specficly designed for Paladins and Elven deities cant have Paladin orders |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 04:08:54
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
That'd be an interesting system if it wasn't for the fact that Arilyn's moonblade possessed several different powers that far exceeded any standard "point" system.
True but I consider the Ef Shadow and Elf gate abilities to be Unique to Arilyns Moonblade (Which a player is unlikely to come across)
Officially a Magical weapon can have up to 10+ worth of abilities beyond that and its an artifact (And its debatable as to whether Moonblades may well be Elven artifacts)
In addition the more Powerful the Moonblade the more fussy it is about who can wield it.
Something else to consider
Not all Moonblades are as powerful as Arilyns.
The more wielders a Moonblade has the more powerful it becomes not all Moonblades would have had a wielder in each generation, remember a Family was not required to claim a sword when its wielder died the Moonblade could "sit on the shelf" until someone in the family was willing to claim it. While it was sitting on the Shelf it was not gaining any powers. A moonblade today may only have 3 powers having only had 3 wielders. Then of cause the theres the lost and Dormant Moonblades. A Dormant Moonblade when dead when its family died out or where unworthy (See Elaith) it can however be "reactivated" (See Elfsong) now a character who finds a Dormant Moonblade may be able to reactivate it but it wouldnt have any powers other than what he or she gave it (The souls of all previous wielders having left the sword when it went Dormant) A lost Moonblade has the same problem as one "sitting on the shelf" and there are ALOT of lost Moonblades
Ethlando created 300 Moonblades in -9000DR
In 714DR only 25 Moonblade wielders came to decide ho would be the King of Evermeet. Theres 26 if you include the Evil one that Moander corrupted. Which means there are 274 lost or Dormant Moonblades floating around Faerun. No doubt theres probably quite a few in Myth Drannor and among the ruins of a half dozen other Elven civilizations
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| SirUrza |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 03:46:16
Well was thinking of the "previous" wielder to have been at the Fall of Myth Drannor, and maybe that's how the sword became a Holy Avenger, I had thought of the Holy traint alone, but I was more curious about just making it a Holy Avenger against evil, +2 against everything else and wondering what the thoughts were about that being 1 ruin. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 03:36:46
I agree. I'm much more in the "wing it" category when it comes to statting moonblades. It's just a way too flexible system to lock down into a system like Dargoth's (no offense).
Look for example at the Starym moonblade, which was built from scrat in a rulebook (ie: not shown in a novel first):
* is intelligent and communicates through speech
* detect gems/precious metals in 100' radius at will
* create a mythal ghost of a 7th level fighter at will
* wail of the banshee 1/day
* teleport without error to random place within 100 miles at will
I personally can't think of any system other than powers randomly arising out of necessity that could account for all that. |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 03:20:17
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
That'd be an interesting system if it wasn't for the fact that Arilyn's moonblade possessed several different powers that far exceeded any standard "point" system.
That's the problem with trying to stat out novel characters/items. Take a look at Drizzt's scimitar, Icing death. Grants immunity to fire and uber-bane vs. fire creatures. When they stat it out they totally get rid of the Immunity to Fire and make it a simple +3 Frost Scimitar (at least as far as 3E is concerned).
Charon's Claw would be an even tougher item to stat out.
Even using Dargoth's system, Arilyn's moonblade would be a +8 weapon if I remember correctly (8 wielders right?). That would be pretty darn powerful.
As for your original question. I would probably just stick with Holy instead of the Holy Avenger. Unless of course the wielder who enchanted it was an Elven Paladin than I might allow it. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 03:06:49
That'd be an interesting system if it wasn't for the fact that Arilyn's moonblade possessed several different powers that far exceeded any standard "point" system. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 02:24:30
The system Im looking at (its still a work in progress) involves a potential Moon Blade claimer having to take a modified version of the the Ancesteral Relic feat from BOED
Each wielder can add 1 +1 ability to the Moonblade however they can stack
For example
Sarka Claims the Moonblade and decides to give it the Bane: Undead
Sarka dies and the sword is past on to her son Eldern
Eldern imbues the sword with Shock
Eldern dies and pass his sword on to his son Oril
Oril imbues the power with Disruption, Disruption is a +2 Ability but because Sarka gave it the Bane: Undead ability he can make the jump to Disruption, when Oril imbues the sword with Disruption the sword looses the Bane: Undead power, it is now a Moon Blade with the Shock and Disruption powers. If Orils Blade Heir decides to Imbue the sword with Bane: undead then the sword becomes a Moon Blade with the Shock, Disruption and Bane: Undead ability, the Undead bane ability is Orils not Sarkas |
