| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 20:11:16
So in another thread I was talking about what I would do with the place, as of 5e. So I put a little more thought into it, and here's the breakdown:
The Tharches:
Thaymount - is basically what all of Thay was in 4e. A pace where 'ebil lich' Szass Tam dwells, plotting his plots, surrounded by hordes of Undead. Now to try and make sense of all this.
Alaor - mostly destroyed island-realm. no longer truly considered part of Thay. The Red Wizards organization do keep an enclave on the island despite the port being all but gone.
Delhumide - ruled by an Animus, and (secretly) allied with Thaymount. Very few are aware of the undead status of the ruler.
Eltabbar - Ruled by a vampire (also status unknown... but not really. everyone suspects). Secretly under the control of Szass Tam.
Gauros - strangely, fell under the control of Songfarla during the 4e era. What few surviving humans were left were aided by the gnomes, and lead to underground shelters. The humans are only now returning to the surface in any numbers, and rebuilding settlements. Thus far, the rest of Thay is ignoring them - they have no idea how much power Songfarla has, and there are too many lucrative trade-deals going on with Gnomish consortiums to want to jeopardize any of that.
Lapendrar - after suffering major losses immediately following the Spellplague, Lapendrar bounced back, and is doing better than ever. Although it has completely lost its holding on the first escarpment (to Tyraturos), it has extended its border far to the west, not encompassing parts of southern Thesk and even the city of Milvarune, much to Aglarond's chagrin, because this has now given Thay (in their eyes) a port on the Easting Reach. Aglarond was not able to stop Lapendrar's rise due to its own internal struggles during that same period, and the only thing it still controls on the north side of the River Umbar is the City of Emmech (which maintains good relations with the 'nation' of Lapendrar for obvious reasons). The region of Thesk south of the Thesk mountains was never truly under the control of a central Theskan government to begin with, so there was little Thesk could do to prevent the expansion. The people living in the region would have never agreed to become 'Thayan', but Lapendrar assures everyone all ties with its former kingdom have been severed (not entirely true - they still pay lip-service to its council). This is a power on the rise, and one to be watched (and feared?)
Priador - almost completely defunct as a 'Tharch'. Although it still claims Murbant and Thasselen, it truly only controls Bezantur, and just barely. The Guilds have risen to power in bexzantur, and although they still pretend to lisen to their tharchion, its the Guildmasters who hold sway in the city. Beyond Bezantur and the famr lands immediately surrounding it, nothing is actaully under the dominance of Priador, and the countryside has mostly fallen to lawlessness. Bezantur itself, however, is doing just fine, and has a strong merchant marine, and trade with southern and eastern nations is on the rise.
Pyarados - One of the two remaining strong tharches; the other being Tyraturos, which is a close ally. The two manage to keep Szass Tam in-check, and from retaking the rest of Thay. The High Council takes turns meeting here and in Tyraturos.
Surthay - technically now 'independent', very much like Ashanath (or Altumbel), with no central governing body. When Thay fell to the undead during its civil war, Surthay was seized and settled by Rashemi, but Rashemen makes no claims on it (Rashemen DOES consider it part of Rashemen now, but does not want to force Thay's hand by making any sort of grandiose public announcements to that effect). Eventually something must be officially decided where Surthay is concerned the High council would like to reassert its claim.
Thaymount (Ruthammar) - a completely separate kingdom at this point, and very isolationist. No-one knows what Szass Tam is up to these days, but it can't be good. every so often he sends legions of undead down from his realm just to test the defenses of Thay, and thus far has found them adequate.
Thazalhar - this region was barely ever a Tharch to begin with, and is no longer. The fact that Thazalhar was briefly its own kingdom for nearly a century is all but forgotten. Like so many other small Imaskari 'survivor states', ti did not last very long, as the more powerful among their number absorbed the weaker ones. the only real difference between Thazalhar and so many of them was that its name had remained unchanged, despite changing hands multiple times (it just wasn't an interesting enough piece of territory to put that much thought into). Most recently, right after the Thayan civil War and after the Sellplague cause mass confusion, the nearby citystate of Sultim declared dominion over the region. No-one was in any position - or had any desire - to argue. The region remains unchnaged - not many folk live here, outside the city. It does share a border with Songfarla, as well as thay, and the Thayans have opened up diplomatic channels with Sultim in the hopes of a non-aggressive resolution to what they see as a 'seizure of their territory'. And truthfully, its just not worth fighting over.
Tyraturos - arguably the most powerful remaining Tharch, it seized the lands on the Thayan Plateau that once belonged to Lapendrar after the war, and has been building its economy - and military - ever since. The ruler of the tharch - referring to herself as the 'Ur-Queen', has designs to rule all of Thay, including Thaymount, eventually, and then move onto the rest of the Unapproachable East. However, that lofty goal will remain well out of her reach so long as Szass Tam sits in his fortress on the High Plateau.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 02:05:14
Well, this was just my way of imagining getting Thay back to being Thay like it used to be, without violating canon. So basically, the whole problem becomes getting rid of Uber-Tam after he won the war, but failed with the Dread Rings, but in such a way that there is still his 'shadow' hanging over the land. In other words, change, without change. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 17:16:05
Zalathorm's still alive as of 1372 DR. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 15:57:47
Is Zalathorm not dead? Like since 2nd ed? |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 07:32:22
I'd say you just need to rewrite the whole of Thay. Instead of Tam seeking divinity, Tam's instead succeeded in reuniting Thay with himself as the Zulkir Eminent, then stepped down from the job when he was satisfied that Thay could govern itself to go do whatever it is 30th level liches do. For potential irony, Velsharoon intervened and empowered Tam as his proxy, so Tam's off-plane for the moment.
That removes Tam and sets up an opportunity for new Zulkirs, gives a potential plotline (what are the liches planning for Thay?) and so on. Maybe Zalathorm's gone missing too, and it turns out that he's now Savras's proxy as part of a long-running game he has with Velsharoon to resurrect Mystra and get a boost in power in the bargain. Zalathorm and Szass engage in teeth-clenched teamwork while the PCs find themselves embroiled in plots culminating in an audience with the All-Seeing and the Lord of Necromancy, and eventually find themselves matched against the mightiest of Shar's and Cyric's servants while Mystra is slowly being resurrected. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 14 Jan 2018 : 22:47:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And now I have the picture of a Crystal Sphere filled with HUGE pyramids revolving around the sun, instead of normal planets. 
They don't have portals there, they've Stargates. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Jan 2018 : 22:42:35
So does it actually say anywhere the Mulan were from Earth? Or has that always just been an assumption?
Considering the shear number of worlds with Egypt-like cultures (nearly every one of them has one), I picture a 'Pharosphere' Crystal Sphere somewhere, where the Pharonics all came from, and they've spread outward from there. probably one of the earliest settled/completed Crystal Spheres.
In fact, it would be easy to contemplate that every major, known pantheon started out as THE pantheon for a specific setting/world/sphere, so there should be a Norsphere, A Sumerisphere (sorry, I ain't buying the Baylonians are a separate pantheon, anymore then I'd buy the Roman gods were different then the Greeks), a Shintosphere (Nipposphere?), Chinasphere (Celestiasphere?), etc, etc... and on some worlds, like FR and Earth, other shave interloped, to the point where they overpowered the native pantheon (although, if Crystal Spheres are still forming, then it might make more sense that these 'interlopings' are just how worlds get their own pantheons over time - things just 'shake themselves out' after awhile).
The only reason why I am saying this right here, right now, is because I brought up the idea (elsewhere, very recently) that Wee Jas is just GH's version of Mystra (really, the pre-split version of Shar/Selûne), and that Hecate might be the version for an Olympian-run sphere. Thus Isis might just be another version of Mystra as well - one from a Pharosphere.
And now I have the picture of a Crystal Sphere filled with HUGE pyramids revolving around the sun, instead of normal planets. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Jan 2018 : 22:26:08
While the idea that the Mulan gods showed up and started defiling the place (after all, they do seem to like deserts, don't they?) has its merits, I had always assumed the Imaskari had a 'Doomsday Weapon' - perhaps even Pandorym himself. Supposedly he was separated into two parts to depower him - what if bringing those two parts together was just like activating a nuclear warhead? (pure unbridled primordial RAGE)
So whatever McGuffin you use, the Imaskari basically were pricks - if they couldn't win, NO-ONE WOULD. And it worked, somewhat. The Plains of Purple Dust - the very heart of their empire (and the densest population centers, Imaskari and slave alike) - were reduced to dust. The shock of that - both to the surviving Imaskari and the fleeing Mulan, would have probably ended the war right there (its akin to the Dark Disaster that befell the High Moor, or the Rain of Colorless Fire that happened to the Suel in GH... and I think all three are related... but that's a story for another time).
Funny thing is, I've always thought of all those localized cataclysms as the ultimate form of Difiler magic - someone (usually a 'circle' of someones) drains all the 'life' (Mana) from the land and then turns into into an Arcane Storm which devastates the land even more - basically, weaponizing the land against itself. It would almost be like a mini-Spellplague happening in in a specific location (the creation of the Mournland in Eberron would also be a similar event). In fact, you could even think of it as someone 'setting the Weave on fire' in a region, and as it burns itself out, it destroys everything within the zone.
The difference of course, is that no matter what happened, or precisely how it happened, I always think it was the Imaskari that set the plan in motion. They were losing, and desperate. The Mulan gods were there to 'save their people', and I think sacrificing so many for a victory doesn't seem to fit the rest of the lore. Plus, except for a couple of jerks (every pantheon has them), they just don't seem like the types to wantonly destroy nature like that. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 14 Jan 2018 : 22:04:32
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, they told all their new followers that the destruction was just a result of the bad fight they had to do, and it was a big old lie.
Not everyone has to lie everytime, you know?
There is nothing in Mulhorand or in the power of their gods/manifestations/incarnations that let's us assume they can do or had to do Dark Sun defiler-style actions.
They have had a good bunch of other big confrontations (among the pantheons, with the orcs, with Thayd and then the Red Wizards), and yet only in Raurin we see that kind of devastation. If they had the chance to empower themselves by leeching off the land I doubt the orcs would have put so many of them in the dead-book.
On the other hand, as much as I can respect the Imaskari, I can see them going all out when confronted with avatar-level enemies of three pantheons, to the point of destroying their own land in a desperate attempt to win.
The only middleground I can see is if the devastation was the unintended fallout of the death of one or more of the deities (like the Helmlands in Cormyr, created by the death of Mystra the First of Her Name) but I can't remember at the moment if some of the deities from the three pantheons are reported as dying in the fighting with the Imaskari (while I'm sure the orcs killed 4 or more - without apparently loosing any of their numbers!). |
| Demzer |
Posted - 14 Jan 2018 : 21:50:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
With that, we could even say that Szass Tam is 'in on' the hoax that he is still up on Thaymount, operating as usual, and in the mean time, he is planes-hopping or whatever. My love of mapping had me so taken with the idea of a Morder-like 'ebil island' off the coast, I hadn't even considered Tam NOT 'winning', and instead being 'in hiding'. We could literally put him anywhere, like Winterkeep, etc. In fact, it might be more fun - and more useful from a gaming standpoint - to have him 'move about' constantly - give him several different bases of operation. He's so paranoid now he doesn't stay in any one place too long ...
Right.
So a handful of trusted lieutenants keep up the ruse in Thay and do whatever they can to slow the Thayan forces (without access to Tam's big guns, but nobody knows this so the more they reconquer, the scarier it is to continue for the invaders that expect him to show up sooner or later) while he is busy creating new powerbase seemingly at random, giving each its imprinting so as to make it more difficult to track him.
Many of these he doesn't even care about and they can be just a bunch of necromancers or undeads or monsters showing his flag in some remote corner of Toril and endangering a single town. Some might become new "satellite" power bases, especially if he gets there while searching for an edge over Larloch (think about all the Imaskari, Raumathari and Narfellian ruins that dot eastern Fearun and the Endless Wastes or your idea of pieces of the Moonshaes - you can have multiple Mordor-style sites, each with it's own flavour!).
But the principle is the same in each case and is the most simple but effective way to protect himself: assuming Larloch can't pinpoint his location instantaneously (a fair assumption, let's give Tam some chances), scattering "sightings" and "powerbases" of himself everywhere is the best way to avoid a confrontation and buy time.
I'm still convinced Tam should seek an extraplanar or otherwordly refuge, but since those are difficult to come by and prepare (and conquer most of the times) he has to make due with a unlife on the run for some time with two interesting side effects: he becomes a "use anywhere" villain like you said and Larloch can become an occult sponsor of adventurers, in its own ultra-deep-covered attempts to weed out Tam's false leads through proxies and without expending resources.
So you can have Tam everywhere (let's not think only undeads, he can start/boost wizard cabals, play arcane-councilor to warleaders, stir humanoid tribes, open the way for extraplanar incursions and so on) and on the run, Larloch sponsoring adveturers and Thayan forces slowly retaking the Thaymount with the feeling that each victory gets them closer to a desperate confrontation with an enraged Tam ... that will never happen. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 14 Jan 2018 : 02:21:31
I always assumed the opposite - that the Imaskari killed the land with their magic while killing their enemies. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Jan 2018 : 00:55:13
You know, one of the things that I was thinking about when discussing the above was the desolation of the Raurin desert and how it all came about as part of the battle with the Imaskari and Mulan manifestations. What if those manifestations effectively did something SIMILAR to Tam's ritual... killing the land, and drawing power out of the land's destruction.... in order to "cement" themselves into realmspace (i.e. they were really mortals acting as weakened avatars of the gods who could only grant spells in a short range, and destroying the land itself created enough power that they were able to infuse themselves with more power such that they became manifestations of deities and were able to grant spells throughout realmspace). However, they told all their new followers that the destruction was just a result of the bad fight they had to do, and it was a big old lie. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 19:35:34
So how about this - Szass Tam isn't up on Thaymount anymore, but none of the creatures/people still there want anyone to know that (I had some of that in my write-up, but the assumption there was that this was no longer the case). Maybe even a coalition of those Imaskari Mages took-over the place? Thus, to the world at large - including the rest of Thay - Szass Tam is still up on Thaymount, plotting and planning, and they are all living with paranoia. The truth is, others are 'making appearances' from time to time, just to make people think that is the case. Thus, we have Thay back to the way it was... but not really (after all, there has to be some difference left-over form that novel series!)
I really love the idea of yours, Demzer - it has a LOT of traction (and is based on past lore, from the Nethril box, that the two had 'dealings'). With that, we could even say that Szass Tam is 'in on' the hoax that he is still up on Thaymount, operating as usual, and in the mean time, he is planes-hopping or whatever. My love of mapping had me so taken with the idea of a Morder-like 'ebil island' off the coast, I hadn't even considered Tam NOT 'winning', and instead being 'in hiding'. We could literally put him anywhere, like Winterkeep, etc. In fact, it might be more fun - and more useful from a gaming standpoint - to have him 'move about' constantly - give him several different bases of operation. He's so paranoid now he doesn't stay in any one place too long (did we just turn him into Orichimaru? Nah... Orichimaru is WAY more interesting than Tam).
Thus, he becomes a 'use anywhere' villain, which is better for D&D (he can even appear in other settings!), and when the PCs finally kick down the last door to confront him... he's already gone. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 15:50:50
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My 'final solution' is that Thay becomes Thay again, like it used to be. As I said earlier in the thread, this lore would be like in the 'Year of the Ageless One' (Year one of the 4e era, actually), and now that we've moved into the 5e era, some of the subplots I put in here will have already played-out.
The only thing I would keep from the 4e era (because WAY too much lore happened in the novel series) is that Szass Tam is still 'up there' in Thaymount, and the rest of the country just tries to pretend the last escarpment isn't even there (for the most part). They obviously fear the day when he decides to turn his attentions back to Thay, but in the mean time, something is keeping him busy.
The idea of the Ravenloft plot device was just to buy us some time where 'old school' Thayan elements could have retaken parts of Thay. We have to keep Tam busy somehow, and there's not a lot that could occupy a guy like that. I also would say he is already 'back' from whatever that was (whether you use the RL thing or your own McGuffin), but for some reason he isn't at full strength, OR, he is building up his strength for something else entirely, OR, there is a 'greater threat' that no-one but him is aware of that is keeping him busy ATM (like maybe an 'Elder Evil' or some such followed him back home?)
I want to ask everyone something.... since the novel series, its going to be nearly impossible to put everything back the way it was. We can fix Thay itself, but we'd have to lose Tam. He's just not going to 'settle for less' anymore. How would you guys handle this problem?
I am thinking some sort of 'incursion' most others aren't aware of. Maybe some 'big bad' in the D&Dverse - like Vecna - or something we haven't heard of before. This thing has brought a piece of its own world with it - maybe in the nearby Great Ice Sea, or even superimposed over part of the Hordleands, or even Kara-Tur (although that's a bit out of way, if we are trying to keep him around). Or we could move him completely the other way - maybe off the coast of Faerûn, on the Sword Coast. There are plenty of islands there. Heck, we could even give him one of the Moonshaes. Or we could create a brand new island and say it came over with Abeir (and then we can even blame the Eminence of Araunt). That way, Szass Tam could go and do an all-out attack on that place (and take it), and the Thayans can move to retake Thaymount while he is preoccupied. Once he has what he wants (maybe the place has some sort of necro-power source), he'll no longer care about Thay... at least, that's how I'd fix it. Then we go back to a bunch of Zulkirs in Thay and its business-as-usual, except we gained a Sauron/Mordor like plot device to use whenever we want.
One problem with the Sword Coast (even though its otherwise ideal, because thats where most of the 5e stuff is taking place) - Larloch. that's HIS stomping grounds, and if its Larloch that Szass Tam bumps heads with (I wouldn't do that, but whatever), then we'd have to then find a new spot for Larloch (if we are trying to say Tam wins... which is why I would NOT do this). With such a big power-play, one of them would have to wind-up in the Shadowfell, me thinks (which isn't a bad idea - give Larloch Netheril... that could work).
I'm trying to stick CLOSE to canon, so that's why I'd recommend sticking the second escarpment as still under his control as well. The lowest escarpment is the largest area, and its controls should maybe be "in flux", with rebellion occurring (tax collectors getting killed by robbers, castles being taken over and new autharchs being put in place... maybe a new Tharchion being chosen who refuses to report to Tam.... meanwhile the old Tharchion is still alive and in city X... and most autharchs are simply not claiming allegiance to either and trying to see what happens). Some of the portions of territories may secede entirely and try to do something new or join someone else.
As to Tam and what to do with him... its already written in. He wants to find some new land and try his ritual again. That land could easily be Chult. However, one of the things I was proposing the other day was to send a portion of the desert of desolation to abeir (Skysea and Medinat Muskawoon) and bring a portion of Abeir to Toril that folks haven't been focused on because of its remoteness. So, maybe there's this rich land on the edge of the Raurin desert (and by rich, I mean full of life).... and he's been building dread rings there over the past century.... and killing anyone that approached the area, so that's why no one knows about it.
The question then becomes, what actually happens when he completes his ritual? Does it do what he thought, or was he duped by Leira and that book (which in theory didn't appear until after the Cyrinishad did.... so it could be a "transformation" of the Cyrinishad, which may be an avatar of Leira).
As a sidenote to that, the Imaskari leaving Mulhorand are fleeing to this area. Allies? Potential Enemies? Do they recognize the dread rings and are attempting to take them over and subvert their purpose? |
| Demzer |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 11:49:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
... They obviously fear the day when he decides to turn his attentions back to Thay, but in the mean time, something is keeping him busy. ...
... but for some reason he isn't at full strength, OR, he is building up his strength for something else entirely ...
... Maybe some 'big bad' in the D&Dverse ...
... Larloch ...
My personal Realms and Thay are completely different but since you're asking for ideas I'll put forward the following.
We know that Larloch has countless (there have been losses and whatnot but we haven't really known for sure the precise number so it's still "countless" for me) servitor liches, some probably quite powerful or "peculiar" like Rhaugilath (statted at 32nd level in the 3/3.5 era) and he thoroughly commands them (with slips only when something really big happens), so he has ways to compel and control lichnee that (rightly) we know nothing of.
Since in my mind you don't get so old and so powerful without developing personality quirks, I think that one of Larloch's quirks is that he likes to "collect" powerful liches and unique undeads as both servitors and trophies of his supremacy.
So in the old days Pre-Spellplague Tam was just one among many liches striving for power and they got into an agreement so Tam could grow into something different.
Now Tam has grown, and he is worthy of being in Larloch's trophy room.
How I picture it is that Larloch worked some of his unique magic in every contact with Tam, subtle but powerful enchantments were laid in all his gifts to Tam and were activated and took hold. But Tam has got powerful on his own and has gone from realizing something was not right to understanding that Larloch is out for him now and some of his bindings are already in place so that's scary as nothing else to poor Tam and he just dives into full on paranoia. He doesn't act against the Red Wizards and the rest of Thay because he feels the need to have every last one of its zombies and monsters and magic missiles ready for the impending doom, at the same time he probably spends a lot of time wandering astrally projected or in similar ways to try and find a different base (a castle on a mountain is not going to stop Larloch, a demiplane may give Tam more of an edge).
The confrontation will probably never happen (in the near future) but Tam fears that whatever he does, if it gets him even 1% down from full power, he may be opening himself up for aggression from one of the only players on Toril he always feared.
So Tam waits, paralyzed by fear and paranoia, completely ignoring Thay and focusing on his own survival.
Of course this could be just on the background and cover the years you had Tam spending in Ravenloft so at the start of the campaign time you can have Tam finally going off "somewhere" where he feels he is safer (not entirely safe though) and from where he can launch occasional assaults on Thay forces while they slowly retake the Thaymount from all the things he has left behind (Tam would've moved most if not all of his riches, artifacts, books, laboratories, magical thingies and whatnot but he may have left behind a lot of traps, hordes of minor undeads and monster that he deemed useless in his hypotethic showdown). Oh and people (even other leaders) in Thay are most probably not aware that Tam is not there anymore (any wards will remain in place so no scryng or other easy ways of finding it out) so each step, each battle, each incursion of Thay forces is pondered with the "He can get out any minute" attitude that slows everything down, making the reunification of Thay a long and perilous process.
All the while, Larloch waits. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 01:34:20
My 'final solution' is that Thay becomes Thay again, like it used to be. As I said earlier in the thread, this lore would be like in the 'Year of the Ageless One' (Year one of the 4e era, actually), and now that we've moved into the 5e era, some of the subplots I put in here will have already played-out.
The only thing I would keep from the 4e era (because WAY too much lore happened in the novel series) is that Szass Tam is still 'up there' in Thaymount, and the rest of the country just tries to pretend the last escarpment isn't even there (for the most part). They obviously fear the day when he decides to turn his attentions back to Thay, but in the mean time, something is keeping him busy.
The idea of the Ravenloft plot device was just to buy us some time where 'old school' Thayan elements could have retaken parts of Thay. We have to keep Tam busy somehow, and there's not a lot that could occupy a guy like that. I also would say he is already 'back' from whatever that was (whether you use the RL thing or your own McGuffin), but for some reason he isn't at full strength, OR, he is building up his strength for something else entirely, OR, there is a 'greater threat' that no-one but him is aware of that is keeping him busy ATM (like maybe an 'Elder Evil' or some such followed him back home?)
I want to ask everyone something.... since the novel series, its going to be nearly impossible to put everything back the way it was. We can fix Thay itself, but we'd have to lose Tam. He's just not going to 'settle for less' anymore. How would you guys handle this problem?
I am thinking some sort of 'incursion' most others aren't aware of. Maybe some 'big bad' in the D&Dverse - like Vecna - or something we haven't heard of before. This thing has brought a piece of its own world with it - maybe in the nearby Great Ice Sea, or even superimposed over part of the Hordleands, or even Kara-Tur (although that's a bit out of way, if we are trying to keep him around). Or we could move him completely the other way - maybe off the coast of Faerûn, on the Sword Coast. There are plenty of islands there. Heck, we could even give him one of the Moonshaes. Or we could create a brand new island and say it came over with Abeir (and then we can even blame the Eminence of Araunt). That way, Szass Tam could go and do an all-out attack on that place (and take it), and the Thayans can move to retake Thaymount while he is preoccupied. Once he has what he wants (maybe the place has some sort of necro-power source), he'll no longer care about Thay... at least, that's how I'd fix it. Then we go back to a bunch of Zulkirs in Thay and its business-as-usual, except we gained a Sauron/Mordor like plot device to use whenever we want.
One problem with the Sword Coast (even though its otherwise ideal, because thats where most of the 5e stuff is taking place) - Larloch. that's HIS stomping grounds, and if its Larloch that Szass Tam bumps heads with (I wouldn't do that, but whatever), then we'd have to then find a new spot for Larloch (if we are trying to say Tam wins... which is why I would NOT do this). With such a big power-play, one of them would have to wind-up in the Shadowfell, me thinks (which isn't a bad idea - give Larloch Netheril... that could work). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 00:56:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, they are judging Tan Chin by D&D levels, when you need to look at the lore. In 1e, Elminster was lower level than Khelben, and yet he could snap his fingers and make Khelben disappear if he wanted to (He did do that to Khelben's Blacksaff, which should have been IMPOSSIBLE (like taking away the Silver Surfer's board), and Khelben was shocked, and was even like, "How the hell did you just do that?" And that was in Spellfire, so a VERY early novel, when those 'levels' should have applied.
Tan Chin is way older than Telemont - Nethril was a 'flash-in-the-pan to the Imaskari. Also, he didn't die at the end of those modules, MaskedMage - Brian James wrote a little lore concerning him and Ra-Khati in 4e (which he slightly altered the names because it had to be 'core'), and when I asked him why Tan Chin was still alive, he said that he assumed the heroes in the modules were unsuccessful. We are so used to taking published adventures and thinking that that future lore will ALWAYS show success, that it never dawns on us that the opposite could have been true. Tan Chin was NOT destroyed.
I rectified this by replacing one of the artifacts with a fake, so while Tan Chin may have been severely weakened by the whole affair (think of those things like the Horcruxes in Harry Potter), he was still able to come back. This means gamers could have played through it (as your group did), and been 'successful' with the published outcome, and him still be 'alive' (as alive as a lich gets - and BTW, he's a Suel {ghost} Lich) afterwards.
I've even managed to salvage him from that core lore Brian wrote (in Open Grave), by saying that similar-sounding name was really a protégé. Other 'heroes' from the modules were also there, but I couldn't save them - they sadly needed to die for the greater good. 
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Whilst I absolutely enjoy and respect the hard work you have done here sleyvas, I can’t but help despair at what WotC did to Thay to sell a few novels.
— George Krashos
I could have sworn this was MY thread. LOL
Sleyvas is doing the 'United Tharchs' thing, and although I am not using any of that here, I did try to leave it as open as possible so the two could possibly still work together. For example, where he went with his United Tharchs, I am doing with my Red Wizard Enclaves (which have becomes schools of magic, all over the Realms, which helps explain their omnipresense in 4e/5e). My schools serve the same function as his enclaves, but cleaves somewhat closer to the canon (IMO).
Yeah, that's where I'm taking it too. I'm looking at some of your ideas, but throwing in fixes, because in the end.... I do want to fix Thay. I just don't see a path forward without a "WHAM RESET" to have it instantaneous. So.... baby steps. If that means some of the lower escarpments are "in flux" but the rest is still the same, that's working towards the end goal. Also, for me, it wasn't about the place... it was the concept and how the people acted. So, if the Thaymount is now off-limits but the wizards' reach is now a prosperous area with weather controlled farming.... works for me.
In the end, my work is improved by using people as a sounding board....just like the other day I was talking about having Innarlith inhabited by drow.... yeah... bad idea... overdone. But, putting someone else... someone decidedly from Abeir... in Innarlith (maybe having transferred from Abeir via the plagueland or the Chondalwood) that could be fun, since its already ruins. For instance, I had been thinking about dragonborn... but maybe dragonkin (and thus winged).... or maybe those Abeiran trolls that I was picturing and have Innarlith totally grown over with jungle in the past century. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 00:33:45
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We are so used to taking published adventures and thinking that that future lore will ALWAYS show success, that it never dawns on us that the opposite could have been true.
Too true. One of the reasons I always argue with people who say Szass Tam is a badass is I personally killed him once playing spellbound. Granted Eltab did some of the heavy lifting but still - his skull was one of my favorite trophies :) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 21:18:32
Yeah, they are judging Tan Chin by D&D levels, when you need to look at the lore. In 1e, Elminster was lower level than Khelben, and yet he could snap his fingers and make Khelben disappear if he wanted to (He did do that to Khelben's Blacksaff, which should have been IMPOSSIBLE (like taking away the Silver Surfer's board), and Khelben was shocked, and was even like, "How the hell did you just do that?" And that was in Spellfire, so a VERY early novel, when those 'levels' should have applied.
Tan Chin is way older than Telemont - Nethril was a 'flash-in-the-pan to the Imaskari. Also, he didn't die at the end of those modules, MaskedMage - Brian James wrote a little lore concerning him and Ra-Khati in 4e (which he slightly altered the names because it had to be 'core'), and when I asked him why Tan Chin was still alive, he said that he assumed the heroes in the modules were unsuccessful. We are so used to taking published adventures and thinking that that future lore will ALWAYS show success, that it never dawns on us that the opposite could have been true. Tan Chin was NOT destroyed.
I rectified this by replacing one of the artifacts with a fake, so while Tan Chin may have been severely weakened by the whole affair (think of those things like the Horcruxes in Harry Potter), he was still able to come back. This means gamers could have played through it (as your group did), and been 'successful' with the published outcome, and him still be 'alive' (as alive as a lich gets - and BTW, he's a Suel {ghost} Lich) afterwards.
I've even managed to salvage him from that core lore Brian wrote (in Open Grave), by saying that similar-sounding name was really a protégé. Other 'heroes' from the modules were also there, but I couldn't save them - they sadly needed to die for the greater good.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Whilst I absolutely enjoy and respect the hard work you have done here sleyvas, I can’t but help despair at what WotC did to Thay to sell a few novels.
— George Krashos
I could have sworn this was MY thread. LOL
Sleyvas is doing the 'United Tharchs' thing, and although I am not using any of that here, I did try to leave it as open as possible so the two could possibly still work together. For example, where he went with his United Tharchs, I am doing with my Red Wizard Enclaves (which have becomes schools of magic, all over the Realms, which helps explain their omnipresense in 4e/5e). My schools serve the same function as his enclaves, but cleaves somewhat closer to the canon (IMO). |
| Demzer |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 19:43:40
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The Rune is basically a southern version of Manshoon working behind the scenes.
No.
Please, talk just about what you know and leave this honorable cabal out of the old debate about who is stronger in what System of Measurement.
Thanks. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 13:24:19
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Whilst I absolutely enjoy and respect the hard work you have done here sleyvas, I can’t but help despair at what WotC did to Thay the sell a few novels.
— George Krashos
Yeah. I loved reading those novels, while at the same time, they SOOO tugged at my heart-strings for WHAT was done. It is kind of why I went left field and started this "United Tharchs of Toril" concept, which has been fun just for the idea of throwing things out. I know it will never EVER get official acceptance, but talking things through does I think bring out ideas in the community.
That being said... officially in canon, Tam still owns the place, and any past zulkirs would have to be trying to reseize it. This of course sets up the perfect setup to involve adventurers in countless scenarios working for one side or the other. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 13:04:45
Deja Vous |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 12:03:55
Whilst I absolutely enjoy and respect the hard work you have done here sleyvas, I can’t but help despair at what WotC did to Thay to sell a few novels.
— George Krashos |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 10:32:58
On an alternate sub-topic - does anyone think Maligor is still alive. Its yet another Zulkir maybe killed off-stage death. He would be a good one to be waiting in the shadows re-building his power for a chance to kill Tam.
I'm also going to pose this ? in the Zulkirs thread. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 10:30:01
Lost Empires is wrong. As I said, an entry in a later publication by someone who didn't know better or was trying to impose themselves. A lot of that happened, but you're much better off going to the source. Play the Empires Series as DM - but remove the Stone Scepter. Then watch as your PCs get slaughtered and become his puppets, no matter what level you have them at.
As for Manshoon, you basically proved the point. Yes, the "archlich kamikaze" as you call it killed one Manshoon. ONE Manshoon. And El points out how incredible it was but that it was a waste. Why? His clone was already active and getting busy.
The Fzoul fiasco (what I call the god-awful writing that turned the tool Fzoul into a god-powered conquering machine) aside, if you read the Manshoon Wars entry you will see it says exactly what I'm telling you. The clone becoming active didn't make him less dangerous, they made him more dangerous. The last few novels he's been in his right back to being a major baddy, but Ed tells us that is not even the most powerful Manshoon. And what Ed says always matters - its the trump card in this game, because its his game. Szass and the Zukirs tried and failed. The Rune is basically a southern version of Manshoon working behind the scenes. Alustriel, the Simbul, Zalathorm all died just like Manshoon. Some are resurrected but that's the point.
Comparisons to Sauron are labored, since he's a Maia and there is no direct correlation - though I guess you could call Maia demigods. So maybe you could compare him with Iuz from Greyhawk if you really wanted. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 09:16:40
Lost Empires of Faerun, page 65. He's a nec 18.
Manshoon is analogous to Team Rocket because he's only effective when he's in the background. He and the Zhents are like the Keystone Cops of the Realms; claiming that the most powerful wielders of magic can't stop this guy is flat-out wrong. The Simbul could waltz into Avernus and butcher baatezu by the thousands, the only reason Elminster hasn't simply had enough, scryed out Manshoon's clone labs and spent a night wiping every trace of him off the face of the Earth is purely author fiat. Almost every appearance by Manshoon has him dying; there's an Elminster novel where he shows up in the last few pages and gets blown up via archlich kamikaze. Hell, the Shade utterly crippled the Zhents when they were sufficiently annoyed. I mean, it's not like the most powerful mages in the Realms have tried, unless Manshoon crossed Larloch, Ioulaum, Shoon or the Twisted Rune and somehow survived a bunch of epic wizards frying him.
It's not a good showing when your villains become running jokes. Ask anyone who's not familiar with Ed Greenwood's in-house campaigns about Manshoon, and "Sauron-lite" would be the last thing on their minds. It doesn't matter what Ed says about Manshoon when his printed showings have made him a villainous laughingstock, to the extent that in the same edition the Zhents became competent, he was killed off, his clones went awry, and his job was taken by Fzoul. Sure, his empire "threatens Faerun", but if any of the higher powers were genuinely annoyed, he'd be a goner. Alustriel, Szass and the Zulkirs, the Rune, the Simbul and Zalathorm can and will wipe out the Black Network if they have sufficient reason for it. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 05:14:38
I don't know where you got 18th level lich from - probably some later publication written by someone who never actually played the Empires Series, but that is just plain wrong. Tan chin is not a lich, he's a unique undead being, who is not even actually IN the realms. That's right - the baddy you are seeing (just a couple eyes) is basically an avatar he uses his magic to project into the realms from his personal plane. The eyes had 12 HD not 18. Level has nothing to do with it. He doesn't memorize spells like a lich either. He can cast any necromancy spell he wants at will. Boom. Done.
Plus he has his army of dowagu - basically a race of demons that Tan Chin CREATED - thats right, he created the entire race. Szass Tam uses spells to make zombies, and when he gets bold enough he tries and fails to bind demons. Tan Chin MAKES his own demons that are unswervingly loyal.
The ONLY way to defeat Chin was to gather 5 MAJOR artifacts, one of which was made in the first place to destroy him, and then do something specific with them. Now the adventures obviously have that path laid out for you, because that's the whole idea - its fun to overcome impossible odds. I personally think (having played and run the adventures more than one) that doing all this doesn't even destroy Tan Chin - just his connection to Toril. His "phylactery" is actually the focus for his magical connection. So you need to destroy his physical form and then cut him off from the realms. That last bit is purely my own interpretation, however.
PS - No idea what team rocket is, but Manshoon is one of the most effective villains in the Realms. From basically nothing he created an empire that dominated or threatened THE ENTIRE CONTINENT of Faerun. If your players are not afraid of him you are using him wrong. That's not on him, its on you. And again, even if by some miracle you actually manage to beat him, you have not won because he comes back. Remember - he might lose a few fights to the Chosen of Mystra, but they NEVER manage to beat him. the most powerful wielders of magic on the planet cannot end this guy and struggle in vain for centuries to stop his Zhentarim. All that said, where do you get the idea that Manshoon is a better spellcaster? That's baseless as well. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 04:33:27
Tam Chin is as old as Telamont. Telamont has twice Tam Chin's levels.
I'm not seeing where his badassery is coming from. Manshoon is a better spellcaster, and Manshoon is Faerun's equivalent of Team Rocket. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 04:03:57
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Tan Chin is a Nec 18 compared to Tam's 29, chances are that the assembled liches would laugh at him instead.
Tan Chin is much more bad-ass. The level difference is only the difference in publication. Tan chin is more along the lines of a Southern Zhengi.
I can't figure out why they haven't killed Tam yet. Eltab wants him dead. Therefore he should be dead already unless he's hiding out of reach. Demons trump undead every time. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 02:51:16
That was a long time ago. Since the Spellplague, he's level 112. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 01:04:00
Tan Chin is a Nec 18 compared to Tam's 29, chances are that the assembled liches would laugh at him instead. |
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