| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 02:08:03
Help required! The lore says that trade is normally done by road and ship, but I'm worried that the ability to create gates/portals/teleportation circles (and use them for trade) may damage this lore. I'm hoping someone can provide an explanation for why this doesn't happen.
Firstly, was the creation of gates and portals and teleportation circles and such possible pre-3e?
Secondly, taking that wealthy cities could potentially employ mages to create teleportation circles at least since 3e (per FRCS):
Wouldn't a wealthy city such as Mirabar pay mages to transport their mineral wealth to Waterdeep rather than having it carried to Waterdeep by road and ship?
I found an Ed-post, related to the use of teleportation by flying ships, where he said this:
quote:
...and ANY teleportation of large conglomerations of disparate elements (a ship with all its fittings, its hold full of cargo in various containers, the crew and all of their belongings and weapons, even the rats stowing away) is fraught with danger and difficulty, the least of which is the various individual elements ending up in different end spots.
BUT I'm thinking that probably doesn't affect people carrying things - for example, players with sacks of gold coins don't tend to end up with their gold scattered all across Faerun. And it certainly wouldn't affect them carrying just a few items. So for instance, 12 people passing through a gate could carry 20x 1 pound gold trade bars (that's only 20 items on their person) worth 1,000gp from Mirabar to Waterdeep easily, thus transporting 12,000gp worth of wealth. Taking the road and the ship just seems not worth the risk. If such a gate could be secured by the forces of Mirabar and Waterdeep, it would prove quite beneficial to their economies.
I'm sure Ed has thought about this at some point, and if anyone has any answers I'd be very interested. I'm wondering, as per query 1, if the creation of magical travel was simply less possible in the pre-3e Realms. As of 3e, a 9th level wizard could create a gate if they knew the Teleport Spell and had a wealthy backer. This is even easier post-Spellplague with Teleportation Circle being available at Level 9 as well. I'm worried that, unless a solution has been created in the past, I may have to remove such easy teleportation from my home game to maintain verisimilitude.
Help! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 22 Oct 2020 : 07:28:05
Acolyte Wendolyn,
You may find this scroll useful for your work, though it is not 100% on the teleportation circle, it definitely digs into the economic issues!
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23324&SearchTerms=economics
Best regards,
|
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 20 Oct 2020 : 16:50:30
My apologies for resurrecting this scroll, but I am not aware of a newer one, and I was worrying about the role that Teleportation Circle might play in my campaign and its ramifications, economic and otherwise, for the wider Realms.
I had the following idea for trying to constrain the widespread use of Teleportation Circle: Teleportation Circles can be dispelled by Dispel Magic at range if the dispeller knows the sigil sequence. A Wizard can somehow 'punch in' the sigil sequence while casting Dispel Magic and it disrupts and unravels the teleportation circle at the destination (assuming the Ability Check for Dispel Magic is sufficiently high to dispel a 5th level spell). Furthermore there is no way for the guardians of the circle to know who dispelled the circle, it cannot be traced, the only thing they know if that whoever dispelled their circle must have known the sigil sequence.
I think this ideas allows for a simple way for Teleportation Circles to be destroyed in a sort of asymmetric-warfare style. It would also mean that sigil sequences would be shared only with people you trust, else it could come into the hands of one that disliked said circle (an enemy? an evil wizard? a trade rival?) who could, at very low cost and risk, destroy said circle.
It also avoids the 'magical arms race' that was mentioned in earlier in this thread. You don't need a group of more powerful wizards to police the use of portals and teleportation circles of less powerful wizards (giving rise to an infinite regress problem -- who or what prevents the more powerful group from using teleportation circles?). Instead low level wizards, capable of casting Dispel Magic, are sufficient to disrupt an expensively established teleportation circle. Similar to how a small group of terrorists are capable of destroying something very advanced and beyond their capability to build. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 20:51:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Humans have usualy...
No, they don't. They have all the same problems you listed for goods (getting sick, dying of exposure, requiring a specific diet, having travel time issues, being valuable for kidnappers-assassins, being generally obnoxious, etc.., etc..). Yet, there is a basic price to move "a person" from point A to point B by the mile. Now, I've taken that to mean "space is rented in the transport type to move a humanoid mass of small to medium size for a planned distance at that fare" and not "guaranteed delivery of said person in good health and on time with no complications whatsoever."
Also, I discovered a little wrinkle in the discussion of gates, portals, and spells to move cargo from point A to point B - the target cannot be an unattended object. Ergo, nothing can be thrown through, dropped in, or just sent. Everything must be carried and there is a limit to how much can be hauled per person. Without machines like pulleys & cranes to take the stress of the workload, even two way travel will quickly exhaust the labor force unless it is huge enough to provide frequent breaks for differing crew shifts. This doesn't put portal trade out of the realm of possibility but it does increase the fiscal, social, and potentially political pressures on our erstwhile hypothetical merchants. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 22:43:53
Humans have usualy universal cost of transport - you get place in the wagon, something to eat and drink. For goods you have to consider more things.
Is it valuable? than I need a protection.
How much I need to transport? Is it one or more wagons or do I need something bigger like boat to move it for larger distances.
How far do I need to move it? Is there a water way nearby? Where can I store it? Is it perishable?
General idea is that with larger amount the cost per weight/piece goes down but you also have to deal with more problems that create aditional costs... |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 03 Feb 2017 : 18:27:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of wizards... For the cost of not even an hour's work -- and easy work at that -- they get a steady, risk-free income. Seems a pretty good arrangement to me.
Ehhhh... We're talking about a minimum of a 17th level wizard or specialty cleric, who could have only gotten to that level by spending his youth studying for more than a decade then taking on the most dangerous of undertakings against some serious odds of survival for even more years, who can acquire just about anything he needs from his own organizations or conjured by his own power. I can't imagine a person like that, driven for a lifetime to achieve greatness the likes of which a fraction of a percentage of the population has even witnessed let alone done, becoming... a lazy lackey. If you compare that time spent studying and gaining experience & skills to modern life the most immediate professions that I can correlate are highly successful doctors, lawyers, and scientists that are at the top of their fields. How many of those would enter long term employment doing things that do not enhance their skills, burnish their images, or even help them grow professionally in their fields? Okay, I concede that there may be situations where such individuals would do something short term to bring in quick money, but their professions bring in much more over the long term.
By the by, has anyone extrapolated the basic cost to move a ton of goods per mile? I mean, I've been checking the 3.5 costs to cast spells and noticed the passenger fees as the cost to move a person per mile. Conservatively, a person should equal 100 pounds of goods so a ton by ship costs 2gp per mile and by wagon would be 6sp per mile. The basic cost of a teleportation circle is 2530gp for the casting and amber dust material component. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Feb 2017 : 12:55:11
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
And why would a wizard play cargo mover to make someone else rich? This is a guy who has some awesome cosmic power at his disposal and he is going to spend it shipping merchandise for some storekeepers?
A lot of wizards like to research things, which requires buying books and lab equipment and reagents and material components and all sorts of other stuff that isn't cheap. Working for a merchant could be a good arrangement -- get up in the morning, do some research, stop at lunch time and cast a couple spells, then go back to doing your own thing. For the cost of not even an hour's work -- and easy work at that -- they get a steady, risk-free income. Seems a pretty good arrangement to me.
If I could live comfortably and do what I wanted the rest of time, only working for an hour a day, I'd be all over that. And I doubt I'm alone in saying that, in the real world or any fictitious world you can think of. |
| Khaelieth |
Posted - 03 Feb 2017 : 10:16:20
The economic system of the Forgotten Realms/D&D is fubar. Do not try to make any sort of sense of it - therein lies madness.
quote:
That means in 1e/2e, magic was truly 'wonderous' and special. You had to find most of the 'kewl stuff'. 3e took the Monty Haul style of early play and turned into THE way D&D was played. Back when I first started playing D&D, if you find a +1 sword in a treasure pile you felt blessed; now players are like, "whats this crap?" Unfortunately, that stripped-away nearly all sense of accomplishment. The only thing you could brag about in 3e (and editions moving forward) was your 'power level', and it became all about 'builds', and power-gaming (what we used to call 'min-maxing' back in 2e).
OD&D player: "I recall the time I found that wand of magic missiles!"
3e+ Player: "WHAT? You can only juggle three planets at a time?"
 {I think I ate to many 'memba berries' this morning}
I remember my first magical item - a bag of holding <3 Bit underwhelmed that it was a bag at first, but very useful!
But D&D/FR is a high fantasy game. I always saw the portal feat et al as requiring some more actual IC learning - the party would need to find a portal. Then study it. Prototypes, etc. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Feb 2017 : 19:42:34
Better yet, have the party run into an exact copy of themselves (and everyone else is just 'gone'), and they repeat everything the party says and does.
That ought to drive them nuts.  |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 02 Feb 2017 : 18:00:59
because he might not have the skills for business. SO they might have made a arrangement. Mage will cast a teleportation circle once a week for the merchant and he will obtain hard to find reagents for his experiments. This way both benefit from this deal.
But I agree entirely that DM has to make things up so he could entertain players. If they would demand that I play by the same rules as they I would certainly try and next game would be about characters waking up in nonspace where is only one NPC except them (on similar level). |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 01 Feb 2017 : 22:22:42
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
... the DM can't just ''do stuff.''
What?
The only way the game exists is because the DM is explaining things from how the DM is imagining it. The players are interacting with the DM's imagination! Everything that isn't the players dictating actions for their characters IS the DM just doing stuff. That's why I am such an advocate of player's rights to ensure that the DM doesn't overstep the bounds of player-to-character control. That said, the DM has the right to "do stuff" and he is under no obligation to explain it so long as he is fair to his players.
But I feel like we are straying with all the talk of >2 vs. <3.x version elitism. Maybe we should look at what the problem is regarding the trade using magical means. How about tackling it from the other end and saying that an arcane caster of the appropriate level is impossible to keep on retainer? They want to study, experiment, travel, and certainly do not want to answer to some fidgety merchant that is more interested in turning 5 silver coins into 1 gold. And why would a wizard play cargo mover to make someone else rich? This is a guy who has some awesome cosmic power at his disposal and he is going to spend it shipping merchandise for some storekeepers? |
| Faraer |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 21:07:26
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Firstly, was the creation of gates and portals and teleportation circles and such possible pre-3e?
Gates, for the most part, no -- they are, in Ed's words, 'awesome, scary "ancient magic" things', the knowledge of their making lost to the present-day human Realms, though it remains in the hands of a few individuals such as Larloch, who guard it jealously. The relatively easy process in the 2001 FRCS was a rules artefact of the 'PCs can do anything' design philosophy of the time, and I don't count it as Realmslore.quote:
In the original/'home' Realms campaign, the only gates that weren't already guarded by a power group (or being battled over by several power groups) were those lost (forgotten save to legend and fragmentary in-dungeon lore, making gate-use instructions valuable treasure), known to be 'somewhere' in ruins, dungeons, or old palaces (all of them potentially dangerous places to outsiders), or known to be 'trapped' (generally: dangerous or fatal to use except to those who know how to use them properly). So swift, casual, or large-volume overland travel was simply impossible.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know, we have two different names for them... who used 'Gates'? Ed?
Yes, Ed's word is 'gates', taken from Zelazny's Amber and Farmer's World of Tiers, and also used by C. J. Cherryh and other authors at that time. 'Portals' is another rules artefact that came along when the 3E designers decided gates needed distinguishing from the gate spell. Some folk in the Realms may well use 'portal' and other alternatives, but 'gate' is the standard term. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jan 2017 : 05:35:48
I think that applies for all rulesets -- there are all sorts of gamers. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 10 Jan 2017 : 01:09:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
OD&D player: "I recall the time I found that wand of magic missiles!"
3e+ Player: "WHAT? You can only juggle three planets at a time?"
I'd make that O/1/2E player. There has been a big player movement to the Rules in the Book Only. In 2E I always used all sorts of ''strange, unknown and unknowable'' magic...pattered off of the Writing of Ed Greenwood. And players would just shrug and accept it. 3e+ players stop the game to wine and complain and rant if they encounter something not in the rulebooks. They make the common rant of ''I thought we were all playing the same game here'' and things like that. Even with gates, that have a line about possible ''strange and unusual gates'' right in the rulebook...they will say that does not count as it does not say ''how'' they are strange and unusual and the DM can't just ''do stuff''. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 02 Jan 2017 : 12:46:48
I have dealt with this and many other magic related problem just by stating that there are no generic magic items/spells. All of those known items and spells are examples of working items/spells that somebody invented/created in some area and definite numbers. So there is commonly known spell of Magic Missile in Western Faerun but in the East they use Iomon's invisible dart (with similar effects) or Llaroch's minor drain (popular in Thay). There are teleportation circle spells but they are definitely not widely known and there would be a huge difference between spell and permanent gate/portal. You could try to create such portal but it will be very costly to invent and even then there is no guarantee it will be without errors or specifics (it only operates in moonlight of the full moon). There are some relicts of old ages like Imaskari portal built for Northern mercenaries (Raumathar) but it is keyed to the Warleader's sword that characters had to find in order to use this portal (adventure).
Point for me is to make magic special and unique not generic and available as presented in newer editions. This stops almost all player's tendencies to exploit it and in case they do it is a reward for clever use of found resources. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 22:26:57
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Gates/Portals operate differently (and they had those in ST as well) - many of them you can look-through and see whats on the other side.
Can't remember many of that in canon, and Ed posted that there's supposed to be away/in-between stage.
Quite so - MY BAD. 
I have so many things going on in my head at once, i even contradicted myself.
I think there is teleportation, which is its 'own thing' (and as I said earlier, like 'hacking' the universe itself).
And then there are Gates/Portals, and there are (at least) two kinds. You know, we have two different names for them... who used 'Gates'? Ed? Then I would assign that to the more 'common' (if such things could even be called common) FR portal, which most-likely utilizes the Road of Stars and Shadows, and does have an 'in-between' space you must navigate through.
And then maybe use 'Portals' for the Imaskari-style 'wormhole' variety, where you literally fold-space so two points meet (not all of them would be 'see through', BTW - I imagine quite a few looked - and worked - very much like Stargates). Perhaps the 'see through' affect was artifact-level. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 21:55:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's the kind of shenanigan that results in very pissed off PCs. Inconveniencing them is one thing, arbitrarily and permanently taking their loot away is another.
...
Maybe this could work as a one-off for an NPC to suddenly get some nifty stuff -- but I'd not do that to PCs. Especially since I love bags of holding and tend to try to get them for my characters.
And that's how the cycle of "too convenient" starts.
For another baseline, compare this to all other extradimensional interfaces being explosively incompatible. 
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
I started this post several times and just failed to have the time to properly make a statement so, please, forgive this hasty scrawl. I thought that highly magical civilizations DID actually do mass teleportations, portals, and gates of people, armies, and other things, like when Illusk evacuated its population with the help of Netherese Arcanists
According to Netheril: Empire of Magic, the enclaves did use gates routinely.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Gates/Portals operate differently (and they had those in ST as well) - many of them you can look-through and see whats on the other side.
Can't remember many of that in canon, and Ed posted that there's supposed to be away/in-between stage.
quote:
I assume you mean 4e?
It actually began in 3e,
I mean 3e, there was an actual book - Diablo II: Diablerie.
Okay, TBH, there was also one back in AD&D2, but you'd have to go full I.U.D.C. for comparable look&feel when magic is involved, what's with easily interrupted spellcasting and excess of "save or die". Though "I hit it again with mah sword", maybe.
quote:
In 1e/2e, there were always things (like magical devices) that players simply could NOT make themselves. You could introduce any sort of weird effect or magic, etc, and didn't need to explain it. 3e rules were like an albatross hanging abut a DM's neck; they not only tied the DM's hands, they also gave way too much power to the players, who suddenly could question everything the DM did (NOT IMG, BTW).
Yes, but the first half here is applying this very approach retroactively. In that "No readily available way" =/= "no way". If most of the Really Cool Stuff requires whole quests, that's fine.
quote:
That means in 1e/2e, magic was truly 'wonderous' and special.
This particular argument was seen almost exclusively when someone tries to smuggle something past Sanderson’s First Law of Magic.
As item crafting goes, for example, detailed Volo's Guide approach looks fine to me. In that it gives more specific step-by-step, but they add to the amount of things-to-do rather than detract.
quote:
You had to find most of the 'kewl stuff'. 3e took the Monty Haul style of early play and turned into THE way D&D was played.
Technically, not necessarily so - often you could use this as guidelines / bones for the same approach. As in, interpret it as the crafter cannot get away with a pile of "20000 GP", but needs 20000 GP worth of specific components, most of which needs to be discovered and procured, rather than being readily available.
quote:
Back when I first started playing D&D, if you find a +1 sword in a treasure pile you felt blessed; now players are like, "whats this crap?"
It's in part GMing style.
But practically, yes, 3.x assumes MUD Magic-Mart to the point of integrating it in game balance mechanisms - e.g. CR is dependent on the party at given levels being able to beat certain damage resistance, but not the other).
quote:
{I think I ate to many 'memba berries' this morning}
Eyh, you got your grognard cred to maintain, all right. Don't we all.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 21:16:17
The Assam Portal is another I found recently - a nice bit of lore to go with it; I like how the author 'nerfed' it with the one-way thing. It could help with trade, but its an 'imperfect' solution.
EDIT: The Kara-Tur 'Sea Portal' in the Dragonmere I feel is a MAJOR headache - its two-way, and Cormyr should have seized its end of it (Shou Lung apparently controls BOTH ends, which means they maintain a presence... IN THE DRAGONMERE!)
EDIT2:
On the other hand, the Spellplague and The Sundering (pt.II) could have made a mess of all of them, in all sorts of fun ways (rewired their connections? Got them all scrambled? What JOY!) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 21:11:24
As far as trade, there do exist established teleportation/gate based shipping methods in the realms (from previously printed lore). The most recent I remember specifics on I believe was called Weatherstone Mercantile. As mentioned before, there are risks and it is very expensive - this makes it MUCH more cost effective to ship in traditional methods. Like normal shipping, the bigger the cargo the higher the price, and specialty items have specialty prices.
PS - totally with Markustay on the effects of 3rd E on magic... its less magical now, I guess :) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 20:39:33
I think teleportation is instantaneous, and is like 'hacking' the universe itself. You're basically tricking the universe into thinking something is in the wrong place, and it 'shunts it' into what it thinks is the correct space (and BTW, I think this is entirely possible, using electromagnetic fields). You can't 'look through' a teleport - it just doesn't work that way - its more like a Star Trek style transport (so there is possibly a few seconds in which you are 'in transport', but thats it).
Gates/Portals operate differently (and they had those in ST as well) - many of them you can look-through and see whats on the other side. This is a totally different type of (magi-)tech - you are 'folding space' (like a wormhole) and connecting two points. Transitive planes (which are actually dimensions) work in much this manner - (nearly) all dimensions overlap, but some are physically smaller than others. We've seen this in a few novels when people used them to fast-travel (in the Moonshae novels they did this with Faerie, and in other novels - most notably the RotAW - we see them do this with the Plane of Shadow). Permanent portals/Gates probably access some mostly unknown dimension that is super-tiny (the first dimension? It should be only a single point in Time & Space). Thus, thousands of miles only pass through an angstrom unit of space in that dimension, so its like its not even there at all (just an impossibly small 'film' between locations). When you create gates to other worlds, thats even easier - you are just 'punching a hole' between the 'veil' that separates the worlds. Its the same physical location - you are just piercing another quantum reality (D&D is tricky - this is only true of some worlds; most D&D worlds exist within the same dimension, just removed physically in other Crystal Spheres).
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
[quote] Unfortunately, you will run into these problems from time to time if you think too hard about things. Another option is to make magic rarer--the more common magic is, the bigger the problem it represents.
That's kind of how it used to work.
The madness with magic spammed to Netheril level and beyond (while pretending it's all still quasi-medieval) started only in Diablo Edition.
I assume you mean 4e?
It actually began in 3e, and even with all the love I have for that edition, it did make quite a few mistakes. In FR, it dropped the 'uncertain 3rd person' and opted for the omnipotent 1st person person approach to the lore (which completely nukes any ability to go back in and adjust inconsistencies), and in regards to D&D and the rules themselves, Players were given EVERYTHING. In 1e/2e, there were always things (like magical devices) that players simply could NOT make themselves. You could introduce any sort of weird effect or magic, etc, and didn't need to explain it. 3e rules were like an albatross hanging abut a DM's neck; they not only tied the DM's hands, they also gave way too much power to the players, who suddenly could question everything the DM did (NOT IMG, BTW).
That means in 1e/2e, magic was truly 'wonderous' and special. You had to find most of the 'kewl stuff'. 3e took the Monty Haul style of early play and turned into THE way D&D was played. Back when I first started playing D&D, if you find a +1 sword in a treasure pile you felt blessed; now players are like, "whats this crap?" Unfortunately, that stripped-away nearly all sense of accomplishment. The only thing you could brag about in 3e (and editions moving forward) was your 'power level', and it became all about 'builds', and power-gaming (what we used to call 'min-maxing' back in 2e).
OD&D player: "I recall the time I found that wand of magic missiles!"
3e+ Player: "WHAT? You can only juggle three planets at a time?"
{I think I ate to many 'memba berries' this morning} |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 19:44:16
I personally wouldn't make all gates dangerous all the time... I just wouldn't have them transport every single thing to pass through every single time.
I don't think I'd give more than a 5% chance for a gate mishap, and it wouldn't be that high unless there was a lot of magic involved, or other transdimensional magics -- like my examples of a bag of holding or 100 soldiers all with magic arms and armor.
And even then, even if that 5% chance is rolled, it's still likely to be a minor thing, like the bag that temporarily can't be accessed.
For normal operations, I'd give only a .5-1% chance of a mishap, and that'd still be something really minor. Maybe the third guy thru, his second wand loses a handful of charges. Or maybe for an hour a magical dagger only does 1 point of damage. Or maybe it's just a thing of a 50gp gemstone disappears from someone's purse, either totally consumed or randomly appearing elsewhere in the Realms.
And that would be it. In most cases, whatever happened would be pretty much unnoticeable.
Now, for the orc horde that was mentioned... Sure, we know thousands of orcs were sent through portals... But we don't know that all of them made it. If even 1% of the orcs disappeared, who'd notice in a horde of tens of thousands? |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 18:50:24
I started this post several times and just failed to have the time to properly make a statement so, please, forgive this hasty scrawl. I thought that highly magical civilizations DID actually do mass teleportations, portals, and gates of people, armies, and other things, like when Illusk evacuated its population with the help of Netherese Arcanists, the Aryvandaar magical inserted troops passed Miyeritar's defense during the Crown Wars, the elf built Fey-Alamtine to evacuate the population when Ityak-Ortheel comes a knocking, and one instance I do not clearly remember of an orc horde being sent clear across the realms. And this is beside the already established portal networks that are in adventures, settlement descriptions, or legendary backdrops of the setting. If the elves, some of the most magical & magic item carrying beings in Faerun, are still playing with portals then how dangerous can they really be? For that matter, is than an attempt to "save the setting" because it is starting to look more and more like a "let's screw the players" kind of response.
D&D magic is sexed up technology made for a tactical battle map with little to no thought to the ramifications outside of squad level play. Most of the spells impart no danger to the caster, the effects are available on demand, and they are as reliable as a new flashlight with fresh batteries. This is the system to which the forgotten realms was adapted and altered several times. As the Magic of Faerun book had said - it is what we have, warts and all. It is also the accepted rules of play. I wouldn't go changing them without the players' consent even if the story and world needs it to make more sense from my point of view. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 17:43:45
You could also go another route with transdimensional magic items when taking them through portals and gates. It makes sense to say that the magic of the items interferes with the magic of the gate/portal. After all, the portal/gate functions by bending space and time, and transdimensional magic items function similarly. You could make what happens somewhat random on a 2d6 roll.
12: The portal/gate explodes. An area the size of 1d6 city blocks is destroyed in a fiery eldrich magical explosion, killing everyone caught within it horribly.
11: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a two-way connection with the Feywild.
10: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a one-way connection with a random area of the Nine Hells.
9: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a one-way connection with the Shadowfell.
8: You destabilize the portal/gate. It becomes inactive for 1d6 weeks.
7: You get lucky. The portal/gate continues to function normally.
6: You destabilize the portal/gate. It becomes inactive for 2d6 weeks.
5: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a one-way connection with the Shadowfell.
4: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a one-way connection with a random layer of the Abyss.
3: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a two-way connection with a random layer of the Abyss.
2: The portal/gate explodes. An area the size of 1d6 city blocks is destroyed in a fiery eldrich magical explosion, killing everyone caught within it horribly. The veil between one of the lower planes (either the Nine Hells or the Abyss) is also weakened in the location, occasionally allowing beings on the other side to slip into the Prime Material World.
16.67% chance of rolling a 7.
13.89% chance of rolling a 6 or 8.
11.11% chance of rolling a 5 or 9.
8.33% chance of rolling a 4 or 10.
5.56% chance of rolling a 3 or 11.
2.78% chance of rolling a 2 or 12.
Something like this could force some interesting decisions on players who have transdimensional magic items. Do they leave the magic items behind to cross the portal/gate? Do they make the gamble? The players themselves shouldn't be impacted--they will keep their items and successfully make it to their desired destination. It is the portal/gate they are using that will be impacted. If they only have to travel through it once, what harm is there in the gamble? Of course, they could then later learn that their actions destroyed six entire blocks of Waterdeep, killing numerous people, and weakening the veil between the Abyss and the city--allowing demons to slip through and begin terrorizing the city... all because they wanted to travel further North quickly AND take their bag of holding with them. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 17:22:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I should also think that the amount and type of magic going through a gate would be a factor in its chances of misbehaving.
Random warrior with a magic sword and magic armor? Not much of a chance of a problem.
100 warriors with magic arms and armor? That's a lot more magic, and that much magic would doubtless interact with the magic of the gate in some way -- a strain, if nothing else. And therefore a greater chance of a gate misfire.
Transdimensional magic like portable holes and bags of holding? Even more of a chance for an oops.
I'd still keep these chances low, and I might twist the end results further -- maybe you didn't lose anything, but your bag of holding is inaccessible for an hour after going thru the gate. But that's how I'd handle it.
On a related note, I loved the magic items quirks article in an old issue of Dragon. Sure, you've got a nifty wand of lightning there, and it's reliable... But maybe the wand has an odd habit of levitating when underground, or it buries itself at the bottom of your pack every time you put it in there... Fun stuff! 
Interesting idea... your bag of holding and someone else's bag of holding "switch" what they're linked to. So, some other guy becomes suddenly rich by traversing a portal.
That's the kind of shenanigan that results in very pissed off PCs. Inconveniencing them is one thing, arbitrarily and permanently taking their loot away is another.
Besides, how does the connection get reset to another bag, unless that bag is coming the other way at the exact same time?
Maybe this could work as a one-off for an NPC to suddenly get some nifty stuff -- but I'd not do that to PCs. Especially since I love bags of holding and tend to try to get them for my characters.
Exactly, it would have to be an instance of both passing at the same time. The party might be hired to try to figure out where whatever it was that was in the bag is suddenly gone to. Maybe it was a dangerous magic item. Maybe it was simply a lot of wealth, but with a family heirloom as well. Maybe it contained a holy relic of some faith. Maybe it was something so huge/heavy that it had to be magically shrunk, put in the bag or portable hole to reduce the weight issues of transportation, and then removed on the other side..... hell, maybe it contained Mjolnir and the ground directly underneath it that was slowly scooped into the bag forcing Mjolnir to fall into the bag (yeah, I know that's pushing it). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 16:26:18
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I should also think that the amount and type of magic going through a gate would be a factor in its chances of misbehaving.
Random warrior with a magic sword and magic armor? Not much of a chance of a problem.
100 warriors with magic arms and armor? That's a lot more magic, and that much magic would doubtless interact with the magic of the gate in some way -- a strain, if nothing else. And therefore a greater chance of a gate misfire.
Transdimensional magic like portable holes and bags of holding? Even more of a chance for an oops.
I'd still keep these chances low, and I might twist the end results further -- maybe you didn't lose anything, but your bag of holding is inaccessible for an hour after going thru the gate. But that's how I'd handle it.
On a related note, I loved the magic items quirks article in an old issue of Dragon. Sure, you've got a nifty wand of lightning there, and it's reliable... But maybe the wand has an odd habit of levitating when underground, or it buries itself at the bottom of your pack every time you put it in there... Fun stuff!
Interesting idea... your bag of holding and someone else's bag of holding "switch" what they're linked to. So, some other guy becomes suddenly rich by traversing a portal.
That's the kind of shenanigan that results in very pissed off PCs. Inconveniencing them is one thing, arbitrarily and permanently taking their loot away is another.
Besides, how does the connection get reset to another bag, unless that bag is coming the other way at the exact same time?
Maybe this could work as a one-off for an NPC to suddenly get some nifty stuff -- but I'd not do that to PCs. Especially since I love bags of holding and tend to try to get them for my characters. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 09:54:19
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I should also think that the amount and type of magic going through a gate would be a factor in its chances of misbehaving.
Random warrior with a magic sword and magic armor? Not much of a chance of a problem.
100 warriors with magic arms and armor? That's a lot more magic, and that much magic would doubtless interact with the magic of the gate in some way -- a strain, if nothing else. And therefore a greater chance of a gate misfire.
Transdimensional magic like portable holes and bags of holding? Even more of a chance for an oops.
I'd still keep these chances low, and I might twist the end results further -- maybe you didn't lose anything, but your bag of holding is inaccessible for an hour after going thru the gate. But that's how I'd handle it.
On a related note, I loved the magic items quirks article in an old issue of Dragon. Sure, you've got a nifty wand of lightning there, and it's reliable... But maybe the wand has an odd habit of levitating when underground, or it buries itself at the bottom of your pack every time you put it in there... Fun stuff!
Interesting idea... your bag of holding and someone else's bag of holding "switch" what they're linked to. So, some other guy becomes suddenly rich by traversing a portal. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 30 Dec 2016 : 09:13:35
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Teleportation shatters certain assumptions we make about the world. You have two options: you can handwave it away (see Ed's response that you quoted)
How so?
quote:
Unfortunately, you will run into these problems from time to time if you think too hard about things. Another option is to make magic rarer--the more common magic is, the bigger the problem it represents.
That's kind of how it used to work.
The madness with magic spammed to Netheril level and beyond (while pretending it's all still quasi-medieval) started only in Diablo Edition.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I worry that even with binding sites, the wealthy will definitely make use of them in cities, and thus the major traders sponsored by these wealthy folks, will make excessive use of teleportation circle or created portals.
In canon? They kind of do. But it's not Diablo-grade easy and there's also security and policing of city entrances to consider (hide it well or end up busted for smuggling). So the first stage is to find a wizard able and willing do it... and trustworthy... without revealing your plans to the rivals and enemies in process.
quote:
If we follow the limits on teleportation set in Secrets of the Magister, it limits the people going through per use to 12, +horses and pack animals. It also specifically prohibits caravans and armies using them. But, 12 people with their animals could move a LOT of wealth through those portals. It just seems way more cost-effective.
And they do. But again, one of the counterbalances is need for secrecy.
Also, the gates can be broken or compromised - saddle the travellers with an enchantment, haunted or by some entity looking for fresh bodies to possess. If yours don't have anything like this yet, a common-sense way to keep them clean is, again, to make sure they remain unknown to those who can do something like this.
quote:
A disincentive to a wealthy city creating a permanent teleportation circle or portal might include reduced security, with having a known teleportation site near to the city. Though I feel this could be countered with appropriate protections.
Yup.
Also, excessive density of extradimensional shenanigans may cause very unhealthy results.
quote:
I'm still really hoping there is some sort of reasoning in the lore for why trade doesn't occur in this way. I'm sure Ed would have an easy response to it, he's been solving problems like this for decades now!
It does.
For gates: see Ed's answer linked above.
For teleportation: Aurora's Emporium stores are linked via teleportation circle network.
Note that these differ from gates in several important ways. Which includes lesser amount of goods transported per activation and (strongly implied) activation frequency. Practically, this means access is regular, but not at will, thus it's much like traditional transportation, only faster: the representative in your local outlet records the custom orders and stock in need of replenishing, once per day sends a request to the central warehouse, then receives a bunch of supplies. If there's a lot, supplies will be sent in magically shrunk form. If there's still too much - sorry, milord, wait until they sent yours, and consider ordering stuff not right before a holiday the next time. The existence of this bottleneck means they cannot simply use the teleportation platform twice.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Dec 2016 : 02:31:07
Well, we know for a fact that magic was 'more potent' back during Imaskar (before the Netherese and Karsus screwed it all up, and Mystra and/or Ao had to put restrictions on the whole shebang).
But I'm thinking the Imaskari used something different for their portal tech; perhaps their portals were always 100% reliable (note the 'were' - even their magic breaks down over time). If most of FR's Gates used The Weave (as I suspect - the 'Road of Stars and Shadows' is the actual 'webwork' of the Weave itself), maybe they tapped into something completely different, like transitive plane technology (wormholes?) Unlike the Weave (Arcane) based gates which apparently are akin to the WoT's 'The Ways' - there is an actual, physical realm you are passing through (this is demonstrated in Elminster's Daughter - the Imaskari Gates literally 'folded' space.
The only reason why I would go this route with the Imaskari is that they despised anything to do with gods, and relying on 'The weave' for their portals meant being beholden to Mystryl. I like to think the Netherese were more like 'clever children' playing with matches; most never bothered to study the underpinnings of magic itself, but rather, took a shortcut with the Nether Scrolls and just started seeing how big a 'bang' they could generate. I like to picture the Imaskari being more like theoretical physicists - they understood the primal forces they were working with, and can do much more subtle things with it. Just my take is all.
I like where you went there, Wooly. Once again, i liken magic to computers: The more stuff you have 'running at once', the more likely you'll have some serious issues (and I would imagine a person 'in transit' in a portal is like an app, or how transporters work in Star Trek - you are 'stored in memory' {The Weave itself?} until you arrive at the other end.) Send through too much at once, and it overloads. Magic Items would indeed take up more memory, because they themselves are 'hacks' on the physics of the universe (so you're basically storing tons of 'viruses' in your magical portal for a few seconds). |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 21:41:27
Maybe the magic was changed due to The Imaskari importing large numbers of slaves, and the Orcgate wars? Interesting subject... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 17:05:14
I should also think that the amount and type of magic going through a gate would be a factor in its chances of misbehaving.
Random warrior with a magic sword and magic armor? Not much of a chance of a problem.
100 warriors with magic arms and armor? That's a lot more magic, and that much magic would doubtless interact with the magic of the gate in some way -- a strain, if nothing else. And therefore a greater chance of a gate misfire.
Transdimensional magic like portable holes and bags of holding? Even more of a chance for an oops.
I'd still keep these chances low, and I might twist the end results further -- maybe you didn't lose anything, but your bag of holding is inaccessible for an hour after going thru the gate. But that's how I'd handle it.
On a related note, I loved the magic items quirks article in an old issue of Dragon. Sure, you've got a nifty wand of lightning there, and it's reliable... But maybe the wand has an odd habit of levitating when underground, or it buries itself at the bottom of your pack every time you put it in there... Fun stuff! |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 16:42:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And aside from the true accidents, malfunctions, and Archmages mucking about, there are probably certain creatures living in whatever dimension these portals pass through, which can also 'snatch' people every so often. Maybe its the 'dimension of magic' itself (in FR terms, that means people are actually 'Weave Walking').
That's quite horrifying when you think about it. The magic to create the portal bends time and space, but what happens when time and space become "frayed" or "thin" to the point that you slip through them? I imagine it being similar to stepping into some Far Realm-like dimension, where you end up trapped and incapable of escaping. ...or worse, something that lurks outside of space and time manages to crawl out of one of those portals? That is a potential alternate explanation for some of the aberrant beings running around Toril like beholders and mind flayers. |
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