| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 04 Apr 2022 : 09:45:14
I am currently attempting to plot out a version of WATERDEEP: DRAGON HEIST for my player characters as part of a 100+ Year campaign that starts in the Time of Troubles and each year moves a couple of decades through the Spellplague and other events. It wouldn't work normally if not for the fact the player characters are going to mostly be witnessing the canonization of all their previous Forgotten Realms games into one timeline and seeing their adventures from the outside. I think they'll enjoy that.
My notes so far are:
1. Dragon Heist is basically a poorly-written (sorry) heist adventure where there's a 500K pile of gold located somewhere in Waterdeep, probably Undermountain, where a gold dragon guards it as well as a legendary mythical staff.
2. Theoretically, the adventure is supposed to be like the Curse of Strahd in that it has multiple angles to play where one of four factions: Xanathar the Beholder, Manshoon, a Asmodeus-worshiping family of snooty nobles, and Jarlaxle are looking for it. You choose one of these guys to be the bad guy and eventually find the Macguffin that leads you to the hoard.
3. The adventure is SO MUCH MORE AWESOME if you have all four of these factions trying to get the Dragon Hoard. Presumably fighting each other every bit as much as the PCs and then you have a showdown at the end where all of them are going for it like The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
4 I always play Manshoon as basically fantasy Cobra Commander and the goal of acquiring the 500K is because it will help him CONQUER THE WORLD. I actually would play him, unlike what the book suggests, as perfectly willing to cut a deal with the players. He's Lawful Evil and a man who knows that you don't last long if you don't pay your employees.
5. Xanathar the Beholder I flat out just play as Jabba the Hutt with his pet fish as his version of the Kowakian Monkey Lizard. He's fat, disgusting, and has a pit trap with an enormous monster inside it. His goal for the money is to have more money.
6. The Cassalanters (Asmodeus cultists) are pretty much like the Briarwwoods from Vox Machina. Incredibly smug unlikable assholes who DO love each other. They are trying to get their kids they promised to Asmodeus out of their deal with him, though.
7. This is a small note but if the players thwart the Cassalanters, though, Asmodeus will claim them rather than their children (who will swear Batman-like vengeance on the PCs despite their young ages). Call me old fashioned but Hell gets enough freebies so that they can't claim innocents because their parents promised them in my games. Asmodeus just heavily IMPLIED it was their children he was claiming.
8. The players will probably actually side with Jarlaxle who is like Manshoon in that he will want to make a deal with the PCs and actually abide by it. Also, he plans to give the loot back to the City of Waterdeep anyway as an enormous bribe and good will gesture.
9. The Harpers and Waterdeep want to acquire the gold for themselves. They will also be very annoyed if the PCs help Jarlaxle (let alone Manshoon). However, they're also in dire needs of funds due to the Spellplague and the fact that rebuilding civilization costs money.
10. The PCs avoiding conflict with the Gold Dragon would be best and I would have him be actually in slumber most of this time. If the PCs resolve it peacefully, which they can, Waterdeep will gain a new Lord of Waterdeep (possibly Open Lord) that will guarantee its prosperity for years to come.
11. The PCs inherit an Inn during this adventure. I would, in fact, actually have it be a brothel in Skullport because I love Skullport and it has a door leading to ANOTHER brothel in Waterdeep directly a thousand feet above it. Maybe also make it a permanent Mordekain's Magnificent Mansion and other weird qualifiers that make it somewhere they'd want to base a headquarters.
12. A Beholder, Manshoon the Archwizard, and god knows what else would be suicidal for the PCs to oppose at the climax of the adventure. Except, of course, if they had Jarlaxle or Larael or a FRIGGING GOLD DRAGON to help out. My players prefer thinking and alliances to dice rolling, though.
(Which since already some people miss this--they actually prefer to do as little combat as possible versus roleplaying but it's D&D)
13. I am not usually a Dungeon Gamer but I suspect I shall make the Dragon's Vault into a full on Dungeon with traps, riddles, and other shit that the player characters will react like is the most ridiculous thing they've ever heard of. But someone, possibly Volo, will go into a long speech used to be very common about a 120 years ago during the First Age of Dungeon Architecture.
I'd be open for other suggestions. |
| 7 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 18:45:49
I removed Manshoon as well, I have never found a good reason to use Manshoon. I would likely use him very sparingly if I did sort of like El. I left the concept of there being two Zhent factions, I like to confuse and muddle things they way they would be in the real world. I left one group neutral to the party and the other hostile.
I have intentionally left myself ignorant of the corner of the Realms lore that features Drizzt so initially I did not even know Jarlaxle had any sort of ties to him. I have to say I have been enjoying having him in the quest. He really is a rogue's rogue, having tricks for every situation. He really reminds me of Ferris Bueller. I have played it as he doesn't have any leads on the gold but has been trying to leverage himself into "the game". He found his in via the PCs.
Now I know the submersible is a sticking point for people. But I'll be honest it isn't for me. Mechanical flying machines have existed in the Realms canonically, whether powered by magic and not. Underwater machines have existed as well, so I see no reason why over the last hundred years they could not have improved some. My rule is normally if it is powered by magic its reliability is "fairly good" 5-10% failure chance, if no magic is involved the reliability is horrible 25-50%. As far as the references to Sean Connery, meh, it gives me a way to hint to the players that all these different NPCs are actually the same NPC, they all are handsome, chisele jawed, they all dress well and are very charismatic and I get to put on my bad accent. So far none of my players seem to realize it.
My plan for when we finally get to the Vault is to likely have Halaster steal the gold and replace it with foil wrapped chocolate coins, with his winking face. This wasn't my idea, I saw on a reddit I think but I love it. He leaves one real gp per player, the dragon if the players assist it will reward them with gems. This will draw the players into Undermountain. Jarlaxel will likely get away with the staff just to give it to Waterdeep to broker for a better relation with the Lords Alliance even if it isn't one publicly flaunted. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 23:23:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I was going to run the adventure, I'd make four changes, right off the bat:
1) I'd swap out Jarlaxle and lose the Scarlet Marpenoth. I think they included him only to have drow -- specifically, a drow connected to Lord Ginsu -- involved, and even without the jokes and pop culture references, I find the idea of a submarine problematic.
2) I'd swap out Manshoon for either a more believable version of Manshoon, or better yet, I'd entirely replace him with a Zhent of my own design. I find it highly implausible that a wizard could be imprisoned by Halaster and then, without being able to replenish their spells and with a missing limb, manage to escape. And even if this could happen, hanging out within Halaster's reach is not an intelligent decision... And being a high-level mage with access to the spells and resources Manshoon has, and not opting to do something about the missing arm other than use a convenient mechanical prosthetic that happened to be laying around -- yeah, I don't buy that, either.
I think Manshoon's inclusion was another of WotC's ham-handed "hey, look at us using some random bit of prior lore!" things
3) Swap out the Cassalanters for the Eltorchuls. Thanks to Caladorn, the Cassalanter family is far more well-known to fans of the setting than the Eltorchuls, and I'm sure that's the main reason they were selected. And while it is certainly possible, I find it hard to believe that in a few generations, the family that produced Caladorn could produce someone that thinks selling their children's souls is a good idea. I'm also skeptical that a hundred simultaneous murders could be so readily covered up, as the book implied.
4) I never understood the thing of "if it's winter, it's this faction, but if it's summer, it's this one..." I'd be inclined to just pick whoever I liked better, ignore the seasonal thing, and mix and match stuff from all of them.
There's some good stuff in the adventure, but it has to be teased out and polished to work.
1a:] I think Jarlaxle and Manshoon's inclusion is the issue of just how much you want the player characters to feel like they are involved with the movers and shakers of the Realms. A random drow and Zhentarim wizard are certainly going to be more appropriate to deal with at their level but also are going to be far less interesting. Especially if the gamers are people who are big fans of the Realms.
Oddly, I probably will remove Jarlaxle because one of the player characters basically IS Jarlaxle (a drow swashbuckler and thieves guild founder--mind you, it consists of the other PCs)
1b:] The Not-Red October is something I don't have any issues with if I were to assume the submarine is actually of Halruaan construction. I am fully of the mind if they can create airships than they not only probably can create airships but also submarines. How Jarlaxle got one becomes a story but, unlike many other oddities in the Realms, I don't actually have a problem believing he could steal/acquire one.
2a:] My impression of Manshoon is that he's always been meant to be the Team Evil equiavlent of Elminster and is one of the most powerful wizards in the Realms, levels and executive meddling be damned. Which is to say that Halastar is one of the few wizards who could hold him prisoner but he would never be able to hold him LONG. Indeed, Manshoon is probably one of the few people with a decent shot of killing Halastar and might be a good choice for who killed Halastar off temporarily in 4th Edition.
(I don't necessarily think levels are the best thing to go by lore-wise since Ed Greenwood said Drizzt and Artemis are 2 of the top ten fighters in the Realms)
2b:] If we put the Dragon Hoard in Undermountain, that actually might be a good argument for including Halastar Blackcloak. You could also have the PCs use Diplomacy checks to possibly recruit him to grab Manshoon again.
A dangerous tactic but a rewarding one.
3:] It depends I suppose on how you want to play it. There's plenty of children of great heroes who end up being scumbags because they don't inherit any of their parents better qualities. Kylo Ren and Dag Zoreth for example. However, it's going to be a reference that will go over most PCs heads I think.
It might be interesting if the PCs thwart their ambitions with Asmodeus and a follow-up adventure happens where a "white sheep" remnant of the family begs them to help try to save the children from being claimed by the Nine Hells.
Mind you, I actually agree with the "100 murders of the poor and homeless" in Waterdeep being something they can't cover up. I'd either have it be something more overt like they have to at least burn down their mansion to cover it up ("We barely escaped with our lives! All our poor servants!") or they actually aren't NEARLY as smart as they think they are and Asmodeus fully is planning to let them twist in the wind for this.
After all, what does he care if they're hanged after they save their children?
4:] Yeah, I think the season thing is silly. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 22:54:49
If I was going to run the adventure, I'd make four changes, right off the bat:
1) I'd swap out Jarlaxle and lose the Scarlet Marpenoth. I think they included him only to have drow -- specifically, a drow connected to Lord Ginsu -- involved, and even without the jokes and pop culture references, I find the idea of a submarine problematic.
2) I'd swap out Manshoon for either a more believable version of Manshoon, or better yet, I'd entirely replace him with a Zhent of my own design. I find it highly implausible that a wizard could be imprisoned by Halaster and then, without being able to replenish their spells and with a missing limb, manage to escape. And even if this could happen, hanging out within Halaster's reach is not an intelligent decision... And being a high-level mage with access to the spells and resources Manshoon has, and not opting to do something about the missing arm other than use a convenient mechanical prosthetic that happened to be laying around -- yeah, I don't buy that, either.
I think Manshoon's inclusion was another of WotC's ham-handed "hey, look at us using some random bit of prior lore!" things
3) Swap out the Cassalanters for the Eltorchuls. Thanks to Caladorn, the Cassalanter family is far more well-known to fans of the setting than the Eltorchuls, and I'm sure that's the main reason they were selected. And while it is certainly possible, I find it hard to believe that in a few generations, the family that produced Caladorn could produce someone that thinks selling their children's souls is a good idea. I'm also skeptical that a hundred simultaneous murders could be so readily covered up, as the book implied.
4) I never understood the thing of "if it's winter, it's this faction, but if it's summer, it's this one..." I'd be inclined to just pick whoever I liked better, ignore the seasonal thing, and mix and match stuff from all of them.
There's some good stuff in the adventure, but it has to be teased out and polished to work. |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 18:34:55
Yeah I agree the Gold Dragon was something that needed to be adjusted. What I did, since I prefer to make things fit versus alter them completely, I decided to give the Dragon some more back story, motivation, etc. I also like to give characters moral grey zones. Here are the adjustments I made:
* The contract/bargain that was struck was for dragon eggs (protecting these seems more in line with a Gold Dragon, so similar idea as you had)
* The Gold Dragon thought the situation was temporary and he would be free by the time the eggs hatched
* The eggs are now close to hatching the Gold Dragon is desperate to get out of the contract and is looking for a loop hole, luckily the binding spell was poorly made up
** There was no time limit so the Gold Dragon is stuck here
** The spell did specify that it was binding while the Dragon still drew living breath
* There are actually two problems, the dragon is bound to the vault by spell and the dragon is also locked in
* The Gold Dragon is considering turning into a Dracolich with the help of the Cult of the Dragon, desperate times call for desperate measures, this will free him from the contract
* The Gold Dragon has a Kobold "dracolich" servant that he tried out the Cult of the Dragons concoction out on first
* The Kobold can enter and exit the vault because it is so small and acts as the dragon's eyes and ears in the city above and gives you something to have the players interact with and hint at
* The Kobold is also trying to tunnel into the vault using skeletal servants, but since it only knows these tight little tunnels it has no idea where the real entrance is
I know this all seems kind of absurd. But in my head it solves the problem. I have a NPC, the Kobold, for the Big Boss that is interacting with the players from the First Act on. It explains why the Gold Dragon might start off as hostile, protecting the eggs, and makes room for a lot of negotiation. Maybe the PCs promise to help the Gold Dragon get freed. Maybe they have to take care of the new hatchlings. I imagine the PCs working with the Dragon to fight the factions at the vault door.
Also a Kobold Dracolich is very amusing to me.
So I short I think you are right the Gold Dragon needed a lot of work in the adventure. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 06:00:05
Some more thoughts:
Why the Player Characters should not fight the Dragon
Basically, because it's substituting an excellent chance for roleplaying with naked violence against a creature that is set up to be perfectly reasonable to respond to. The player characters should be relying on their wits against the gold dragon here. They can convince him the gold is stolen (which it is), they are here to return it (which they might not be), or that his original deal is void. All this so they can have a potentially AWESOME ally if they play their cards right.
Adding Incentive
One way I'm thinking about spicing up the adventure is that I'm thinking of adding a clutch of dragon eggs to the dragon's horde that it's guarding and having the Gold Dragon looking after them.
A priest of Bahamut may actually be an interesting substitution because the eggs are in stasis or something and the Gold Dragon may not realize they will never hatch unless it is removed (because his employer was unwittingly playing him).
That gives the players a reason to want to get the treasure or at least this part of the treasure.
Good, The Bad, and the Ugly Ending
I was thinking of a way to make this the best possible climax to the campaign and incorporate all of the various factions into one scene:
* Manshoon
* Xananthar
* The Cassanthars (with their Devil son probably)
* Jarlaxle and his mercs
* Possibly Larael
Basically, all of them come to the treasure vault at the same time and have a showdown over who breaks first. However, this is something the PCs can't easily affect and I'm curious how to make them a "player" in this showdown.
Thoughts I've had:
* The dragonstaff being replaced with something more offensive like a Ring of Meteor Swarm or Ring of Wishes
* Recruiting the Gold Dragon's help if they're suitably charismatic
* Recruiting the Doom Raiders to provide backup
* Possibly running the game at much higher level
* Scattered macguffins throughout the PCs can use against one or more factions
But yes, I could easily see this ending in roleplaying rather than dice rolling as they can turn the tide to one faction or another and negotiation. Manshoon and the Cassanthars, Xanathar and Jarlaxle or Manshoon, Jarlaxle and Larael, the Doomraiders and Jarlaxle and Xanathar, and so on.
What do you think? |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 04 Apr 2022 : 13:46:00
Dragon Heist has a bunch of cool ideas in my opinion just very poorly put together and not polished at all. The base concept and the peripheral ideas are all very solid and amusing. I have been running it for a couple of years with my players on and off. They really have been enjoying it but it has required almost as much work as making up a whole adventure whole cloth. I will say it has been the first very successful continuous city adventure I have ever run. I'll give some of my general notes below, many of these might not be useful in a 100 year time span, we are running in a 1 year time span.
1) You need at least one good heist, if not a couple, watch some heist movies and break down the action beats, hell you can do the thing where as the PCs explain the plan to you, they are actually playing out the plan. You could even pre-roll a bunch this way they don't know what is happening till you tell them.
2) The gang war in the city really needs to be more prominent, not just between the Xanathar and the Zhents but through out, the PCs should end up being hunted in the streets because people are trying to eliminate competition of trying to get an edge on info.
3) The broken down Inn that the PCs are left if the first chapter is a very good springboard for the PCs to meet various factions, get various quests, if for some reason you think your PCs won't take the "reward" or don't want to run an Inn, try to find another way to incorporate the concept, indentured to an Inn owner for damages, patron noble who has a Inn as a hobby, etc, etc.
4) Tie all the main/side quests together, intertwine it all. (If people are interested I can elaborate on this with a very lengthy post as to how I did this.)
Good luck. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 04 Apr 2022 : 12:32:32
quote:
Dragon Heist is basically a poorly-written (sorry) heist adventure where there's a 500K pile of gold located somewhere in Waterdeep, probably Undermountain, where a gold dragon guards it as well as a legendary mythical staff.
Specifically it is the Dragonstaff. Depending on when you set this, Maaril might still have it, or you might want to note what happens/happened to Maaril for why his staff is no longer in his possession.
Although, the nature of the Dragonstaff and its interaction with the various protections against dragons in Waterdeep does make for an interesting note: depending on how long it has been since the Dragonstaff was out and about versus hidden away in the vault, there are a lot of shapechanged dragons, dragonborn, half-dragons, draconic bloodline sorcerers/wizards/whatever, and other generally dragon-y neighbours of Waterdeep who will be forced out.
Some may wish to get the staff for themselves, to ensure they can remain in Waterdeep. Some may wish to get the staff to control Waterdeep's dragons, and make it their private fiefdom. I could see some dragons with shapechanging abilities and few moral qualms using it to wall off Waterdeep to any dragon other than themselves.
I could see some dragons, or people more interested in long-term benefits, not even caring about the 500k pile of gold. For them, the real prize is the Dragonstaff and the influence it offers.
quote:
The Cassalanters (Asmodeus cultists) are pretty much like the Briarwwoods from Vox Machina. Incredibly smug unlikable assholes who DO love each other. They are trying to get their kids they promised to Asmodeus out of their deal with him, though.
Depending on when you set it, the fall of the Cassalanters from a few generations ago (when they had genuine good members of their family) to devil-worshippers could be played up.
quote:
The Harpers and Waterdeep want to acquire the gold for themselves. They will also be very annoyed if the PCs help Jarlaxle (let alone Manshoon). However, they're also in dire needs of funds due to the Spellplague and the fact that rebuilding civilization costs money.
The gold is basically Waterdeep's originally anyway, under the original text of the adventure. If you're changing that then go ahead, but if you aren't then the Harpers basically robbing Waterdeep becomes a possibly-interesting antagonist role that sets them against Waterdeep/the Lord's Alliance. |
|
|
