| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Hewy Wyvernspur |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 03:09:17
Hi folks! This post begins with a lengthy intro, so please feel free to skip below to the actual questions!
Long-winded Campaign Backstory:
I'm about to start a campaign (5e) set in the North in 1372 DR. The characters are all around level 11, and went through the Lost Mines of Phandelver and Curse of Strahd previous to this. Nearly all the players were completely new to D&D when we started LMoP, and once that was finished I threw them straight into Barovia, so I didn't give much thought to Realms lore at the time. In fact, I hadn't even settled on a date/year.
At the conclusion of CoS, in the epilogue I stated that Barovia had "returned" to the centre of Neverwinter Wood (as that's where they'd entered the mists), asked a few questions about what their characters did after the campaign, and thought no more of it. However, as the months (and the pandemic) dragged on, the players began clamouring for a sequel campaign, as some of them just hit level 11 as CoS finished, and they wanted to experience using their characters in the wider world rather than just in the closed and isolated reality of Barovia. Some mentioned that while they loved the Ravenloft campaign, they felt their characters' backstories were largely superfluous given that they were totally disconnected from their homeworld for the whole thing.
As a DM, obviously I was thrilled, and I got to work. I announced that the sequel campaign would be beginning 12 years after the events of CoS, and they got busy thinking up cool stuff their PCs had been doing in the meantime; mammoth email conversations grew out of these ideas (and I probably gave away too many perks and magical items based on them)! For my part, I decided to mash Dungeon of the Mad Mage with my old City of Splendors and Ruins of Undermountain boxed sets from 2e. It was then that I decided to set the beginning of this new campaign in 1372 DR (CoS having happened in 1360, two years after the Time of Troubles). I tried to get with the whole 1490s era, but in the end decided to just go back to the lore that I had grown up with and was most comfortable using.
My initial concepts were (and remain): to run a Waterdeep campaign that features Undermountain; to feature the Adventurers' Quarter as detailed in the City of Splendors boxed set; to use a PC that was corrupted and turned into a vampire by Strahd as a villain, now a cleric of Shar and Vanrak Moonstar's right-hand woman; to tie one of my dwarf PCs to the original Lost Level and the Melairkyn; to involve noble houses and their scheming shenanigans; and to bring about the emergence of the Raven Queen as a FR deity in an event that will replace the Spellplague (as I both love the Raven Queen and detest the Spellplague).
Furthermore, through working on the intervening 12 years with the players individually, one player whose PC accepted more than one of the Dark Vestiges' dark gifts in the Amber Temple in Barovia is now evil and chasing godhood. I had him battle Wulgreth at Karse, and lose, but he has since discovered that the lich's phylactery is the Karsestone, the divine remnant of Karsus' power. I really want to work this in to my general ideas, particularly about Shar and the Raven Queen.
The Actual Questions:
What I'm vaguely thinking at this stage is that Vanrak wants to use the Karsestone in some way to extend the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow/whatever that bleeds into Vanrakdoom (again, using a mash-up of the 5e version and the 3.5e version) up to Waterdeep so that he can use its power to overthrow the Lords and claim the city for himself and Shar. Somehow, the Raven Queen wants to interfere in this process, and instead syphon off both some of Shar's power and the divine spark of Karsus to fuel her own rise to divinity in Toril.
Any great ideas on how to do this? At this stage, the would-be god PC only knows that the Karsestone is in (or under) Waterdeep somewhere - and that's all I know too! Here are some specific questions, the answers to which might help me figure out more of the potential plot. Any answers you might provide can be canonical, but don't have to be, obviously I'll be going off-piste myself:-
- Where (in or under Waterdeep) is the Karsestone now, and who (if anyone) has possession of it? (I'm aware of where it is canonically, specifically looking for non-canonical ideas here.)
- What can the Karsestone do?
- What might Vanrak's plot, or the ritual he intends to use the Karsestone for, look like?
- Assuming Vanrak were able to go through with his plan, how could the Raven Queen interrupt/interfere with it for her own purposes (i.e. to be reborn in Toril as a goddess)?
Secondary Questions:
Given all of the above, here are some other things I'm wondering about at this stage:-
- I'm interested in using Hlethvagi and the House of Pain (temple to Loviatar in Undermountain). I'd like to explore the relationship between the churches of Shar and Loviatar. I'm imagining that the faithful of Loviatar have up until now been acting as junior partners in an alliance with Vanrak and the church of Shar, but given Bane's recent rebirth Hlethvagi has begun to separate the Loviatans from the domineering Sharrans. I'm still unsure how this could play out in game (i.e. from the players' perspective)
- I've yet to come up with many subplots involving Waterdhavian nobility. Anyone got any sweet ideas about their favourite noble families? These subplots could have nothing whatsoever to do with the whole Shar thing.
- In Dragon Heist one of the villains is a clone of Manshoon living in the Kolat Towers. I'm thinking of stealing this idea and having Manshoon be a non-essential plotline that the players can pick up they choose. Again, this is nothing more than the spark of an idea.
- The Dungeon of the Mad Mage features the Twisted Caverns level, home to an aboleth that wants to take over Undermountain, then Waterdeep itself. Another cool idea I'd like to involve, if the players want to chase it. How does an aboleth take over Waterdeep from down in the dungeon? I've never really used aboleths before (although I did start a Night Below campaign once, didn't get out of book one!).
If you've made it this far, thanks for taking the time to read this! I look forward to anything anyone has to say, either in direct response to any of the questions I've posed, or about anything at all that I've written here.
Edit: Oh, any advice or ideas about mashing DotMM with 2e/3.5 Undermountain material would also be appreciated.
Thanks in advance, sages! |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 29 Aug 2021 : 23:18:16
quote:
Originally posted by Hewy Wyvernspur
Well met Kelcimer!
Thanks for the extensive and thoughtful response. You've given me plenty to think about and work with there. I particularly love the generally low-powered tone of the potential conflicts you discuss. They're the kind of things that magic and weapons can't solve; they require diplomacy, politics, and social manoeuvring, and there aren't necessarily any objectively "right" ways for things to work out.
You are very welcome! I am glad you appreciate it!
quote:
Originally posted by Hewy Wyvernspur
It seems the Waterdhavian nobles would simply be able to waltz in and plant a flag, so to speak.
This is true.
quote:
Originally posted by Hewy Wyvernspur
A smaller scale option that is perhaps playing out among 5-10 noble families could be the discovery of new mineral deposits in the Sword Mountains.
I looked at the wiki on the Sword Mountains and they are supposed to have been home to warring orc tribes for the past 300 years.
How do the orcs feel about the mining operations? Remember, the orcs are not a unified people. Some orc tribes might view the incoming Waterdeep noble families as allies against other orc tribes.
Some Waterdeep noble families might strike an alliance with a tribe of orcs, giving them food, weapons, and armor if they attack a rival houses mining operation.
And say that favorite son of a noble gets killed in that circumstance.
How far does the law of Waterdeep extend? Are the Sword Mountains beyond the law of Waterdeep?
If the law doesn't extend to the Sword Mountains, then noble families could wage literal war against one another. After the fact and back in Waterdeep, who is to say what exactly happened out there? |
| Hewy Wyvernspur |
Posted - 29 Aug 2021 : 17:05:00
Well met Kelcimer!
Thanks for the extensive and thoughtful response. You've given me plenty to think about and work with there. I particularly love the generally low-powered tone of the potential conflicts you discuss. They're the kind of things that magic and weapons can't solve; they require diplomacy, politics, and social manoeuvring, and there aren't necessarily any objectively "right" ways for things to work out.
I'm not sold on the warfare aspect of securing land for agriculture. My main source of hesitancy is my general picture of "my" Waterdeep; to me, Waterdeep isn't the kind of polity that would use armed force to simply impose its rule on the hinterland. Further to that, I'm not sure who they would have to fight with over the land. It seems the Waterdhavian nobles would simply be able to waltz in and plant a flag, so to speak. But I could certainly see them jockeying for position, both politically and with their troops, to gain control of as much land as possible.
A smaller scale option that is perhaps playing out among 5-10 noble families could be the discovery of new mineral deposits in the Sword Mountains. Certain houses may be rushing to stake claims on areas to mine. This could erupt into low-intensity conflict in the mountains, if not within Waterdeep itself. There are some families that are experienced with mining who are obvious candidates, but no doubt some other families with either great aspirations or waning fortunes (and also little to no experience of the industry) may also be tempted into trying their hand at breaking into mining.
I'm going to check out the thread you mentioned and give it a good hard think! Thanks again for the ideas :) |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 03:57:26
Hello Hewy Wyvernspur!
It sounds like you are off to a great start!
I can't speak to most of your questions, but the one that caught my eye under secondary questions is this:
quote:
Originally posted by Hewy Wyvernspur
- I've yet to come up with many subplots involving Waterdhavian nobility. Anyone got any sweet ideas about their favourite noble families? These subplots could have nothing whatsoever to do with the whole Shar thing.
Nobles have a lot of power. They have a lot of resources and a lot of military might. One of the things I like to consider is what the powerful are doing. This provides a ready explanation of why they are not involved in something they otherwise could be involved in. Like the plots the players are involved in.
One of the oddities of Waterdeep is that it really doesn't have the farmland to support it's population. (See the thread "Economic Models of the Realms?" for some animated discussion on this topic. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24049&whichpage=1 )
The obvious thing to do would be for Waterdeep's nobles to use their respective men-at-arms to secure the hinterland for it's agricultural needs.
On the other thread I said, "Looking at the map and considering the amount of agriculture that would be needed to sustain the population Waterdeep is supposed to have, it would make sense to me that Waterdeep to have anchored it's territory to the Delimbiyr River to the South, the Sword Mountains to the North, the High Forest in the East. The tributary from The Lost Peaks that feeds into the Dessarin would be the best line to anchor the northern border. They would want Triboar to be a stopgaps at the weakest part of the northern border"
That is obviously a lot more territory than what Waterdeep presently has and it has to start somewhere. Perhaps securing all land West of the Dessarin and east of the Krypt Garden Forest, and anchored all of that to the north at Triboar, would be a good start.
What should concern the nobles is who controls any new land brought into Waterdeep's territory. Properly speaking, the control of enough agricultural land to sustain it's population is an existential issue. All the nobles should be for it. But who among the nobility will get more land and thus have a stronger position down the road is something they should disagree upon. I would assume that every noble who contributes troops to securing the territory would get some share of the pie. It is up to you to decide how that goes.
So the nobles could be engaged with whatever warfare is necessary to secure the agricultural lands necessary to feed the people of Waterdeep. They could be facing various difficulties. The nobles do not even have to be competent at trying to secure those lands. That alone could magnify their difficulties in conducting the campaign.
All of this could be running in the background while the players are concerned with their plots.
Perhaps several nobles houses are supposed to be bringing their forces to bear in one place, but one of the nobles chooses to take his time getting there. Because of their tardiness things go badly for those that did show up. Suppose the favorite son of a noble died as a result and the resurrection failed. That could be enough for one noble house to have an active axe to grind against another. Remember, the feud doesn't have to have any magic or high-mindedness about it. It could just be about mid-wits with power having a grudge against other mid-wits with power.
I dunno if any of this sounds interesting to you as a DM, but there's my suggestion. |
| Hewy Wyvernspur |
Posted - 18 Aug 2021 : 15:25:46
quote:
quote:
Hi Eric, thanks for your reply! I've got your Vanrakdoom, it's going to be a major source for the mash-up with the 5e version.
As for Vampires of Waterdeep, I don't have it but do remember it from years ago, I think I ran the first part back in the day. I vaguely recall a running battle with werewolves that went from a tavern into the streets, then the sewers...? I can't remember much else about it. What's in there that prompts you to suggest it?
A few things.
You mentioned using a former PC vampire as a villain. You could certainly replace either Dhusarra or Artor with your PC.
You mentioned you wanted subplots involving Waterdhavian nobility. There's backstory on the conflict between House Gost and House Gundwynd in the story.
You mentioned wanting connections down to Undermountain from the city. There's a clandestine smuggler's route in the adventures as well.
--Eric
Sounds like there's a heap in there I could draw on, thanks for the tip! It was also pretty close to that year, 1372 DR, wasn't it? |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 18 Aug 2021 : 14:46:08
quote:
Originally posted by Hewy Wyvernspur
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
More in a bit, but have you looked at Vampires of Waterdeep in Dungeon #126-128? Three part adventure path.
Also: http://www.tsrarchive.com/3f/DnDVANRAKDOOM.pdf
Hi Eric, thanks for your reply! I've got your Vanrakdoom, it's going to be a major source for the mash-up with the 5e version.
As for Vampires of Waterdeep, I don't have it but do remember it from years ago, I think I ran the first part back in the day. I vaguely recall a running battle with werewolves that went from a tavern into the streets, then the sewers...? I can't remember much else about it. What's in there that prompts you to suggest it?
A few things.
You mentioned using a former PC vampire as a villain. You could certainly replace either Dhusarra or Artor with your PC.
You mentioned you wanted subplots involving Waterdhavian nobility. There's backstory on the conflict between House Gost and House Gundwynd in the story.
You mentioned wanting connections down to Undermountain from the city. There's a clandestine smuggler's route in the adventures as well.
--Eric |
| Hewy Wyvernspur |
Posted - 18 Aug 2021 : 14:33:00
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
More in a bit, but have you looked at Vampires of Waterdeep in Dungeon #126-128? Three part adventure path.
Also: http://www.tsrarchive.com/3f/DnDVANRAKDOOM.pdf
Hi Eric, thanks for your reply! I've got your Vanrakdoom, it's going to be a major source for the mash-up with the 5e version.
As for Vampires of Waterdeep, I don't have it but do remember it from years ago, I think I ran the first part back in the day. I vaguely recall a running battle with werewolves that went from a tavern into the streets, then the sewers...? I can't remember much else about it. What's in there that prompts you to suggest it? |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 16:26:53
More in a bit, but have you looked at Vampires of Waterdeep in Dungeon #126-128? Three part adventure path.
Also: http://www.tsrarchive.com/3f/DnDVANRAKDOOM.pdf
|
| Hewy Wyvernspur |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 05:32:22
quote:
Ah. In that case, I'd have it in Halaster's possession, in Undermountain. Shar had quite the interest in him for a while, and I think that's the kind of thing Halaster would be interested in -- or interested in watching people try to get to it.
That makes perfect sense, I don't know why I didn't think of that! I might have to brew up a new sub-level to hold it... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 05:26:45
quote:
Originally posted by Hewy Wyvernspur
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless I missed something, the Karsestone was grabbed by Shar, at the end of the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, and hasn't been seen since.
Oh yep, sorry, I should have made clear I wasn't looking for a canonical answer to that one, as I'm aware I'm deviating from that already. I'll edit the OP now.
Ah. In that case, I'd have it in Halaster's possession, in Undermountain. Shar had quite the interest in him for a while, and I think that's the kind of thing Halaster would be interested in -- or interested in watching people try to get to it. |
| Hewy Wyvernspur |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 04:36:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless I missed something, the Karsestone was grabbed by Shar, at the end of the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, and hasn't been seen since.
Oh yep, sorry, I should have made clear I wasn't looking for a canonical answer to that one, as I'm aware I'm deviating from that already. I'll edit the OP now. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 04:22:43
Unless I missed something, the Karsestone was grabbed by Shar, at the end of the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, and hasn't been seen since. |
|
|
