| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Palant |
Posted - 06 Aug 2020 : 14:02:14
Nobles of Waterdeep are always subject of discussions.
I have questions for which I not found answers in structured form so maybe Sages of Candlekeep could answer to them.
What priveleges nobles of Waterdeep have in comparison with non-nobles?
I remember only one (and can't find it's source) - that noble house can have armed guards (14? if I am not mistaken) but I still in doubt where I saw this fact.
Also as I remember nobles pay extra tax to city budget (it isn't privelege :-))
And only one another sign of priveleges is Code Legal.
What another priveleges Nobles of Waterdeep have?
I will be very thankful for answers and help.
Best regards, Anton. |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 15 Aug 2020 : 10:47:56
Palant, I don't think there is a canon answer that will satisfy your question because of something written inside of the City of Splendors box set, Book II, Pg 7. quote:
Precise details of the wealth and full activities of the noble families are deliberately excluded from this chapter, so each DM can involve such nobility in adventures as he or she sees fit, tailoring details to adventures and to the political situations in the city in his or her individual campaign.
In order to make the setting available to all interpretations of the setting being run in libraries and on kitchen tables of players around the world, the absolute minimum was made with the rest left up to the GMs. We know there are legal privileges because of another statement further up the same source page (see below), but what those are have been completely bypassed by the authors.
quote:
While the nobles are afforded quite a few privileges within the city by the Lords, they are expected, by the nature and the wealth of their station, to contribute to the general welfare of the city and its denizens.
I also found a new blurb of information that undercuts one of the earlier stated privileges of the nobility from City of Splendors box set, Book I, Pg 77. quote:
Any citizen of Waterdeep is allowed an appeal to the Lord's Court within two days of any sentencing by a Magister.
Back to Book II, Pg2.quote:
Given Waterdeep's size and the presence of a well-established nobility and a prosperous merchant class, many natives of the Realms believe that specific social classes have been established, each with rules and inherent superiorities. Instead of the fragmenting and distinct splits based on income or birth, Waterdeep has nullified such differences almost entirely.
Thank you for providing that link, Icelander, because it got me this quote from http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3684&whichpage=40 Posted - 21 May 2005 : 01:22:13
quote:
The Hooded One:
As for noble privileges: the only special treatment Waterdhavian nobles enjoy is legal status, which extends to everyone a particular family doesn’t disown (who identifies themself as a Waterdhavian noble).
The reason I keep hammering the point of legal privileges is because being a noble does not inherently get one money or connections.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=12 Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 03:21:54
quote:
The Hooded One:
Folks in Waterdeep respect money, not titles, so if you’re the visiting King of Hoola-Walla, that’s nice, bub, now pay up.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=13 Posted - 20 Mar 2004 : 18:51:56
quote:
The Hooded One:
In truth, they’re ALL jumped-up wealthy merchants, and some of them have even lost most of their wealth since being ennobled. It’s akin to two ancient, toothless old men living in adjacent tumbledown shacks in a real-world village, but one of them looking down on the other because “his family wasn’t originally from these parts.”
Since Waterdhavian nobility is a conferred ranking (neither being empowered so by a deity or won by dint of conquest) then everything that entails the meaning of that nobility is in such a decree. Does that decree include a sum of cash as a standard noble's starting purse? Does that decree include a list of new acquaintances whom are now obligated to meet with that noble upon request? No, the decree does not come with those things anymore so than it comes with properties in the affluent neighborhoods and servants bidding their new masters a welcome home. Money and favors do not require entitlement; and, even though ennobling initially does require the expenditure of both wealth & indulgences, it is likewise independent of these traits. An individual Waterdhavian noble house can lose either or both worldly wealth and all social/business connections without losing their noble status - such a house may be impotent to do anything beyond the direct capabilities of its individual members but they are still entitled Waterdhavians with legal status.
So what is it that Waterdhavian nobility, the ones in canon and the ones freshly minted at gaming tables, exclusively get for the effort needed to become a noble? I mean, just read the following example from an earlier link and ask yourself that question.
quote:
The Hooded One:
My records tell me that the Phull and Zulpair families were the last to be ennobled, and they seem to have managed it by identical methods:
1. Succeed at trade enough to be staggeringly wealthy.
2. Buy up huge amounts of real estate in Waterdeep, especially in North Ward and Sea Ward.
3. Attend all the revels, actingly[sic] in a quiet, toady-like, subservient manner, and offer money to help with ‘problems’ discussed by grumbling nobles at said functions (as GIFTS and NOT loans).
4. VERY quietly loan monies to desperate noble houses.
5. Financially bail out/further the stated aims of a few Masked Lords (“cleaning up” firetrap warehouses in Dock Ward, having the sewers fixed, the harbor dredged, the city walls expanded and repaired, allowing the Lords to take credit rather than yourself.
6. Tell everyone, over and over again at revels (which you now attend dressing and speaking just as much like ‘real nobles’), that you care deeply for “the good of Waterdeep” and “we must all think of the good of Waterdeep, so that it will be as great as it is now a thousand years hence.”
7. When desperate noble houses discreetly approach you for even more money than you’ve given them before [in Step 4], willingly hand them more, and say, “This should be a gift, not a loan, but not being noble myself, I can’t insult you like that. If we were both nobles, hey, all you’d have to do would be hint at the need, and this would always be just a gift.”
8. Start marrying your daughters (made as beautiful as magic can make them, and trained in noble speech and deportment as well as money to pay retired or fired servants can achieve) into noble houses, and accompany them with staggeringly large dowries.
9. Hire spies to find out who just one or two Masked Lords are, and befriend them, financially helping their businesses.
10. Bribe some of the disaffected young wastrel nobles to verbally champion your family at revels as “acting like nobles should.”
11. Bribe some servants, ditto [do both 10 and 11 through intermediaries, of course].
12. Bankroll some young, disaffected nobles to pursue their dreams, however foolish or zany such schemes may be. Befriend THEM. 13. Watch for financial troubles among the nobles and try to repeat Step 4, aiming for a repeat of Step 7.
And, all this time, DON’T build a luxury villa of your own, DON’T openly challenge any noble, and NEVER openly ask to be a noble or pretend to be one. Eventually, someone facing ruin will remember your Step 7 and start whispering that you should be ennobled. DO NOTHING (unless you can get real control over a few Masked Lords, and add their voices to the whispering). Let it happen.
As you can see, this takes KINGDOMS full of money... and GENERATIONS of time, plus NOT MAKING A SINGLE MISTAKE... It worked for the Phulls and the Zulpairs (who have been scorned by many nobles ever since) because they practically bought up all of North Ward between them -- and then GAVE IT AWAY, property by property, to various nobles in winning their support for ennobling House Phull and House Zulpair.
So... we have unlisted powers for Waterdhavian nobility in the aforementioned "quite a few privileges within the city," but nothing that seems to impact the code of crimes & justice outside of capital convictions resulting in commoners being hung from the castle walls and nobles being beheaded. There also might be some tax jiggering, again with a dearth of information that prevents any objective look at the whole picture to see if there is any difference between nobles & commoners. There is something that Waterdhavian nobility possesses which is not attainable by guild masters, wealthy merchants, prosperous landlords, successful adventurers, famous artisans, and others whom flood into Waterdeep and spend prodigious amounts of coin while forging bonds throughout all strata of the city's society. Unfortunately for this discussion, what that is has been left up to the individual game masters by the FR source books. |
| Palant |
Posted - 12 Aug 2020 : 00:16:23
Why I wanted know about priveleges?
I know that to become noble of Waterdeep is very hard. But why any family wants to be waterdhavian nobles - not just nobles from Secomber or Scornubel? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 11 Aug 2020 : 19:55:33
I assumed that you knew where to find the So Saith Ed archives at Candlekeep and it's a bother to insert hyperlinks when writing on a tablet. It's not collated on these forums, it's collected between 2004-2016 on the wider Candlekeep site.
And why do you insist that explicitly written legal privileges are the only ones that matter? Nobles control most of the wealth, access and networks of connections in Waterdeep. They don't have the blatant legal privileges of nobles in backwater baronies, no, but that's because Waterdeep is a merchant oligopoly with a thin veneer of social mobility, not a feudal realm. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 11 Aug 2020 : 17:18:03
So... not well known to people who play the game from store bought game books & box sets (Forgotten Realms Campaign Set, City of Splendors box set, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, City of Splendors: Waterdeep, Volo's Guide to the North, Waterdeep and the North, and The Ruins of Undermountain box set) starting from the 1980's nor look anywhere but at specific posts to archived threads of this forum. And you said that the information is neatly collated in this forum but don't give a link to it. Got it, never going to ask you again especially after I just said that the search function was giving me threads instead of posts making it a virtual needle in a haystack, thank you very much.
As far as ease of property sales, that has nothing to do with legal privileges. If a noble land owner decides to sell a parcel of land to an adventurer for money in the ever so posh Sea Ward, there's nothing the other nobles can do to stop this as a legal transaction. The aforementioned practice of using a "noble agent" either means that this agent deceives the seller into thinking the agent was buying the land instead of the party commissioning that agent or that the agent convinces the noble to sell to a non-noble - either proves that there is no restriction on the hoi polloi owning property amongst the hoi oligoi. The fact that an insular, exclusionary identity group may withhold properties they own from those outside their group has nothing to do with a legal privilege. Poor minorities in a poor minority neighborhood who resist selling their properties to affluent members of the majority and call upon their neighbors to likewise only sell to other minorities like them are by no stretch of the imagination "privileged." And then there is the matter of properties in those elite sections of the city that are not owned by nobles - the only reason they would have to not consider bids by non-nobility is if the insular, exclusionary nobles offered a greater price (if not in cash then compensation in kind of the earlier mentioned social influences, professional references, and transferable assets).
A withholding is not the same as a barring by privilege because the latter has weaponry with civil authority by their wielders to force compliance. Snubbing & ostracization also fall under the reindeer games that are not legal privileges because of the lack of civil officers hauling the individuals isolated by this form of bullying off to jail for failing to be properly cowed. Privileges can be easily summarized using the words "must" and/or "shall" backed by gendarmerie & magistrates whereas the words "may" or "could" (and its relatives "would" & "should") that doesn't provoke a response by the city watch speaks to something less absolute than entitled privilege. Can a Waterdhavian noble have a commoner severely beaten with impunity for not giving respect as the noble walked by? Can this same noble expect a business to be forcibly shuttered if he is dissatisfied with the service received? Can a noble order a non-noble to sell his property to the noble simply because the noble wishes to possess it regardless of the non-noble's intent to retain ownership? If these examples or other similar empowering actions can be done by dint of being ennobled then they are privileges of rank; otherwise, the power comes from something any commoner can possess - money, friends in the right places, assets, etc...
All in all, what we have so far for what Waterdhavian nobles get reads like the 2020 Season THE FLASH Pass for Six Flags theme parks. They get to feel special for holding a title. They get to divert some of their taxes into city civic projects. They get head of the line privileges to speak to the Open Lord. They get the choice of having a legal case heard by the Lords of Waterdeep. They get to request judicial review by a magistrate for disputes involving the guilds. They are able to retain 4-5 times as many bully boys for protection. They may display heraldry.
I would home-brew rules to give the nobility better privileges that would make my players envy the titled class such as: A noble has the right to request a member of the Gray Hands to escort them discreetly to a location in the Dock Ward, South Ward, or Trade Ward for a small fee. A City Watch patrol shall take a self-identified noble to the local guard house upon request where one messenger is provided free of charge. Carriages flying banners of the nobles' colors with a trumpeter bugling loudly at the fore have right of way at full speed on the large roads bordering Castle & Sea Wards during daylight hours. Any member of a noble household (from the servant pageboy to the ruling elder) challenged to a lawful duel may have a champion designated of noble house's choosing accept the challenge. A person of a noble household accused of any wrongdoing less than a first pliant Crime Against the Lords shall be remanded into the house's custody from the City Watch upon a noble's word bond. A vacancy must be made available at any inn, non-guild business, entertainment hall, or school for which a noble proves to have met the minimum requirements to attend. All Waterdhavian public institution employees (civil servants, city watch, soldiery, and magistrates) shall address an identified noble with the appropriate "My Lord" or "My Lady" prefix or be docked a day's wage. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 10 Aug 2020 : 10:03:12
The Hooded One is one of Ed Greenwood's players and the one who relayed his Realmslore to these halls for decades.
'Steve' would be Steven Schend.
Of necessity, game supplements are rather short and often include more in the vein of rules and stats than lore. Novels, by Ed Greenwood, Steven Schend and others, can afford to delve more deeply into day-to-day life in Waterdeep.
Not to mention that Ed Greenwood has answered questions about the Realms and Waterdeep for many, many years. Most of the earlier answers are collated here in these halls, for easier searching. I'm sure you'll find no lack of discussion of Waterdeep nobility. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 10 Aug 2020 : 09:10:19
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The fact that people who aren't nobles in Waterdeep face manyfold difficulties trying to buy real estate in prestigious Wards or engage in certain types of business there without a local noble agent is well known...
"Well known," how? Where from? What books? Wherever these sources are may have the answers the OP was asking for regarding the noble privileges. I've read through my Volo's Guides, the FRCS, and the City of Splendors without much success. I've drawn blanks on internet searches for the last couple days scouring wikis from oakthorne.net, realmshelps.net, forgottenrealms.fandom.com, and even did wayback-machine dives for the old nj-pbem fanon pages to find any relevant information with nothing to show for my efforts. So, please, anybody, where is this from? Is this a printed canon source or is this speculation on some pricing guide that "Steve" made that may or may not be focused on Suzail in Cormyr?
I tried to repeat Icelander's search limiting to posts by The Hooded One and "property" but it just gave me a list of threads, Questions for Ed Greenwood by year for 2004-2015 averaging around 80 pages each, instead of showing me a list of THO's posts. I recall this forum's search function being able to show results with a toggle for posts or threads before but I do not seem to have such an option now. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 10 Aug 2020 : 01:22:51
The fact that people who aren't nobles in Waterdeep face manyfold difficulties trying to buy real estate in prestigious Wards or engage in certain types of business there without a local noble agent is well known.
Here's the first thing a search of these halls turned up:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Two factors to note, here: in Waterdeep, "anyone" can buy land in Dock Ward. There're no social implications. In Sea Ward and the more westerly parts of North Ward, non-nobles are going to have a VERY hard time buying in (as opposed to renting). That puts the competition (bidding) to Dock Ward and South Ward, and artificially depresses the market price of properties in Sea Ward, in particular (a given noble might sell if he needed the money, but would charge a lower price to a noble buyer, and a much higher price to a non-noble; Steven's prices assume a non-noble buyer is operating through a young noble acting as agent (said noble will take a stiff commission, of course).
And prices in Suzail are pushed up for the factors Steven gives, exascerbated by the firmer control the Crown has kept over building (less crowding, buildings "bridging" over streets, cellars expanded out under streets, and so on) as compared to Waterdeep's Dock Ward.
It follows that at the lower end of the wealth scale, many folks rent or long-term lease (think of the 99-year leases "leasehold" versus "freehold" real-world system found in, say, London, England).
And finally, the pricing system is a GUIDELINE, and can "fade" from covering the specifics of a given situation. For one thing, it's always easier to buy a Waterdhavian building in the depths of a hard winter, as opposed to the height of a crowded-city summer.
love to all,
THO
|
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 10 Aug 2020 : 00:42:30
Except, Waterdeep is an oligarchy that is almost wholly uncontrolled by their local nobility. The merchant guilds hold most of the power in the city, and what power the nobility has seems less connected to their titles than their economic status as merchant-princes; although, this is unsurprising considering how the Waterdhavian nobility came about in the first place.
I'm curious from where "commoners or foreigners are prohibited from owning property in certain Wards," "wealthy foreigners or commoners who wish to do many kinds of business in Waterdeep discover that they more or less require a local noble partner," and "courts and magistrates do not treat commoners or foreign claimants to outlandish titles as they would treat Waterhavian nobles" come in your assertions of Waterdeep's nobility because I am not finding it in my, albeit dated 2e & 3e, source books. As for that last point about the courts and magisters being preferential, Ed seems to indicate otherwise in Palant's post since the nobles can ask for a non-judicial review that moves the matter away from the magisters; however, the Lords of Waterdeep are not in the nobility's pocket with a membership described as "meritocratic" and coming from "all walks of life," and of the more than 50 detailed members I was able to find only 3 whom were ennobled (I found 4 crime bosses & criminals by comparison). Really, if there is a difference in justice it lay in the ability to pay the fines in lieu of the penalties ("I sentence you to pay restitution of 100 gold coins or be imprisoned for 1 month of hard labor." "Your honor, I'll take the fine, please! To whom should my purser deliver the payment?"). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 22:42:44
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
The Realms are depressingly like the modern RW. A smattering of monarchies, a few "strongman" states, and wild-west Capitalism for the rest.
Well, there is very little of the egalitarian philosophy that underlay the French and American Revolutions in our world. Nobles in Faerun might not belong to feudal systems in most of the economically advanced polities, but as a class, the aristocracy is hugely socially influential and, in most places, in control of most of the wealth.
It's true that Faerunian noble families are more like the great merchant-prince families of the Italian states than the feudal lords of England or France, but that doesn't mean that noble birth is not a massive advantage, in business, at law and in all other spheres of endevour. After all, the nobles, who control most of the wealth, are very much a closed club in many places. Commoners or foreign nobles, no matter how rich, don't have the same contacts, don't get the same preferential treatment and don't have access to the same sources of credit.
In Waterdeep, specifically, commoners or foreigners are prohibited from owning property in certain Wards. Indeed, wealthy foreigners or commoners who wish to do many kinds of business in Waterdeep discover that they more or less require a local noble partner, in order to gain access to the markets and considered for contracts. And, obviously, courts and magistrates do not treat commoners or foreign claimants to outlandish titles as they would treat Waterhavian nobles. The word of a true noble is good over the prattling of lesser men.
The nobility of Waterdeep don't need feudal rights and obligations to ensure their position. They are the oligarchs of a vast mercantile empire and though their soft power might not impress a medieval Baron of England, it would be perfectly comprehensible to a Renaissance Doge of Venice. |
| ElfBane |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 20:05:07
The Realms are depressingly like the modern RW. A smattering of monarchies, a few "strongman" states, and wild-west Capitalism for the rest. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 17:00:09
Comparing to modern day, where we like it or not, we do have a society of haves and have nots. I find myself to be in the middle ground of all this, but I know people living hand to mouth, and I know people who literally seem to have no grasp on reality for how much people earn (these same people though may carefully scrutinize expenditures and track things well, they just don't seem to grasp that they earn 6 times what someone else does, so I'm not calling them lazy), etc... I don't want to debate why that is, but I'll point out that some of the things that are done is "branding". Media is used to make someone well known. Once they are well known, they endorse products. The famous sell products and they are seen as beneficial to society by some people. The cost of advertising is astronomical (so we are lead to believe), and yet its done, and in the end THAT oftentimes is what makes people products sell, because when someone see Joe Bob's cleaning powder and they see Crownsilver cleaning powder..... they don't think that the Crownsilvers are selling them some fake garbage that literally doesn't work (to use a term from yesteryear "snake oil salesman"). Some businesses may seek out the Crownsilvers just to get to use their name (and the Crownsilvers might be careful about who they LET use their name). Trust is a commodity to a a degree, and having your government display a level of trust in a family to "keep the city going" can encourage others to display this same trust. In truth, a lot of people in the world just don't "keep up" with the daily news and are just happy to have a simple path to follow if they're told what to do, because they're too busy to spend a lot of time researching things and they want to spend time with their families, etc...
That's one possible take anyway. I'm not saying I'm right, but maybe it helps us work out some theories. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 13:46:16
quote:
Very few of the kingdoms in the Realms are feudal...
Fair enough. While I am curious as to why you think economic conditions cause feudalism as opposed to long-term lack of security or regional collapse of authority, that is neither here nor there to the conversation of nobility.
But what makes a noble a noble? The aristocracy IRL always had special legal rights & legal privileges to which no commoner without entitlement could aspire. The FR is perplexingly devoid of this. Point of fact, a regional noble may be disrespected & harassed with impunity by commoners according to some of the source material of the FR. The FR is also remarkably egalitarian & free of all types of bondage except for limited examples of "evil" nations and isolated ne'er-do-well barons. So why would any society harbor or brook nobles and hereditary entitlement? An enfranchised nobility is a blatant acknowledgement that there are greater & lesser people within what is demonstrably a homogeneous group.
From what does this nobility concept even originate in the FR if not the promise of obeying a wielder of power for the promise of protection? The FR is so full of threats beyond the scope & scale from which Bill the Farmer or Bella the Alewife could hope to defend themselves that this should have been the logical default. This default does not seem to have happened. Instead, the nobility was apparently created by self-proclamation and seemingly allowed to exist by an indifferent citizenry. PLEASE NOTE: I am not talking about sovereigns (kings, emperors, dictators, autocrats, etc...) that head national governments but the nobility betwixt the nation & the citizen.
Waterdeep has a system for buying peerage. The history of it is explained in City of Splendors pg59 as a desperate act to bring in wealth during its fledgling years and attract trade from distant lands. But what does that entitlement mean? Is it just the equivalent of the modern day Kentucky Colonel? The sourcebook I cited seems to indicate so aside from the powers of being legally allowed to display your heraldry and to employ up to 5 times as many brutes as any one other citizen for the low, low price of annual income taxes that regular citizens do not have to pay. I fail to see a benefit for such a large expenditure and perennial burden. There is certainly no nobility requirement to be one of the Lords of Waterdeep.
Very little of what I have and what I can find from canon sources governs the powers & privileges of the nobility. Cormyr has a law that states that people should bow their heads to the nobility. Mulhorand states that the nobility caste occupies all leadership positions in the clergy & government. Tethyr ties peerage to land ownership. Ulgarth has the most extensive write-up I have seen for noble powers and even that is still sparse. There is not one example of guidance I found for how to even create the framework for interactions with the nobility and how gameplay would change if a player has a character in/promoted to the entitled nobility. Credit goes to Palant for prodding a response on this subject that adds a little more detail for Waterdhavian peerage.
Let's compare this dearth of information with what Wikipedia tells us about the privileges & prohibitions of 15th century French nobles. The summary list includes the right to hunt, to wear a sword, to possess land in which certain feudal rights and dues were attached, and an exemption from paying the taille (a tax paid only by commoners). Furthermore, certain ecclesiastic, civic, and military positions were reserved for nobles. Nobles could levy an annual tax on lands leased or held by vassals; lease the right to use the lord's mills, ovens, or wine presses; demand a portion of vassals' harvests in return for permission to farm land he owned; and maintain certain judicial rights over their vassals, although many of these privileges later passed to state control, leaving rural nobility with only local police functions and judicial control over violation of their seigneurial rights. However, the nobles also had responsibilities to honor, serve, & advise the king and render military service. The nobles were also forbidden from commercial & manual activities such as tilling the land that would result in forfeiture or loss of nobility for the offense. This loss could be recovered by suspending the forbidden activity and obtaining a letter of relief.
On a side note to Icelander - be careful when you imply that the Renaissance changed class-based societies for the better because the Renaissance in central and eastern Europe actually solidified and exacerbated the nobility/serfdom abuses, class distinctions, & legal discrepancies between the classes that lasted into the 18th & 19th centuries. Similarly, there were many sons of nobility that went to all conflicts up to World War I in the privileged positions of military officers illustrating that warrior aristocrats survived into the 20th century. National army & navy leadership positions were often the exclusive domains of the aristocracy for most European militaries all the way into WWI. Post-Renaissance nobles still trained in martial skills as much for honor duels as it was for warfare in the intervening centuries since the enlightenment, and they did act with deadly intent upon anything that challenged their "rightful place" in the world.
Also, Cormyr has a history that says otherwise and the 15th century DR Cormyr is apparently a constitutional monarchy with a council providing a check upon the queen's power. *shrug* I wasn't really interested in 4e or 5e FR so that was a bit of news to me as well. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 12:40:38
The original question is a really good one, and actually perhaps something that could be asked in our own modern world. Why do people stay in high tax places where they are footing all of the bills? Meanwhile, malcontents who don't donate a dime to the coffers complain that "the nobles get it all". It might literally come down to "if you aren't in the club, you aren't kept in the know, and if you aren't in the know, you get cut out of the big earnings". You pay a large amount of taxes, but you need X law to be considered so that you can sell your Q product... well, you have the ear of the tax collector's bosses. You tell them you may just pack up and move to Tethyr "where they really know how to treat a noble" AND you already have a portion of your family there AS nobles.… hmmmm, give them what they want. A lot of the Waterdhavian nobility are not just nobles in Waterdeep mind you. You will find Roaringhorns in Waterdeep, Cormyr, Baldur's Gate, etc... canonically, and yet this noble family is shown as run down, etc... in Waterdeep, but they still are treated as nobility. I've heard a lot of other noble names used throughout the realms in various city states, and while that could just be a matter o a common last name like Smith, maybe it implies that families with power run more of the realms than the local magistrates (its just the magistrates have to juggle keeping their local economy working whist keeping various nobles happy).
As I see it, many of these glorified noble's parties are just meet and greet business meetings where they use the venue to isolate themselves and discuss things behind closed doors without having to bring in the entirety of a guild or somesuch. They can then actually possibly invite the heads of the guild of X and lavish them with "you got to come to a noble party and hear things", and then those people leave and push whatever policy was dictacted to them down the guild ladder. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 12:37:27
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Cormyr tends to have more of a feudal aspect.
Absolutely not. Cormyrean nobles do not hold their own fiefs, raise their own armies, have the right of justice within their lands or any other charcteristic of a feudal system. Nor are there serfs or even peasants working the land of a noble.
Cormyr is an absolute monarchy with the kind of strong, centralized authority that no feudal realm can have. Its nobles have aristocratic titles and social cachet, but if they wish to command armies, rule territory or administer justice, they must be appointed to posts under the King, in the centralized government. This is not feudal, this is exactly the same system as in modern Great Britain, after it stopped having any feudal elements, only retaining the titles. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 12:24:29
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Very few of the kingdoms in the Realms are feudal. Oh, sure, some of the frontier lands, Border Kingdoms and various poor and savage places are, but Cormyr, Waterdeep or other powerful and rich polities of Faerun aren't.
Why would they be? These wealthy trading powers of Faerun do not have anything close to the economic conditions which produced feudalism. International trade, shipping, travel, the money supply and the centralized power of the state are all at levels far ahead of Earth during anything which could be called medieval.
Nobles in the Realms don't represent an exclusive warrior aristocracy, like feudal knights and nobility, in the harsh and post-apocalyptic world of medieval Earth. Nobles in Cormyr or Waterdeep are an aristocracy of wealth, status and connections, like Renaissance nobles.
Cormyr tends to have more of a feudal aspect. Same with Tethyr. Same with Impiltur and Damara. The old empires isn't "feudal" per se, but it also has a definitive difference between nobility and commoner (Chessenta being almost like maybe a hybrid of feudal and elsewhere, but nobles controlling/holding a lot of the land, even if there's usually no one kingly power). Beyond those though, I tend to agree with you. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 11:46:27
My impression is, by pure accident or historical knowledge, the Waterdeep nobility is Protestant (all D&D is from P dominated countries), merchantile (as we are), and therefore, equal to the Hanseatic League.
My thought is, the answer lies in one word, only: "Power".
The Nobility of Waterdeep, is, the powers in that city. The fact people can rise to that status, and join it, appeal to our sensibility, and that certain characters, as, Mirt, seems not to be "blue blood" but equal to the mightiest of them. |
| Palant |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 11:16:39
Ed answers to me on Twitter, so I post his answers for future searches.
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1292323551811436544
It’s mainly a matter of prestige/fawning treatment, but…when charged with a crime, trial by a jury of Masked Lords (or, at the noble’s request, ALL of the available Masked Lords) rather than by a magister (and in practice but not formally, almost all sentences being transformed into fines of varying amounts rather than any harsher on-the-books penalties); certain tax deferrals in return for specific investments in civic works programs; front-of-the-line for personal, private audiences with the Open Lord save in times of war or dire emergency; appeal to the Masked Lords for judgment in disputes with guilds; and some additional powers that are still NDA, I’m afraid. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 00:47:52
Very few of the kingdoms in the Realms are feudal. Oh, sure, some of the frontier lands, Border Kingdoms and various poor and savage places are, but Cormyr, Waterdeep or other powerful and rich polities of Faerun aren't.
Why would they be? These wealthy trading powers of Faerun do not have anything close to the economic conditions which produced feudalism. International trade, shipping, travel, the money supply and the centralized power of the state are all at levels far ahead of Earth during anything which could be called medieval.
Nobles in the Realms don't represent an exclusive warrior aristocracy, like feudal knights and nobility, in the harsh and post-apocalyptic world of medieval Earth. Nobles in Cormyr or Waterdeep are an aristocracy of wealth, status and connections, like Renaissance nobles. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 09 Aug 2020 : 00:34:34
City of Splendors pg59 says that the nobility are allowed to bear arms and maintain private armies of up to 70 men-at-arms (non-nobles are restricted to a maximum of 16 warriors by Lords' edict). The nobility are allowed to display heraldric devices (coat of arms, banners, color standards, etc...); however, it is not clear from the text how such a rule is enforced and to what limitations there are for such displays by non-nobles. There is also an established practice of successor inheritance that consolidates the orderly transference of wealth from deceased to survivors intact without takings by the state or the chaos brought by other claimants seeking part or all of the estate.
All in all, there is very little legal difference between a gutter bum and a noble in Waterdeep. But that is true of the Forgotten Realms across its swath of fictionalized feudal cultures. This was always a "head-scratcher" for me since it flew in the face of IRL feudal societies and centuries of class-based practices. And what is the right of bearing arms mean in the FR where everyone is allowed to bear arms?
Compare that with the this excerpt from Weebly.com.quote:
In terms of the feudal system social hierarchy, the nobles or barons were the second wealthiest and the most powerful after the king in the chain. The nobles were awarded or leased land, called fiefs or fiefdoms... They were obligated to supply a certain number of knights for the king... usually depend(ing) on the size of the fief. Within their own fiefdoms, lords were the absolute authority. They established and administered their own legal systems, gathered taxes, designed their own currency and managed how crops were grown... The daily life of a lord consisted of attending meetings in relation to his land. The lord was expected to exercise his judicial powers over the people of the land; they would hear reports on crops, harvests, supplies, and finances, such as taxes and rent. The lord would handle disputes among tenants. Whether a subject could marry or whom they could marry was also decided by the lord.
Contrast that with the peasantry & serfdom from the same sorce.quote:
At the bottom of the feudal system social hierarchy are the peasants and the serfs. They were the poorest and had an extremely hard and difficult lifestyle... The responsibility of peasants was to farm the land and provide food supplies to the whole kingdom. In return of land they were either required to serve the knight or pay rent for the land. They had no rights and they were also not allowed to marry without the permission of their Lords... Below the peasants were menial workers called serfs. Although a serf had some freedoms, they were close to being slaves... Serfs belonged to the estates and in which they were born and were totally dependent upon their lords. Lords did not simply give away their serfs; if a serf was to marry a serf from another manor, the lord usually demanded payment for his loss... The serf was also required to give payments, on top of the payments of crops the lord already receives at harvest time, at special times of the year... When a serf died, his son had to make a payment to the lord of the manor.
By comparison, the FR has very little for a noble to hang his hat on in the way of legal rights and protections over that of the commoner. |
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