| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brother Ezra |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 15:34:16
Most of my current group of stalwart adventurers has survived to reach second level. We'll be rolling HP and determining skills/feats/etc. at our next game this weekend.
I'm trying to keep this as realistic as possible, and wanted to incorporate the idea of training into the campaign. So, I'd like to find out if anyone has used the concept of training in their campaigns? How do you explain the acquisition of new feats/skills/granted powers? Do they just appear? What about improving existing skills? Do you just get better at it with continued practice?
Example: Our rogue wants to add 4 ranks to his open locks skill. He has one rank already, but to date has not used the skill once since the campaign began. How can I realistically justify his improvement with the skill if there was no application of it during the course of the previous level?
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| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Brother Ezra |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 17:05:47
Thanks for all the great suggestions everyone. I think I've distilled the ideas listed here and come up with a useable system that my players have agreed to. If you already have ranks in a skill, or are taking ranks in a skill that can be used untrained, then no training is required to learn the skill. Any new skills that cannot be used untrained must require training. Any feat that has the descriptor "Improved" or "Greater" can be taken without training, but otherwise must be trained. Training can be provided by another PC with the necessary skills or feats, but there is at least an investment of time, if not money.
Thanks to all for your input. |
| kahonen |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 13:00:22
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
I can really clearly envision a rogue constantly trying to get better times on picking these open or even getting tricky and using a blindfold while sitting around the campfire.
Sarta
I've used similar ideas before and they work very well.
The mage (2nd Edition) in my current party has a Pick-Lock ability due to spending time with the party's thief while he was practising (not particularly good but usable).
It stands to reason that during such a period, the mage is going to ask questions which the thief is going to answer. The mage's intelligence and dexterity is such that he could pick up and use the information.
There has always been a lot of cross-pollenation of training between party members. They spar together, for example, and this has led to (limited) new weapon proficiencies. On a long sea voyage they decided to work for their passage instead of travelling as passengers. The result was that by the time they arrived at the destination they had gained associated skills which were given as bonusses without waiting for a level increase. That is, after all, the way it works in real life.
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| Darth KTrava |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 02:01:21
We just basically assume that 'training' is provided by another PC. Or in a town we're in for a few days.. We don't use the "gotta get a trainer" variant rule. The one character showing another has usually been for those PCs that were entering the cleric class, it seemed. My cleric sorta 'trained' the sorceress/now cleric to heal wounds. And in another non-FR game, a friend's cleric showed my ranger/cleric the new 'skillz' of the cleric class (turning undead, casting cure spells).
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 08:53:33
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
Lysander, one thing you may suggest to the player is rather than purchasing training in the future, they may want to make an investment in an assortment of locks that they can fiddle with during downtime. I can really clearly envision a rogue constantly trying to get better times on picking these open or even getting tricky and using a blindfold while sitting around the campfire.
Sarta
I could buy that... In "The City Beyond the Gate", a module that ran in Dragon magazine 100, there was a display on the history of locks, showing the locks and some of their inner workings. I don't remember the exact methodolgy, but a thief (this was 1st edition, as I recall) could increase his Open Locks chance if he studied the display long enough. |
| Sarta |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 07:49:03
Lysander, one thing you may suggest to the player is rather than purchasing training in the future, they may want to make an investment in an assortment of locks that they can fiddle with during downtime. I can really clearly envision a rogue constantly trying to get better times on picking these open or even getting tricky and using a blindfold while sitting around the campfire.
Sarta |
| Karesch |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 22:37:38
Personally, I think things like HP, saving throws, attack bonus' can all be gained without trouble when they're due, I mean, half-way through the nine hells, you hit level 34.. well, chances are, you've gotten used to daily injury and pain, so that in turn would be equivalent to extra HP, chances are, you've gotten used to jumping out of the way of bursts of flame, taking hit that test your fortitude, etc, so saving throws would improve. And well... in the nine hells, your fighting all the time, so that attack bonus probably did increase, because you got better at fighting some. So all those things would progress naturally as they were earned.
Skills that you already possess. Provided your only adding 1-2 skill points, and you've used the skill since your last level, say at least a half dozen times, your practice will have increased your ability. Furthermore enhanced because you've been trying to get better because you couldn't do it a couple times when you tried. So before bed you practice an hour, things like that.
Taking on new skills. Have you tried it a couple times during your journeys as an untrained skill check? Eg. the party has to travel 10 miles to the next town, nobody's ever rode a horse before, but the king offers them his mounts because he needs the message moved FAST. The party makes an untrained skill check to see if they can ride. They succeed, well, when they level up, they may want to take a couple points in ride, because they fell off a couple times during the journey and took some bruises. That could be done mid campaign, because they've tried it a time or two in the past, have an idea of the basics and as such, probably improved from those first few minutes. For skills that don't allow you to make an unskilled check, then they must seek out training for it before learning it. perhaps a party member can help, perhaps they need to find someone else in a town or such to teach them the basics.
Again, similarly with feats. Is it feasible they could practice at night and thus learn the skill, such as cleave? How hard is it to teach yourself how to swing a weapon harder and keep control of it? It requires a bit of practice, but it's not too hard. Same as, if there's someone in the party that has the feat another person wants, they could teach them. Fee's to be decided amongst PC's.
The easiest way to figure a logical way as to whether they can learn the skill or feat mid campaign, ask yourself, how smart is that person (check int and wis perhaps?) does it make sense they could learn it with some practice if it's something they know they want to do? This way hasn't failed me yet. |
| Lysander |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 16:37:13
An answer, and a question with a long set up.....
Bro. Ezra, if the character hasn't used the skill at all in the previous adventure, I'd require a tutor be found (payment to be made via cash, in-house service, indenture, quest, or whatever plot hook you devise). When I DM, I generally allow used skills to improve via practice, and any skills unused or new to have some kind of tutor. That said, you can set the restrictions on who is a tutor as loose or tight as you wish (one campaign had my ranger teaching one of the party's other fighter's horseback archery - for a price of couse!  )
A debate I've had is the mid-combat (more accurately, the mid-adventure) XP gain that would "allow" levelling-up. This scenario for example: The party is traveling to The Town That Always Exists Near Unexplored Dungeon (  ) and is attacked by bandits pretending to be the King's Patrol. Well, after the party cleans 'em out, they're still a few days travel from The Town. One of the player's pipes up after you've announced the XP (this could be a "side trek" thought it's really "encounter on the way to start the module/adventure") that he now is 4 XP over the amount needed to go up a level. (Under 2E...) things line brand-new skills, fighting styles, et cetera "obviously" can't be learned on the plains on the way to The Town, but increased hit points, attack modifiers, saving throws...
Now that the situation is set - would you allow the items that need no instruction (like HP) to go up as soon as the XP requirement is met, or wait until they get to town before allowing any on-sheet modification?
Lysander |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 12:01:46
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Aside from the occasional bad investment. I mean a gorgon ranch? However you can use the milk to eat through steel doors and trapped chests, so it wasn't all bad.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 11:57:32
quote:
Originally posted by Dunbarth
Also, what do you do for that 8 hour watch of yours? Fiddle with a lock? Sharpen your sword? Stitch your socks? Make some arrows?
Exactly. There's not much you can do in regards to class abilities for barbarians, clerics and druids, but fighters, monks, paladins, and rangers would likely go through training katas every so often, preferably once a day. Sorcerers would meditate, wizards make notations in a book while ignoring the world, and bards would write down and play songs.
As for skills, I'd say that spending a single skill point in any one skill wouldn't require much roleplay -- you're just advancing in a more or less steady manner. More than one point would require something that suggested practice, assuming you wanted to require this sort of thing. This can come in many ways. For instance, all that climbing walls your rogue did to disarm those ranged traps obviously would contribute to climb ranks, if the player wanted to spend them.
With feats, it would depend on the type. If it's a unique sort of power (Improved Counterspell, say, or Snatch Arrows), then obviously some training is required. Some can't possibly be taken on campaign, such as item creation feats, though metamagics might. However, if it's something like Power Attack or Combat Expertise, then I don't see any problem giving it to them so long as they've been roleplaying all right in general. |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 08:02:38
Oh, I'm lucky there. My characters love having the best in life. They always buy the best posessions, the richest foods, finest lodgings, and shiniest shiny things.
They do most of the work of deflating their purses for me. Especially when it only takes a little description and coaxing to play up to their grandiose natures and goad them into ostentatious displays of wealth and power. I mean, what is a fighter without a castle? (oh and a nicely bought title of nobility), a wizard without a tower, and a score of apprentices and rare tomes?
Yeah, I am so pleased that they are willing to spend piles of hard won gold on non stat boosting items I let it slowly pay off over time.
Aside from the occasional bad investment. I mean a gorgon ranch? However you can use the milk to eat through steel doors and trapped chests, so it wasn't all bad. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 07:42:26
Yes... requiring the occasional "cash" committment prevents you from having the need to even tone it down in the first place. Definitely ask for cash or serious magic items if you have them train with a master in order to level up... you'd be surprised at how many magic items a PC is willing to part with in order to get that first Archmage level!  
Other cash committments:
1. Information: not every type of insider info can be bought for one gold piece from a clueless commoner... you have 10th level PCs? Have a rogue come to them, saying stuff like "Meet me at three bells beside the King's statue. Bring one thousand gold pieces... five if you want not only the girl, but also catch the uncle with his pants down with a certain countess..."
2. Good old rogues: unless you set-up your inn chamber with traps of your own, chances are that most thugs can break through or unlock a simple inn door (or window, a-la-Elminster, during the good old "making of a mage"). Inns are not vaults. Rob 'em blind once in a while, but not in every city they visit... or they'll grow paranoid on you. Now, you'll have the occasional PC lunatic who's going to want to level Waterdeep if you steal his precious armor: put him in jail for disturbance of the peace. If they have the good sense to report the theft to the local watch, reward them once in a while with beaming guard carrying that +3 sword back to them!
3. Donations: they say they have a Patron deity hey? well, ask them to prove it! Send fawning priests of their faiths pleading them to grace the local temple with their generosity, fanboys of various kinds that have heard of them from the local excited high priest and have sent them to the PC to ask his/her monetary help for whatever cause, etc. They are heroes right? Well, if they don't drop a few coins to support that belief they'll drop into infamy instead, "the cruel fakes," "the interlopers," "the tyrants," etc.
4. Property: what satisfies a PC without providing a stat boost? a house, a farm, a inn, or a gleaming waterfront condo on the northwest cliffs of Waterdeep. And you know the kicker? it requires to be maintained by servants, repaired, "protected" by certain guilds, etc. Great for regular PC out-of-pocket expenses! 
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| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 07:14:41
Don't I know it! I had to adjust down npc equipment by level in my game since I have mostly characters as enemies for my pcs.
I got the mechanics of it, I was just thinking that most multi classing and acquisition of prcs would begin at the higher levels. THis might encourage players to live up to their character types more though. Liek getting their asassin level as soon as able, instead of putting it off till they get their ten rogue levels. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 05:38:13
My training requirements are only for a class the PC does NOT have. Once he has a level in the said class, no more training required to level up.
And no, it hasn't affected my game in the least: PCs always have lots of cash on hand because every NPC they defeat always have +1 or +2 magical items that the adventurers do not need, so they sell those for cash usually (they are ECL 11 now).
If you allocate proper NPC treasure and items, your PCs end up with a LOT of cashable crap... |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 04:43:38
By charging what seems like quite a bit for picking up levels do you add any more treasure into the game? OR just consider increased diversity a thing one buys? Also, have you noticed this curtailing any "min maxing" or are people just keeping adding on classes willy nilly?
Well, I use a requirement of time for training. However the payment I usually demand is opening themselves up to all my nice shiny plothooks.
They just join adventurer guilds, schools, and academies and go their for training. THe charge is usually nominal, like several hundred gp per year, and the occasional lecture and submitting themselves to a plothook or two.
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| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 03:54:12
My training rule: no training required if you level in a class you already have. However, if you want to gain levels in a new PrC or multiclass into a Core class that you do not have, you need to find a master with at least two levels in the PrC or Core class you need.
Training costs are 100gp/level/week, and training time is one week/total character level.
For example, a Rogue 5 / Wizard 5 wants to take her 11th level into Arcane Trickster or Bard. She needs to find a level 2 Arcane Trickster or level 2 Bard. If she finds one of these, then she needs to spend 11 weeks with that person, and pay that person 1,100gp per week (for a total of 12,100gp).
PDK |
| Lashan |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 18:28:40
I prefer to have the players train in-between adventures. If they have lots of cash, I try to get them to go to a trainer and pay cash for it. If the party is in the middle of an adventure, and they get enough exp to go up a lvl, I am usually torn. My recent party has been in dire straights in many of the latest modules. I've let them get the hit points and Base Attack Bonus, but not the feats and/or skills that would come with that level. I require them to train for that one. |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 18:11:30
I would suggest allowing the party a rest stop for their levelling up.
This allows them to
A) Meet someone who could train them for the skill/feat (i.e. a town thief, who is an agent of the same guild as the party Rogue, who is very good at picking locks)
B) Aquire materials for training. Though making, for e.g., the thief buy locks to practice is costly - and it would be unfair to punish him for levelling up. So you'd have to assume all the materials were either very cheap or borrowed.
C) Think and rest - maybe the thief just spends a while thinking about how he could have opened that chest in the dungeon, if only he had been confident enough to do so. So he thinks about how it could be done - and makes himself ready for it in future.
But these would all not be terribly interesting to rp (except for the trainer idea, maybe), so as Lady K suggest - assume it was done in between sessions might be best.
Hope that helps/ |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 15:56:47
Since I have yet to actually DM a campaign, I really cannot relay any of my experiences on this issue. However, I've thought about it to some degree.
I think I would have some of the party members who are involved in acquiring unique and specialised skills and feats undergo some training down-time either during gameplay (a less favorable option I would think) or between game sessions.
For particularly complex or highly intricate skills and feats though, I would certainly think that a degree of continued practice would be required, again either during game time or between sessions. This would be an very important consideration for many of the skills of the Rogue character class for example. Only with extensive training and use can the required skill level be gained.
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| Dunbarth |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 15:55:22
I am both player and DM at times. Three of us play on a regular basis and we each run our own campaign. This allows us to play our favorite characters and doesn't make one person responsible for coming up with gaming material year after year.
I don't see anything wrong with allowing your PC's to train a skill up without seeking out a trainer. We decided we would "assume" characters were practicing these skills in their spare time. It's near impossible to sit down at a 5 hour game session and have your PC's tell you everything their characters do in a 12 hour, 2 day, 1 week time period. In 5 hours of game play we usually go through several days of Game time. There's a lot of travel time in there. Also, what do you do for that 8 hour watch of yours? Fiddle with a lock? Sharpen your sword? Stitch your socks? Make some arrows?
In the end it all comes down to what you, the DM feel his campaign should be like. If you want to use a couple of hours of game time for training and skill increases, you do that. For my gaming group, that is not an option. Our time is limited.
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