| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| EltonRobb |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 21:20:25
Since I'm using the 1e encyclopaedia, I can design Sembia the way I'd like too, right? And, the Sembia peacewall not withstanding, later Sembias were fleshed out because of the Horde Invasion if I remember correctly.
So, do you like the 1e Sembia better? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 May 2020 : 02:59:23
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Saurials (a race of reptilians from an alternate world) do seem like a redundant complication in a new setting which introduced Dragonborn (a race of reptilians from an alternate world), Their removal from the setting was likely just part of a "simplification" process. There's plenty of villains who could be blamed, the Shadovar were ones chosen for this dirty deed.
I dunno. They were a small, isolated population. It would have been just as easy -- easier, in fact -- to simply not mention them.
Besides, they were already complicating things with the dragonborn -- by giving the race the same name as the earlier dragonborn. So they took a race that's utterly dedicated to serving a draconic deity, kicked them to the curb without so much as a sentence, and replaced them with an identically-named race -- a race named for the very creatures they despise!
That's not simplifying anything at all.
Further, they also deliberately reused names of supplements such as Drow of the Underdark and Draconomicon. That, too, was needlessly complicating things.
So given some of the other things they did, I don't see this removal having been done to simplify things. They didn't pursue simplification anywhere else, so it seems unlikely that was the goal here.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 May 2020 : 00:54:22
Saurials (a race of reptilians from an alternate world) do seem like a redundant complication in a new setting which introduced Dragonborn (a race of reptilians from an alternate world), Their removal from the setting was likely just part of a "simplification" process. There's plenty of villains who could be blamed, the Shadovar were ones chosen for this dirty deed. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 May 2020 : 14:57:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Sometimes the villain exterminates saurials, exploits random victims, bullies children, and kicks puppies for no sensible reason at all - it's just to demonstrate despicable depth of villainy to the audience.
It's a cheap narrative trick (and a common manipulation in politics and media) which makes the audience want/demand the villain gets taken down and to make the hero look more necessary/heroic.
Can't have a great hero - can't be a great hero - unless you have a great villain to defeat. And lacking a great villain, an inexplicably, randomly, wantonly dangerous/destructive villain will suffice.
That doesn't address how they found the Lost Vale, though... And since the most famous saurial survived, and since the saurials haven't appeared outside of one web enhancement and a handful of novels, wiping them out doesn't really have that much impact on any but a minority of fans -- and those fans were not the target demographic for the 4E Realms, anyway.
That's why I think this was some individual at WotC that hated the saurials for some reason, and just wanted to remove them from the setting. I have no idea who this would have been or why they felt that way, but it's the only explanation I can see.
I choose another method entirely... since we've started talking about the saurials of the Lost Vale. They were found. They fled. The shadovar had no idea how many there were, where EXACTLY they lived, etc... Perhaps the shadovar was led to believe that a small village of maybe a hundred or so was the entirety of their civilization. Maybe they didn't want word to get out that someone escaped them and so they spread a false narrative. Maybe some even believed it internally that they HAD destroyed them all. Meanwhile, maybe the ended up in the jungles south of Kara-Tur with their "cousins" the Lacerials. Maybe they ended up down in Chult. Maybe they ended up in the area between Unther and Chessenta that was a lost land with dinosaurs (it had pleisosaurs and the Tuuru/Pteranodons), and during the spellplague they went to Abeir and now they're back. Just to check, in the hundred years between the spellplague and the second sundering, did we ever hear anything about Dragonbait? Or was it only after the return?
HMMMMM, you know.... IF Dragonbait had been in Abeir.... how much would you buy Tyr … if he needed a mortal to be his avatar... him temporarily taking up Dragonbait (or rather the reverse, Dragonbait willingly taking on Tyr and allowing him to use his body)? Not sure what I'd do with it, but I just feel like it could prove to be an interesting story. I've got this picture in my head of the "ship of the gods" island also being sent to Abeir, and the ship of the gods is surrounding by all these winds that even the Primordials can't break through. Maybe some of them have to bring the light of Ra artifact there (forget its name). All these gods in "lesser avatar" form inhabiting mortal bodies having to work together on some cross country trek to get there to have dream magic create avatar bodies for them to inhabit....
For that matter, I could definitely buy Artus Cimber taking on Ubtao if he had been in Abeir.... could be interesting if that's how the two of them met. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 May 2020 : 06:20:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Sometimes the villain exterminates saurials, exploits random victims, bullies children, and kicks puppies for no sensible reason at all - it's just to demonstrate despicable depth of villainy to the audience.
It's a cheap narrative trick (and a common manipulation in politics and media) which makes the audience want/demand the villain gets taken down and to make the hero look more necessary/heroic.
Can't have a great hero - can't be a great hero - unless you have a great villain to defeat. And lacking a great villain, an inexplicably, randomly, wantonly dangerous/destructive villain will suffice.
That doesn't address how they found the Lost Vale, though... And since the most famous saurial survived, and since the saurials haven't appeared outside of one web enhancement and a handful of novels, wiping them out doesn't really have that much impact on any but a minority of fans -- and those fans were not the target demographic for the 4E Realms, anyway.
That's why I think this was some individual at WotC that hated the saurials for some reason, and just wanted to remove them from the setting. I have no idea who this would have been or why they felt that way, but it's the only explanation I can see. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 May 2020 : 00:52:08
Sometimes the villain exterminates saurials, exploits random victims, bullies children, and kicks puppies for no sensible reason at all - it's just to demonstrate despicable depth of villainy to the audience.
It's a cheap narrative trick (and a common manipulation in politics and media) which makes the audience want/demand the villain gets taken down and to make the hero look more necessary/heroic.
Can't have a great hero - can't be a great hero - unless you have a great villain to defeat. And lacking a great villain, an inexplicably, randomly, wantonly dangerous/destructive villain will suffice. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 18:26:25
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-They did those poor Saurials dirty.
And for me, it's one of the most problematic aspects of Shade.
We previously had a near-deity, who knew the Lost Vale was there and was actively searching for it, remain unable to find it when he was directly over it. So how did Shade find it?
And why? The saurials weren't a threat to them and there was no cause for enmity between the two peoples -- at least no more cause than there was between Shade and any other group not directly opposed to Shar or Shade.
So it doesn't make sense for them to be looking for it, to have found it, or to have wiped out the saurials.
Honestly, it comes across as just another heavy-handed editorial fiat: "We don't like the work of these prior authors, so let's get rid of it." The existence of a deliberately isolated small group of people in a hidden area is something that can easily be ignored, so someone at WotC must have had some issue with the saurials for that bit to have been included. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 May 2020 : 17:49:26
-They did those poor Saurials dirty. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 23:40:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Honestly, they already had ties to Vaasa from the novels, with them giving some kinds of "darkswords" to people from there made of black glass that ignored magic. They could have done something like the warlock knights of Vaasa that was done for 5e and put them in opposition to Damara and Impiltur (and possibly working with the moonsea cities, not conquering, but possibly using them as a trade port, etc..). Maybe turn Vaasa into less of a monster infested backwater, such that the surrounding areas might not even see them as all that bad. The problem as I see it is that they were a single city for the most part, but suddenly they would have the numbers to hold vast swathes of territory. That being said, maybe they DID have huge cities on the other side in the plane of shadow, but we were never given that description. While I can see them coming to Faerun and possibly hiring some mercenaries, I honestly don't see a lot of human merc groups wanting to sign up with the shadovar. They're creepy and their leaders appear to be undead like beings in many cases. I could see monster tribes folding to serve them out of fear though.
That being said, I can tell you if they had done that, the first words out of people's mouths would have been "why are they just redoing the witch king"
I think this would have been a more logical development. And sure, some might have thought it was a Witch-King redo... But that's better than wondering how they got the firepower to level Zhentil Keep and take over Sembia and -- for no readily apparent reason -- find the Lost Vale and wipe out the saurials. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 19:54:45
Honestly, they already had ties to Vaasa from the novels, with them giving some kinds of "darkswords" to people from there made of black glass that ignored magic. They could have done something like the warlock knights of Vaasa that was done for 5e and put them in opposition to Damara and Impiltur (and possibly working with the moonsea cities, not conquering, but possibly using them as a trade port, etc..). Maybe turn Vaasa into less of a monster infested backwater, such that the surrounding areas might not even see them as all that bad. The problem as I see it is that they were a single city for the most part, but suddenly they would have the numbers to hold vast swathes of territory. That being said, maybe they DID have huge cities on the other side in the plane of shadow, but we were never given that description. While I can see them coming to Faerun and possibly hiring some mercenaries, I honestly don't see a lot of human merc groups wanting to sign up with the shadovar. They're creepy and their leaders appear to be undead like beings in many cases. I could see monster tribes folding to serve them out of fear though.
That being said, I can tell you if they had done that, the first words out of people's mouths would have been "why are they just redoing the witch king" |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 04:34:59
I think Halruaa would've been the most logical target for the Shadovar, assuming their objective was to acquire an existing nation.
Sembia was just a dumb choice to my mind. But I suppose it allowed the shades to install themselves as an immediate narrative threat the Heartlands without really overturning precious Cormyr, the Dales, etc.
And, to be honest, they're shades - nominally operating from the shadows, in the shadows - conquest, imperialism, and hegemony don't really seem fitting at all. They should've been deployed more underground, in darkened streets and alleyways, building strength through thieves' guilds and "criminal" organizations. Zhentil Keep would've been a fine target - to remove competitors and absorb their assets - while hoity-toity Sembia wwould've been better viewed as an endless resource of pawns, dupes, and wealthy victims. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 03:43:47
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Say you wanted to established returned Netheril as a credible threat; where else would you have had them conquer instead?
I wouldn't have had them conquer anyone, at least not openly. I'd've had them backing various movements, individuals, and groups in a lot of areas, pushing things the way they wanted, without openly revealing themselves.
They would have, pardon the pun, worked exclusively from the shadows. Instead of being in the open, beating you in the face, saying "Hey, look at us! We're a major threat!" they would have remained in the background, perhaps suspected to be involved in this thing or that group, but nothing would be known for sure. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 14 May 2020 : 00:40:24
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Say you wanted to established returned Netheril as a credible threat; where else would you have had them conquer instead?
I would want to cast a massive spell to re-energize the mythallars and raise the ancient cities up from beneath their obscurity and ruin, devastating the landscape while summoning up military establishments (with potentially intact teleportation circles) and start nerfing cities by floating these sketchy reanimated islands right over the seats of power in Faerun. Perhaps this would be possible if the goddess of Magic had a bone to pick with someone and bargained for giving the mythallars back for 48 hours.
Or, just turn the empire's power eastward and pit them against the other empires WOTC has ignored. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 13 May 2020 : 23:54:58
Say you wanted to established returned Netheril as a credible threat; where else would you have had them conquer instead? |
| Seravin |
Posted - 13 May 2020 : 19:06:45
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I like my Realms more fleshed out, so I prefer 3E Sembia to the extent it was fleshed out. That said, I'm fine (to the extent I am fine with what happened in 4E) with Shade taking over Sembia. Makes sense. They had money, were strategically placed, and manipulatable.
Except, it was unnecessary and boring. Sembia was unique in the Realms and had it's own thing going as the mercenary army hiring, gothic city, merchant-run neutral place that hated elves but generally wasn't nearly as evil as Hillsfar or Zhentil Keep in a cold war with Cormyr.
The Shade already had a place, Anauroch, with their floating cities. I don't understand why bringing in new places had to remove the old. But I guess you were a FR designer in this era, so maybe have to defend it? "Thomas M. Costa was a regular contributor to and game designer for the Forgotten Realms from 1998 through 2008"
Well, at least you weren't responsible for World of Thaycraft.
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| TomCosta |
Posted - 13 May 2020 : 16:47:46
I like my Realms more fleshed out, so I prefer 3E Sembia to the extent it was fleshed out. That said, I'm fine (to the extent I am fine with what happened in 4E) with Shade taking over Sembia. Makes sense. They had money, were strategically placed, and manipulatable. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 13 May 2020 : 12:44:25
4e Sembia is literally one of my favorite corners of the world. I pitched a game about a new chapter of Harpers opening up there to try and drive the Netherese out of Saerloon and my friend liked it so much she took it and is running it for her group. YMMV. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 May 2020 : 11:46:08
I've never understood the Shade/Sembia thing. I personally don't see any reason why the Shades would have taken over the country. I can see trying to influence things, certainly, but open conquest of a nation far from their self-proclaimed borders? No, it seems like it's just more of the "Shadows are kewl, so let's put Shades EVERYWHERE!" thing that WotC had going on.
2E Sembia for me. |
| Harksen |
Posted - 13 May 2020 : 10:02:55
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
So to me, 2nd Edition Sembia was great, I loved Saerloon in particular from Forgotten Realms Adventures and from the Jeff Grubb Comic book series that went there.
I hated that the Shade / Netheril took it over, just like I hated Thay as a Lich Kingdom instead of a mageocracy under all the Zulkirs. I like my Sembia as a greedy merchant-run kingdom that hires mercaneries to handle all of its wars. And it looks like the 5edition Sembia is finally back to that basic set up, minus Daerlun and Ordulin?
God I wish they had just reboot the whole thing to the 1350s era.
Yeah, I would prefer such a reboot too. Of course, my preference for 1e & 2e FR is no doubt caused by the fact that I started playing in the Realms when the Realms was changing from 1e to 2e (The whole Avatar debacle). A few years ago And to me Thay is still a mageocracy and Sembia ruled by powerhungry, greedy merchants etc.
So, to the original question, I definetely prefer Sembia in the 2e dressings |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 07:55:54
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Sembia was left blank in 1e for the DMs to build out as they saw fit. To me, if I wanted to play in a place that I created, I'd stay out of the Realms and just have my own world.
So to me, 2nd Edition Sembia was great, I loved Saerloon in particular from Forgotten Realms Adventures and from the Jeff Grubb Comic book series that went there.
And infiltrated by the Cult of the Dragon (explicitly) and the drow interests (for most part implicitly, but rather obviously). Who probably did each other in behind the curtains all the time.
quote:
I hated that the Shade / Netheril took it over, just like I hated Thay as a Lich Kingdom instead of a mageocracy under all the Zulkirs.
RSE are RSE.  And then the Elfin' Crusade. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 22:19:51
Sembia was left blank in 1e for the DMs to build out as they saw fit. To me, if I wanted to play in a place that I created, I'd stay out of the Realms and just have my own world.
So to me, 2nd Edition Sembia was great, I loved Saerloon in particular from Forgotten Realms Adventures and from the Jeff Grubb Comic book series that went there.
I hated that the Shade / Netheril took it over, just like I hated Thay as a Lich Kingdom instead of a mageocracy under all the Zulkirs. I like my Sembia as a greedy merchant-run kingdom that hires mercaneries to handle all of its wars. And it looks like the 5edition Sembia is finally back to that basic set up, minus Daerlun and Ordulin?
God I wish they had just reboot the whole thing to the 1350s era. |
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