| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ralf |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 18:31:36
Hey guys. I once had a Moonshae campaign, and though i didn't like what i did with this campaign of mine, i still think the Moonshaes are a cool place for adventuring. I'm starting this thread for us to share our experiences in this mist-cloaked part of the Realms. Anybody wanna share their adventures in it? |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 09:16:53
Tom,
Thank you for posting that! I will have to check that out. Is it lore-wise, effective only for 5e, or do you think it is good to go for 3.5 too?
Best regards,
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| cpthero2 |
Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 09:12:09
Master Rupert,
I hope this response finds you well good sir! I also hope my request for parley has been received well and accepted, but if not, I await your response.
quote:
How about the OGB itself? 'Earthmother, called only "the goddess" on the Moonshae Isles, who may or may not be an aspect of Chauntea.
Please find my comments, as always, meant in the vein of academic response, so if I feel a point is invalidated, it is only that point.
Unfortunately for your argument Master Rupert, the conjunction 'or', being designed to link alternative options in a choice based manner, means there is exactly 0% validity to the notion that the Earthmother is an aspect of Chauntea. This is because there is exactly an equal amount of chance that the Earthmother is and is not, an aspect of Chauntea. Therefore, that is a moot point, in accordance with the 'OGB.'
However you are ultimately correct that the Earthmother is an aspect of Chauntea, per the Faiths & Avatars, 2nd edition, pgs. (41, 45, 47, 48, 51, 90, 141), which I quote below for each instance:
quote:
This complicated evil ritual to magically veil moonwells was recently rediscovered and developed by certain priests of Bane. Moonwells are precious pools of clear water found in the Moonshae Isles sacred to the goddess Chauntea, known as the Goddess (or Earthmother) in the Moonshaes.
(F&A, p41)quote:
Bhaal suffered a series of reverses prior to the Time of Troubles, the most vital being his banishment from the Moonshaes. Bhaal tried to destroy the Earthmother (Chauntea) and seize the Moonshae Islands as his personal domain.
(F&A, p45)quote:
ALIASES: Earthmother (Moonshae), (Jannath, Pahluruk (among the peoples of the Great Glacier), Bhalla (Rashemen)
(F&A, p47)quote:
Chauntea has a special relationship with the people of the Moonshae Isles, a place which she has dedicated a portion of her being, known as Earthmother, to oversee specifically. Earthmother is a more primitive facet of Chauntea who is representative of the goddess’s nature in eons past and is much more wild and neutral in her outlook.
(F&A, p48)quote:
This spell was developed in ancient times by druids of the Earthmother on the Moonshae Isles as is a variant of the sunray spell. Long forgotten, it was rediscovered through the research efforts of the wizard Flamsterd and the druids of the Moonshaes following the destruction of the Risen Cult of Bane by a small company of Harpers several years after the Time of Troubles.
(F&A, p.51)quote:
The churches of Chauntea and Lathander have only grown closer since the Time of Troubles, and rumors hold that Lathander has been courting the favor of the Earthmother
romantically as well as politically.
(F&A, p90)quote:
Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who were yin and yang to each other; they were so close they thought of themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form the Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contracted her essence to encompass only Abeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all matter in Realmspace.)
quote:
This lesser power is venerated only on the Moonshae islands, and her clerics are all druids.'
Addressed above per Faiths and Avatar's, p51.
quote:
and 'She is often referred to as "the Earthmother." The words of the goddess are spread through her druids, humans who dwell among her wildest and most sacred places, dealing more directly with the earth itself than the humans who live upon it.'
Though you are correct, Master Rupert, I only pedantically make the point that "often referred to as" doesn't mean evidence that by itself would be compelling; however, the above cited sources irrefutably demonstrate the validity of your argument.
quote:
Also, it is canon in the Realms that all people worship gods and that all divine magic comes from gods. There is no getting magic by worshipping some nameless, unintelligent concept.
You are incorrect here, Master Rupert. Though I await your citation, I cite my own canon lore evidence that to the greatest degree of specificity, denies your position. The very philosophy known as the Adama has the following to provide corroboration that not only deities provide magic:
quote:
The philosophy of the Adama, or "the One", is a vital part of Durparian life. The Adama is the
world spirit that embraces and enfolds the divine essence that is part of all beings; gods, men, animals, plants, rocks, and all of their existence. Therefore everything is a manifestation of the Adama. Adama has no temples or priests in the common sense, for he is worshipped through his manifestations. (FR16 - Shining South, 1993, p59)
However, that quote just establishes the Adama as a philosophy. Here is the evidence that said philosophy is granted spells for the prestige class Hand of the Adama:
quote:
At each level, a hand of the Adama gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level.
Now, mayhaps, you could be of the mind Master Rupert that, "Ah ha! I've got you now. He had to have worshipped a single deity that granted him powers before he took the prestige class, which means it is that deity which is the Adama, in effect!" That's not a bad idea, except, that issue is addressed in the Faiths and Avatar's 2nd edition as well, on pages 2, 62, 131, 135. I quote that material below:
quote:
The philosophy of the Shining Lands of Durpar, Var the Golden, and Estagund sees all things in the world as connected and part of a single creation spirit, the Adama or the One; all the
many powers of the Realms are different aspects of the One
(p2)quote:
In Durpar, Estagund, and Var the Golden, Gond is worshiped as part of the Adama, the Durparian concept of a world spirit that embraces and enfolds the divine essence that is part of all beings. Here he is known as Zionil, patron of inventors, craftfolk, and creators.
(p62)quote:
In Durpar, Estagund, and Var the Golden, Oghma is worshiped as part of the Adama, the Durparian concept of a world spirit that embraces and enfolds the divine essence that is part of all beings. Here he is known as Curna, goddess of wisdom.
(p131)quote:
In Durpar, Estagund, and Var the Golden, Selûne is worshiped as part of the Adama
(p135)
In essence, since all deities are a part of the One, and people worship the Adama, that is why Gond, Selune, or Oghma, for example, are all aspects. They are just part of an idea, essentially.
Additionally, I address other possible refutations related to your original argumentative points: "nameless", "unintelligent concept."
Nothing in FR16 - Shining South or the 3rd edition Shining South stipulates that the One (or the Adama) is intelligent, nor does it say it is unintelligent. However, a philosophy is analytically speaking a concept, quote:
To a first approximation, concepts are constituents of thoughts or propositions in much the same way that words are constituents of the sentential complements by which thoughts or propositions are expressed.(Britannica, https://www.britannica.com/topic/philosophy-of-mind/Thoughts-and-attitudes#ref1052196
, and concepts themselves are not intelligent. They may be assigned a name for the manner in which human minds work for ordering, but they are not even named, beyond our need as people to do so. So, knowing that the Adama has a name for ease of relationship but without any known command as to such, and knowing that concepts are not intelligent themselves, there is no longer a valid argument insomuch as I can see that would lend credence to your point about "...all people worship gods and that all divine magic comes from gods."
Best regards,
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 22:15:17
-You could always have someone else granting spells in her name for whatever their reasons; we know it happens from time to time. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 16:22:53
Eric Menge did a very nice job with the 5E update of the Moonshaes on DM's Guild. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 15:45:20
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Ahh woolly, you do make visiting these halls a pleasure. I could go into a theoretical discussion about true names and how the sharing of magical power by gods may not be entirely consensual, but is a necessary part of becoming a true deity. However I feel that nothing would dissuade your furry wrath so instead I will not argue the point at all and merely ask you to prove me wrong.
If you can show me a priest of the earthmother before 1360s (after 1360s it is written that chauntea grants spells on behalf of the earthmother), then I will bow down to your superior wisdom and admit defeat.
Druids do not count as priests (although in some churches the priests of Silvanus and eldath are indistinguishable from druids, but there is no church of the earthmother that I'm aware of), and in at least two editions of the game the spells for druids come from a nature source and not divine and therefore not from a god.
How about the OGB itself? 'Earthmother, called only "the goddess" on the Moonshae Isles, who may or may not be an aspect of Chauntea. This lesser power is venerated only on the Moonshae islands, and her clerics are all druids.'
and 'She is often referred to as "the Earthmother." The words of the goddess are spread through her druids, humans who dwell among her wildest and most sacred places, dealing more directly with the earth itself than the humans who live upon it.'
Also, it is canon in the Realms that all people worship gods and that all divine magic comes from gods. There is no getting magic by worshipping some nameless, unintelligent concept. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 08:31:54
Ahh woolly, you do make visiting these halls a pleasure. I could go into a theoretical discussion about true names and how the sharing of magical power by gods may not be entirely consensual, but is a necessary part of becoming a true deity. However I feel that nothing would dissuade your furry wrath so instead I will not argue the point at all and merely ask you to prove me wrong.
If you can show me a priest of the earthmother before 1360s (after 1360s it is written that chauntea grants spells on behalf of the earthmother), then I will bow down to your superior wisdom and admit defeat.
Druids do not count as priests (although in some churches the priests of Silvanus and eldath are indistinguishable from druids, but there is no church of the earthmother that I'm aware of), and in at least two editions of the game the spells for druids come from a nature source and not divine and therefore not from a god. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 06:14:11
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Tharizdun and Shar both have nihilistic goals, and they grant spells, so that's not really far-fetched.
Yeah, but them giving spells is to give the deity more power to destroy everything. Daz's premise is that the Earthmother is actively aiding something that's infecting her so it can be destroyed. Destroyed by something that's going to rally armies and such while its imprisoned inside the entity it's there to protect.
Even if divine involvement was an issue in the existing story, this premise makes far less sense. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 05:04:38
Tharizdun and Shar both have nihilistic goals, and they grant spells, so that's not really far-fetched. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 20:53:14
So she helps humans by granting them spells and such, just so she can wipe them all out?  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 19:43:21
Well I've never adventured there myself but I began an ever expanding campaign guide of sorts and was working towards and epic adventure arc spanning several decades that would allow players to take part in the major events of the moonshae isles (kazgoroth, the darkwell, the appearance of grond peaksmasher, etc) but I removed all the gods and deus ex machina type stuff.
The final form of this idea is that the moonshae isles are quite literally the body of a titanic and smashed being known as the earthmother. She has been slumbering for tens of millennia and if she takes note of humanoids at all then they are an infestation to her. The Children are her immune system and kazgoroth is the greatest of them.
Kazgoroths goal is to force the humanoids into activating all the children, and then awaken the earthmother herself so that they can all be destroyed and he can escape his prison.
It is all a bit complicated, but hopefully makes logical and historical sense far more than the novels.
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