| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| redking |
Posted - 19 Jul 2021 : 04:26:00
Dungeon Magazine #194 has an article by Ed titled Thormil's Secret. For those without access to the magazine, Thormil is a breeder of high quality cattle in Cormyr. Thormil has a mind controlled deepspawn producing clones of high quality animals, which Thormil sells to restaurant kitchens.
Its not clear on how Thormil is feeding the deepspawn, but it is possible that the deepspawn has been given a Ring of Sustenance to allow for all its feeding requirements.
Deepspawn held in captivity is something that has been mentioned in many FR products. How widespread do you think this practice might be? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| redking |
Posted - 19 May 2023 : 07:00:54
I have my own version of what I consider "potential canon". That is, things that are plausible within the setting, that COULD happen based on what we know of the setting and its denizens. That is all that is important to me. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 May 2023 : 12:09:29
@redking
Fair enough. More Realmslore is more Realmslore and that's always a good thing. And darkspawn provide some interesting opportunities.
I just shake my head a little at the common habit of people worrying too much about ensuring "their" Realms are absolutely 100% compatible with all Realmslore which has been published and even with Realmslore which hasn't yet been published (or which might indeed never be published). Wizbro has already demonstrated too many times that they reserve the right to replace or retcon or repurpose components of the setting at a whim, that nothing is "reserved" exclusively for people to develop on their own. I much prefer the Gygaxian D&D philosophy, take it and make it into whatever adaptation of the game and the setting best fits your gaming. If it diverges from canon (now or later) then it's easy enough to reformat things in "your" private version of the rules and the world anyhow. |
| redking |
Posted - 18 May 2023 : 09:05:02
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by redking
Is the work in this link homebrew or official lore?
https://www.worldanvil.com/w/not-forgotten-realms-palant/a/the-spawnkeeper-hanged-landmark
I don't see any TSR/Wizbro titles, logos, or branding. I don't see any credit given to them.
It seems pretty obvious that it's fanfic or fanon. Not an official publication, not canon.
But canon or not ... if you like it then use it, if you don't like it then ignore it. What's the point of meticulously and slavishly adhering strictly to canon, of letting somebody else sell the stories that you'll play out on your gaming table?
I realise the site is unofficial, but the lore could have been based on canon, or on something that Ed Greenwood said. Canon or not, its an interesting bit of lore that contributes to the deepspawn tales. If it was based on official canon, then I could follow up with the canon source for more information. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 May 2023 : 13:50:42
quote:
Originally posted by redking
Is the work in this link homebrew or official lore?
https://www.worldanvil.com/w/not-forgotten-realms-palant/a/the-spawnkeeper-hanged-landmark
I don't see any TSR/Wizbro titles, logos, or branding. I don't see any credit given to them.
It seems pretty obvious that it's fanfic or fanon. Not an official publication, not canon.
But canon or not ... if you like it then use it, if you don't like it then ignore it. What's the point of meticulously and slavishly adhering strictly to canon, of letting somebody else sell the stories that you'll play out on your gaming table? |
| redking |
Posted - 17 May 2023 : 09:59:00
Is the work in this link homebrew or official lore?
https://www.worldanvil.com/w/not-forgotten-realms-palant/a/the-spawnkeeper-hanged-landmark |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Aug 2021 : 23:19:54
Wow, I had not thought about the aspect of the spawn being "virgins" and "sin free" when I first brought up the idea of deepspawn being used for cults. They also will not have ever eaten necessarily (so never been involved with the killing of either plant or animal). It's still pretty sick of an idea, but if they have souls.... I see it happening. |
| redking |
Posted - 05 Aug 2021 : 16:27:11
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Or this cult could just as easily believe that the spawned souls have been specially "chosen" or "blessed" or "purified". Sacrificing only those who are "worthy" within their own ranks to this exalted status. Preventing the "unworthy" from exposing their precious deepspawn-god to desecration and filth.
Excellent idea. The cult could specialise in sacrificing "the adult that hath not sinned". And for what its worth, all of the newly spawned are virgins too.
quote:
Originally posted by AyrikIf a priest gets consumed, does the spawned clone of the priest still have access to spells and powers granted by his deity? Certainly any capable deity would instantly recognize the unnatural "soul" of this abomination spawned by an abomination - so the question is whether or not this detail actually matters to the deity. Is the clone's faith able to sustain the deity or is it ultimately de-natured and subverted into empty junkfood by the aberrant biology of the deepspawn?
Not automatically, I should think. The spawn would at least have to know that they must call on their god and say their prayers at the appropriate time, which they may not know. Even if they do get their clerical powers 'back', there is no reason to believe it has to be from the same deity. It could be any deity of compatible alignment. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 15:31:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Your idea about deepspawn being used to feed a human sacrifice cult was good. I like that. The cultists could even try to convince the PCs that the spawned don't have souls as justification.
Or this cult could just as easily believe that the spawned souls have been specially "chosen" or "blessed" or "purified". Sacrificing only those who are "worthy" within their own ranks to this exalted status. Preventing the "unworthy" from exposing their precious deepspawn-god to desecration and filth.
A problem with false cults in the Realms is that they don't have a "real" deity capable of granting divine spells and powers. The proof of divinity is as simple as casting some healing magic.
If a priest gets consumed, does the spawned clone of the priest still have access to spells and powers granted by his deity? Certainly any capable deity would instantly recognize the unnatural "soul" of this abomination spawned by an abomination - so the question is whether or not this detail actually matters to the deity. Is the clone's faith able to sustain the deity or is it ultimately de-natured and subverted into empty junkfood by the aberrant biology of the deepspawn?
No, Ayrik, you're mixing up the two threads. The first idea was say a cult of let's say.... Orcus... they get a deepspawn. They feed it rotting food and tree limbs, etc... They get a living being from recycling this "garbage". They put said living being on an altar and sacrifice them. If you didn't want demon cult... church of Loviatar or Shar works just as well. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 15:25:36
quote:
Originally posted by redking
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Deepspawn is worshipped by the villagers as their god, and they produce children, who continue to worship the Deepspawn.
Deepspawn gets back on the spelljamming craft with a handpicked crew of its "descendants". They go to a world of "unbelievers" and start capturing other humans to bring back to their deeospawn master from amongst the outliers of society.
New "unpopulated by intelligent beings" world is colonized, using individuals from all that the deepspawn has eaten. The spelljamming craft is used to open trade and human transportation between the worlds. Worship of the "great eater" expands... deepspawn becomes a god....
I don't really buy that divine ascension happens to mortals due to worship. Yes - after the time of troubles it became the case that in the Forgotten Realms setting the gods require worshippers, and to a large extent the number and quality of these worshippers.
A deepspawn, or a megalomaniac emperor, is just a mortal. It isn't in a position to receive power from worship like a god. Thrallherds are in the same position.
Your idea about deepspawn being used to feed a human sacrifice cult was good. I like that. The cultists could even try to convince the PCs that the spawned don't have souls as justification.
It has been a method of ascension since 1st edition, but to each their own in how they run their campaigns. On the 'soul factory", yeah, that's a very very scary idea from a metaphysical/moral perspective. Essentially in some ways, it would be similar to ... well let's say a deepspawn running a brothel in order to provide young sacrifices. That of course is a dark and twisted campaign that I don't want to run, BUT if one considers what would be "realities" that might occur.... well, the world can be pretty damn dark.
This kind of really edgy and many/most might say sick ideas are why I was pursuing the sterility and soulless lines. I could come up with more if I put my mind to it, but I also don't LIKE putting my mind there. These two very dark things came to me with little effort, so I can definitely see them happening. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 13:34:07
quote:
Your idea about deepspawn being used to feed a human sacrifice cult was good. I like that. The cultists could even try to convince the PCs that the spawned don't have souls as justification.
Or this cult could just as easily believe that the spawned souls have been specially "chosen" or "blessed" or "purified". Sacrificing only those who are "worthy" within their own ranks to this exalted status. Preventing the "unworthy" from exposing their precious deepspawn-god to desecration and filth.
A problem with false cults in the Realms is that they don't have a "real" deity capable of granting divine spells and powers. The proof of divinity is as simple as casting some healing magic.
If a priest gets consumed, does the spawned clone of the priest still have access to spells and powers granted by his deity? Certainly any capable deity would instantly recognize the unnatural "soul" of this abomination spawned by an abomination - so the question is whether or not this detail actually matters to the deity. Is the clone's faith able to sustain the deity or is it ultimately de-natured and subverted into empty junkfood by the aberrant biology of the deepspawn? |
| redking |
Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 10:56:36
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Deepspawn is worshipped by the villagers as their god, and they produce children, who continue to worship the Deepspawn.
Deepspawn gets back on the spelljamming craft with a handpicked crew of its "descendants". They go to a world of "unbelievers" and start capturing other humans to bring back to their deeospawn master from amongst the outliers of society.
New "unpopulated by intelligent beings" world is colonized, using individuals from all that the deepspawn has eaten. The spelljamming craft is used to open trade and human transportation between the worlds. Worship of the "great eater" expands... deepspawn becomes a god....
I don't really buy that divine ascension happens to mortals due to worship. Yes - after the time of troubles it became the case that in the Forgotten Realms setting the gods require worshippers, and to a large extent the number and quality of these worshippers.
A deepspawn, or a megalomaniac emperor, is just a mortal. It isn't in a position to receive power from worship like a god. Thrallherds are in the same position.
Your idea about deepspawn being used to feed a human sacrifice cult was good. I like that. The cultists could even try to convince the PCs that the spawned don't have souls as justification. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Jul 2021 : 21:17:13
Going to souls, if you view a soul as something unique and special then it is difficult to imagine a deep spawn being able to create beings that have souls and can therefore reproduce and create other beings that have souls.
I however do not believe souls are any such thing.
What is a soul, most think that a creature with independent thoughts and feelings has a soul. But what about animals such as dolphins, what about plant based creatures such as Thorns.
The outer planes place a high value on souls, but why. Outer planar creatures do not have souls and yet they can think and feel.
For me a soul is a piece of positive energy wrapped in material plane matter to animate it.
You can use magic to animate normally inanimate matter such as a chair or a tree. You can also awaken a chair or a tree and I would say give that creature a soul.
Positive energy is memetic, it stores memories, the more positive energy in one place the more memories it stores.
You accrue more positive energy by experiencing life, by eating, by doing things that help you grow as a being, perfectly represented by a score such as experience points.
Babies and newly created creatures have relatively little positive energy (but more than a plant or a rock). As it grows and eats and does things it accrues more positive energy until it reaches that sentience critical mass.
Some creatures are of course better at storing this positive energy (humanoids better than animals, better than plants), but you can use magic to change that.
Then we get onto clones and deep spawn. It creates a new being and gives it some of it's own positive energy (as a mother does to a baby), it can easily replace that energy by eating. A clone has more memories and energy than a baby (hence the experience or level or constitution cost to the creator). A spawn has some base instincts and skills but less of the memories so it must have less positive energy, but it can accrue more through living.
Now in theory a spawn could grow strong enough in its soul to gain independence (and may be the reason why deep spawn do not overrun the world - they have to recycle their spawn to keep them under control).
Also in theory negative energy should have similar properties but cannot exist in material bodies.
Positive Energy is of course valuable to everything because it is how you give life or the semblance of life to anything, including divine servitors. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jul 2021 : 20:56:13
With all this talk, just felt like making a deepspawn model and coloring it
Spawner of the Deeps (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4919308) by sleyvas is licensed under the Creative Commons - Attribution license.
Based on the picture in LEoF, I went with the idea that they do have at least one slightly bigger eye and used someone's coronavirus beholder as my base to play with.
As always, if someone wants to use my picture (or put it in a program and jank with it to make it look like you want.... or color your own 3d model in paint3d) to use in say a module for DM's Guild, you are more than welcome. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jul 2021 : 13:48:55
One kind of crazy concept just popped in my head, if we did go with the idea of spawn having souls and being able to reproduce. I figured for fun I'd throw it out and see where it goes.
Deepspawn feeds upon the outliers of multiple human villages as well as some kind of creature(s) with spellcasting ability. It thus ends up with the genetic code of perhaps 300 humans "stored" in its memory.
Deepspawn is captured by spelljamming crew who "plan to use it to create food on their journeys" and who keep it mind controlled
Deepspawn finds its ship attacked by space pirates and its crew decimated... few survive.... because the deepspawn finishes the remainder off
Deepspawn creates a pilot for the vessel (if it can't pilot itself)
Deepspawn lands on a planet with no sentient life, and creates a human population resembling the village it ate. Feeding upon the animal and plant population of the planet, it continues to do this, creating multiple communities.
Deepspawn is worshipped by the villagers as their god, and they produce children, who continue to worship the Deepspawn.
Deepspawn gets back on the spelljamming craft with a handpicked crew of its "descendants". They go to a world of "unbelievers" and start capturing other humans to bring back to their deeospawn master from amongst the outliers of society.
New "unpopulated by intelligent beings" world is colonized, using individuals from all that the deepspawn has eaten. The spelljamming craft is used to open trade and human transportation between the worlds. Worship of the "great eater" expands... deepspawn becomes a god....
|
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 28 Jul 2021 : 09:52:25
Beautiful Flower is a bit of an anomaly. I read as much of the section in your link as I could, but the limitations I have with this old computer (Bill Clinton was still President when this thing was made), I only had the first two paragraphs. But FR stuff always ends up in the wiki, and so, too, was Beautiful Flower. Perusing that showed that this deepspawn only had a single, centrally-located mouth tentacle, which is unlike the three mouth tentacles of the two write-ups we have been looking at in 3.0 & 3.5 stat blocks. I don't know if this makes Beautiful Flower a one-off or if it was just a mistake between authors in appearance consistency that is otherwise in-line with the rest of its kind.
The wiki entry for Beautiful Flower has written a statement that indicates that this named deepspawn is no different in any way from the others. Since the wiki follows the plagiarism rule of Wikipedia and anything written there must be in the entry writer's own words then possibilities for mis-statements and writing errors do occur. Because I can't see the original text, would someone confirm if this statement appears in "Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor" either verbatim or with approximating words? quote:
One of the most notable abilities of the deepspawn was its ability to replicate creatures it consumed, even if the flesh consumed was nothing but a small chunk of the creature.
This is a statement only found on Beautiful Flower's wiki page and is not referenced at all on the wiki entry for deepspawn nor was it in MoF & LEF released in the years after PoR:AoMD was published. I mean, "devour" has a definition that is far removed from the above quotation's "nibble."
While looking at the wiki entries for deepspawn to see if there were other such write-ups, I noticed that it included a reference from AD&Ds "Hellgate Keep" dungeon crawl of which I have a copy. Digging that out and reading it gave me a description of a motivated & scheming deepspawn that had three weapon/tentacle attacks & three bite attacks... and had ESP at will as per the norm for deepspawn in that earlier edition. It also included this passage which may influence notions on deepspawn mistreating their spawn: "With the only food source being spiders and worms, the deepspawn fed on these until it had regained enough strength to spawn a number of trolls. One troll it kept close as a food source, consuming its head, arms, and legs, and allowing its torso to regenerate (and thus remain a replenishable food source). The other trolls it created have either fed on the worms and spiders or each other." Since the deepspawn here was trapped, this may be situational except for the fact that spiders & worms were sustaining and particularly plentiful inside that area. |
| redking |
Posted - 28 Jul 2021 : 03:27:07
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
A being with a soul can worship and affect/create gods, and I just see a lot of potential possibly for abuse here. For instance, maybe a deepspawn that creates his own worshippers in order to try to ascend to godhood. If we remove the soul from this equation, we remove this issue. However, if we add a POSSIBILITY that spawn CAN get souls, it makes the possibility of some interesting stories.
A guess a deepspawn could order it's spawn to worship it and the spawn would go through the motions of performing rituals or whatever. Whether that constitutes the true faith needed for divine ascension is questionable.
I think we fundamentally see the spawned differently. You see them as soulless magical creations under the absolute control of the deepspawn, like a simulacrum. Therefore you need to come up with all kinds of limitations on the spawned.
You are worried about the implications of soul harvesting operations. I see these implications as a good opportunity for adventure.
I see the spawned as normal creatures, as duplicates of the original creature. The difference is that the spawned does not have the memories of the original and has inborn loyalty to its deepspawn creator.
According to Ed, unless the deepspawn creator has a way of feeding all its spawn, excess spawn are sent away to live normal lives elsewhere (normal for its creature type). It's worth noting that I haven't found any material that suggests that deepspawn mistreat it's sentient spawn. All of the mistreatment I have seen is from DSCVs.
What I am saying is that you could meet one of the spawned down at the alehouse and he'd be a completely normal member of his species, assuming the original was normal. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 18:39:10
I hate responding back with the line for line thing, because then the responding back to THAT makes the whole thread convoluted to read. Just to be clear why I've reverted to just responding in general.
The point I was making in the above was not "what are the rules as written" but "what might we do in order to make these more viable", and you seem to want to refute me that this is how it works because this is how it works and Ed said. I'm just looking at this creature and going "what do we NEED in order for this creature to accomplish its goal". The goal is to make creatures that spit out "spawn" for dungeons. In most instances, this will be a base creature. In doing so, anything we can do to curb the power of the spawn. In the case of class levels, you open a whole can of worms because then people "build" for instance a deepspawn that's protected itself by making an army of wizards, clerics, etc... that each memorize different spells, and their first act is to cast protections on the spawn. Another goal is to reduce the moral issues it can create (such as children of the spawn being eaten by the spawn or killed by their parents just to prevent potential lack of control issues, turning garbage/dead bodies into soul filled sacrifices in an ever repeating fashion, etc....).
On the living constructs thing, the key difference isn't their ability to think, it's that they have souls and thus can be resurrected. That's not a major thing, but just wanted to point out where I was going there. A lot of this comes down to the soul issue, and I didn't think I was going to go there when this all started. A being with a soul can worship and affect/create gods, and I just see a lot of potential possibly for abuse here. For instance, maybe a deepspawn that creates his own worshippers in order to try to ascend to godhood. If we remove the soul from this equation, we remove this issue. However, if we add a POSSIBILITY that spawn CAN get souls, it makes the possibility of some interesting stories.
BTW, thanks for the idea of bringing back endangered species via deepspawn. That's a good idea. Granted with my ideas, there would have to be some additional workarounds, but its intriguing. I need to think on some of this more.
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 17:24:45
quote:
Originally posted by redking
Deepspawn, being aberrations, are going to have a strange way of breeding, whatever that may be.
As well as bizarre forms, unnatural talents and offbeat points of view?  |
| redking |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 16:42:06
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where does everyone keep getting this "spawn keep their class abilities" thing? Is that 3.5?
As you found out yourself, 3.5e put a pretty strict limitation on the CR of the spawn. CR limitations are better than HD limitations, because HD limitations can be overcome by template abuse. 3.0 kept the inability of spawn to be even magically turned against their deepspawn creator, while 3.5 changed that and made the spawn able to be magically dominated normally (while maintaining a fanatic attitude towards the deepspawn). Much more elegant.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvasSo, to get to the nitty gritty, what's the purpose of a deepspawn? Was it meant to break the world or solve some weird dungeon anomalies? It was to solve some dungeon anomalies. So, let's create the ruleset that allows for that to occur, WHILE also allowing for us to have some NON-dungeon related scenarios too within limits.
Not sure, but I discovered a bunch of DSCVs in Volo's Guide to Cormyr. Here is one of them.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
First, I can see people wondering why I keep bringing up sterility. My thoughts there were "deepspawn shouldn't be able to create things with true souls, and things without true souls shouldn't be able to procreate". Much as how the person ponders in the GHotR entry, the spawn shouldn't be perfect copies either (I know Ed says that in his campaign they were, but just because Ed says it doesn't mean it is always perfect..... he comes up with great ideas, but sometimes people need to roll him in). Also, IF spawn can procreate, then are the created controlled by the deepspawn? This breaks into so many complexities that.... just nix it... make them sterile and the problem goes away.
The spawned are normal members of their race and type. The only difference is their fanatic attitude towards their deepspawn creator. Progeny of the spawned would just be normal creatures of their race and type. There is no problem at all.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvasSecond - keep class abilities or lose them? I vote lose them, except for base weapon, armor, and language proficiencies. They should keep race abilities and "base" skills that a first level person might have.
Why the laser focus on creatures with class levels? Would you deny a monster spawn its racial HD?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvasThird - limit the creation ability by size and CR? I say yes here. I like the CR6 limitation. The 3.5 entry also specifies "only living creations native to the material plane" can be copied as well. So, it can't recreate a golem, a devil, etc... but it could in theory recreate a "living construct".
Yes. The CR 6 limitation for the spawn it produces is smart. Not that the spawned couldn't gain levels later on. I suggested a possible nerf for spawn, starting them at 0 XP whatever their level upthread. 'Living constructs' aren't really alive. Its more like an "I think therefore I am" situation. Living constructs have the construct type and aren't biological.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Fourth - Are they living? Take a moment and breathe here, because think of the repercussions. I'm not even sure if I have the right answer here, but I'd vote no. For instance, I'd hate for some demon cult to be using a deepspawn to turn collected garbage that they feed to a deepspawn into "sacrificial victims" that they can harvest souls from. What are the repercussions to them being soulless?
They are alive and have souls. Not the same souls as the original, but their own souls. If you say elsewise then you have to come up with a convoluted story about how these soulless beings interact with the world. Using deepspawn to spawn creatures for sacrifice is vile. There are probably evil cults doing this.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What else SHOULD we do in order to make this a more viable creature (spawn and deepspawn)?
The spawned seem viable to me. Clones of some original creature that cannot but feel a sense of loyalty to the deepspawn. In 3.5e terms, have an attitude of helpful towards the deepspawn in normal circumstances, and which increases to an attitude of fanatic when the deepspawn is under threat.
From the SRD: Helpful means - will take risks to help you. Possible actions - protect, back up, heal, aid.
Fanatic: The attitude of fanatic is added here. In addition to the obvious effects, any NPC whose attitude is fanatic gains a +2 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution scores, a +1 morale bonus on Will saves, and a -1 penalty to AC whenever fighting for the character or his or her cause. This attitude will remain for one day plus one day per point of the character’s Charisma bonus, at which point the NPC’s attitude will revert to its original attitude (or indifferent, if no attitude is specified).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Well, let's discuss how deepspawn procreate (as in where do NEW deepspawn come from) and where did the originals come from?
Deepspawn, being aberrations, are going to have a strange way of breeding, whatever that may be.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On how deepspawn procreate themselves, I like the idea that they eventually "advance" to gargantuan size, and then when they do, they "spawn" copies of themselves with a "clean slate" as to what they've eaten. Maybe after "birthing" a dozen or so of themselves they themselves die finally?
Maybe cell division?
A druid would surely be conflicted by the existence of deepspawn. On one hand, they are aberrant and not part of nature. On the other, a deepspawn can bring back endangered species from the brink of destruction.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 15:47:09
@RedKing - thanks for the link to more info in GHotR about spawn wars. Going to read what was done there. Hmmm, so it does indicate there that it seems MANY/BOTH sides were doing the replicating, as the "storyteller" believes himself to not be a "first" either. It would also seem that while Korolnor was worshipping Diinkarazan, other dwarven kingdoms of Shanatar were still following the Mordinsamman. I guess the question comes down to "who was running the deepspawn, and was it the followers of Diinkarazan OR a mix across religions?"
Where does everyone keep getting this "spawn keep their class abilities" thing? Is that 3.5? In 2e, looking at the entry for deepspawn in Dwarve's Deep it says
The "spawn" have the natural attacks, including spell-like powers, alignment, and intelligence of their forebears, but class abilities and other learned skills are not gained.
Granted, I do like the addition in 3.5e that they can only create a certain hit dice limit, and I think a mix of both these is necessary. Let me go look at the 3.5e version of spawn though real quick. Looks like they were in Lost Empires of Faerun. AH, and there it is, a complete change from the earlier edition
Spawn (Ex): A deepspawn is usually encountered with one to three of its spawn—monsters of CR 4 to 6. Spawn are fanatically loyal to the deepspawn that spawned them and
willingly fight to the death to defend it. To determine what kind of spawn accompanies any given deepspawn, roll d% and consult Table 11–1.
A deepspawn can spawn only creatures identical to those it has physically consumed. Each spawn possesses even the learned abilities (such as class level, skills, and spells known) of the original but retains only dim memories of its former life. Only Large or smaller corporeal, living creatures native to the Material Plane can be spawned. After spawning, a deepspawn must wait 4d6 days before doing so again.
So, since we're going back and forth a bit, let's just discuss for a minute what they can and can't do. As SaMoCon also points out, things are not written in legalese, which I'd say.... let's take a gander at it and US do that. So, deepspawn in 2nd edition could clone almost anything, BUT not with class levels intact. In 3.5e they could clone things theoretically up to CR6 (which I vote to make that a cap), but they kept their class levels.
So, to get to the nitty gritty, what's the purpose of a deepspawn? Was it meant to break the world or solve some weird dungeon anomalies? It was to solve some dungeon anomalies. So, let's create the ruleset that allows for that to occur, WHILE also allowing for us to have some NON-dungeon related scenarios too within limits.
First, I can see people wondering why I keep bringing up sterility. My thoughts there were "deepspawn shouldn't be able to create things with true souls, and things without true souls shouldn't be able to procreate". Much as how the person ponders in the GHotR entry, the spawn shouldn't be perfect copies either (I know Ed says that in his campaign they were, but just because Ed says it doesn't mean it is always perfect..... he comes up with great ideas, but sometimes people need to roll him in). Also, IF spawn can procreate, then are the created controlled by the deepspawn? This breaks into so many complexities that.... just nix it... make them sterile and the problem goes away.
It also creates an opportunity for story, as these people won't be driven by the standards that drive much of the intelligent races. These spawned suddenly become beings who maybe lack a need or want for love... initially... but maybe they can LEARN to love. On a more "adult" level, some of them may take up positions that mimic love purely for the reason that they lack the ability to suffer the normal repercussions (i.e. they can't get pregnant). I will try to not go far down the road of a deepspawn run brothel at this time, but one can see it as a possibility and even a probability... and this way we don't end up with deepspawn eating the children propogated on their spawn.... though that could make for another interesting story if a "spawn mother" were able to break control in order to protect her offspring (i.e. in some ways a reflection of Cronos and Zeus), but it's just a little creepy to me.
Second - keep class abilities or lose them? I vote lose them, except for base weapon, armor, and language proficiencies. They should keep race abilities and "base" skills that a first level person might have.
Third - limit the creation ability by size and CR? I say yes here. I like the CR6 limitation. The 3.5 entry also specifies "only living creations native to the material plane" can be copied as well. So, it can't recreate a golem, a devil, etc... but it could in theory recreate a "living construct".
Fourth - Are they living? Take a moment and breathe here, because think of the repercussions. I'm not even sure if I have the right answer here, but I'd vote no. For instance, I'd hate for some demon cult to be using a deepspawn to turn collected garbage that they feed to a deepspawn into "sacrificial victims" that they can harvest souls from. What are the repercussions to them being soulless? I'm not exactly sure, but it would seem to bind them more to the deepspawn in my head. This also opens up the add on question of "But can they become living?". So, to this.... like Pinocchio... I vote yes. In some case, it might be like a Pinocchio story, but with Lurue touching them with her horn and bestowing a soul on them. Other gods might do similar in order to attract new clerics, paladins, druids, etc... In some cases, it might be like a very DARK Pinocchio, and maybe they steal the soul of another living thing using some magic item or some magic ritual. In doing this, perhaps they even change themselves and CAN have children. Some really dark and twisted stories might revolve around freed spawn whose master has died that go around sacrificing goblins, kobolds, and orcs to give themselves souls, and being paid to do it by communities of people who just want a monster nuisance removed (somewhat like witchers). Perhaps this is done via some warlock pact with a being who helps them gain a soul in order to... lead into the next question.
Fifth - Can they advance in class abilities? I'm going to say "no, but with a caveat". What if they "gain a soul"? Might they then be able to advance? To this, I say yes. In this story, let's go back to that idea of a deepspawn that eats a warforged.... maybe the spawn are "soulless" warforged.... until they do something, like make a pact with Haagenti, the demon lord of Alchemy and Artifice, and he gives them a soul from one in the abyss and they become "living constructs".
SIDEBAR: So one thing I noted in DD's guide to the Underdark, was a statement that some people believe that derro may be a result of duergar/dwarves and human breeding. MToF remarks on the "twin brothers" Diirinka and Diinkarazan, and Diirinkia betrays Diinkarazan to steal magic. Monster Mythology relates a story or Diirinka and Diinkarazan encountering the brain of Ilsensine, and Diirinka backstabbing Diinkarazan and leaving him behind in order to steal the magical knowledge of Ilsensine, which he then uses to create the derro race. This story (twins... Ilsensine and being near Oryndoll) is just screaming to me of a story on the creation of Derro, especially given that one city of Shanatar was dedicated to the deity who was backstabbed and left behind, and whom the monster mythology remarks as that god is bound to a throne by Ilsensine now. I may start a new thread on this....
What else SHOULD we do in order to make this a more viable creature (spawn and deepspawn)?
Well, let's discuss how deepspawn procreate (as in where do NEW deepspawn come from) and where did the originals come from?
For this, lets discuss for a brief moment the other "recreating someone kind of like a spawn" that's been done..... Alias. Now, if it was as easy as just feeding an alias clone to a deepspawn, I think that would have been done. That tells me that maybe Alias is more advanced than a spawn is (which she seems to have a soul and can advance, so I'd say she is).
But why do I bring her up specifically? Who was involved in her creation? One of the beings involved was Phalse... a "beholder like being whose tentacles ended in mouths"
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Phalse
What's the description of a deepspawn?
Deepspawn looked like large, rubbery spheres of mottled grey and brown. Six arms projected from their bodies; three were tentacle-arms, and three were jaw-arms, ending in mouths of many teeth. A deepspawn also had over 40 long, retractable, flexible eyestalks, but it extended only three or four at a time, well away from harm.
Phalse is a being that I've often wondered about, as possibly an avatar of Leira hiding her true self. That aside, Phalse was known for "finding the being known as dragonbait to bring for sacrifice to take his soul to make Alias" and he was also known for "creating echoes of Alias in secret from his allies". So, creating "spawn" of Cassana almost, and being invested in this for the idea of putting a soul into a "spawn". Perhaps Phalse is either a deepspawn that's ascended to godhood, OR its the creator of deepspawn?
On how deepspawn procreate themselves, I like the idea that they eventually "advance" to gargantuan size, and then when they do, they "spawn" copies of themselves with a "clean slate" as to what they've eaten. Maybe after "birthing" a dozen or so of themselves they themselves die finally?
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| redking |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 13:41:27
I just discovered this scroll.
quote:
5.3. What were The Spawn Wars?
Eric Boyd:
The Spawn Wars have not been mentioned elsewhere, but you should be able to piece together bits of information from DDGttU, particularly from the write-up of Iltkazar.
The quick explanation:
There was a time before "Shanatar" was established when Alatorin was in the hands of the drow and the other dwarven subkingdoms warred amongst themselves. In those days, the dwarven gods were each associated with a particular clan. The Spawn Wars saw the use of deepspawn to produce vast numbers of dwarven troops quickly, who were then hurled into battle against each other. Eventually, the dwarven kingdoms abandoned their internecine strife and came together, although not all the deepspawn were destroyed. It should be noted that the Spawned (as they were called) were treated as second-class citizens at best and banned from breeding. However, a few did, and some suspect that a taint of weakness was introduced into the dwarven race in this fashion that now contributes to the declining birth rate.
Deepspawn were first detailed in FR11 - Dwarves Deep, but they have since appeared in other sources. (Definitely in one of the MC Annuals, and I believe in another Realms product as well.)
A major infestation of deepspawn was found in The Beast Marches, NW of Myth Drannor. This tidbit appeared long ago in Polyhedron or LC2 (can't recall which). It was developed in "Fall of Myth Drannor". See the timeline and causes of the fall in that module.
Other deepspawn that have appeared in the Realms include:
a) one under Zazesspur (see War in Tethyr where it was named)
b) one under Hellgate Keep (see the module)
c) one under Iltkazar (see DDGttU)
d) one under the Shipwreck Plains (see Wyrmskull Throne)
Ed and Steven tend to include a lot of throwaway references to deepspawn appearing all over the place as well. A good way to think of them is sort of like solitary beholders ... they're strong enough to establish themselves at the top of the local food chain and be a major player in a region.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
I could "suppose" an alchemical process instead of an organic one is truly at work to produce a developed being at supernatural rates that defies biological processes in terms of materials and energy, but nothing of the sort was written for the process.
The raw materials needed for spawning and the necessary cloning templates acquired by deepspawn are separate issues. For all we know, all that is needed by a deepspawn to establish a template for cloning is a flesh sample that it consumes. Maybe this isn't the case. There is no guidance about that regardless.
For the spawning raw materials, Thormil's Secret offers some guidance.
quote:
Though some sages have long believed that deepspawn don’t actually create creatures, but rather act as living portals that snatch creatures from elsewhere to appear “out of” the deepspawn, the truth is that deepspawn somehow “record” the anatomy of all the creatures they devour, and replicate it, gleaning the necessary ingredients from their surroundings. (In the wild, deepspawn roam constantly, instinctively taking what they need.) A deepspawn that can’t get what it needs to spawn won’t spawn until it does. If one is wallowing amid the dead and dying of a battleground, it can spawn every three days, but normally these monsters spawn every 4d6 days.
Deepspawn can create exact duplicates only of creatures they have devoured. Spawn issue forth with an intense, inborn loyalty to their deepspawn parent, but will be sent away to live on their own by the deepspawn unless food is plentiful for them to survive. Some deepspawn keep company with a few (typically 1d4) of their spawn to use them as servants, defenders, or lures for other prey (or even to eat, if food grows scarce). Other deepspawn prefer to roam alone, and always send their spawn away, or retain only monstrous spawn that fight formidably, to deal with numerous foes.
The raw materials a deepspawn needs to generate and birth a spawn are lots of water, certain minerals (usually taken from devoured or crushed rocks, but sometimes just scraped off rock walls), tiny amounts of certain plant life (substances from mosses, lichens, or fungi), blood from living creatures they devour, ones of dead or living creatures they devour and dissolve, and dung (human will do, so Thormil never has to dig himself new privy pits and move the outhouse). Deepspawn can store gleaned ingredients within their bodies for long periods, and seem to need little or no light as a spawning ingredient.
Since we have people that can contact Ed Greenwood, we should ask Ed exactly how much of a creature that a deepspawn must east before the deepspawn can spawn duplicates of that creature. Why speculate when we can go right to the source. Can someone make this happen?
I discovered this. Pool of Radiance - Attack on Myth Drannor, page 43. This D&D 3.0 module primarily deals with a deepspawn and its spawn and is really the only module that does so in depth. If you click on the link, you will see that samples of creatures are enough for the deepspawn to make cloning templates. This is the best evidence so far, unless Ed Greenwood says difference. See the link for yourself. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 11:53:49
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Dead bodies or mortally wounded beings are beneficial materials for creating spawn, and not new templates for other spawn.
quote:
Originally posted by redking
That is supposition without even inference. If the writers of the deepspawn entry meant something that specific they would have spelled it out.
*face-palms* I just got done saying this.quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
The entirety of lore and game materials should not have to be written in legalese for us to understand the authors' intent.
You do understand that the game authors put out books? That they had limitations of space for everything they wrote, it had to be restricted to under X many pages, the words used had to be concise, and the total work had to be easily understood at an 8th grade reading level? Then everything gets edited for the overruns. They could not spell out the authors' vision in legalese to cover every possible meaning they intended for us to get and have a small enough book that looks attractive and is affordable. And keep in mind we are talking about the lore of a monster that does not have any impact on a "one and done" scenario or dungeon-crawling game. For everything that is not detailed, how do you go about filling in those gaps? Personally, I look at what the author's wrote as being important enough to survive editing, even the flavor text, because it indicates how they wanted us to develop what wasn't written in lawyer-speak.
And, yes, "infer" is the correct word if I am using the words written by the authors (complete with quotes and references) to deduce what they may be implying. Given the context of statements for the production of spawn around the words "devour," "ingredients," and "claim resources" coupled with the specificity of the deepspawn's grapple attack doing automatic bite damage instead of merely squeezing the life out of the victim, I "inferred" a definition of what the criteria was for "devour" and why a hideously powerful creature would need to grapple an opponent. I could "suppose" an alchemical process instead of an organic one is truly at work to produce a developed being at supernatural rates that defies biological processes in terms of materials and energy, but nothing of the sort was written for the process. |
| redking |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 00:00:37
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ah, and the spawn wars is in Drizzt's guide to the underdark... some notes.. so I would note that during the time of the spawn wars, at least one of the kingdoms of Shanatar was worshipping a derro god instead of the Mordinsamman (i.e. Diinkarazan). It also seems they weren't creating dwarves to breed with, but creating soldiers, though there IS a noted drop in their birth rate after this war is over.
See page 17 of Grand History of the Realms for a contemporary account of that time by one of the spawned.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvasAlso, based on the below, I wouldn't be surprised if the spawn wars was because an avatar of Diinkarazan didn't show up and start feeding captured dwarves to deepspawn while having derro residing in one of the eight kingdoms of shanatar. I also wouldn't be surprised if the ruler of Korolnor wasn't a derro (possibly even unknown to the people).
The spawnwars are the deeds of the 'good dwarves', not derro scapegoats.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvasWould it be interesting if a deepspawn were to go to Eberron and eat a warforged? Would warforged consider this something akin to "sacrilege" and these spawn are tainted creations? Or the exact opposite?
The latest version of the deepspawn that I know of is the 3.5e version, and it is the sanest version of deepspawn. 2E deepspawn could clone almost anything, including archmages with all their class levels intact. 3.5e deepspawn have CR limitations (CR 6) and are limited to cloning "only Large or smaller corporeal, living creatures native to the Material Plane can be spawned". That probably rules out warforged, because warforged are constructs and do not sleep, eat, or breathe. Warforged modality of 'living' is vastly different to the biological cloning of living beings by deepspawn.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertI don't see a need to go as far as making the spawns sterile, especially since they keep class abilities and memorized spells and such -- it seems odd that a spawn would be so perfect in other ways, yet flawed in this one specific way.
Ed Greenwood describes the spawned as normal in every way. This is a quote from The Hooded One.
"On August 8, 2005 THO said: A Deepspawn duplicates a particular orc (or human, or whatever) it has devoured: endless copies of exactly the same creature. They "come alive" knowing their bodies and how to use them (a human trained with a longsword could use it just as before death), but without prior memories (wizards don't have memorized spells, and human copy A meeting human copy B might say: "You look a lot like my reflection in yon pool," but WOULDN'T immediately say: "Hey, you're me!"
If that helps. That's the way Ed (who created Deepspawn) has always run them, anyway. We Knights ran into quite a few of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think part of the issue is already referenced here -- the spawned dwarves are referred to as "a vilified warrior caste". So you've got the originals dying, and then copies of them that people know are copies and don't want to have anything to do with.
Perhaps the dwarves started out with the deepspawning projects with the best of intentions. Imagine for a moment that a dwarven settlement had a craftsman of unrivalled talent, a Mozart of crafting. Then they realize that they could use a captured deepspawn to clone him (perhaps, like Mozart, he had an early and untimely death). Now the dwarven settlement has several of these crafting masters and now the idea of cloning people is established. Its hardly a stretch to start cloning a warrior caste, which over time becomes vilified.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can see limiting the spawn in other ways, though -- you could say that a spawn wouldn't be able to advance in levels or HD (whichever is appropriate), or that such advancement would be greatly slowed. Even though an otherwise perfect copy, the spawn is an unnatural thing and thus lacks whatever it takes to make it capable of advancing.
There is no reason to nerf the spawn themselves. In 3.5, the spawn were capped at CR 6. If you simply had to nerf the spawn, then do it in a way that nerfs the 'parent' deepspawn instead. You could say that a 6th level human fighter produced by a deepspawn is indeed 6th level, but has zero experience points. Thus to gain a level (that is, to advance to level 7), the spawn needs 21,000 experience points (that is, all the experience points from level 1 to 7). That makes certain that the deepspawn (or the deepspawn's controllers) aren't getting an easy source of XP for crafting or other purposes.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 16:55:10
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ah, and the spawn wars is in Drizzt's guide to the underdark... some notes.. so I would note that during the time of the spawn wars, at least one of the kingdoms of Shanatar was worshipping a derro god instead of the Mordinsamman (i.e. Diinkarazan). It also seems they weren't creating dwarves to breed with, but creating soldiers, though there IS a noted drop in their birth rate after this war is over. Rather than making this a genetic defect cause by inbreeding with deepspawn spawn, I think perhaps another answer might be that spawn dwarves that were either male or female were "accepted" by dwarven society in place of their fallen husbands and/or wives, and "being sterile" they couldn't produce children (to note, the being sterile is my own rule). Other spawn may not have replaced the spot in their old families, but they also weren't cast out either. Some dwarves may have considered this a perversion, or just had a problem dealing with the idea that "dad" is not their "real" dad... but a spawn... and the sense of dwarven family fell apart, and thus dwarves started leaving. Is that a valid argument/idea?
I don't see a need to go as far as making the spawns sterile, especially since they keep class abilities and memorized spells and such -- it seems odd that a spawn would be so perfect in other ways, yet flawed in this one specific way.
I think part of the issue is already referenced here -- the spawned dwarves are referred to as "a vilified warrior caste". So you've got the originals dying, and then copies of them that people know are copies and don't want to have anything to do with.
So the originals are dead and can't reproduce, and the copies are rejected by the families/loved ones of the originals and thus don't get the opportunity to reproduce. Boom, population decline, and physical sterility isn't a factor.
I can see limiting the spawn in other ways, though -- you could say that a spawn wouldn't be able to advance in levels or HD (whichever is appropriate), or that such advancement would be greatly slowed. Even though an otherwise perfect copy, the spawn is an unnatural thing and thus lacks whatever it takes to make it capable of advancing. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 16:10:04
Ah, and the spawn wars is in Drizzt's guide to the underdark... some notes.. so I would note that during the time of the spawn wars, at least one of the kingdoms of Shanatar was worshipping a derro god instead of the Mordinsamman (i.e. Diinkarazan). It also seems they weren't creating dwarves to breed with, but creating soldiers, though there IS a noted drop in their birth rate after this war is over. Rather than making this a genetic defect cause by inbreeding with deepspawn spawn, I think perhaps another answer might be that spawn dwarves that were either male or female were "accepted" by dwarven society in place of their fallen husbands and/or wives, and "being sterile" they couldn't produce children (to note, the being sterile is my own rule). Other spawn may not have replaced the spot in their old families, but they also weren't cast out either. Some dwarves may have considered this a perversion, or just had a problem dealing with the idea that "dad" is not their "real" dad... but a spawn... and the sense of dwarven family fell apart, and thus dwarves started leaving. Is that a valid argument/idea?
Also, based on the below, I wouldn't be surprised if the spawn wars was because an avatar of Diinkarazan didn't show up and start feeding captured dwarves to deepspawn while having derro residing in one of the eight kingdoms of shanatar. I also wouldn't be surprised if the ruler of Korolnor wasn't a derro (possibly even unknown to the people).
I also wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a deepspawn in Korolnor that puts out trolls as spawn. It would be interesting if troll raiding teams were sent out to gather meat to bring back to the deepspawn to create new trolls, and also if the ashes of "fallen" trolls were even brought back "so they can be reborn" by being eaten by the deepspawn.
EDIT: As we discuss deepspawn as well, one rather unusual idea pops in my head. Would it be interesting if a deepspawn were to go to Eberron and eat a warforged? Would warforged consider this something akin to "sacrilege" and these spawn are tainted creations? Or the exact opposite?
page 85
One of the eight subkingdoms of Deep Shanatar, the Jewel Kingdom of Korolnor lives on. Although not as deep as Torgfor (see below), Korolnor was located far beneath the surface in an extensive network of caverns with numerous surface links.
<snip>
When Korolnor was first found millennia ago, the dwarves honored Diinkarazan as their patron deity. After the Spawn Wars, worship of Diinkarazan was abandoned throughout Shanatar, including in Korolnor, in favor of worshiping the entire dwarven pantheon. Nevertheless, a legacy of Diinkarazan's faith remains within the deepest caverns of the kingdom.
The Throne of the Mad God once served as the ruling seat of Korolnor's monarchs, but today it contains the last remnant of Diinkarazan's power in the Realms Below. By unknown means, Diinkarazan can manifest a shadow of his ancient power through the ancient throne and direct the trolls of Stommheim, despite his imprisonment by Ilsensine. Led by secret derro renegades drawn to Diinkarazan's madness, the troll armies battle surface dwellers for the mountains above and the mind flayers of Oryndoll for the caverns below. Since the Time of Troubles, Diinkarazan's power has begun to increase anew. War between the trolls and the thrall armies of Oryndoll threatens once again to engulf the Underdark of eastern Amn and the Shining Plains.
page 105
During the Spawn Wars, captive deepspawn were used to breed a ready-made dwarf army, a vilified warrior caste known as the Spawned. Eventually the rulers of Iltkazar and the other dwarven kingdoms swore off such tactics and pledged to work through their differences. The armistice that followed helped create the Shanatar empire. However, three captive deepspawn were not destroyed on the remote chance that they would be needed again. Instead they were imprisoned by the city's most powerful runecasters. Within a few generations, however, the monsters were forgotten and memories of the Spawn Wars atrocities faded.
Recently, after millennia of imprisonment, one of the deepspawn has escaped its prison and haunts the Underways, feeding on the small colony of jermlaine who live there. "Mawswarm" (an approximate translation of the monster's name into Common) still thirsts for vengeance, despite the millennia. For now, the deepspawn breeds jermlaine to spy on the city. Eventually it will breed dwarves to infiltrate the populace of Iltkazar in preparation for the day when it enslaves them all. Anyone who stumbles into the Underways is captured by the jermlaine and quickly consumed by their monstrous master.
page 106
Deep Shanatar
The ancient empire of Shanatar was the first and greatest shield dwarf realm, a sprawling territory that encompassed the upper Underdark beneath modern Amn, Tethyr, Erlkazar, Calimshan, and the Almraiven Peninsula. A wave of emigration led to the establishment of eight subkingdoms: Barakuir, Drakkalor, Iltkazar, Korolnor, Sondarr, Torglor, Ultoksamrin, and Xothaerin.
After the dwarves fought each other in the Spawn Wars, the rulers of the eight subkingdoms convened in Brightaxe Hall to forge a lasting peace in a united Shanataran empire. The Wyrmskull Throne became the mobile seat of authority from kingdom to kingdom in the empire. High Shanatar replaced the former aboveground kingdom, and the eight subkingdoms in the Underdark collectively became known as Deep Shanatar.
Both above and below the surface, Shanatar slowly fell apart as the birth rate plummeted and dwarves emigrated north. Today only Iltkazar survives.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 14:55:31
quote:
Originally posted by redking
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Mind you redking had a good story in that other thread with dwarves using deepspawn to replenish their race (I'd put that more on derro than dwarves though, as I don't see dwarves feeding their womenfolk to deepspawn to make more of them... its just immoral beyond belief in my view to dwarven ethics)
I speculated that deepspawn cloned dwarves mixed in with natural born dwarves, but dwarves using deepspawn to produce dwarves is 100% canon. It happened during the Spawn Wars in -9000 DR and probably at other times and places as well.
So at minimum the dwarves were feeding deepspawn dwarves for the purpose of cloning them to use in combat. Remember that dwarves are often greedy. The abilities of a deepspawn would be very hard to pass up.
Oh really? I'll have to look that up. In thinking on it, I could see followers of Laduguer using spawn to make dwarven workers, especially with their religious focus on toiling away. On other dwarves, I wonder if it might not be something where a deepspawn ate a dwarf and THEN they got control of it, and then someone might make justifications to use it? It still seems like a very immoral things for them though. I also want to see if they explicitly mention using the spawn to breed with, because that's a very different thing. I still want to read up this spawn wars entry.... guessing dwarves deep is the source? Going to that now.
EDIT: and looks like dwarves deep is the original resource for deepspawn? One particular thing I'm noting
The "spawn" have the natural attacks, including spell-like powers, alignment, and intelligence of their forebears, but class abilities and other learned skills are not gained. A spawn "grows" in 1d4 days (varying with size and complexity) in a Deepspawn, which must ingest meat, vegetable matter, and water or blood to fuel the birthing. The Deepspawn then splits open to emit a fully-active spawn.
I know this may be missing in later editions, but I think its important, and if it was left out it shouldn't be. To note, one could even conceivably take this as far as the idea that language is a learned skill. So, the idea of a recreating a trained fighter or sorcerer is out.
In regards trained mounts, etc... this should mean that a trained warhorse, pegasi, griffin spawn still needs to be trained.
In regards using a deepspawn to produce food because its wearing a ring of sustenance or somesuch.... I wouldn't think they could produce more food than the ring itself would conceivably produce for a "normal" being (even if that being is say a dragon)..... so in the end, I think this could be a good use for them... producing meat for the slaughter. The question then becomes, does this "stress" a ring of sustenance or the weave locally where this might be employed?
On the above as well, since my feel is to try and limit them as much as possible, sticking to the 1d4 days no matter WHAT is being created..... and it might be good to have a rule of thumb that the "spawn time" depends on the size of the creature (i.e. one size smaller than the deepspawn is 3 days, 2 sizes smaller is 2 days, 3 sizes smaller or less is a single day), but adding in factors like a higher CR might also make it take longer (i.e. CR 3 or higher might add an additional day). Thus, in 3.5e a large creature without a high CR would be 3 days for a standard deepspawn (since a base one is size huge). |
| redking |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 12:06:00
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
"Remember that dwarves are often greedy?" What does being greedy have to do with being evil? The two descriptors can be completely independent just as easily as they can coexist. Feeding people to a monster is an evil act. What comes out may look and act like those devoured people, but this facsimile isn't them. Worse, the beings coming out are slaves without essential free will. Abuse, murder, and domination are not the components of greed nor can those things be explained by "oh, he was just greedy." And if it were so hard for dwarves to pass up, then why aren't DSCVs a standard for all the dwarf kingdoms?
Since I do not know for certain, I am agnostic on whether deepspawn get templates from clones from a part of a creature or the whole creature. It is possible that deepspawn were fed the dead of the enemy and not living beings. I don't think that's more evil that killing them in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Dead bodies or mortally wounded beings are beneficial materials for creating spawn, and not new templates for other spawn.
That is supposition without even inference. If the writers of the deepspawn entry meant something that specific they would have spelled it out.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
It may be my reading that informs this picture of the deepspawn, but this comes off like Invasion of the Body Snatchers level of horror. The operators of a DSCV are like Seymour in Little Shop of Horrors feeding people they either don't like or whom have discovered their secrets to Audrey II. The people are alive and their last moments are spent in frenzied pain & fear while being devoured by the deepspawn.
Many of the DSCV schemes are probably evil. Even Thormil's DSCV producing high quality cattle for restaurant kitchens is probably evil. It depends on the implications of enslaving an evil, aberrant being and using it for your own purposes.
Technically speaking, you don't have to feed a deepspawn any sentient being if it already has cloning templates that you want. So you can just feed it regular food and reap the benefits. The enslavement of the deepspawn is an ethical/moral issue, but no more so than enslaving other sentients.
The dwarves no doubt have serf equivalent classes in their society which are little better than slaves. I doubt that these dwarves would feel bad about treating a deepspawn likewise.
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| SaMoCon |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 10:26:33
"Remember that dwarves are often greedy?" What does being greedy have to do with being evil? The two descriptors can be completely independent just as easily as they can coexist. Feeding people to a monster is an evil act. What comes out may look and act like those devoured people, but this facsimile isn't them. Worse, the beings coming out are slaves without essential free will. Abuse, murder, and domination are not the components of greed nor can those things be explained by "oh, he was just greedy." And if it were so hard for dwarves to pass up, then why aren't DSCVs a standard for all the dwarf kingdoms?
Just to put this back into the conversation, I copied the following from the Forgotten Realms wiki:quote:
For a deepspawn to give birth to other monsters, it first needed to devour one. It made an exact "record" of the creature and replicated the creature using ingredients from the surroundings. If the deepspawn could claim resources from the dead and dying on a battlefield, it could produce a new spawn every three days. Typically, it gathered materials from the wild and could only produce offspring at a much slower rate.
Ed Greenwood (September 2011). “Eye on the Realms: Thormil's Secret”. In Steve Winter ed. Dungeon #194 (Wizards of the Coast), pp. 28–30.
Those sentences I underlined struck me as changing the context for the meaning of "devour." Dead bodies or mortally wounded beings are beneficial materials for creating spawn, and not new templates for other spawn. The 3.x write-up of the deepspawn put special emphasis on the grappling attacks that lead into automatic bite damage from the grappling tentacle mouth, which leads me to believe that prey killed this way are what is meant by "devour," not just cadavers wheeled in during feeding time. The 3.x write-up from Monsters of Faerun (pg 33) also limited the spawn in terms of spawn only being creatures native to the setting that excludes all outsiders (even the halfsies like aasimars & tieflings), elementals, undead, and dual dimensional creatures. The update to deepspawn in Lost Empires of Faerun (pg 167-168) also implies a cap on spawn at CR6, but that may be to keep the encountered spawn within the CR of the listed stats printed for the deepspawn.
It may be my reading that informs this picture of the deepspawn, but this comes off like Invasion of the Body Snatchers level of horror. The operators of a DSCV are like Seymour in Little Shop of Horrors feeding people they either don't like or whom have discovered their secrets to Audrey II. The people are alive and their last moments are spent in frenzied pain & fear while being devoured by the deepspawn. |
| redking |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 07:00:54
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Mind you redking had a good story in that other thread with dwarves using deepspawn to replenish their race (I'd put that more on derro than dwarves though, as I don't see dwarves feeding their womenfolk to deepspawn to make more of them... its just immoral beyond belief in my view to dwarven ethics)
I speculated that deepspawn cloned dwarves mixed in with natural born dwarves, but dwarves using deepspawn to produce dwarves is 100% canon. It happened during the Spawn Wars in -9000 DR and probably at other times and places as well.
So at minimum the dwarves were feeding deepspawn dwarves for the purpose of cloning them to use in combat. Remember that dwarves are often greedy. The abilities of a deepspawn would be very hard to pass up. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 04:40:56
A great limiter on spawned creatures might be an inability to earn any XP. They are "snapshots" of the specimen which got eaten, maybe even an idealized or "perfect" specimen - but no more. An instant army might win a battle or a war, but they would never improve. A supply of clones into a diminished/dying racial stock might sustain population numbers for a while, but they and their progeny would never improve.
And of course there's another tricky detail: all of these spawned creatures are absolutely loyal to the Chaotic Evil genius-intellect patient and cunning deepspawn itself. They could turn at any instant. Perhaps they're cooperative only as long as needed to install numbers into a society. Perhaps they and their deepspawn might even prove entirely loyal and protective - but savvy survivors (like endlessly suspicious dwarves) could never, ever fully trust the deepspawn or the people/methods used to control it. |
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