| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Cavalier |
Posted - 13 Jun 2020 : 16:39:01
Hi all,
Currently running my players through the Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and I thought I'd spice it up by throwing Manshoon into the mix. My main idea is that this is post-Dragon Heist, and Manshoon has plans to take over Undermountain. Basically, what I'm asking for is advice on how to roleplay Manshoon, as well as any sources that can provide me with information on his character. I've read through Spellfire and Crown of Fire, as well as his short story in Realms of Infamy, and have looked over his character in Dragon Heist. Also, any advice on how to insert Manshoon into Dungeon of the Mad Mage is also appreciated. Thanks! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Vinzor Burrow |
Posted - 16 Apr 2023 : 17:42:37
He's a micromanager who leads from behind. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 26 Mar 2023 : 07:03:19
On a serious level, I'd give Manshoon the following qualities:
1. He's cold blooded
2. He's not going to betray the PCs if they make a deal - he's not as honorable as Fzoul (who is a man of his word even if he's a monster). But he's someone who became the Merchant King of Wizards because he generally abides by the deals he makes.
3. He's erudite, calm, and practical
4. He's as likely to ally with the PCs against the Thayans and other evil factions as fight the good guys. After all, only one man can rule the world.
5. He's the kind of guy who should have a Shakesperian gravitas. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 13 Aug 2022 : 23:03:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think it's more likely he has some item that allows him to do the sunlight routine, at least for a short time.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There's actually an answer in Libris Mortis. Liquid Night is a potion that protects daylight-sensitive undead from the sun's effects for an hour.
There's already a spell in AD&D2 era close enough to work as a benchmark: Gloom from Cult of the Dragon:
quote:
Gloom (Wiz 4; Alteration)
Range: 60 yards+10 yards/level
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 4
Duration: 1 turn/level
Area of Effect: 120-foot radius
Saving Throw: None
This spell weakens light sources of any kind in the area of effect. Light equal to daylight in brightness or intensity (including continual light) is reduced to a deep twilight gloom. Torches and magical weapons illuminate only a 5-foot radius, and lamps, lanterns, and other magical light sources illuminate only a 10-foot radius. The spell covers a 120-foot radius and can be made mobile if cast on an object.
Light-based combat penalties for creatures of darkness are negated within the area of effect, and monsters that cannot abide the touch of daylight (vampires, for instance) are fully capable of acting under the veil of gloom. Light-based spells and combat effects are halved in effect when conducted under the effects of gloom; for example, a sunburst from a wand of illumination is reduced from 6d6 points of damage to 3d6 points of damage against undead.
The material component for this spell is a special incense prepared by the caster.
After fighting dragon cultists Manshoon probably should have it... and if this instance of him doesn't, at least he knows whom he would have to mug for it.
It's a good start for R&D, and since all that's needed is to reduce range/AoE to personal/caster, the result would be of a lower level. Unless he bumps it with greater duration and/or extra functionality.
I'd eyeball it as necessary minimum of Wiz 3 or even 4 for the effect of this strength (it's definitely more than what L2 Mist Magic does to fire effects).
So, -1 for ranged -> touch and -1 for AoE reduced, +1 for turns -> hours, +1 for M component of moderate cost -> trivial and cheap (a pinch of soot or a piece of obsidian?), and we are back on Wiz 4. |
| King Libertine |
Posted - 12 Jun 2022 : 07:34:16
which Manshoon? Vampire? Undermountain? Far east Manshoon?
Any Manshoon should be played by a DM as a ruthless, unforgivable, masterful leader with a sardonic disposition. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 15 May 2022 : 19:07:53
In 3/3.5E time (1372ish and onward) the Night Masks were developing and testing the Night's Mantle spell, which would protect the recipient from any harmful effects of exposure to sunlight. This is detailed in the 3/3.5E Lords of Darkness supplement. |
| Balmar Foghaven |
Posted - 15 May 2022 : 17:55:55
I vaguely recall Vampshoon owning an item referred to as the bloodmask of Manshoon, which I believe allowed him to walk in daylight. It may have been in a 4e supplement. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 15 May 2022 : 04:11:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Van Richten gave us the concept of vampires getting more powerful, with age, and gaining the ability to withstand sunlight.
Not sure Vampshoon has been around long enough for that, though. Given his access to magical goodies, and his own not-inconsiderable spellcasting, I think it's more likely he has some item that allows him to do the sunlight routine, at least for a short time.
There's actually an answer in Libris Mortis. Liquid Night is a potion that protects daylight-sensitive undead from the sun's effects for an hour. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 May 2022 : 23:14:18
Van Richten gave us the concept of vampires getting more powerful, with age, and gaining the ability to withstand sunlight.
Not sure Vampshoon has been around long enough for that, though. Given his access to magical goodies, and his own not-inconsiderable spellcasting, I think it's more likely he has some item that allows him to do the sunlight routine, at least for a short time. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 May 2022 : 21:00:56
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ed has stated that the vampire Manshoon is a "special" vampire. It can cope with sunlight.
-- George Krashos
He got a daylight ring formerly worn by Damon Salvatore that was created by the Bennett Witches. It was hidden in a box of cracker jacks that somehow crossed the planar boundaries to Toril.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 May 2022 : 10:21:03
Ed has stated that the vampire Manshoon is a "special" vampire. It can cope with sunlight.
-- George Krashos |
| Diffan |
Posted - 10 May 2022 : 00:35:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
CR and vampire in the same sentence...interesting...
Wouldn't Manshoon be a....CE Vampire?
 |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 09 May 2022 : 21:33:57
CR and vampire in the same sentence...interesting... |
| King Libertine |
Posted - 09 May 2022 : 08:17:09
OMG, what a great thing to ponder. If I played Manshoon, I would go Vampire Manshoon and limit myself to night time activity. As a Vampire Lord, Manshoon would be a CR 28. I could rock that npc as a dm. We all sleep, he just does it during the day. lol
If I am not wrong, the vampire lord Manshoon was in the novel "The Hearald" |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 04 Apr 2022 : 09:42:14
I always stated that I ran Manshoon and Fzoul as Cobra Commander and Destro but they both think they're Destro and they're both right. They're both world domination obsessed cartoon villains but they're actually quite good at their jobs. No, Manshoon hasn't been able to kill Elminster but the thing is that he's STILL one of the Top Ten Most Powerful Wizards alive (only briefly off that list due to the Shadovar being Gary Stus) and he's alive against all the Seven too.
I admit I draw pretty heavily from Doctor Doom and Darth Vader too. He's a ruthless, terrifying, and scary individual who imagines he has a sense of honor but is actually a sense of practicality. He's not given to the kind of ranting bizarre stupidity of Lolth or TSR Manshoon. He's cold, calm, and rutjless like a Lich who just hasn't made the transition.
I also had my headcanon Manshoon as played by Jeremy Irons. Just not...Profion style. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 23 Aug 2020 : 05:27:17
I believe Ed has already said that the original Manshoon 'sleeps' somewhere but briefly awoke when the Shoonwars began and then promptly returned to his rest. In my mind, the Primeshoon has found a way to remain connected to all of his clones and gains all of their knowledge. He awoke because several of them became active at once and then had quickly researched a way to return to his rest whilst gaining information from all the actives simultaneously (and probably not without consequence). Anyway, Ed has stated that this Manshoon is the most dangerous of them all. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 08 Aug 2020 : 00:30:53
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
So a new Manshoon clone that was the Master-Sorcerer of everything? And you can honestly say we didn't know about it? The only Manshoon that seems to have any control at all over his desires is The Vampre Manshoon of Westgate.
Nope, not new. Old - the oldest - as identified in C&D. And we knew a lot about it - but everyone focused on the Vampire and the one at the Citadel and ignored the rest. That's on WoTC because they dropped the Manshoon Wars plot almost right out of the gate. Then they decided that the Zhentarim should be wiped out in favor of their new floating bad guys and their undead army in Thay. So they wrote a sentence and it was done. Still, they left many ends to be tied off. |
| King Libertine |
Posted - 07 Aug 2020 : 22:08:21
I have always seen Manshoon as a dim-witted, boring character that does nothing but try to usurp power from everything and anything that moves on a chess board of magic. Often choosing the really dumb way to go, instead of a more thought out endgame. When the manshoon wars happened I was glad. sigh, it seems that 3 of him lived. And if i am not wrong, it looks like vampshoon died at the end of The Herald. Having his mind burnt and blasted during a scrying attempt as shade enclave and myth drannor collided. That's how I read that book. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 15:12:38
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
So a new Manshoon clone that was the Master-Sorcerer of everything? And you can honestly say we didn't know about it? The only Manshoon that seems to have any control at all over his desires is The Vampre Manshoon of Westgate.
Ironically, my PCs encountered Vampire Manshoon in Westgate, shortly after his takeover of the Night Masks, and he was rash, overconfident in his new powers and, when roused, revelled in bloodlust. Which ended up getting him lit on fire and having to jump into the harbour to escape destruction.
When the PCs encountered him again a year later, however, he had much better control over his vampiric impulses and was even able to move past the personal indignity and unpleasantness of having been Fireball-ed, in the interest of a mutually beneficial mercantile agreement. After all, the PCs weren't the first personal foes Manshoon has made common cause with. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 10:52:07
So a new Manshoon clone that was the Master-Sorcerer of everything? And you can honestly say we didn't know about it? The only Manshoon that seems to have any control at all over his desires is The Vampre Manshoon of Westgate. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 10 Jul 2020 : 00:18:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
I personally think that out of all the Manshoon clones... (like what?, 30 in all?)... that The Vampire Manshoon is the "TRUE" Manshoon both psychically and symbiotically.
I favor the idea that the original (or at least an earlier) Manshoon is lurking somewhere quietly, perhaps in a pocket dimension, watching what all of his clones are getting up to. I think he figured out a way to activate a clone without having to die, first, and did so, then let the clone go off and do its thing.
It's also possible there are other Manshoons lurking about, but not in the physical form of Manshoon -- it was made clear during the Manshoon Wars that a way to escape the "gotta kill them all!" compulsion was to change forms.
I go with this, and call him Manshoon Prime (like C&D).
He spends most of his time inside one of the extra dimensional hideaways created by the Sword Heralds of Cormyr. From there he is up to all kinds of things - allying with the Cult of the Black Hand from way back in the Halls f the High King module; building a brotherhood of wizards as Mystra commanded (he took her command where Vampshoon would not, and reaped the benefits); also gathering vassal undead, mostly liches, using Larloch's magic; etc. He was the one who appeared in sightings all over blasting someone and taking their magic at the beginning of the "clone wars" :P, or teleporting in after other clones blasted each other to bits and salvaging what he could from them.
He is the ultimate bad guy who is not going to rush in for players, but plays puppet master of other powerful NPCs that don't even know he is their "boss" in the shadows.
|
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 09 Jul 2020 : 01:17:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
I personally think that out of all the Manshoon clones... (like what?, 30 in all?)... that The Vampire Manshoon is the "TRUE" Manshoon both psychically and symbiotically.
I favor the idea that the original (or at least an earlier) Manshoon is lurking somewhere quietly, perhaps in a pocket dimension, watching what all of his clones are getting up to. I think he figured out a way to activate a clone without having to die, first, and did so, then let the clone go off and do its thing.
It's also possible there are other Manshoons lurking about, but not in the physical form of Manshoon -- it was made clear during the Manshoon Wars that a way to escape the "gotta kill them all!" compulsion was to change forms.
Very interesting. I didn't know. I like the idea of an "Original" Manshoon in a pocket dimension, having first learned the magic to awaken clones without dying. I would Imagine THAT Manshoon being the most powerful by contingency or some such.
Though in the books... The Vampire Manshoon is more sure than the two remaining clones that HE is the true Manshoon.
What's to stop the three remaining clones to produce more clones of themselves? They certainly have the skill in magic and the knowledge to do so at all three of their fingertips. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jul 2020 : 00:03:41
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
I personally think that out of all the Manshoon clones... (like what?, 30 in all?)... that The Vampire Manshoon is the "TRUE" Manshoon both psychically and symbiotically.
I favor the idea that the original (or at least an earlier) Manshoon is lurking somewhere quietly, perhaps in a pocket dimension, watching what all of his clones are getting up to. I think he figured out a way to activate a clone without having to die, first, and did so, then let the clone go off and do its thing.
It's also possible there are other Manshoons lurking about, but not in the physical form of Manshoon -- it was made clear during the Manshoon Wars that a way to escape the "gotta kill them all!" compulsion was to change forms. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 08 Jul 2020 : 23:47:00
Manshoon is tricky. Are we talking about The Vampire Manshoon who may or may not have died during "The Herald" novel. I hope not, because the Vampire Manshoon seemed more the mind of laid back scheming evil and somewhat content to let the greater evils do their thing.
The second Manshoon clone is Bat-Dung-Crazy and missing an arm or something abiding where Halaster once did I think in Undermountain.
The third Manshoon clone is out there doing Manshoon things with the Zhents like he once did during the Spellfire books.
I personally think that out of all the Manshoon clones... (like what?, 30 in all?)... that The Vampire Manshoon is the "TRUE" Manshoon both psychically and symbiotically. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 03:31:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The BIG problem is the NOVEL Manshoon is NOT Ed's Manshoon. He is the keystone cops Manshoon that TSR editors left him with. Ed and Tho have both mentioned this several times in the old scrolls here. In general, the publishers want fights every couple of pages and once they decided El was badass, they made him TOO badass, which made Manshoon look like Wile-E-Coyote running off a cliff chasing Road Runner.
In one of those old scrolls (maybe Wooley has links saved away somewhere?) Ed goes into detail on how to roleplay the Master of the Zhentarim.
Also remember - 4th Ed. Manshoon in the novels is Vampshoon. One of the clones that has a very unique arc.
I would think Undermountain Manshoon would be a different clone (the one that bargained with Halaster in the Manshoon Wars makes the most sense to me). If you're sticking with the "Halaster is dead" thing, maybe Manshoon became Undermountain's new master :P
I shared some info in this discussion already.
I once suggested that the Undermountain Manshoon (Undershoon?) could have collected a bunch of Halaster's soul shards after the latter blew himself up in that ridiculous 4E thing, and then wound up merging with them and becoming some sort of gestalt Manshoon/Halaster combination (Halashoon?).
Ooops - somehow totally missed those previous posts. Ah well
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 10:20:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'd have to go with Ayrik.
Manshoon is best used when he's never encountered. Underlings, scary stories, etc. This is more than enough to create an arch enemy that doesn't even know the PCs exist because they are simply beneath his notice.
If he ever does make an appearance, it should not be in response to the players. Instead, it should be in conflict with some other uber NPC - maybe Trobriand. Maybe he is meeting with the Eye
Or a surprise inspection of some unlucky Zhent garrison because something important maybe goes on nearby, so he wants to make sure they are in a proper shape and not pulling anything. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 00:03:42
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The BIG problem is the NOVEL Manshoon is NOT Ed's Manshoon. He is the keystone cops Manshoon that TSR editors left him with. Ed and Tho have both mentioned this several times in the old scrolls here. In general, the publishers want fights every couple of pages and once they decided El was badass, they made him TOO badass, which made Manshoon look like Wile-E-Coyote running off a cliff chasing Road Runner.
In one of those old scrolls (maybe Wooley has links saved away somewhere?) Ed goes into detail on how to roleplay the Master of the Zhentarim.
Also remember - 4th Ed. Manshoon in the novels is Vampshoon. One of the clones that has a very unique arc.
I would think Undermountain Manshoon would be a different clone (the one that bargained with Halaster in the Manshoon Wars makes the most sense to me). If you're sticking with the "Halaster is dead" thing, maybe Manshoon became Undermountain's new master :P
I shared some info in this discussion already.
I once suggested that the Undermountain Manshoon (Undershoon?) could have collected a bunch of Halaster's soul shards after the latter blew himself up in that ridiculous 4E thing, and then wound up merging with them and becoming some sort of gestalt Manshoon/Halaster combination (Halashoon?). |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 18 Jun 2020 : 20:09:42
The BIG problem is the NOVEL Manshoon is NOT Ed's Manshoon. He is the keystone cops Manshoon that TSR editors left him with. Ed and Tho have both mentioned this several times in the old scrolls here. In general, the publishers want fights every couple of pages and once they decided El was badass, they made him TOO badass, which made Manshoon look like Wile-E-Coyote running off a cliff chasing Road Runner.
In one of those old scrolls (maybe Wooley has links saved away somewhere?) Ed goes into detail on how to roleplay the Master of the Zhentarim.
Also remember - 4th Ed. Manshoon in the novels is Vampshoon. One of the clones that has a very unique arc.
I would think Undermountain Manshoon would be a different clone (the one that bargained with Halaster in the Manshoon Wars makes the most sense to me). If you're sticking with the "Halaster is dead" thing, maybe Manshoon became Undermountain's new master :P |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Jun 2020 : 20:41:19
Most of Ed's novels involving Elminster during 4th edition had one Manshoon or another in the novels. If you're interested in his personality, that might be a good place to go as well. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 17 Jun 2020 : 18:45:35
I now play Manshoon as pretty much a "broken record" in that he is literally a copy...a record...of his original self that died long ago. His Clones give him a form of immortality; but at the cost of being non-inventive because it is hard for him to learn from his mistakes.
So while I play him as Ed suggests...I also play him as hopeless because somewhere in his cloned brain he can't get past certain points. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 15 Jun 2020 : 12:09:58
He's a very bitter man.
That's the only way I can rationalize someone who Elminster routinely humiliates consistently coming back for more. There's a novel where he surprises a weakened Elminster, then gets blown up by an archlich going kamikaze.
Play him like someone who knows that the universe is out to screw him over out of every victory. In short, make him Eeyore.
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