| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 13:51:28
Now that I'm translating my Neverwinter campaign to 5e entirely, I'm going to advance the timeline of my campaign a few years, to "match" the timeline in the SCAG.
However, if I advance the timeline 10 years to match the SCAG, that would advance the ages of some of the characters (one of them would be 60 years old by 1491, making the character almost a no-no for his player's tastes). While some players can be convinced that an old veteran is cool, or that they can retire such characters and make new ones, others (most of them, in fact) are too attached to those characters to suggest such a thing.
So, I'm wondering how to advance the timeline without ruining the campaign for my players? I will appreciate any suggestion you can offer me.
Thanks in advance  |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 26 Nov 2017 : 03:20:19
Weren't there a few adventures which involved characters entering some other (extraplanar) domain and, upon returning, discovering that mere days became the passing of years? |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 25 Nov 2017 : 23:01:56
I would preffer planar travel where time works differently. Faerie seems like a good example and ten years are not so huge a change. So your Aboleths can send whole party into another plane and after their adventure there they find on return that time has moved without them. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Nov 2017 : 12:54:36
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'd thought each clone had one point less Constitution, becoming increasingly fragile (and eventually nonviable) after repeated iterations?
That would be one way to control things as well, but I haven't seen any similar ruling in any version of the game that I recall (granted 1e and 2e are way hazy after all this time, but I could see 1e having said ruling since it also had a loss of con when you died didn't it).
Of course, one thing not brought up is the fact that if you create a younger version of yourself, would that version not be healthier. After all wouldn't that be why you would do it. 5e doesn't have aging effects though, unlike 3/3.5e wherein you grew weaker but more wise. In the end, I don't think this would be an effective way to control things. At the upper levels, a true loss of level is TYPICALLY just as hard of a hit as a loss of Con... that being said, we still don't know the rules for leveling past level 20 in 5e.... which makes me wonder... wait, let me catch myself and actually start a new thread rather than derail this.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Nov 2017 : 05:56:00
I'd thought each clone had one point less Constitution, becoming increasingly fragile (and eventually nonviable) after repeated iterations? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Nov 2017 : 03:49:00
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wow, that revamped clone spell means that *any* wizard can do the Manshoon thing, now, and it pretty much removes the need for any anti-aging techniques. And there's no reason to seek lichdom, either, with that spell around.
Thinks I that someone did not think that through.
Well, bear in mind, you can still only have one clone. Also, if someone finds and destroys your clone (which must be kept somewhere that it can survive mind you) THEN kills you... you're screwed. So, there's some advantages still to things like lichdom (and disadvantages too). For instance, a lich when killed is reformed and they don't have to prep a new body (that being said, there is metagame stuff like them having to use larvae periodically). The clone spell costs cash and you basically have 4 months of time that you better tiptoe around, because until the new body is matured you are in a delicate state.
That being said, I agree, someone did not think through the repercussions. There should be some kind of extra expense, and perhaps a higher version of the spell (granted going from 8th to 9th level isn't a major thing), to create a younger version. In fact, creating a younger version it might be interesting if you have to give up a level in order to do this action. This could explain away why so many high level casters are centuries old but still not exceptionally high in level (because maybe they only gain 2 levels in 40 years, and then have to expend 1 to become young again).
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Nov 2017 : 16:49:49
Wow, that revamped clone spell means that *any* wizard can do the Manshoon thing, now, and it pretty much removes the need for any anti-aging techniques. And there's no reason to seek lichdom, either, with that spell around.
Thinks I that someone did not think that through. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Nov 2017 : 14:13:42
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
That spell is in the PHB, right? I should check.
from 5e PHB.... major change from previous versions.
This spell grows an inert duplicate of a living creature as a safeguard against death. This clone forms inside a sealed vessel and grows to full size and maturity after 120 days; you can also choose to have the clone be a younger version of the same creature. It remains inert and endures indefinitely, as long as its vessel remains undisturbed.
At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return. The clone is physically identical to the original and has the same personality, memories, and abilities, but none of the original’s equipment. The original creature’s physical remains, if they still exist, become inert and can’t thereafter be restored to life, since the creature’s soul is elsewhere.
Now, combine the above wherein the party sets up some hidden place with their clones in it. Then perform the trick several have recommended of petrification. In fact, setup some very nasty encounter with the party that ends with them all getting petrified. This technically doesn't kill the character, so they won't go to their clone. Setup this petrification that it maybe happens due to a place, but not a creature. Make it heroic, for instance maybe they have to kill some far realms monstrosity, and it has come to harvest some powerful source of magic that the characters chase it to. For instance, the Maerchwood in Chessenta was turned into a petrified forest. What if the party is sent there, only to enter some area that begins to petrify them as some sort of spellplague after effect. In the end, nothing they do to the far realms entity seems to hurt it... but they notice that the petrification is hurting it as well... so they have to keep it held in place long enough to petrify. You could even have it that the petrification only starts to affect them AFTER it affected the far realm entity, to make it more sinister.
Skip forward to the spellplague, and the world begins shifting. Their statues crack, killing them, and their souls go into their clones. This can have the added bonus of all the party's magic items that were on their person go bye bye.... as maybe they went to Abeir. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Nov 2017 : 04:14:00
You could always just Rip Van Winkle them. Have them fall asleep somewhere, and just wake-up 10 (or whatever) years later. You can even run a Fey encounter and have it end that way (they dance to a fairy fiddler, until they pass out with exhaustion under a tree...).
If you want to take care of both problems (You did say your vain players didn't want to 'get old', right?), have something happen to them, like petrification (they're walking along and a medusa jumps out in front of them. The few that are able to turn to run find a basilisk smiling at them). However you do it, have them wake-up somewhere weird, like an elven grove, or in a laboratory, or even in a museum (they were statues, after all). The person that 'saved' them is sitting right in front of them (very 'dark & mysterious'), and he has 'x' number of potions of youth (I know of at least three fountains you can get that stuff from). Turns out, even though they were 'frozen', they still aged. He has a deal. He needs something. Maybe its an item, or maybe a book, or maybe even a person. Doesn't matter - you go get that thing for him, and the potions are yours.
Or you could just walk out the door and find the nearest retirement community. 
(bottom line is, you get to advance the timeline, AND your players get to 'reset' their age, perhaps even younger than before). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Nov 2017 : 03:44:20
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for the exact nature of the "time shift", I'm going to follow dazzler idea, and left it mysterious.
I would counsel against this idea, myself... It is my opinion that players would not like having something major like skipping ten years just hand-waved away. Even if they don't know the mechanism at first, give them some hint or clue that tells them there is an explanation.
Otherwise, your players may start wondering what else will be simply hand-waved away, and whether or not it's worth the effort to engage in something that might be rendered moot by DM fiat.
There's a heck of a difference between a timejump before a new campaign, and a timejump in the middle of one. I've actually been in a timejump in the middle of a campaign, and it was not to my liking.
At least, that's my opinion. You know your players; I don't. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Nov 2017 : 00:37:21
I recall potions of longevity had a drawback, though ... each one consumed has a cumulative % chance of reversing all longevity magic. Not a real issue when drinking only a few. But a real problem after consuming a dozen and continuing to rely on them for survival past "maximum" natural lifespans. At least as written in AD&D 1E/2E rules.
The elixir of youth was not as potent but didn't have this drawback. It was only more exotic and difficult to obtain/manufacture than longevity versions. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 23 Nov 2017 : 00:02:18
As my players are dealing with the Abolethic Sovereignty, I going to use the aboleths to do the deed. Either sent the characters forward in time intentionally, or the time was "compressed" around the characters just because they were closer to Far Realm's stuffs.
But, I also like Markustay suggestion of 20 hours days in the Realms.
Either way, I see the potential of what you say: dealing with the consequences of one way timetraveling.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 22:46:26
The standard catch-all in the Realms is portals. The party happens to walk into one which crosses through the Demiplane of Time, they arrive at the "same" (or some "other") place in the Realms ten years later and discover that it was a one-way trip. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 21:57:14
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
All of these however still require accounting for the lapsed ten years. What happens to thier personal possessions over the ten year gap. Even the Potion of Youth has this problem. Jast the characters would have been alive to over see them.
There might be better ideas, however this are what I can think of right now.
I don't have problem with advancing the story of the campaign and addressing this kind of stuff... the main concern for my players is the age of their characters (a bunch of smug player's, they are  )... so, timetraveling could be a solution. Or the potion of youth. Is this item in the DMG?
Well potion of longevity existed in 2nd Edition, removed 10 years of aging. An internet search appears to indicate there is a 5th edition version. https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/om.php?vf=potion-de-longevite
quote:
When you drink this potion, your physical age is reduced by 1d6 + 6 years, to a minimum of 13 years.
In any event Ed has spoke about anything that was in the Realms prior years still is possible in more current editions, though of course much rarer to find. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 21:38:02
Petrification is a good solution, and it can preserve equipment, except that those with weak Constitutions may not survive. Perhaps have the party stoned by a medusa and rescued by another party years later. Or "rescued" by some wizard guild/cabal so that the party can be used as some kind of (disposable) pawns in someone else's battle.
Phezult's sleep of ages would be good. Or some kind of miscast time shell. Or a wish.
Or some sort of excursion to another plane which has "out of sync" timeflow (such as the Astral) could explain lack of aging over a ten-year "absence".
I think the specific mechanism isn't as important as the opportunities presented by advancing the setting by a decade. PCs might find a lot of things have changed, familiar NPC contacts have aged or retired or moved on to different things. Old loyalties and priorities have been tested. A storyline in which the PCs are required to be present one decade later (or are required to be absent in the intervening years) and were thus deliberately put on ice for noble or evil reasons could be rewarding, drop clues but force the PCs to figure things out (and complete their task or seek vengeance or otherwise resolve things) for themselves. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 21:15:18
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just multiply their Torillian (canon) age by .83 (or 83%).
Doing this makes the character lose 5-7 years,
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now here's the weird thing - Faerûn DOES have actual clocks, but each is a unique creation of wonderful craftsmanship. The concept of 'hours' isn't supposed to exist in The Realms. Thus, I have no idea how they display time (I guess its one of those things we aren't supposed to think about too hard). 
Nobody has ever asked Ed about this? I find the question incredibly interesting. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 20:22:40
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Do you have a calculating formula for converting 20 hour days into years? Even if I use the Umberlee's Fist or the Symphony of Madness (the Far Realm/Spellplagued-charged super weapon of the Abolethic Sovereignty), I do like that solution as well (because yes, I've notice those same problems reading 2e sourcebooks).
Just multiply their Torillian (canon) age by .83 (or 83%).
What makes it simpler (than on a more advanced world, like modern or steampunk), is that FR doesn't even use a 24 hr. clock. If a person were to travel to Toril from Earth wearing a watch - and it was an older, purely mechanical one - they might notice, but otherwise, they'd just have a little bit of 'jet lag' for a couple of days, and get used to it.
Now here's the weird thing - Faerûn DOES have actual clocks, but each is a unique creation of wonderful craftsmanship. The concept of 'hours' isn't supposed to exist in The Realms. Thus, I have no idea how they display time (I guess its one of those things we aren't supposed to think about too hard).
But if they DID use hours & minutes, than I would say that their minute was only 50 of our seconds. And that wouldn't even get noticed by a world-hopper unless they did indeed have a (non-electric) watch. Simply by reducing the amount of seconds in a minute makes the rest of the clock work out just fine. 'Hours' are a human construct, so they don't have to be clearly defined from setting to setting, so when your setting of choice says the world has a '24 hr day', then they could just mean 24 of their hours. I used to do some Scify gaming as well, and that's when this sort of thing really comes into play. In most fantasy RPG settings, you don't even have to address it.
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Years and years ago I read the Green Star series by Lin Carter; it was a world filled with enormous trees that would dwarf even Earth's Redwoods. Everything else on the planet was equally huge... except the humans. I don't recall any animals - its was supposed to be a very primitive world with just giant insects, IIRC. Now, the thing I found interesting was that the main character traveled there from Earth as a 'spirit' (he had an out-of-body experience), and although he thought everything was GIANT, he came to realize that he had no way of actually knowing that. It could have just been that the human-like race were teeny tiny. I thought that was very cool concept, and one I would have loved to explore in D&D (like, what if the people from a certain RPG world were very little compared to 'Earth normal'? What if haflings were from such a world, where everything was size-appropriate? An astral traveler viewing them would just think they were humans, probably).
So time, size, etc are all 'relative', and unless you have a way of measuring that world's norms against your own, you'd have no way of telling. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 19:51:54
Do you have a calculating formula for converting 20 hour days into years? Even if I use the Umberlee's Fist or the Symphony of Madness (the Far Realm/Spellplagued-charged super weapon of the Abolethic Sovereignty), I do like that solution as well (because yes, I've notice those same problems reading 2e sourcebooks). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 19:28:30
Or you could just use Umberlee's Fist.
There is an easier to read version HERE, but I posted that link above so that you KNOW its 'official', and not homebrew.
I used that to explain some of the weirdness concerning the Utter East, and the anachronistic arrival of the Northerners. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 19:23:36
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Just pretend that they didnt age or that the year was always 1491. No need to explain anything, just ignore the problem completely.
THIS is definitely the simplest route; I use it myself - I use stuff straight out of the Volo's Guides if there is no new lore overwriting it. For game purposes, it really doesn't matter AT ALL. Now, when it comes to us 'conjecturing' (pretty-much 99% of what we do around here), we need hard explanations, so that doesn't work. Also, if we are trying to go beyond the theory-stage and actually create something for the DM's Guild, we need to think about these things.
But 10 years? Thats nothing - just use a mechnanism I created way back when I first started running The Realms (and I still considered myself a 'GH DM' first and foremost) - I say that there are only 20 Earth hours in a Torillian day. It really is the ideal fix (because in the 1e/2e lore, I found... problems. Like women having babies in their 50's type problems, and people living WAY too long). Magic is all well and great, but you have to set your fantasy on a foundation of reality, otherwise it just looks like a sloppy mess.
That being said, if you use this simple trick, our 50 year old pregnant lady becomes only 41. Still a bit old, but not really unrealistic (and YES, I know women CAN have kids in their 50's, but that's a fairly recent situation thanks to the miracles of modern medical science).
Your 60 year old Torillian character would only be 50 in Earth years. 50 is not old. I'm 54 and I can still do plenty of things guys half my age can't do. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 18:40:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In fact... Give them a bad guy who somehow traps them, just to get them out of the way while he does his thing. 10 years later, the characters are freed.
Now they've got to deal with whatever the bad guy did... Plus, there's all the issues of missing ten years: children (siblings or offspring) will have grown up, significant others will have moved on with their lives, anything owned will now be in someone else's hands... And those left behind for 10 years may be actively hostile for having been abandoned for so long, even if the PCs couldn't do anything about it.
Hmmm... I guess I have and idea with this. Currently, they are dealing with the Abolethic Sovereignty (the aboleths that live in the Chasm). Maybe the aboleths do something, or perhaps the fact that they are in a place warped by the Far Realm can do the trick...
When they return to Neverwinter, not only they will be forced to search for another route to return (as the Chasm is now sealed), but also they will find a changed city that now accepts Neverember as its rightful leader (a plot point, as one of my players is using the Alagondar heir background)... and the rest of the Realms changed by the Sundering.
As for the exact nature of the "time shift", I'm going to follow dazzler idea, and left it mysterious. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 18:03:03
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
If Elminster and Volo and Artus and Driz'zt can live through the centuries without showing more gray hair …… what's stopping your campaign's own heroes?
Verisimilitude is overrated anyways.
Elminster is practically immortal due to his status as a Chosen of Mystra. Volo spent some time as a statue. Artus is a Chosen of Auril, and is wearing an artifact on his finger. Drizzt is a drow, and a young one, at that. He's got centuries left before he shows his age. |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 18:00:34
If Elminster and Volo and Artus and Driz'zt can live through the centuries without showing more gray hair …… what's stopping your campaign's own heroes?
Verisimilitude is overrated anyways. ;)
On second thought…. just follow dazzerdal's first suggestion. Just pretend (you and your Players must agree to this) that the campaign timeframe had been in the 1490s all along. So long as you and the Players are in agreement, there is no problem.
If your older Campaign Notes and campaign histories had written some earlier number, then just erase it and revise it to "1490s" or the corrected date. Done deal.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 17:20:26
Leave it mysterious. Let them spend years puzzling it out. You dont even have to figure out what the cause was yourself. Listen to player theories and about what happened to them during the time jump and play up to those theories (so if they think its a matrix style error then through the occasionaly deja vu moment at them, or if they believe a particular enemy is behind it keep throwing hints he is involved in current plots and have him appear but be out of reach at busy moments.
Its a tactic Ed used plenty of times apparently. I can see how it would work and keep the players interested in solving a mystery and making them think they are on the right track |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 16:19:49
Some sort of stasis, with them not aging until coming out of it, would be best. Magical imprisonment or being turned to stone for a while would work.
In fact... Give them a bad guy who somehow traps them, just to get them out of the way while he does his thing. 10 years later, the characters are freed.
Now they've got to deal with whatever the bad guy did... Plus, there's all the issues of missing ten years: children (siblings or offspring) will have grown up, significant others will have moved on with their lives, anything owned will now be in someone else's hands... And those left behind for 10 years may be actively hostile for having been abandoned for so long, even if the PCs couldn't do anything about it.
Alternatively, let them age and retire... And then someone needs their help again -- perhaps an NPC they'd aided before. And the NPC really needs their help, badly -- so much that he's got a potion for each PC that will roll back those aging effects. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 16:02:25
In my home Realms Campaign, I incorporated the concept of temporal instability into the event know as the Spellplague... So, any PCs or NPCs or locations or whatever that "disappeared to Abeir" or got "consumed by Blue Fire", etc... Could have been sent forward into the "current" year, so that I can maintain Canon events AND be able to use anything that 4E supposedly wiped off the map, or PCs/NPCs that would have died from old age (they didn't age they just jumped forward in time)...
I'm not saying I've done this for everything, but I like having the door open to incorporating the things we like from the "Old Realms" into the "New Realms" without ignoring the Spellplague. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 15:43:01
That spell is in the PHB, right? I should check.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Just pretend that they didnt age or that the year was always 1491. No need to explain anything, just ignore the problem completely.
Sadly, this is a solution that I botched since the beginning, as the campaign started in 1479, and we have been advancing the timeline between adventures (so, by the current year in my campaign the caracteres have been adventuring for 2 years).
So, while tempting, using this solution would screw the internal logic of the campaign...
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
All of these however still require accounting for the lapsed ten years. What happens to thier personal possessions over the ten year gap. Even the Potion of Youth has this problem. Jast the characters would have been alive to over see them.
There might be better ideas, however this are what I can think of right now.
I don't have problem with advancing the story of the campaign and addressing this kind of stuff... the main concern for my players is the age of their characters (a bunch of smug player's, they are )... so, timetraveling could be a solution. Or the potion of youth. Is this item in the DMG? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 15:07:46
5e clone spell. They're now 20 years old with raging har... I mean hormones. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 14:55:05
Moving though time. If the concern is aging characters there are a few options.
Placed to stasis, some how frozen so they do not age.
A one way time portal, moving them ten years into the future.
Potion of youth, removing ten years of aging.
All of these however still require accounting for the lapsed ten years. What happens to thier personal possessions over the ten year gap. Even the Potion of Youth has this problem. Jast the characters would have been alive to over see them.
There might be better ideas, however this are what I can think of right now. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 14:50:46
Just pretend that they didnt age or that the year was always 1491. No need to explain anything, just ignore the problem completely. |
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