| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Aug 2022 : 08:37:42
Being trying to come up with a thesis explaining roughly how the different types of super beings behave and trying to explain away all the special cases that appear to break the rules of divinity.
For example how does a god appear in person on Faerun, why doesnt it happen all the time, why isnt the Material Plane a ravaged wasteland caused by divine battles, how do alias' work, how do you become a god, what is a divine realm, why do some gods have it and some dont.
I tried to merge the rules from Faiths and Avatars etc with that of the Immortals Boxed Set for OD&D, as there are some important points in the original work that i think were overlooked.
Below is what i have so far, feel free to criticise, suggest, speculate. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Demzer |
Posted - 07 Sep 2022 : 15:29:24
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
[quote] Now we have gods fall relatively frequently that is true. Most of these are through lack of worship or godlings (demigods and young true gods) failing to survive very long because they over reach themselves or do not have a secure base of worshippers or are being manipulated by Talos etc. But actual god on god slaying I'm not recalling many before the Dawn Cataclysm.
Lol, the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheon called and want to have words with you about not recognising the horros perpetrated by the orcish pantheon during the Orcgate Wars. Apparently they didn't like "lack of worship" as a metaphor for being killed by orcish blades and fury, go figure. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Sep 2022 : 11:08:27
You could muse on the written lore that makes it clear there is not any connection. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Sep 2022 : 09:48:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of gods fell before the Time of Troubles.
Timing does not suggest a link, given that we've been told the circumstances of how Tyche split, and it was not related to the Dawn Cataclysm.
Even if we didn't have the info on her split, just because two things happen at the same time doesn't mean there is any relation between them at all. My stomach was bothering me Saturday morning, and the Artemis 1 mission failed to launch because of a hydrogen leak. I'm fairly certain that these two things are entirely unrelated.
Very true except that your analogy is comparing apples and pears. Yes your stomach pain has no connection to the failed Artemis launch, unless you experience it with every launch.
This however is more like every Artemis launch failing so is there a hidden agenda from some group being pursued to cause those failures.
Now we have gods fall relatively frequently that is true. Most of these are through lack of worship or godlings (demigods and young true gods) failing to survive very long because they over reach themselves or do not have a secure base of worshippers or are being manipulated by Talos etc. But actual god on god slaying I'm not recalling many before the Dawn Cataclysm.
Then within the Dawn Cataclysm we have at least two, likely more if you count the seven lost gods and the events around tempus, targus, garagos, and talos, bhaelros, jonah etc.
Each slaying could be viewed as an isolated incident but given the rarity up to that point it seems less likely.
Just something to muse upon. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 07 Sep 2022 : 06:53:35
I still use this (courtesy of afroakuma from the Giant in the Playground forums):
• The Dawn Cataclysm was a period of Faerűnian history that took place over a few hundred years, beginning around, loosely, -350 DR.
• The root causes of the Dawn Cataclysm are numerous, but the most predominant are three:
• The ascension of the Dark Three through the machinations of the Netherese deity Jergal.
• The fall of Netheril through the folly of Karsus.
• The emergence of Lathander, called Morninglord, a power of renewal.
• Whether Lathander emerged from the death of Amaunator, the Netherese sun god, or was present before in a different pantheon (the Talfiric, perhaps) and coexisted, is ultimately difficult to say. One prominent theory held that Lathander, Amaunator, and Jergal represented the dawn, the midday, and the dusk, and that only two of the three could hold sway at any one time. If this is true, then the emergence of Lathander at the same time that Amaunator fell and Jergal voluntarily diminished himself may have disrupted the cycle and the balance of three.
• The Dark Three were active during the time of Netheril, and likely began to forge their cults and churches in the strife and death of the fall. This surge in prominence of three new faces of evil was a cause for alarm among the powers of Good, as the Dark Three lacked for subtlety, hungering to set upon the world as its new rulers.
• Lathander viewed the fractious pantheons of Faerűn as stagnant and sedentary, unable to respond to the evils of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. He urged his followers to spread forth from their lands, making contact with the followers of deities from other pantheons. Lathander attempted to convince these gods that they needed to change, or they would fall under others who were more adaptable. He exhorted them to follow his example - and to follow him, as the leader of a united pantheon of goodly and rational deities against the upjumped mortals now threatening to bring the world to heel.
• Some deities were eager to join him, concerned about the strength of evil. Others were resistant to uniting with other pantheons, concerned that their portfolios would be at risk. Some were actively encouraged by the concept of predating on deities from other pantheons in order to seize more power for themselves.
• These divisions happened not between individual pantheons, but within them. The god Auppenser was supreme among the Jhaamdathan pantheon, and would not hear of kneeling to the Morninglord, concerned as he was about protecting the psions of his land. Factionalism among the gods caused division in the Jhaamdathan pantheon, resulting in a coup in Jhaamdath that installed a vicious warmonger in place of the old rulers.
• With the gods of war eagerly unleashed upon one another, the gods of storm and fury came forth to bring havoc. Lathander's crusade had transgressed the traditional boundaries of the pantheons, and the fragile peace shattered as gods of all stripes struggled to cement their roles in the free-for-all.
• When the dust cleared, it became evident that whatever Lathander's actual goals, he had missed the forest for the trees - the most ancient evil of Toril, Shar, had undermined his efforts from the very beginning, using the kinds of foe he would immediately perceive as the greatest threat (new gods, young and active, like himself) as a diversion while she helped strengthen other forces of darkness. A dreadful ocean goddess, Umberlee, was summoned by elves into the Sea of Fallen Stars, where she seized and drowned the last defender of Jhaamdath, the reason goddess Murdane, capturing the inland sea within her portfolio and establishing herself as the predominant deity of all the waters. The foul demiurge Moander deceived and corrupted Tyche, goddess of fate, forcing Shar's rival Selűne to salvage a lesser goddess of good fortune from the putrefying essence of her friend while unleashing a cruel goddess of misfortune upon the Realms. The battles of gods with similar portfolios had greatly empowered forces such as destruction and war, seating Tempus and Talos as greater gods with wider sway over the Realms.
• The ultimate outcome of the Dawn Cataclysm was a united Faerűnian pantheon, with many gods much greater in scope than they had been previously. Lathander obviously did not get to renew the world entire without the stain of darkness, nor did he become leader of the united pantheon or otherwise achieve his aims.
To be honest, I find trying to explain divinity (and the editions) to be torturous at best. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Sep 2022 : 02:34:48
A lot of gods fell before the Time of Troubles.
Timing does not suggest a link, given that we've been told the circumstances of how Tyche split, and it was not related to the Dawn Cataclysm.
Even if we didn't have the info on her split, just because two things happen at the same time doesn't mean there is any relation between them at all. My stomach was bothering me Saturday morning, and the Artemis 1 mission failed to launch because of a hydrogen leak. I'm fairly certain that these two things are entirely unrelated. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Sep 2022 : 22:21:45
Well, as some designers like to remind us, nothing happens in isolation.
The event itself could be the connection due to its rarity.
Prior to the ToT, god on god slaying is an almost unheard of event, but during the Dawn Cataclysm we have at least two murders or attempted murders (I cant recall if there are more). The rarity of the event suggests a link.
For example, we know the obarskyrs line has experienced a lot of unexpected deaths, so many in fact that you would suspect a deliberate hand steering those events. Nothing in the lore links them all but I'm pretty sure I've read on here that there is a connection.
Now, if the Balance is actually about staving off MAD, then what better way to kick start a cataclysm that results in the consolidation of multiple pantheons into a single pantheon, than by breaking the Balance and deliberately trying to kill other gods. Tyche was an easy one because she was so fond of walking the realms in Prime Avatar form and so made herself vulnerable. Others would have to be tricked.
Cue a divine escalation of conflict that was only averted by some expert diplomacy and the formation of a single continental pantheon.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Sep 2022 : 22:01:41
Tyche splitting happened during the Dawn Cataclysm, but there's nothing that indicates it had anything at all to do with the DC. The information we have makes it appear to be an entirely separate event that just happened to coincide with other events. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Sep 2022 : 16:41:56
If the Balance is all about preventing a divine war from the super alliances of gods, then that means the Dawn Cataclysm would definitely break The Balance.
So Tyche splitting, the death of Murdane, all those other divine slayings were all connected by groups of gods beginning a huge war that was somehow averted. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Sep 2022 : 16:35:15
Latest novel I read had a scene where lolth appeared to drizzt to show her favour.
Using the framework outlined here that would most likely class as Lolth taking prime avatar form and appearing on the material plane for less than a minute.
Easily possible, slightly dangerous, but doesnt really cause any problems.
It did lead me to think about The Balance. I'm not sure it's ever really been defined what this Balance is that the gods must follow, but to my mind the balance is about ensuring you (as a god) do not directly step on the proverbial toes of another god.
So lolth appearing to drizzt is fine. Drizzt is one of her charges or at the least he is unclaimed by anyone else. She doesnt kill anyone from another god, she doesnt reduce their worship. In fact no other god probably even knew she did it (they are not omniscient). She was in and out in less than a minute. The Balance was preserved.
When Cyric killed Adon, high priest of Mystra, that was definitely affecting another god. Mystra then wanted revenge and started working directly against him. So all the other gods started working against them both. The Balance was not preserved and had to be restored.
Why, because when gods fight against each other it results in thermo nuclear war for all. Planescape on Hallowed Ground states this as a reason why gods dont interfere.
So gods as it turns out, gods do turn up in person on the material plane, and they do a bit of meddling, but they have to be very careful not to get caught and the best way to do that is to make sure they dont affect another gods territory. |
| BrennonGoldeye |
Posted - 24 Aug 2022 : 17:37:47
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the idea of elder gods from another dimension showing up, I'd try to stay away from them being from the first world and be more broad. Maybe links from the outer planes and the far realm started to open. Prior to that, maybe the main conflict was between order and chaos.... the elemental chaos versus the orderly elemental planes. Suddenly the concept of good and evil in a tangible form began to affect things. Maybe realms like the realm of faerie, spirit realm, and shadow already existed and suddenly the gods themselves were getting affected by the coming of evil. One such being becomes the elder elemental eye/Tharizdun. Another might have been a faerie that becomes the queen of air and darkness. Then other gods turn evil as well (Lolth, Shar, etc....). Some may redeem themselves, etc... To be clear, I don't see this coming of evil as moustache twirling evil so much as insane evil.... a horrible, mind twisting disease that begins to affect the gods and have them pursue evil ends that seem unfathomable to others.
This sounds alot like Pathfinder mythos. I like it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Aug 2022 : 22:56:23
On the idea of elder gods from another dimension showing up, I'd try to stay away from them being from the first world and be more broad. Maybe links from the outer planes and the far realm started to open. Prior to that, maybe the main conflict was between order and chaos.... the elemental chaos versus the orderly elemental planes. Suddenly the concept of good and evil in a tangible form began to affect things. Maybe realms like the realm of faerie, spirit realm, and shadow already existed and suddenly the gods themselves were getting affected by the coming of evil. One such being becomes the elder elemental eye/Tharizdun. Another might have been a faerie that becomes the queen of air and darkness. Then other gods turn evil as well (Lolth, Shar, etc....). Some may redeem themselves, etc... To be clear, I don't see this coming of evil as moustache twirling evil so much as insane evil.... a horrible, mind twisting disease that begins to affect the gods and have them pursue evil ends that seem unfathomable to others. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Aug 2022 : 21:54:59
Okay, so here's what i have come up with to try and fix the nonsense that 4e introduced with the Dawn War and giants and dragon gods existing before they were ever on Toril. I've edited the second post to include everything so far.
The answer is Archetypes. So i figure that the First World was the original universe and it had its gods. In the Immortals boxed set the original world could be ended by the Vortex so why not have this First World unmade and then remade as the Multiverse.
The events that dont fit in Toril's timeline actually occurred in the First World.
Some of those gods survived from the First World but they became more than gods, they became Archetypes.
So Bahamut and Tiamat were from the First World and are Archetypes.
Annam was from the First World, so was Moradin, Gruumsh, etc. These are the Elder Gods that are summoned from another dimension in the Blue Age.
Archetypes are kind of the next step beyond gods.
Anyways, let me know what you think, i think i've got all the bases covered now, just need to work through weird special cases to try and see if everything fits into the framework.
For example Primus i figure was a primordial who became a god and then an archetype. He may even have been one of the Elder Gods. HIs modrons are shards that are also Aspects so whenever Primus is slain another takes his place. He doesnt need worship from anyone because he is sustained by the plane itself. He can take physical form quite happily because he cannot be destroyed unless every modron in existence is destroyed. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Aug 2022 : 16:35:08
Yeah, it seems more likely that the daggers were used to steal power from primordials, I'm not sure the magic that powers it really cares about the source, it just drains the "soul" / experience / power of a being. Haask may even have been a regular but powerful mortal.
I've been looking into the dawn war etc primarily on the wiki (because I'm on holiday and away from my sources) and it uses some interesting words to describe it - Elder Gods from another dimension being the ones I find most curious.
I've got a kernel of ideas running at the moment but I'm hoping to reconcile the inconsistencies with dragons and giants seemingly involved in the dawn war before they ever existed and gods existing before the planet toril was even created.
Hopefully that will inform the primordial category and the final categorisation which I'm calling archetypes which has been occasionally in various editions and has the least information and definition. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Aug 2022 : 23:15:51
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Hmm, the statement of ascended batrachi and primordial doesnt seem to make sense.
I had not considered being able to steal a primordials power, given that it is something inherent to an individual at birth/creation.
I suppose anything is possible with magic and just like golems are the spirit or energy of the elemental planes trapped inside a material shell, why couldnt you steal that inner plane energy from a being like a primordial (if you were powerful enough).
I dont think it needs another category, if you steal the power of a primordial you become a primordial (or so it seems when we look at bazim gorag). I wonder if you can infuse yourself with the power of the elemental planes just like others have done with the outer planes.
Lots more research to do.
After mentioning that concept, it occurred to me that I should also mention the Dark Three and their use of the Jathiman dagger to slay Borem of the Boiling Mud and other beings which we NOW know as primordials (whereas at the time of the printing of the Jathiman dagger material in 3e... and maybe it was earlier too... the idea of primordials didn't exist). So, the dark three were specifically hunting it seems a lot of primordials to steal their power. They then became gods via taking Jergal's power.
Gonna throw something really odd out there for a moment.... could we find out that Jergal TRADED the power of several dead primordials for his godly mantle with the dark three? I mean, he didn't die out from lack of worshippers.... Could it be that the Jathiman dagger doesn't steal GOD power, but rather PRIMORDIAL power (I've never looked into what all it killed... but it apparently also killed a Haask a batrachi-doppelganger)? Could Haask have also been an ascended batrachi? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 15 Aug 2022 : 09:44:52
Hmm, the statement of ascended batrachi and primordial doesnt seem to make sense.
I had not considered being able to steal a primordials power, given that it is something inherent to an individual at birth/creation.
I suppose anything is possible with magic and just like golems are the spirit or energy of the elemental planes trapped inside a material shell, why couldnt you steal that inner plane energy from a being like a primordial (if you were powerful enough).
I dont think it needs another category, if you steal the power of a primordial you become a primordial (or so it seems when we look at bazim gorag). I wonder if you can infuse yourself with the power of the elemental planes just like others have done with the outer planes.
Lots more research to do. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Aug 2022 : 19:56:09
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Well first I'd see if what we have fits the bill.
Original manifestations as aspects works. They are infused with some divine power and able to act independently of the original. They then gain enough power through worship to be classed as gods in their own right, but because they cannot leave the material plane they are essentially demigods or permanent prime avatars.
The incarnations of the mulhorandi gods could be classed as aspects as well, but not of the original gods on another planet, but of the prime avatars now on toril. The method of aspectisation has been covered by George with his Kaledshran, they are literally infused with the blood of the prime avatar and that makes them an aspect.
It kind of makes sense to me, without the need for additional terms.
I'm not intending the framework to be a single categorisation. These divine beings last for millennia have a variety of different origins and I'm sure that primordials have become gods, gods lost their divinity and gone back to primordials or mortals, we have a few archetypes that become gods or gods that become archetypes, and so each can do a variety of different things.
The point is to define what each type can do and get the language right to clear up the mess in FRs divinity play.
We also have mortals that become primordials. The slaad-like, two headed, batrachi lord known as Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer is noted to be an ascended batrachi who is a primordial per 4e. I wouldn't be surprised if this weren't something where there was some kind of ritual in which he stole the power of a primordial and infused it in himself. I guess when it comes to primordials there might be a category that we might call the "ascended primordial". Maybe all the slaad lords (which are themselves something different) might be this kind of being (not a requirement, just throwing that out there, just because the slaad lords are specifically not demon/devil princes, nor gods).
SIDEBAR: on THAT note, we have it that the batrachi "released entrapped primordials"... and I think it is hinted somewhere that it was Zhoukoudien that did this releasing. What if this leader of the batrachi was trying to do what Bazim-Gorag did (i.e. bind the power of a captured primordial into himself), and something went wrong with that ritual as a result and it released OTHER primordials. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 14 Aug 2022 : 03:25:44
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Not looked at planescape, do you have any suggestions on which sources might deal with rules for gods.
On Hallowed Ground focuses on divine matters as such.
But most books at least somewhat touch the subject. I mean, the setting box and Planewalkers Handbook had to give the rules on how the priests and their spells work on the Great Ring and beyond, planes splatbooks have to include details on powers who happen to be the local movers and shakers, and for adventures they shape the landscape both literally and metaphorically.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Aug 2022 : 07:00:44
Well first I'd see if what we have fits the bill.
Original manifestations as aspects works. They are infused with some divine power and able to act independently of the original. They then gain enough power through worship to be classed as gods in their own right, but because they cannot leave the material plane they are essentially demigods or permanent prime avatars.
The incarnations of the mulhorandi gods could be classed as aspects as well, but not of the original gods on another planet, but of the prime avatars now on toril. The method of aspectisation has been covered by George with his Kaledshran, they are literally infused with the blood of the prime avatar and that makes them an aspect.
It kind of makes sense to me, without the need for additional terms.
I'm not intending the framework to be a single categorisation. These divine beings last for millennia have a variety of different origins and I'm sure that primordials have become gods, gods lost their divinity and gone back to primordials or mortals, we have a few archetypes that become gods or gods that become archetypes, and so each can do a variety of different things.
The point is to define what each type can do and get the language right to clear up the mess in FRs divinity play. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 22:57:31
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Well i'll be sticking more to rules binding a deity, but i felt trying to fit the Dawn War into realms history by making it predate the realms entirely was the only way to utilise it.
As for the vestiges, i see no reason why the activities of gods cannot be as varied and unpredictable as mortals. People die all the times and weird and sometimes unique things happen in the aftermath. If a god dies and its avatar is on the material plane then you might get a vestige. If a Divine Realm is suddenly scattered into the Astral Plane because the Outer Plane it was linked to suddenly collapse then who knows what might happen. Any divine battleground could result in any number of unique events and aftermaths.
I'm beginning to think that gods can create aspects (independent, free willed beings that embody the being whose power they are infused with) its just that they dont do it very often because Avatars are a much better use of power (they are part of the god and completely controlled by it).
Imagine for instance an avatar is created. Its really powerful, really hard to kill (Lathander's avatar was barely scratched by Sammaster), and when they are unsummoned i imagine the energy used to make them is returned to the god.
An aspect is not as powerful, they are completely independent, and while they might embody what a deity represents in the beginning (otherwise why would the god infuse that being with its power) they can be corrupted. I'm thinking that the Chosen is just another word for an aspect, and Sammaster is a perfect example of one going bad. Even worse, when an aspect is destroyed that energy is lost (or worse stolen).
Now the Untheric gods could have been Prime Avatars but they dont seem powerful enough for that (an awful lot of them died relatively easy in some cases). Their deaths also dont appear to have affected the deity elsewhere in the multiverse. The untheric gods were also trapped in a material form which doesnt seem like it would work if they were still linked to the original (as an avatar would be) because that link implies a connection which shouldnt be possible with the barrier. So an aspect works quite well for the untheric and mulhorandi pantheon.
So gods and archetypes (which may just be another name for primordials on the outerplanes) can create aspects. Gods can create avatars. Primordials create shards.
Agree here. In fact, I was trying to remember the term used in the old Deities and Demigods (it was aspects now that I hear you say it, but I was thinking it was also manifestations). I like the idea like you say of them not creating these "aspects" from pure magic under their control like you say, but rather them infusing some other living being with this power. So, the "manifestations" in Mulhorand and Unther may have been some kind of powerful beings that got infused with a measure of the original god's power and it somewhat "overwrote" their personalities. So, something MORE than a chosen as it also instills something of a personality of the god.
I would note here as well that the two countries seem to have gone down different paths from there.
The Mulhorandi established Godkings which appear to be mortals either "bred" from these "manifestations"/"aspects"... or families that were somehow infused with a godly blessing. I choose to believe "bred" because it fits with the godkings being aasimar. I think the best and most fun representation of this is if the godkings are LIKE the lesser avatars we see during the time of troubles, as in the manifestations "share" the body of the godking, giving them guidance kind of like Raistlin with the voice in his head. I like George's idea that they use some kind of ritual that instills some blood of the god in them in order to activate individuals in each generation as an "incarnation" of these manifestations/aspects. I also like the idea that the manifestations also used their "font of time" to from the future as part of this ritual to actually inhabit the future godking (i.e. the ritual is on Tuesday, but on Thursday the manifestation goes back to Tuesday and takes over the godking and awakens his powers in him). This makes it so the godkings are "their own man", but it also creates a network by which the manifestations can watch over their whole empire via multiple incarnations within each royal family that acts as their eyes and ears.
Ironically, what I just described for the godkings/incarnations sounds a LOT like a binder who allows a vestige to share his body. One things I've proposed is that the Theurgist Adepts were actually anima mages (i.e. the wizard/binders from 3e Tome of Magic) and that they were involved with the Theurgian Society discussed in the Tome of Magic. Perhaps one reason that the Theurgist Adepts and the godkings had a serious problem with one another is that people were having problems understanding the difference between them, and they began to question whether Theurgist Adepts shouldn't have just as much right to rule as the Godkings.
The Untheric gods seem to have ruled in a different way, ruling directly over their people, and they possibly had children while on Toril. Over the years, there's been several discussions on the idea that the Untheric gods seem to have a lot of ties to dragons. It might be interesting if THESE manifestations actually WERE dragons loyal to the Untheric gods rather than normal mortal followers... but they would shapechange into human(Mulan) form. Might we find out that Assuran of the Three Thunders was a dragon born of the manifestations in Unther for instance? This adds a whole lot of interest into things like Tchazzar, the millenium dragon, etc... as well for possibly actually being of the bloodline of "dragons in the form of gods". It also brings the interest of the Cult of the Dragon into this region to a whole new degree that outsiders just don't understand. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 21:47:16
Well i'll be sticking more to rules binding a deity, but i felt trying to fit the Dawn War into realms history by making it predate the realms entirely was the only way to utilise it.
As for the vestiges, i see no reason why the activities of gods cannot be as varied and unpredictable as mortals. People die all the times and weird and sometimes unique things happen in the aftermath. If a god dies and its avatar is on the material plane then you might get a vestige. If a Divine Realm is suddenly scattered into the Astral Plane because the Outer Plane it was linked to suddenly collapse then who knows what might happen. Any divine battleground could result in any number of unique events and aftermaths.
I'm beginning to think that gods can create aspects (independent, free willed beings that embody the being whose power they are infused with) its just that they dont do it very often because Avatars are a much better use of power (they are part of the god and completely controlled by it).
Imagine for instance an avatar is created. Its really powerful, really hard to kill (Lathander's avatar was barely scratched by Sammaster), and when they are unsummoned i imagine the energy used to make them is returned to the god.
An aspect is not as powerful, they are completely independent, and while they might embody what a deity represents in the beginning (otherwise why would the god infuse that being with its power) they can be corrupted. I'm thinking that the Chosen is just another word for an aspect, and Sammaster is a perfect example of one going bad. Even worse, when an aspect is destroyed that energy is lost (or worse stolen).
Now the Untheric gods could have been Prime Avatars but they dont seem powerful enough for that (an awful lot of them died relatively easy in some cases). Their deaths also dont appear to have affected the deity elsewhere in the multiverse. The untheric gods were also trapped in a material form which doesnt seem like it would work if they were still linked to the original (as an avatar would be) because that link implies a connection which shouldnt be possible with the barrier. So an aspect works quite well for the untheric and mulhorandi pantheon.
So gods and archetypes (which may just be another name for primordials on the outerplanes) can create aspects. Gods can create avatars. Primordials create shards. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 20:01:07
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Bear with me while i try and mash up planar lore from all the editions.
So we know in the beginning (presumably of the planes), there was a big fight between the gods (i believe they were known as the Estellar) and the Primordials.
Now my beef with this is that in the beginning there can be no mortals, so the gods were not the gods. It makes sense therefore that these "gods" were actually just Primordials on the Outer Planes, although that would surely make them just "Ordials" (Prime Ordials being on the Prime Material Plane)
Now the big question is why were they fighting. My guess is that the estellar wanted to become gods, but in order to do that you need worship, and the only way to get worship is from free willed creatures. Everything created on the Outer Planes lacks free will. So to make free willed beings you have to create them on the Prime Material Plane. So the war between Estellar and Primordials was so that the Estellar could ascend.
The problem is that none of this history fits with FR history or any other world history. So using a 5e idea of the First World, the Prime Material Plane was where all this happened, and that was before the Multiverse (when it was the universe), unfortunately this First World was destroyed by the Vortex of Entropy (see the Immortals Boxed Set), and so the Multiverse was born from the shattered remnants of the First World, with each Crystal Sphere being a sort of copy that tries to follow the same plan as the Universe.
Hmmm, this actually sounds like we're kind of heading in similar directions... where I was discussing below the idea that the sun is portals to the plane of fire, the stars are portal to the plane of radiance, and there may have been portals to the plane of Vacuum/Entropy. It may have been that originally the positive and negative energy planes were just "the plane of energy" with "ins and outs"... and when they "split" into their two sides they may have destroyed "the first world".... by splitting it into the different crystal spheres. This may have created the first deaths, as all prior beings may have been immortal/undying.
It may also be that this original "plane of energy" was the extremely volatile and explosive phlogiston. Perhaps the formation of light and darkness... radiance and vacuum... caused the explosive creation another quasi-elemental plane, in the form of the plane of minerals. This creation of the plane of minerals caused the formation of the crystal sphere around a section previously had been phlogiston, during which time all materials in the contained area was transformed from Phlogiston into the building blocks of air, earth, fire, and water. This may be why phlogiston cannot be brought into a crystal sphere (it instantly changes into the other four elements).
This then later formed the basis of all the other "inner planes" which do not touch phlogiston. So, it may be that the quasi-elemental planes came before the actual elemental planes. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 19:59:16
Well i really dislike the idea of gods having a physical form by default, but thats just my personal dislike (i dislike lots of things about the gods but here i am trying to come up with a universal framework to explain everything divine).
OD&D Immortals describes these powers as beings of pure energy.
PLanescape on Hallowed Ground says quote:
When a power needs to manifest himself to his worshipers. he lakes on the form of an avatar - a physical projection of his will .
Which implies they do not otherwise have a physical form
All the other god books dont actually define what a god truly is, just that they form avatars.
That being said, we know they can create physical forms and that is why i used the Prime Avatar option in the Immortals boxed set. New gods probably do this more often. Other times some deities do it just for fun - like Tyche. But it is dangerous for themselves and for reality around them because they become an easier to kill target (just like Tyche)
On Hallowed Ground talks about a divine agreement not to take physical form on the material plane, otherwise they would destroy each other and everything around them. Which is my reasoning as well so i'm pleased about that. I think the Tablets of Fate originally fulfil this divine compact, explaining every deity's place and role and acting as an agreement not to overstep those bounds, to remain distant and neutral so as to save the realms and each other from total annihilation. How ironic then that it should become the focus of competition among the gods and ultimately lead to the destruction of many. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 19:30:54
Still going through, but another idea popped in my head, and thought I might mention it
The "Dawn War" between Primordials (generally elementally inclined beings) and Estelar (gods/beings with ties to the outer planes... specifically ties to Radiance... Estelar = Stellar Beings = Beings with ties to Stars) .... what if that war was literally over control of a creation of the Primordials. Remember "the sun" in realmspace is NOT a star like in our world. It's a heavenly body which is liberally covered with portals to the elemental plane of fire. Meanwhile the stars are portals to the "plane of radiance".
So, what if the Primordials created the sun as a staging ground to invade this new "place"/"crystal sphere" (which the concept of crystal spheres may go away soon, we'll see). This created a place that warmed the region and allowed life to "change" in some form (i.e. their may have been beings in the place that didn't require light and heat, and maybe even were harmed by such). These beings began to "worship" the "life giving sun" and so the gods of light (able to access this "place" via the stars/portals to radiance) suddenly decided that they should gain control of the sun in order to acquire that worship energy for the sun. This kicks off the war between primordials and estelar/gods
Going along with this idea that in the beginning the portals to radiance and the elemental plane had ties to the gods and primordials, it may be that there were (and maybe still are) portal to the plane of vacuum as well. The actual splitting of "Selune" and "Shar" (or whatever they were known by back then) may have created these portals as some of the first divine beings with ties to "otherwhere". Given that the planes of radiance and vacuum are "borders" to the positive and negative planes, this may have been what started bringing in "energy"/"life" into the worlds.... in whatever form it first existed.
Going along with this, perhaps the original "being" that comprised Shar and Selune had ties to both radiance and vacuum, and thereby ties to both the positive and negative planes... and it was this that eventually... like magnets pushing apart.... eventually split this being. But while they existed, they PULLED energy into this microverse... and that energy is what comprises the weave. Just a thought since they're also equated with magic. As another addition to this "back then" the positive and negative material planes may not have been distince and separate entities either, and it may have been their separation that actually created "death". |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 18:42:57
Still going through what you wrote above, but that being said, worth it to mention the idea of manifestations amongst that demi-gods section as a form of a god that is separated from its core deity (similar to a simulacrum with more autonomy) and sent off to an area under an entity who controls access to that "region". We have more than just the Untheric pantheon as examples, because there was also Mielliki who was prime bound prior to the ToT, but she was also a multispheric deity.
Also, your idea of true gods as nothing but energy.... it may be that they simply exist in a plane of their own, and perhaps they gain access to the rest of the universe via their divine realm having the only connection to this plane of their own. They would then create "constructs" or avatars with which they protect their divine realm and/or interact with the prime, etc... Thus, destruction of their divine realm "severs" their ability to act as a god... and turns them into a "vestige".
It may be that their physical body is ejected from this special plane of their own when they die, and that body then "petrifies" into the astral body. In essence, kind of like Pandorym where it was separated its body from its mind.... what remains entrapped in the "special plane" for each god is nothing but its consciousness... which is why it acts as a vestige in some instances.
Just throwing out some ideas here. Tear it apart. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 15:00:12
Not looked at planescape, do you have any suggestions on which sources might deal with rules for gods.
I realise odnd was a different cosmology, but in a multiverse setting (which is where dnd is heading at the moment) the underlying rules for the gods should be the same (which I guess is what planescape was all about). More importantly the rules for the immortals boxed set are better defined than adnd and indeed 3dnd, and as far as I can tell are not incompatible so it makes sense to use the ideas to better define and flesh out FR divinity.
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| TBeholder |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 14:29:31
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Being trying to come up with a thesis explaining roughly how the different types of super beings behave and trying to explain away all the special cases that appear to break the rules of divinity.
For example how does a god appear in person on Faerun, why doesnt it happen all the time, why isnt the Material Plane a ravaged wasteland caused by divine battles, how do alias' work, how do you become a god, what is a divine realm, why do some gods have it and some dont.
Did you read Planescape materials on that?
quote:
I tried to merge the rules from Faiths and Avatars etc with that of the Immortals Boxed Set for OD&D, as there are some important points in the original work that i think were overlooked.
OD&D (Mystara) Immortals and derived materials did not use the same cosmology IIRC. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 11:19:46
I'm trying to think of the special cases of god behaviour to see if they fit until the above framework.
So Time of Troubles works because all gods are forced into Prime Avatar form which makes them vulnerable to being slain.
Tyche splitting into two works if she also willingly assumed prime avatar form (I believe it is actually stated she liked to wander the realms in physical form), so she is the vulnerable to the predations of other gods and super beings.
Cyric works as well. The opening parts of the cyrinishad debacle shows Mystra and Cyric in prime avatar form which one can assume all recently ascended gods do because they yearn for the material pleasures they knew in life. It makes Cyric more mentally unstable than he was in life.
Ultimately Mystra is persuaded to maintain the Balance which I'm interpreting as keeping out of mortal affairs, not interfering directly with her own or other clergy. This stops the mutual assured destruction scenario from occurring (although all the gods occasionally break the rules and that's fine as long as they dont get caught and dont interfere with another gods territory).
Because cyric is in prime avatar form it explains how an artefact is able to affect what is otherwise a greater god. The artefact is designed to work on material beings and he stupidly assumed the form of a material being.
Gilgeam and the untheric deities are always a special case. It would seem that they all assumed prime avatar form or perhaps separated a portion of their energy and created a new being which was in prime avatar form. These prime avatars travel across the stars and can of course be killed.
The imaskari barrier I always thought of as daft, and assume it was instead a barrier designed to stop plane shifting and teleportation and unauthorised gate travel throughout the old empires (a much more effective protection, especially when you consider the imaskari used such methods to steal whole populations from other places).
If it was such a block then it would inadvertently (or intentionally) block access to the gods and the material plane in the old empires area.
Souls wouldnt be able to travel to a divine realm (except that the imaskari created a huge soul trap to funnel the souls to the afterlife - see that 3e magic of incarnum book). Worship would no longer empower the gods, communication could not reach the gods, and the gods could not send avatars etc.
So Gilgeam and his pantheon become stuck in prime avatar form for thousands of years, essentially making them demigods. That makes them a little insane, and vulnerable to permanent death. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 12 Aug 2022 : 02:45:36
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
So yeah, Jubilex kills a primordial, steals some of his powers, and his worshippers. If / when he gets enough worship then he can ascend to become a true god (if he figures out how), otherwise he can bask in the respect and awe of his tiny meat snacks.
Glorious. Yeah, that divine energy is going to be up for grabs once Juiblex does something stupid. I love that. Any cult leader that wants to ascend just needs the initial power and the will of the people. (See the end of Dragon-Ball's final "Lend me your power!" and the problems even infinitely strong characters have in convincing people to believe in them. The people don't trust Superman, but they trust the celebrity wrestler!) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Aug 2022 : 07:08:32
Bear with me while i try and mash up planar lore from all the editions.
So we know in the beginning (presumably of the planes), there was a big fight between the gods (i believe they were known as the Estellar) and the Primordials.
Now my beef with this is that in the beginning there can be no mortals, so the gods were not the gods. It makes sense therefore that these "gods" were actually just Primordials on the Outer Planes, although that would surely make them just "Ordials" (Prime Ordials being on the Prime Material Plane)
Now the big question is why were they fighting. My guess is that the estellar wanted to become gods, but in order to do that you need worship, and the only way to get worship is from free willed creatures. Everything created on the Outer Planes lacks free will. So to make free willed beings you have to create them on the Prime Material Plane. So the war between Estellar and Primordials was so that the Estellar could ascend.
The problem is that none of this history fits with FR history or any other world history. So using a 5e idea of the First World, the Prime Material Plane was where all this happened, and that was before the Multiverse (when it was the universe), unfortunately this First World was destroyed by the Vortex of Entropy (see the Immortals Boxed Set), and so the Multiverse was born from the shattered remnants of the First World, with each Crystal Sphere being a sort of copy that tries to follow the same plan as the Universe.
Now none of that really matters in terms of your question except to explain the gods and primordials. So if a mortal slays a demigod, in theory all they gain is experience, possibly enough to become a demigod themselves, but many editions had rules where you could acquire Feats and Powers from doing super special things like acquiring fire resistance after being breathed on by a dragon. One can only assume that fighting a demigod (or even primordial) leaves its mark and changes the winner, although i'm not suggesting a highlander style of absorbing power.
Would a primordial want to subvert the worship of a god, would a primordial want to become a god. My thought is no, because they likely already possess enough raw power to ascend, the history of primordials (at least in FR) suggests they are actively opposed to becoming gods. Doesnt mean they dont want to be worshipped just out of pure vanity, or perhaps so they can have a regular supply of meat snacks.
Jubilex as a specific example is one of the Outer Plane types of Primordial and they do seem to want to ascend (perhaps they are estellar that never managed to achieve it). But there is also another category i havent yet detailed - the Archetype - which is a being that embodies an Outer Plane (or an entire race). Primus, and Jubilex and Bahamut and Tiamat (and perhaps Annam) are also examples of Archetypes, able to created free willed aspects. Being an archetype seems to tie them to that particular Outer Plane, although they can leave it for a time if summoned.
I think the likes of Asmodeus and a few other estellar lost out on becoming true gods (probably as a result of their worshippers being poached by other estellar), and so went down another route of power - they became archetypes, choosing to bond themselves to a single Outer Plane.
Doesnt mean these individuals wouldnt want to become gods, but its just something to be aware that there is another category out there.
So yeah, Jubilex kills a primordial, steals some of his powers, and his worshippers. If / when he gets enough worship then he can ascend to become a true god (if he figures out how), otherwise he can bask in the respect and awe of his tiny meat snacks.
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| PattPlays |
Posted - 11 Aug 2022 : 03:18:09
Thought experiment using the proposed definitions.
When a Primordial with no significant religious following on material plane A begins a fight with an Avatar present on that plane, and wins, what sort of miracles would the Primordial be able to pull off having totally consumed what divinity was present in the Avatar it devours? Say.. Juiblex consuming That Which Lurks in the ruins of Underchasm beneath the broken Shaar? I'm totally into the idea of attempting to subvert that Demi-God religious following timer situation by a nearly identical power trying to steal a faith wholesale with shock and awe, and access to one of at least three lingering Avatars of Ghaunadaur left in dark chasms and demiplanes. |
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