| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 03:42:34
I was talking to a friend recently, and it was brought up that groups like the Zhents and the Harpers are a bit too busy in the Realms. I know they're highly influential, but isn't the Harper(Moonstar, ect.) agent good-guy/Zhent(or Cult, or Red Wizard, ect.) villian a bit of a cliche? Are there really that many Harpers? Why do so many character have to be linked to shadowy affiliations? Why aren't temple interests equally mentioned? How about the more politically motivated dragons or similar beings? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| the psychotic seaotter |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 00:50:30
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
I think of the Zhentarim as being similar to Nazi Germany in that they are this big army of black-clad soldiers. They have a palpable presence of evil in the Realms. Yes, some of them are low-level flunkies, some of them guard wharehouses and try to kill off low level party members, these guys are like your everyday Nazi soldier, just a regular guy doing his job. Then you have the higher levels of the Zhentarim, much like the SS. These guys are the badasses, they have survived and risen to the top of the organization. These high level Zhentarim are serious business, and a challenge for high-level parties. Then you have your Zhentarim agents, this is where the secrecy comes in. You never know, there could be a Zhentarim spy in the next room, the next table, or even in your own party.
This is just how the Zhentarim are used in my campaigns, take it or leave it, I'm just throwing it out there.
The only downfall is that WOTC screwed the difference betwen the Zhentlar and the Zhantarim up. The Zheltlar would be your shock troops or Nazi soldiers.
Still using the Nazi reference (wich is close ot how I see them but not quite) the Zhentarim would have been the guys in the shadows telling Adolf what to do.
To put it in more modern terms, if you subscribe to conspiracy theory (wich I do not) the Zhentarim wouldbe the Illuminati of the bunch. They guys really in charge but no one knows for sure they exsist.
The best way I have found to run the Zhents as a whole is that the Zhentlar are the most encountered and prominent Zhent force. The Zhentarim however is rarely encountered.
When I do use A Zhentarim agent it is rare that the party either wins or takes the agent alive. As far as 99% of Faerun is concerned the Zhentarim, if even heard of, is a myth. |
| Xysma |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 13:40:39
I think of the Zhentarim as being similar to Nazi Germany in that they are this big army of black-clad soldiers. They have a palpable presence of evil in the Realms. Yes, some of them are low-level flunkies, some of them guard wharehouses and try to kill off low level party members, these guys are like your everyday Nazi soldier, just a regular guy doing his job. Then you have the higher levels of the Zhentarim, much like the SS. These guys are the badasses, they have survived and risen to the top of the organization. These high level Zhentarim are serious business, and a challenge for high-level parties. Then you have your Zhentarim agents, this is where the secrecy comes in. You never know, there could be a Zhentarim spy in the next room, the next table, or even in your own party.
This is just how the Zhentarim are used in my campaigns, take it or leave it, I'm just throwing it out there.
Red Wizards can be used effectively, as long as you don't overdo it. I played in a campaign not long ago in which I was an agent of the Rundeem Consortium who was trying to break up the Red Wizards' foray into the slave trade down in the Black Jungle. It was a great campaign, I didn't feel like it was a cliche at all.
I've had some memorable games using monks of Bhaal. By using many of the old cliches of women and children disappearing in the night, and bodies disappearing from the local graveyard, the community has lost contact with a temple outside of town etc. I had the group convinced that ther were becoming vampire hunters, only for them to find a cabal of Bhaal worshipping monks who have created an altar from the bodies they exhumed and have been offering living sacrifices, trying to resurrect Bhaal.
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| DDH_101 |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 00:03:02
I agree. Unless, the sourcebook gives more details on the number, such as maybe a region by region focus on the Zhentarim, it's not possible to get a true and definite answer. |
| Lashan |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 11:26:50
quote:
Lashan, that number came straight out of Lords of Darkness. Actually to be exact the sourcebook said, "At least 10000, mainly located in the Moonsea area". The sourcebook doesn't bother counting those nameless lackeys or informants that don't have a real tie to the Zhentarim. I wasn't too surprised by the number, considering Zhentarim isn't just "Zhentil Keep", contrary to what many think. They've got cells in Mulmaster, Voonlar, Yulash, Mintar, Teshwave, Darkhold, Citadel of the Ravens, etc. Then there's also the ones who operate not from direct headquarters, such as independent agents or the beholder allies.
I read the LOD entry and I tend to think that this means 10,000 of available forces. I count this as zhentilar, local thugs, etc. This is where we have a difference of opinion. I see that we won't change each other's mind so I won't argue either point. Thank you for offering your opinion. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 06 Dec 2004 : 22:59:41
quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Lashan, I wouldn't call the Zhentarim a "small" group. It's one of the largest organization in Faerun with over 10,000 members, okay? That's bigger than most armies...
I first ask where you get the info that it has 10k+ members? If there is a printed book that states it, I am sure that they include proxies and smaller groups that might not know they are in the organization (including the Zhentil Keep army). Perhaps things have changed with the new 3E and the Zhentarium includes all the low level people and there is an army of guys in black with big Z's on thier chests. If things have changed between versions, I think it is a bad decision.
Elf_friend, I do let my players in on the fact that it is the zhentarium behind much mischief, but not at first. It seems to me that it is more exciting when a secret plot is slowly discovered rather then from the get go. Of course, this is only based on my experience and my style of play. My players start off with no knowledge of the Zhentarium, but after a while, they start to suspect that everyone could be part of the plot.
Lashan, that number came straight out of Lords of Darkness. Actually to be exact the sourcebook said, "At least 10000, mainly located in the Moonsea area". The sourcebook doesn't bother counting those nameless lackeys or informants that don't have a real tie to the Zhentarim. I wasn't too surprised by the number, considering Zhentarim isn't just "Zhentil Keep", contrary to what many think. They've got cells in Mulmaster, Voonlar, Yulash, Mintar, Teshwave, Darkhold, Citadel of the Ravens, etc. Then there's also the ones who operate not from direct headquarters, such as independent agents or the beholder allies. |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 06 Dec 2004 : 17:24:57
quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
[quote]
Elf_friend, I do let my players in on the fact that it is the zhentarium behind much mischief, but not at first. It seems to me that it is more exciting when a secret plot is slowly discovered rather then from the get go.
Ah, I agree completely with that approach. Must have misunderstood your intent. |
| Lashan |
Posted - 06 Dec 2004 : 16:13:28
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Lashan, I wouldn't call the Zhentarim a "small" group. It's one of the largest organization in Faerun with over 10,000 members, okay? That's bigger than most armies...
I first ask where you get the info that it has 10k+ members? If there is a printed book that states it, I am sure that they include proxies and smaller groups that might not know they are in the organization (including the Zhentil Keep army). Perhaps things have changed with the new 3E and the Zhentarium includes all the low level people and there is an army of guys in black with big Z's on thier chests. If things have changed between versions, I think it is a bad decision.
Elf_friend, I do let my players in on the fact that it is the zhentarium behind much mischief, but not at first. It seems to me that it is more exciting when a secret plot is slowly discovered rather then from the get go. Of course, this is only based on my experience and my style of play. My players start off with no knowledge of the Zhentarium, but after a while, they start to suspect that everyone could be part of the plot. |
| Lashan |
Posted - 06 Dec 2004 : 16:13:05
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Lashan, I wouldn't call the Zhentarim a "small" group. It's one of the largest organization in Faerun with over 10,000 members, okay? That's bigger than most armies...
I first ask where you get the info that it has 10k+ members? If there is a printed book that states it, I am sure that they include proxies and smaller groups that might not know they are in the organization (including the Zhentil Keep army). Perhaps things have changed with the new 3E and the Zhentarium includes all the low level people and there is an army of guys in black with big Z's on thier chests. If things have changed between versions, I think it is a bad decision.
Elf_friend, I do let my players in on the fact that it is the zhentarium behind much mischief, but not at first. It seems to me that it is more exciting when a secret plot is slowly discovered rather then from the get go. Of course, this is only based on my experience and my style of play. My players start off with no knowledge of the Zhentarium, but after a while, they start to suspect that everyone could be part of the plot. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 05 Dec 2004 : 05:17:54
Hmm... well, most thieves guilds and criminal organizations often have a priest of Mask at the top, whether as a boss or advisor. They often play a very important role.
However, I agree about the independence, as a certain amount of secrecy is needed even inside the church to protect the higher-ranking members. |
| the psychotic seaotter |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 23:08:44
True but I always seen Masks followers as independant cells rather than interconnected. Pertially due to the fact that if one major guild was brought down that took some important priests out the other churches in other cities would not be found out.
In cases where Cities my have close alliances being officially connected to a guils a town over could be dangerous. I'd say if anything it is a very loose organsation rather than tightly laced.
Then again that is just how I always ran them. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 22:52:04
psychotic seaotter, I wouldn't say that the Church of Mask is just effective in one city. They are different than most of the other churches in Faerun, but similar to the relationship of the Zhentarim and the Church of Bane.
If you read about where most of the Shadowlord's worshipers and influence are, it's mostly in thieves guilds and criminal organizations around the Realms. For example, Mask's largest temple is in Teflamn, and it's also the guildhouse for the Shadowmasters of Teflamn. The Shadowlord also has a huge influence in Amn, mostly Athkatla, and that's because of their affliciation with the Shadow Thieves. A large majority of the religious members in the Shadow Thieves follow Mask. |
| the psychotic seaotter |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 20:55:59
To expand on that I would say you need to look how each church's dogma is.
Shar's church would not act in the open. Her Clerics and worshipors would be working behind the scenes, possibly posing as advisors, shopkeepers or even teachers at a magic academy.
Whereas Banes Clergy may actually take roles in armies or in leadership to further their gods influence.
The churches like Mask's church would only be effective in one town, city or minor region.
I used to not like Lords of Darkness but it did present some excellent alternitives to useing the Zhents all the time. In fact I wish they would do one on the good orgs to show us alternitives to the Harpers and other large orgs.
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| DDH_101 |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 16:54:28
quote:
Originally posted by Blayke
"Why aren't temple interests equally mentioned?"
I agree somewhat that temple interest are not as fleshed out as much as the interest of the more popular orginazations. But they are there...but as I said they arent as fleshed out...they exist but its up to the DM to give them more depth.
The churches of evil gods such as Shar, Bane, and Cyric have been given the spotlight in Lord of Darkness.
I agree with what you say about temple interests, Blayke. Some people think that churches should act and respond like the other major organizations such as the Zhentarims or the Harpers. Unlike the other organizations, the churches do not focus in one specific region (Zhentarim in the Moonseas, Red Wizards in Thay) but have them everywhere on Faerun to spread their influence and the words of their gods. You would rarely see a whole army of priests and churchmen of Bane, but a maybe a couple of clerics devoted to the Lord of Strife in an army. |
| Blayke |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 14:23:25
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
I was talking to a friend recently, and it was brought up that groups like the Zhents and the Harpers are a bit too busy in the Realms. I know they're highly influential, but isn't the Harper(Moonstar, ect.) agent good-guy/Zhent(or Cult, or Red Wizard, ect.) villian a bit of a cliche? Are there really that many Harpers? Why do so many character have to be linked to shadowy affiliations? Why aren't temple interests equally mentioned? How about the more politically motivated dragons or similar beings?
For myself in running the realms, I often use Harpers and the Zhentariam as a introduction to the realms to players that have never experienced FR before. Call it a introductory reference point if you want.
Is it a bit of a cliche? IMHO without a doubt. Yet it is a very well thought out cliche that many players often look for in a new campaign/world (not saying FR is new but it is new for players that have never experienced FR before).
Are there really that many Harpers? Considering the nature of the orginization (being so secretive even to existing members) I dont find it unlikely at all.
"Why do so many character have to be linked to shadowy affiliations?"
IMHO that is a gift for a DM in a FR campaign. Every DM has a different style and one potential plot device may not be as attractive as another...thus the multitude of options. And that is just reason,there are many more imo but I am not sure I could/want to list all of them here.
"Why aren't temple interests equally mentioned?"
I agree somewhat that temple interest are not as fleshed out as much as the interest of the more popular orginazations. But they are there...but as I said they arent as fleshed out...they exist but its up to the DM to give them more depth.
"How about the more politically motivated dragons or similar beings?"
Perhaps you should attempt to aquire more source material. Please take no offense to this but I say it out of experience. I play a 3E game but have a lot of FR source material from my ole 1e and 2e games...and even after running a few 3e games I kept buying used FR campaign source material.
The things you are looking for do exist but you either havent seen them yet or its not as in depth as perhaps you want (or they are out of print in which case I reccomend shopping around for used items through the internet or local gaming shops)...and for the lack of depth I have found many FR novels have fleshed out some of the less detailed politically motivated beings/orginazations in FR.
I hope that helps and if I not I humbly apologize for my lack of conveying it in written word. |
| the psychotic seaotter |
Posted - 04 Dec 2004 : 01:03:52
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Sounds interesting, but how is Shar going to convince Lathander to do such a thing? They are so opposite that I'm surprised Lathander would even talk to her.
She won't say a thing however certain suggestions will appear to him that will make him think it is time to try again. The best part is she would also let Helm know what was up when the time was right. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 23:12:46
Sounds interesting, but how is Shar going to convince Lathander to do such a thing? They are so opposite that I'm surprised Lathander would even talk to her. |
| the psychotic seaotter |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 18:05:55
I'll give it to you in a nutshell since we may got Off topic with it so if you want to know more e-mail or PM me. 
Basically the Church of Shar has been reciveing interesting instructions and some of them are to assist Lathanders church. At the same time the Iron Throne sees a possibility to take some of the Zhnets holdings since they have been weakened by the current strife between Cyricists and Banites.
Their first sucess has happened when they personally armed a force out of Secomber to remove the Zhents from Llorkh and Loudwater. This opened them up to set up new trade in the cities and solidfy thier power.
Meanwhile...
Shar has been tempting a certain master of Darkhold into coming over to the Shadow Weave. She has made sure certian members of the staff are her priests and they have been swaying Semmemon to beliveing a Cyric controlled Zhentarim would be a disaster. Her goal here is to make Semmemon her chosen and beging making Chosen of Shar to combat the Chosen of Mystra.
Furthermore her helping of Lathanders Church is directly related to her spies convicing him to start the incantations that resulted in the DC.
Shar has a few goals that will take time to develop. I plan on taking this from around 1363-1372 and change some events to my liking.
Just in case your wondering this is Shars Plans:
1. Create Chosen of Shar
2. Use the Iron Throne to further weaken the Zhents for Semmemon to take over.
3. Create a Shadow Weave version of Spellfire (nicknamed Darkfire)
4. Tempt Velsharoon over to the Shadoweave
5. Destroy Mystra and take the magic portfolio as a slap in the face to Selune and give Shar an udeniable advantage in their eternal conflict.
6. Have Lathander recreate the DC and use her new power to subjucate the pantheon to her will.
Yeah kinda cheesey but I need a few plans in case the PCs mess some of them up.
I'm still fleshing some of this out but I have laid the groundwork for some of this in my last few games. Needless to say I think the players will be surprised. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 17:40:34
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
I know I am personally using the Church of Shar and the Iron Throne in my next few games I have a good plot going with them that may shake my world up a bit.
Oh, how? Details, details, don't be a tease. 
|
| the psychotic seaotter |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 17:35:24
I know I am personally using the Church of Shar and the Iron Throne in my next few games I have a good plot going with them that may shake my world up a bit.
I still use the Zhents but since I am playing about 3-4 years after the ToT they are currently not as effective as they were since they are focusing on internal problems. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 15:45:38
quote:
Originally posted by KingOfThieves
Other great organizations with money and manpower are:
The Kraken Society (pirates and smugglers)
The Iron Throne (Slavers and criminals just like the Zhents)
The Pirates of the Sea of Fallen Stars/Sword coast
Various Temples (Shar, Mask, Bane)
The Arcane Brotherhood (Luskan)
The Cult of the Dragon
The City of Shade
And of course my new favorite:
The Scaled Ones (Sharruks) from the Serpent Kingdoms book.
Don't forget the Twisted Rune, the Rundeen, and the Tel'Teukiira. The Tel'Teukiira are my personal fave. |
| KingOfThieves |
Posted - 03 Dec 2004 : 15:38:06
Other great organizations with money and manpower are:
The Kraken Society (pirates and smugglers)
The Iron Throne (Slavers and criminals just like the Zhents)
The Pirates of the Sea of Fallen Stars/Sword coast
Various Temples (Shar, Mask, Bane)
The Arcane Brotherhood (Luskan)
The Cult of the Dragon
The City of Shade
And of course my new favorite:
The Scaled Ones (Sharruks) from the Serpent Kingdoms book. |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 02 Dec 2004 : 16:14:09
quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
Shadewalker, I believe that the zhents working in the open is due to a lazy DM. The way I believe that they SHOULD be played is in the shadows, like all the other organizations. The Black Network is really a small group of people who use others around them to accomplish what they want. The muscle for the zhentarium is either the zhentilar at home or through gangs, bandits, and other proxies outside of lands controled by Zhentil Keep. The idea is that one or a few zhentarium agents hire local help (who are clueless as to what is really going on) to accomplish the local tasks. It's not like there is an army of zhentarium soliders with big Z's on their chest waiting to clim the ranks of the secret society ladder. Unless there is some incriminating evidence, the party might not even know that the local bad guy is a zhentarium!
YMMV of course. I think it's kind of pointless to use an organization and never ever let on to your players that that is the target of their ire. I think you can let on in stages as to who the big baddies are and you should. Otherwise the PC's are just floundering in the darkness with no purpose other than defeating the next bad guy to come around. |
| Lina |
Posted - 02 Dec 2004 : 10:00:17
Zhents and Harpers are the most known and influential groups in the realms cos they have the manpower and money. The Red Wizards of Thay are another widely known influential group, not as large but what they lack in numbers, magic and powerful political connection make up for it. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 02 Dec 2004 : 00:07:45
Lashan, I wouldn't call the Zhentarim a "small" group. It's one of the largest organization in Faerun with over 10,000 members, okay? That's bigger than most armies... |
| Lashan |
Posted - 01 Dec 2004 : 15:33:57
Shadewalker, I believe that the zhents working in the open is due to a lazy DM. The way I believe that they SHOULD be played is in the shadows, like all the other organizations. The Black Network is really a small group of people who use others around them to accomplish what they want. The muscle for the zhentarium is either the zhentilar at home or through gangs, bandits, and other proxies outside of lands controled by Zhentil Keep. The idea is that one or a few zhentarium agents hire local help (who are clueless as to what is really going on) to accomplish the local tasks. It's not like there is an army of zhentarium soliders with big Z's on their chest waiting to clim the ranks of the secret society ladder. Unless there is some incriminating evidence, the party might not even know that the local bad guy is a zhentarium! |
| Shadewalker |
Posted - 27 Nov 2004 : 10:37:13
At least the evil organisations, I know a few who have a lot of money and manpower.
The reason, why the Zhents are the most known, ss that other evil organisations (like the church of Shar, Red Wizards) act more in the shadows, not this open like the zhents.
And then, there are other groups who are located on one special place (Drows or Cormanthor / Night Masks).
And I think, the last point is the laziness of the DM. It's like, if I didn't have the LoD, I just wouldn't buy it to look which organisation fits best in on this place, with this mentions etc for the enemies of my group. I would say: "There is a castle of the Zhents", cause they always fit in, they are everywhere...
I think, these are the main reasons why these both organisations are the best known. |
| the psychotic seaotter |
Posted - 26 Nov 2004 : 23:00:16
I have been been keeping the Zhentarim seperate from the main body of Zhents for some time now. I also have things set up where only a few know the truth about the Zhentarim and they are the upper tiers of the Harpers and various rulers whom the Harpers have told.
As far as the common folk and lower level adventurers go the Zhentarim doesn't exist or is considered an 'urban legend' or 'conspiracy theory'.
The Zhentilar are known and feared however due to recent problems in the Zhentarim the Zhent army have lost almost all of thier holdings in the NW areas of Faerun.
I don't thing they are overused if they are used right and not as bumbling bad guys as many have used them.
|
| Lashan |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 15:50:14
Yes, the old way or even the correct way. That's the way I play it. It never seems that anyone else seems to actually play that way. I always hapen to see a group of low level zhentarium thugs as guards. There aren't any low level zhentarium thugs! Or foot soliders! Or, there aren't suppose to be any.
I think in my last game, the players only met 2 or 3 Zhentarium agents in the whole campaign. They didn't even know they were zhentarium until after they were dead, either. It was quite interesting, though, that one agent played the party off against another agent, in an attempt to further his own plans! It was quite a suprise to the party that all seemingly random bandit groups, Rot Grubs, evil wizards, and monsters were part of a larger plot by some Black Network. It kinda freaked them out a bit, too. |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 18:05:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's the way they're supposed to be used, I always thought...
I believe the Zhentilar are no longer refered to as such and the Zhentarim now run the military from within. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 16:52:57
That's the way they're supposed to be used, I always thought... |
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