| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Nov 2017 : 15:18:16
On another thread we were talking about Clones and how the 5e rules really should have something to control abuse of the spell. One of the things that I proposed was a loss of a level whenever you create a clone that is younger than your current age. In fact, it might even be fair to say you lose 1 level for every 25 years younger that you make the clone (rounded up). I will note that doing it at 25 years instead of 20 makes things a little more interesting to me, in that a spellcaster gets more bang for their buck.... but they also will want to be careful as to how far back they go (i.e. a 60 year old mage taking off 50 years becomes age 10, so it might better behoove them to drop to age 35 even though they'd rather be in their teens, etc..). As a sidebar note, also adding this stricture makes potions of longevity, etc... very viable still for the mage that doesn't want to lose spellcasting levels. The problem becomes... what exactly is the difference between a level 24 wizard/sorcerer and a level 23 one? For that matter, what about all the major spellcasting classes. I'm curious to see what YOU would do as far as rules for the "epic" levels, and I'll throw out some ideas that just hit me.
So, lets start off first with the easy thing... spell slots per spell level and prof bonus (let's slow down the prof bonus just a bit). Let's throw them out for bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards. Also, let's make cantrips come sooner.
***Spell Slots per Spell Level***
Level ProfBon #Cantrips 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
21 +7 6 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 1 1
22 +7 6 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1
23 +7 6 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1
24 +7 7 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 1
25 +7 7 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2
26 +8 7 5 5 4 4 3 3 3 2 2
27 +8 8 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 2
28 +8 8 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2
29 +8 8 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 3 2
30 +8 9 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 3 2
31 +8 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2
32 +9 9 5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 3
In addition to the above, the Ability Score Improvement/ Alternate Feat Advancement system should continue (with more options available from DM's Guild). These ability score improvements/Feats should come in at levels 24 and 30.
So, given the above, there should also be some special class abilities to go along with leveling just to make things a little more interesting. However, we should make sure that these abilities correspond to "levels that get you next to nothing". So, in the above, two appropriate spots seem to be levels 23 and 28. I would also recommend that any such ability build on a previous class ability that is fairly standard, so as to not require a lot of rework for alternate classes on DM's Guild, etc.... (for instance, making another ability for an arcane tradition becomes a lot of work if you allow a lot of arcane traditions beyond the 8).
So, let's throw out two special abilities for levels 23 and 28 for the various classes
Wizards
Improved Spell Preparation (wizard lvl 23) - You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so. choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to double your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). As an example, a 24th level wizard with intelligence of 20 would prepare 34 wizard spells. This bonus increases to triple the relevant ability score at level 29. The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Improved Spell Mastery (wizard lvl 28) - Instead of choosing just a 1st and 2nd level wizard spell to have mastered, instead choose 2 1st level and 2 2nd level spells. In addition, you gain 2 special cantrip spell slots which are actually similar to prepared spells, in that with 8 hours of study you can change the cantrips in those two slots.
Bards
Improved Spells Known (bard lvl 21) - Beginning at level 21 bards gain an additional spell known for each bard level that they increase.
Improved Magical Secrets (bard lvl 23 and 28) - Similar to the Magical Secrets class ability of the bard, Choose two spells from any class of 1st to 9th level, including this one. The chosen spells count as bard spells for you, but these two spells do NOT count against your number of spells known. In addition, choose one additional cantrip from the bard, wizard, or warlock spell list and you automatically know it. At level 28, the bonus spells learned increase from two to five and the number of cantrips increases from one to two.
Clerics
Improved Spell Preparation (cleric lvl 23) - You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast. To do so. choose a number of cleric spells from your spellbook equal to double your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). As an example, a 24th level cleric with wisdom of 20 would prepare 34 cleric spells. This bonus increases to triple the relevant ability score at level 29. The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Channel Divinity 4/rests (cleric lvl 23) -
Channel Divinity 5/rests (cleric lvl 28) -
Druids
Improved Spell Preparation (druid lvl 23) - You prepare the list of druid spells that are available for you to cast. To do so. choose a number of druid spells from your spellbook equal to double your Wisdom modifier + your druid level (minimum of one spell). As an example, a 24th level druid with wisdom of 20 would prepare 34 druid spells. This bonus increases to triple the relevant ability score at level 29. The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Beast Speech (druid lvl 23) - While in Wild Shape, you may speak using the natural speech patterns of the beast form you have assumed. However, one individual which you target automatically is able to understand your language, even if there is normally no shared language between the two of you.
Poison and Disease Immunity (druid lvl 28) - You are so adept at changing your body to withstand corrupting effects that poison and disease no longer affect you.
Sorcerers
Improved Spells Known & sorcery points(sorcerer lvl 21) - Beginning at level 21 sorcerers gain an additional spell known for each sorcerer level that they increase. Their number of sorcery points also continue to increase by 1 for each sorcerer level beyond 20.
Improved Sorcery (sorcerer lvl 23 and 28) - You gain an additional Metamagic Option of your choice at sorcerer levels 23 and 28. In addition, you may combine up to two metamagic options on the same spell. Also, at level 23 all 1st level sorcerer spells known by the sorcerer may be cast without expending a spell slot, and at level 28 this increases to include include 2nd level sorcerer spells known by the sorcerer. You may convert these spell slots to sorcery points if you like, or maintain them for for use with the Know Spell metamagic option.
At level 23 another new metamagic option becomes available to the sorcerer as well
Know Spell
You may spend sorcery points to temporarily know any spell of 5th level or less on the sorcerer spell list for up to one hour. You must spend one sorcery point per level of the spell to be known. In order to cast this spell you must expend a spell slot, such that even if you temporarily know a 1st or 2nd level spell via this metamagic option, you would still be required to expend an appropriate spell slot. As an example, a sorcerer could expend 5 sorcery points to temporarily "know" teleportation circle for an hour and cast it using one of his 5th level or higher spell slots.
EDIT: Thanks for the hint of [code'+'] [/code'+']. Hopefully it makes the table look right this time. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| valarmorgulis |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 21:36:29
Why not just make all epic progression continue with giving epic boons? Then you don't need to worry about breaking bounded accuracy since prof bonus doesn't increase. a 28th level Zulkir can have 7 epic boons, including one that doubles all prepared spells. Also gives you more leeway to create completely unique abilities. Perhaps Szass Tam has an epic boon that only he has access to -- maybe he acquired it from a ritual that he learned from Eltab.
I've actually statted out many of the gods (their avatars really), based on the material in Faiths and Avatars. As I haven't had a chance to test them out, I really don't know if I hit the mark in terms of challenge. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 23 Dec 2017 : 04:24:21
RPGs are primarily about character advancement and progression, and leveling up reflects that. It also reflects the kind of adventure you're expected to be participating in; high level characters did things like participate in planar wars against a tanar'ri prince, while low levels did things like investigate satyrs annoying the local village. Character level correlating to campaign goals is a staple of RPGs, whether tabletop like D&D to CRPGs like Dragon Age to MMORPGs like WoW to ARPGs like Grim Dawn. Every single one begins with the assumption that you start off as small fry and progress to becoming top-tier characters.
Even Superman started from small town heroics before going on to become the archnemesis of a god. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 22:06:48
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just curious... what in game terms actually makes you make that statement (since rather than adding to the conversation you specifically felt the need to express a dislike of the option)? I say this, because the current state of a 20th level character in my viewpoint is pretty pathetic in power level to previous editions or to anything appearing in novels. For example in 3rd edition, you'd have 16 spell slots available for levels 6-9 at 20th level. You also don't have a large choice of prepared spells to choose between. Now you have 4 spell slots and usually only about 8 spells prepared to choose between at those upper levels. So, other than the argument of "the game was only made to go to 20", what would be your argument for not going beyond? The power level is obviously significantly decreased.
5th edition is not a power game. It's brought D&D back to being more about "adventurers" than "super heroes". Why do you need to continue increasing in level? Why not just continue the adventure, retire, start another adventure but at high level? What's this notion that D&D is all about leveling up?
How the hell is being able to cast a 2nd spell of 6th level per day turning people into a superhero. Sounds like someone's just spouting mantras and not looking at the real question asked. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 20:00:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just curious... what in game terms actually makes you make that statement (since rather than adding to the conversation you specifically felt the need to express a dislike of the option)? I say this, because the current state of a 20th level character in my viewpoint is pretty pathetic in power level to previous editions or to anything appearing in novels. For example in 3rd edition, you'd have 16 spell slots available for levels 6-9 at 20th level. You also don't have a large choice of prepared spells to choose between. Now you have 4 spell slots and usually only about 8 spells prepared to choose between at those upper levels. So, other than the argument of "the game was only made to go to 20", what would be your argument for not going beyond? The power level is obviously significantly decreased.
5th edition is not a power game. It's brought D&D back to being more about "adventurers" than "super heroes". Why do you need to continue increasing in level? Why not just continue the adventure, retire, start another adventure but at high level? What's this notion that D&D is all about leveling up?
Leveling up is the reward. Its that simple. Why become an adventurer if not to become rich and powerful and save the day. The question really is what to do THEN... do you retire, maybe. Do you seek out still greater adventures? Maybe. To each his own.
Who says you can't continue to gain in other ways besides leveling? The problem with epic type leveling is that you get stuck on that neverending treadmill of finding things to kill. Gods and other all powerful beings get reduced to stats that don't coincide with what they are truly capable of. It doesn't need to be all about gaining that next power. They have 4th edition for that. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 18:08:25
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just curious... what in game terms actually makes you make that statement (since rather than adding to the conversation you specifically felt the need to express a dislike of the option)? I say this, because the current state of a 20th level character in my viewpoint is pretty pathetic in power level to previous editions or to anything appearing in novels. For example in 3rd edition, you'd have 16 spell slots available for levels 6-9 at 20th level. You also don't have a large choice of prepared spells to choose between. Now you have 4 spell slots and usually only about 8 spells prepared to choose between at those upper levels. So, other than the argument of "the game was only made to go to 20", what would be your argument for not going beyond? The power level is obviously significantly decreased.
5th edition is not a power game. It's brought D&D back to being more about "adventurers" than "super heroes". Why do you need to continue increasing in level? Why not just continue the adventure, retire, start another adventure but at high level? What's this notion that D&D is all about leveling up?
Leveling up is the reward. Its that simple. Why become an adventurer if not to become rich and powerful and save the day. The question really is what to do THEN... do you retire, maybe. Do you seek out still greater adventures? Maybe. To each his own. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 18:05:21
I've never had any problem with high-level, high-power characters. In truth, I prefer them. Why? There is always someone more powerful out there. It also takes intimate knowledge of your player's style and powers. Why does a prismatic sphere require a different spell to bypass each layer? To drain PCs supply of spells. If you think like this, it becomes easy. You know already what your players are prepared for. The trick is always throwing in something they are not prepared for - and no, I don't me calling up the tarrasque for a good rampage. Instead, how about a dragon, with magic, and magical protections. That's a match for any party of 20th levels +.
Some people think of the Zhents as bungling fodder. Well that's kind of correct, but it misses the point. They were fodder that was never ending. Killing one group of Zhents isn't so hard. Killing 20 in succession is damn near impossible and usually by the 6th or 7th even the most powerful party has to run for their lives or die. Add to that the possibility of unlimited Manshoons and you are set. Worst world-breaking ever was trying to undo this part of the realms. I fixed it by having the new Manshoons fall back upon the stasis clone spell so now there are half a dozen Manshoon-strains. Which Manshoon are you dealing with today, hmm? :P
Humanoids work the same way, tbh. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 16:53:49
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just curious... what in game terms actually makes you make that statement (since rather than adding to the conversation you specifically felt the need to express a dislike of the option)? I say this, because the current state of a 20th level character in my viewpoint is pretty pathetic in power level to previous editions or to anything appearing in novels. For example in 3rd edition, you'd have 16 spell slots available for levels 6-9 at 20th level. You also don't have a large choice of prepared spells to choose between. Now you have 4 spell slots and usually only about 8 spells prepared to choose between at those upper levels. So, other than the argument of "the game was only made to go to 20", what would be your argument for not going beyond? The power level is obviously significantly decreased.
5th edition is not a power game. It's brought D&D back to being more about "adventurers" than "super heroes". Why do you need to continue increasing in level? Why not just continue the adventure, retire, start another adventure but at high level? What's this notion that D&D is all about leveling up? |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 03:21:58
What about a psionic ranger?
Instead of having a quasi-druidic connection with nature, someone who meditates on the circle of life, the stars, the cosmos, etc - the 3e ranger spells could be translated into psionic disciplines, maybe with an emphasis on metabolic and divination.
Just a thought. I'm not passionate about it, but I think someone who is could do cool things with it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Dec 2017 : 00:24:04
quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
The most simple answer is to play 3.5 once you get past 20th level. Remove edition specific stuff like feats and the Epic Magic. I don't envy you this process but what you have looks quite good to me.
Thank you. I need to gather all of this into something else I'm working on, because I do believe that I am liking it. Honestly wasn't planning on developing it, but...
So, I still need ranger... but for some reason I feel like trying my hand at making a psionic class beside that mystic they did for 5e. |
| BrennonGoldeye |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 17:23:06
The most simple answer is to play 3.5 once you get past 20th level. Remove edition specific stuff like feats and the Epic Magic. I don't envy you this process but what you have looks quite good to me. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 17:45:01
So, one of the things I also see is that since ability score improvement doesn't go beyond 20, a lot of spellcasters will probably favor the "optional" rules of using feats. I think there should be some feats for spellcasters that maybe require level 20 and up. We don't need a ton of them, because there's only like 2 times you can choose a feat in THIS flow (23 and 28). So, let's throw some concepts for 5e feats that would really be good.
Componentless spellcasting: A number of times per day equal to their spellcasting modifier, the spellcaster may cast a spell that requires any of the following without having to perform/provide them: verbal, somatic, or material components of value less than their character level x 100 gp (so a 23rd level caster, it would be 2300 gp). In addition, material components which can normally be done away with by using a spellcasting focus no longer even require a spellcasting focus at any time, as the spellcaster himself has become a spellcasting focus.
Epic Concentration: A spellcaster may increase the number of spells that they can concentrate upon at one time. This is normally one spell and it would increase it to two. This does stack with other abilities which increase the number of spells able to be concentrated upon.
Epic Spells Known or Prepared: If you normally prepare spells you may prepare an additional number of spells equal to twice your spellcasting modifier (note, this does not increase your number of spell slots, just which spells you have available. If you must choose known spells, you gain knowledge of an additional number of spells equal to twice your spellcasting modifier.
then maybe some more... just throwing ideas down right now...
epic range (touch as 30 ft, double all ranges)...
School Heightening (all spells of a certain school cast as though using a spell slot say 3 levels higher)....
Epic Magic Item Crafter (treat the creation of magic items as though one tier lower in rarity... ie legendary as very rare, etc...)....
Bonus Attunement (let you attune to more items)...
improved war caster (come up with something to improve this)...
epic elemental adept (your spells overcome not only resistance but also immunity to spells of the appropriate type)...
epic ritual caster (not sure what to do here, but improve ritual casting... maybe even take rituals from other casting classes)...
jack-of-all-spellcasters (choose one additional spellcasting class and choose a number of spells equal to your spellcasting modifier from their spell list. You know or can prepare these spells).....
Multi-spell (when casting one spell as a bonus action, normally you can use your action only to cast a cantrip... with this feat you can cast a spell of 5th level or less instead of a cantrip)....
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 13:24:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The reason why I didn't have much to say (other than offering some ideas for alternative spellcasting I've tinkered with) is that I've never run a game that got up to level 20. It usually tops-out around 14-15. I've played in higher, but not DM'd one. Thus, I don't find much use for working out levels above 20. I think 1e/2e only went to 20, or there abouts. I recall the old grey box had some of the highest lev. NPCs anyone had ever seen - I'm all for NPCs being 'beyond PC ability'.
I really need to start playing again (a new game store open right near me, too) - I barely played 5e and I'm already forgetting a lot of it. 
Yeah, until you play an edition, it doesn't stick. My 5e gaming has never gotten past 14 so far. However, in writing up alternate rules for my Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy, I started seeing the flaws. There are so many spells missing. This is why I was glad to see the new Elminster's book that had so many realms spells on DM's guild. Granted some need work, but the concepts are there..... and when I say some need work... I said the same thing for a lot of Ed's stuff too from Seven Sisters etc.... so I will always be a person who tends to find the flaws in spellcasting.
On THIS thread though, I feel my weakest point will be in developing high level rules for NON-spellcasters. Honestly, I think I may not even make the attempt and just do rangers next and then maybe monks just because they are long-lived... and then look ad multi-classing. I say this because I can probably count on one hand the number of fighters, rogues, and barbarians that are advanced beyond 20 in the realms. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 13:16:33
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Hiya sleyvas, I like what you've got here.
I'm on the fence at this point. I remember being disappointed at the relatively large amount of gameplay removed in 5e by limiting levels to 20. But I'm also entertaining the notion of limiting PC level while allowing NPCs to have higher levels. Not a lot of NPCs, of course, but...
My reasoning for keeping PCs trimmed to 20 (or any other arbitrary level) is (1) there is a clunky sort of mechanic for PCs to accrue additional abilities as they earn more xp; (2) the number and variety of monstrous threats at level 21+ drops off quickly; (3) why make life easier for PCs at higher levels?
PCs are not supposed to ever get to a point where they can "kill Elminster forever." I don't give a fart about the EPIC NPCS MUST DIE movement - it's asinine, kinda like anarchy.
I think a sort of reverse should be true: advancement gets progressively harder as level increases. More xp are required for each level, and it's consistent for the encounters to get harder and for more of those encounters to be needed.
Maybe a nominally competent party of 5 can take down a barmy lich, but maybe it takes 6 or 8 to kill an ancient dragon and maybe the DM is doing something wrong if they can kill the tarrasque with less than 10 or 12. In theory, anything above a CR 30 should be nigh-indestructible by any number of mortals - keeping in mind that the bigger the group gets the more "intangibles" like strategy, coordination, anticipation, focus-fire, and so forth become issues.
I'm not entirely convinced, because I don't like level limits on principle. They feel like a weakness of computer games, a level on which tabletop gaming will always be better than online RPGs.
But with PC level limited, the challenges keep getting tougher but the PCs' power "on paper" tapers off. This means that endgame play relies increasingly on player skill rather than (to put it in MMO terms) "raiding and farming to gear up."
I can see some advantages to that... that's my thoughts.
I've only done a few times where players advanced to epic levels as well. However, I have used NPC's of higher levels. The 3.5 era of making NPC's though.... while interesting... omg was a pain. That's why when I saw people introducing epic rules that somewhat mirrored 3.5, it made me not like the concept. The epic levels shouldn't "ramp up" a caster to points that they're unchallengable. However, we should identify the fact that there's a significant number of folks in the realms who have advanced beyond 20, and we should have some means to EASILY stat them up.
So, in comparison to say 3.5 and even 2e, the numbers of spells that high level wizards (say 28... using Elminster for comparison) get a lot fewer spells
here's my numbers of 1st through 9th level for level 28
5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2
here's the numbers of 1st through 9th level in 2nd edition Forgotten realms Adventures for level 28
6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
So, we'd be cutting down the number of spells of say 6th lvl and up by 60%... and 5th lvl and up by 50%....
Essentially, what we considered level 20 in other editions would be more like level 30 in my charts.... and this works for me. It gives the Elminster's and Zulkirs and Manshoons of the world a measurable difference, but without them being "unbeatable". Now, in my youth, I was all about figuring out how to kill these "larger than life" NPC's. My fervor for that has lessened. However, I have had DM's who basically don't create rules for a high level NPC and just make it so the party have to kow tow to them.... and when you ask to see the NPC they fess up. DM abuse without rulesets can be just as bad as parties trying to be munchkins (and I'm not saying that to be mean... its just a reality).
Oh, and I very much agree... advancement at the high levels should be hellish. This is why I mentioned that the new clone spell where you can make yourself younger should cost a level. At the upper levels some spellcasters may go "Lose a level... or turn lich". It might explain better why so many liches exist.
And finally, just as a comparison again... here's to compare MY version of numbers of spells for a [b]level 32 caster [b] VERSUS the 2nd edition Forgotten Realms Adventures for a [b] level 20 [b] caster.
5e my version of 32
5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 3
FRA version of level 20
5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2
So, this level 32 caster almost completely matches up to a level 20 in 2nd edition, except that he has one more level 9 spell (and considering I can only think of one... maybe two level 32 casters in FR...). I will also caveat this with the statement that I wasn't comparing these two sources before now, but doing this is really making me think I'm not doing bad here. Essentially, what we could write up is that "epic" spellcasters are still their old levels, but that they're still not up to the spellcasting ability they had pre-spellplague. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 10:30:22
The reason why I didn't have much to say (other than offering some ideas for alternative spellcasting I've tinkered with) is that I've never run a game that got up to level 20. It usually tops-out around 14-15. I've played in higher, but not DM'd one. Thus, I don't find much use for working out levels above 20. I think 1e/2e only went to 20, or there abouts. I recall the old grey box had some of the highest lev. NPCs anyone had ever seen - I'm all for NPCs being 'beyond PC ability'.
I really need to start playing again (a new game store open right near me, too) - I barely played 5e and I'm already forgetting a lot of it. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 08:48:33
Hiya sleyvas, I like what you've got here.
I'm on the fence at this point. I remember being disappointed at the relatively large amount of gameplay removed in 5e by limiting levels to 20. But I'm also entertaining the notion of limiting PC level while allowing NPCs to have higher levels. Not a lot of NPCs, of course, but...
My reasoning for keeping PCs trimmed to 20 (or any other arbitrary level) is (1) there is a clunky sort of mechanic for PCs to accrue additional abilities as they earn more xp; (2) the number and variety of monstrous threats at level 21+ drops off quickly; (3) why make life easier for PCs at higher levels?
PCs are not supposed to ever get to a point where they can "kill Elminster forever." I don't give a fart about the EPIC NPCS MUST DIE movement - it's asinine, kinda like anarchy.
I think a sort of reverse should be true: advancement gets progressively harder as level increases. More xp are required for each level, and it's consistent for the encounters to get harder and for more of those encounters to be needed.
Maybe a nominally competent party of 5 can take down a barmy lich, but maybe it takes 6 or 8 to kill an ancient dragon and maybe the DM is doing something wrong if they can kill the tarrasque with less than 10 or 12. In theory, anything above a CR 30 should be nigh-indestructible by any number of mortals - keeping in mind that the bigger the group gets the more "intangibles" like strategy, coordination, anticipation, focus-fire, and so forth become issues.
I'm not entirely convinced, because I don't like level limits on principle. They feel like a weakness of computer games, a level on which tabletop gaming will always be better than online RPGs.
But with PC level limited, the challenges keep getting tougher but the PCs' power "on paper" tapers off. This means that endgame play relies increasingly on player skill rather than (to put it in MMO terms) "raiding and farming to gear up."
I can see some advantages to that... that's my thoughts.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 13:08:37
Just curious... what in game terms actually makes you make that statement (since rather than adding to the conversation you specifically felt the need to express a dislike of the option)? I say this, because the current state of a 20th level character in my viewpoint is pretty pathetic in power level to previous editions or to anything appearing in novels. For example in 3rd edition, you'd have 16 spell slots available for levels 6-9 at 20th level. You also don't have a large choice of prepared spells to choose between. Now you have 4 spell slots and usually only about 8 spells prepared to choose between at those upper levels. So, other than the argument of "the game was only made to go to 20", what would be your argument for not going beyond? The power level is obviously significantly decreased. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 11:53:10
I wouldn't. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Nov 2017 : 01:06:22
So, here's my take on paladins after some thought.
Paladin
***Spell Slots per Spell Level***
Level ProfBon Class 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
Bonus Features
21 +7 Channel Div 2/rest 4 3 3 3 3
22 +7 Divine Path I 4 4 3 3 3
23 +7 Imp Div Smite II 4 4 3 3 3
24 +7 Ability Score Imp 5 4 4 3 3
25 +7 Divine Path II 5 4 4 3 3
26 +8 Extend Divine Smite 5 5 4 4 3
27 +8 Divine Path III 5 5 4 4 3
28 +8 Channel Div 3/rest 5 5 5 4 4
29 +8 Divine Path IV 6 5 5 4 4
30 +8 Ability Score Imp 6 5 5 5 4
31 +8 Divine Path V 6 6 5 5 4
32 +9 Channel Div 4/rest 6 6 5 5 5
Channel Divinity 2/rest (paladin lvl 22) - at 21st level, the paladin can use their Channel Divinity twice between rests.
Divine Path I (paladin lvl 22) - At 22nd level, the paladin must choose a path to set the tone of how he will continue to serve his deity, and this path choice is used in all later divine path considerations. There are three paths to choose from, Valorous, Pious, and Mysterious. The Valorous path tends towards paladins that will seek combat and glory in the name of their deity. The Pious path tends towards paladins who seek to help others above all else. The Mysterious path is for those who seek knowledge or who delve magical secrets. Each of these paths grants the paladin knowledge of a spell that they can cast by channeling the divine, as well as providing any necessary components, time, or any other normal requirement for casting said spell. Casting said spell uses a channel divinity attempt and is treated as though cast with a 5th level spell slot.
Valorous - Guardian of Faith
Pious - Banishment
Mysterious - Dispel Magic
Improved Divine Smite II (paladin lvl 23) - at 23rd level, the paladin's improved divine smite damages increases from 1d8 to 2d8 radiant damage
Ability Score Improvement/Feat (paladin lvl 24) -
Divine Path II (paladin lvl 25) - At 25th level, the paladin gains knowledge of a spell that they can cast by channeling the divine. Casting said spell uses a channel divinity attempt and is treated as though cast with a 5th level spell slot.
Valorous - Flame Strike
Pious - Mass Cure Wounds
Mysterious - Scrying
Extend Divine Smite (paladin lvl 26) - At 26th level, the paladin extends the power of a divine smite to two weapon attacks instead of just a single attack. For instance, a paladin that uses a 2nd level spell slot for a divine smite adds 3d8 radiant damage to his next two weapon attacks.
Divine Path III (paladin lvl 27) - At 27th level, the paladin gains knowledge of a spell that they can cast by channeling the divine. Casting said spell uses two channel divinity attempts and is treated as though cast with a 7th level spell slot.
Valorous - Chain Lightning
Pious - Heal
Mysterious - True Seeing
Channel Divinity 3/rest (paladin lvl 28) - at 28th level, the paladin can use their Channel Divinity three times between rests.
Divine Path IV (paladin lvl 29) - At 29th level, the paladin gains knowledge of a spell that they can cast by channeling the divine. Casting said spell uses two channel divinity attempts and is treated as though cast with a 7th level spell slot.
Valorous - Prismatic Spray
Pious - Regenerate
Mysterious - Plane Shift
Ability Score Improvement/Feat (paladin lvl 30) -
Divine Path V (paladin lvl 31) - At 31st level, the paladin gains knowledge of a spell that they can cast by channeling the divine. Casting said spell uses two channel divinity attempts and is treated as though cast with a 7th level spell slot.
Valorous - Firestorm
Pious - Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion (often used as an impromptu dining room for the downtrodden by the few paladins to reach this level)
Mysterious - Sequester
Channel Divinity 4/rest (paladin lvl 32) - at 32nd level, the paladin can use their Channel Divinity four times between rests. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Nov 2017 : 13:11:50
Ok, well, I got started, so let's discuss the idea for say Paladins at a high level. Unlike eldritch knights and arcane tricksters, they reach level 5 spells by level 20 instead of level 4.... BUT they also don't have a continuing spell list. Also, they don't have cantrips. So, as I see it, the options would be to
A) Continue their spell list with higher level spells chosen from the cleric spell list
B) Give them the chance to pick and choose new spells from the cleric spell list for higher level spells.
C) Continue the number of spells that they get at lower levels, but give them additional specific spells X times per day as class features
D) Create a list of domains similar to clerics, but only giving spells.
E) Do not continue their spellcasting to upper levels, but give them a form of metamagic options to enhance their spellcasting more broadly.
I think of all of the above, option C intermixed a little with option D works best... as in giving them specific spells, but maybe giving them a choice between say 3 options (a war one, a life/light one, a knowledge/arcane one). I'm so inclined to go with matching them up to the clerical domains |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Nov 2017 : 16:59:30
Arcane Trickster
***Spell Slots per Spell Level***
Level Prof Sorcery Class Spells Cantrips 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th
Bonus Points Features Known Known
21 +7 F F, US 14 5 4 4 3 1
22 +7 AT A S 15 5 4 4 3 2
23 +7 4 AT M1 16 5 4 4 4 2
24 +7 5 A B I 17 6 5 4 4 2 1
25 +7 6 S C,I S P 18 6 5 4 4 3 1
26 +8 7 S M 19 6 5 5 4 3 2
27 +8 8 C P M 20 7 5 5 4 4 2
28 +8 9 AT M2 21 7 5 5 5 4 2 1
29 +8 10 I S P2 22 7 5 5 5 4 3 1
30 +8 11 A B I 23 8 5 5 5 5 3 2
31 +8 12 I S P3 24 8 5 5 5 5 4 2
32 +9 13 AT M3 25 8 5 5 5 5 4 3 1
Arcane Trickster's Find Familiar (Arcane Trickster 21) - You gain knowledge of the wizard's spell find familiar, and it does not count against your spells known. If you already know this spell as an arcane trickster, you may instead choose another spell known from the wizard's spell list from the schools of enchantment or illusion.
Arcane Trickster's Unseen Servant (Arcane Trickster 21) - You gain knowledge of the wizard's spell unseen servant, and it does not count against your spells known. If you already know this spell as an arcane trickster, you may instead choose another spell known from the wizard's spell list from the schools of enchantment or illusion.
Arcane Trickster Arcane Secrets (Arcane Trickster 22) Starting at level 22, the Arcane Trickster begins learning wizard spells not on the Arcane Trickster spell list. At every even level after level 22, add one more spell from the wizard's spell list to the Arcane Trickster's repertoire, but do not count this spell against their spells known. These spells may never be changed out. Spells learned may not be of a higher level than the Arcane Trickster can cast.
Arcane Trickster Metamagic I (Arcane Trickster 23) Starting at level 23, the Arcane Trickster begins to gain sorcery points similar to a sorcerer. They gain access to the subtle spell metamagic option and one other metamagic option chosen between distant spell, extended spell, heightened spell, quickened spell, and twinned spell.
Ability Score Improvement/Feat (Arcane Trickster 24)
Steal Cantrip (Arcane Trickster 25) - You may touch another spellcaster and attempt to steal knowledge of a cantrip. You force the creature to make a saving throw with its spellcasting ability modifier. The DC equals your spell save DC. On a failed save, you steal the knowledge of the cantrip and can use it for up to two hours. The creature cannot cast that cantrip until the two hours have passed. Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
Improved Spell Thief (Arcane Trickster 25) - You may use your spell thief ability up to two times between long rests. In addition, you may initiate the spell theft via a touch attack rather than a reaction to a spell cast.
Sleep Mastery (Arcane Trickster 26) - When you cast the sleep spell, you automatically raise the spells level up by 3 levels (so expending a 1st level spell slot would affect 11d8 hit points of individuals)
Charm Person Mastery (Arcane Trickster 27) - When you cast the charm person spell, you automatically raise the spells level up by 2 levels (so expending a 1st level spell slot can target 3 individuals)
Arcane Trickster Metamagic II (Arcane Trickster 28) The arcane trickster gains another metamagic option chosen from the options presented at level 23.
Improved Spell Thief II (Arcane Trickster 29) - you may use the spell thief ability up to three times between long rests. In addition, the stolen spell may be cast once without expending a spell slot if cast within ten minutes of the spell theft.
Ability Score Improvement/Feat (Arcane Trickster 30)
Improved Spell Thief III (Arcane Trickster 29) - you may use the spell thief ability up to four times between long rests. In addition, stolen spells are known by the arcane trickster for up to 16 hours instead of 8.
Arcane Trickster Metamagic III (Arcane Trickster 32) The arcane trickster gains another metamagic option chosen from the options presented at level 23.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Nov 2017 : 15:25:54
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
How would this work with the half-casters (Paladin/ Ranger) or ones who grab spells via sub-path like the Eldritch Knight?
Good question, and one which I was hoping to look at once this looked "stable", right after I figured the same thing out for warlocks (which should be closer to matching to my earlier scenario). However, I know this won't work unless we creep into everything just a bit. My intent to all this will be to try and keep things simple for epic leveling, somewhat similar to how it was done in 2nd edition (but with balance, unlike 2nd edition, hopefully).
So, for grins, let's hit up who are the other "casters"? Paladin, Ranger, Fighter (Eldritch Knight), and Rogue (arcane trickster)... then maybe throw out some ideas, and you can slap me around to get them done better (btw, thanks Diffan, I find you a good person for these types of discusssions).
Let's start with the eldritch knight. I have given some alternative rules for these in my complete red book of spell strategy for multi-classing them with wizards (to either keep this theme of abjurer/evoker or go necromancer with death guard martial archetype), so I'm betting that laid out rules for multi-classing will solve most people's GISH dreams. However, those rules are focused on making you a fighter with a lot of spellcasting, so these should have more focus on what the eldritch knight appears to be (a fighter who combines melee with minor magic). So, I'm thinking for them, since we have an established path they continue down this path. Eldritch Knight/Death Guard spellcasting should continue to expand, but let's say only to level 7 spells by level 32 (and I ended at 32, because I can't think of many Realms NPCs of higher than 32...). Note, in the below, wherever I say eldritch knight, death guard should be interchangeable.
Eldritch Knight
***Spell Slots per Spell Level***
Level Prof Class Spells Cantrips 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th
Bonus Features Known Known
21 +7 E W M 14 4 4 4 3 1
22 +7 EK A S 15 4 4 4 3 2
23 +7 I W M2 16 5 4 4 4 2
24 +7 A B I 17 5 5 4 4 2 1
25 +7 EK S M 18 6 5 4 4 3 1
26 +8 E W M2 19 6 5 5 4 3 2
27 +8 I W M3 20 7 5 5 4 4 2
28 +8 C A S 21 7 5 5 5 4 2 1
29 +8 22 8 5 5 5 4 3 1
30 +8 A B I 23 8 5 5 5 5 3 2
31 +8 E W M3 24 9 5 5 5 5 4 2
32 +9 I W M4 25 9 5 5 5 5 4 3 1
Extra War Magic (Eldritch Knight 21) - When you use your extra attack option, you may replace your third and fourth attacks with the casting of a cantrip. Thus, you perform two attacks and a cantrip.
Eldritch Knight Arcane Secrets (Eldritch Knight 22) Starting at level 22, the Eldritch Knight begins learning wizard spells not on the eldritch knight spell list. At every even level after level 22, add one more spell from the wizard's spell list to the eldritch knight's repertoire, but do not count this spell against their spells known. These spells may never be changed out. Spells learned may not be of a higher level than the eldritch knight can cast.
Improved War Magic II (Eldritch Knight 23) - When you use your improved war magic option, you may can make two weapon attacks instead of just one as a bonus action
Ability Score Improvement/Feat (Eldritch Knight 24)
Eldritch Knight Spell Mastery (Eldritch Knight 25) Pick one first level spell that you know and that in its spell description performs damage of a specified damage type. You may now treat this spell as though it were a cantrip, including not expending a spell slot when it is cast as a 1st level effect. This spell choice is final. Sleyvas' Notes: I'd expect most people to choose chromatic orb here for its versatility and damage. Some may choose lesser damage with magic missile but force damage.
Extra War Magic II (Eldritch Knight 26) - When you use your extra attack option, you may replace your fourth attack with the casting of a cantrip. Thus, you perform three attacks and a cantrip.
Improved War Magic III (Eldritch Knight 27) - When you use your improved war magic option, you may can make three weapon attacks instead of just one as a bonus action
Cantrip Attack Specialist (Eldritch Knight 28) - When using cantrips that MUST be combined with a melee attack (such as Booming Blade, Green-flame Blade, etc..) you may cast a second cantrip as a bonus action. This cantrip may be a different cantrip than the one combined with the attack, but it cannot be one which can be combined with a melee attack (i.e. no casting of both booming blade twice or booming blade and green-flame blade, etc..). Cantrips cast by Eldritch Knights are not improved by character level advancement beyond level 20.
Ability Score Improvement/Feat (Eldritch Knight 30)
Extra War Magic III (Eldritch Knight 31) - When you use your extra attack option, you may combine it with the casting of a cantrip. Thus, you perform four attacks and a cantrip.
Improved War Magic IV (Eldritch Knight 32) - When you use your improved war magic option, you may can make four weapon attacks instead of just one as a bonus action
What do you think? I'll try my hand at the arcane trickster next, since it does seem to kind of dovetail. I will also note here that unfortunately these two kind of break the mold that I was going with about not having "sub-class" break downs.
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| Diffan |
Posted - 25 Nov 2017 : 09:58:24
How would this work with the half-casters (Paladin/ Ranger) or ones who grab spells via sub-path like the Eldritch Knight? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Nov 2017 : 02:47:52
Hmmmm, so I went ahead and bought the Epic Options book. I'm skimming it, but so far .... not liking it. It feels like they're trying to tag 3.5e principles in where simple spell slot progression works. Essentially, it appears to be tagging on another ruleset that one would have to learn to run epic characters. Still, I want to read it more thoroughly. As we all know, a lot of times the concepts someone has can be polished or reworded to work with something else. Still, I'm looking at the wizard, and they get unlimited prepared spells per day.... and all 1st level spells become cantrips.... comparing that against what I have above makes mine feel very tame..... though I guess it could be said that mine may be worse since by level 32 you have so many high level spell slots..... or not if instead of leveling to level 32 you took his epic spellcaster feat 12 times and thus had 12 9th level and under spells castable using spell slots above level 9.... so yeah, feeling better about my stuff above not breaking a campaign.
Hmmm, he does have an epic spellcaster feat that does advance cantrip effectiveness at levels 22 and 29... actually a good point. I think I'll keep digging. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Nov 2017 : 01:55:52
Most of the above isn't alternate magic systems though. It builds on the foundations of the rulesets already there for 5e. For instance, the improved spell preparation is just changing the numbers of spells prepared (i.e. double the stat bonus). Similar with improving the spells known for bards/sorcerers, spell mastery for wizards, extra channel divinities for clerics. The magical secrets thing for bards is something they already have, so its simply advancing it and adding a little bit more to it. The druid I actually went a different direction, focusing on special abilities (not really fantastic ones mind you, but useful nonetheless.... I actually picture druids beyond level 20 as rarely appearing in their humanoid form again.... so being able to talk with others while still in the form of a songbird, etc.. fits.... and at level 28 getting poison and disease immunity seems minor enough).
By the way, I am writing this up because since no one else has done it in any kind of official way, but I want Zulkirs, etc... above level 20..... so, I guess I should come up with some kind of epic rules to include with my stuff. Granted, I have seen some epic rules up on dm's guild, and I may buy one of them (not paying $10 for the other without someone telling me its balanced). I did these first, then I figured I'd take a look at the warlock to see how to change him up, since pact magic has a little different spin to how it works. In fact, at some point, I wonder if pact magic users can finally break the pact and form their own bond with a source.... maybe even start getting their own warlocks.... this would seem to fit with hitting epic levels (that could be an interesting level 28 ability, but it would need some thought on balance). What to do for the other classes (i.e. barbarian, fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, etc... no clue as yet). My main thing is to provide capability, while trying to stay in the bounded accuracy rules that have come out for 5e, such that a couple or trio of 15th level wizards could say be a threat to say a 28th level one.
One other thing I will also note is that even at level 32 according to my table, the sheer volume of high level spells castable per day isn't close to that which was possible in 3.5e. In 3.5, after level 20 the spell slot advancement quit and you had to take feats for extra spells, but given that at level 20 in that system you would have 36 spells memorized at level 20 that still outnumbers the 5e numbers. However, in the above, at extreme levels, while you can't hurl out tons of high level effects, you eventually start getting to where you can have a few more options prepared (which is what I prefer.... wizards who know HOW to cast a lot, but may not have the power to do all that they have in their head).
Anyway, anyone with a strong understanding of the 5e ruleset, I'd really appreciate a look over. I may go download some stuff from DM's guild as well.... I see something called epic options for $2.00. If someone has actually perused the one called epic characters on DMs Guild for $9.99 I'd appreciate feedback. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Nov 2017 : 18:28:44
[code'+'] and [/code'+'] is your friend. 
Minus the '+' signs, of course.
I've toyed with similar 'alternate magic systems' for years and years. The one I came up with for 3e I liked a lot (and so did my players), and it was very simple. I haven't tried to rebuild the system in 5e... yet.
One idea I've played around with but never fully developed was the 1,2,3 system, which I got the concept for from 3e, and some articles here and there (in Dragon and on the WotC website). There seemed to be two different 'tiers' of Feats. Necessary (EVERYONE takes 'em) Feats, and then all those wishy-washy situational Feats. And then we also had the background Feats, which almost always fell in with the not-so-great ones. We also had getting stat pts. every three levels.
I tried to turn all that into a three-tier system, saying you got a type '1' perk, then next level you get a type '2'', then a type '3', and then it would repeat. Type 3 I guess include the stat bonus, but I wanted to come up with other things that could replace that (3e was big on alternate rules with 'replacement levels', and I really liked that). Basically, I was just trying to simplify what they (WotC) was doing piecemeal in their articles. Primary Feats would fall into the first tier, and Background/regional/*meh* feats with be type '2'.
The other thing is that you get all three at level 1(at least if you are human), but I also had a separate house rule that everyone started at level 3 (unless you didn't want to - you could choose to start younger). I had been doing that back in the 1e/2e days anyway, because the first two levels characters were really underpowered, and tended to die a lot (especially wizards). So I just started everyone at lev. 3. I didn't bother with that in 3e, until I started developing stuff for the Hordelands region (and beyond, in K-T). It seems Tuigan children know how to fight. By 16, they were expert fighters from horseback. So I decided that level three would be age 17, with lev. 1 being 13 an level 2 being 15 (-1 for barbarians, -2 for 'savages'). So by 16 years of age, a Tuigan barbarian would be level three, and be able to take my 'Horselord' PrC (zero penalties for fighting from horseback, including archery). Then I decided to apply that across the board, and bring back my 'start at level 3' rule.
This solved quite a bit of problems, and was very handy for NPCs. A seventeen year old human male who's been an apprentice blacksmith would be a lev. 3 Expert. This makes perfect sense in that kids DID apprentice at early ages. I hated that a PC could become more proficient at someone's life profession than they could, and that resolved a bit of that. And when coupled with my above idea for the 'tiered' leveling perks, it would mesh with the existing rules about humans getting three feats at level 1 (in 3e). I never took the tiered leveling beyond the theoretical stage, unfortunately.
Oh, and of course I would get rid of the three feats at level one, since they were starting at level three. They were getting them anyway (sort of), because they were starting higher, so I felt it was a balancing thing. |
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